Unreleased and New Card Discussion


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Airi
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Post by Airi » 1 year ago

Stapler wrote:
1 year ago
Marath in particular seems completely nuts.
It's actually not super great in Marath, as most times you want to do be activating it in instances of 1, rather than removing more counters in a single instance to avoid getting countered and losing multiple +1/+1 counters in a single go.
RGW Marath [PR] |WUBRG Jodah | WUBRG Najeela | GB Dina
WBG Tayam | BGU Otrimi the Ever-Cute | UW Yorion | RW Zirda | UR Veyran

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Stapler
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Post by Stapler » 1 year ago

Airi wrote:
1 year ago
Stapler wrote:
1 year ago
Marath in particular seems completely nuts.
It's actually not super great in Marath, as most times you want to do be activating it in instances of 1, rather than removing more counters in a single instance to avoid getting countered and losing multiple +1/+1 counters in a single go.
Yeah, thinking about it more he's definitely not the best to pair with Zirda, especially since you lose out on a lot of token and +1/+1 counter synergy cards. If you're building Marath less as a combo/synergy engine and more as a constant source of damage, counters, and tokens, Zirda seems like she can help reduce those costs while also enabling other synergies in the deck.
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darrenhabib
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Post by darrenhabib » 1 year ago

Emergent Ultimatum piles might include two card combos and Demonic Tutor.

Thassa's Oracle, Tainted Pact, Demonic Tutor.
Opponent needs to shuffle away Thassa's Oracle back into library, and then you Demonic Tutor for it.
Tainted Pact then gets Demonic Consultation.
You need to realistically wait a turn as Emergent Ultimatum costs 7 mana and you need to cast Thassa's Oracle and Demonic Consultation.
But these are cards you'd already play in a super competitive build. Would I play this in cEDH however? Probably not.

Another pile; Demonic Tutor, Omniscience, Enter the Infinite.



Song of Creation looks like an amazing card to build around. Playing the additional land just means that in a super cost efficient deck, you are going to get so much use out of it.
It just one of those decks where Underworld Breach shines as you are very likely to dig into it over a number of turns with Song of Creation in play, and then having to discard your hand, means you have access to those cards again.

Temur is not know for its ability to search for enchantments, so unfortunately you have to luck games to draw into it.
Hmm unless its one of the few permanent cards in a Illuna, Apex of Wishes deck...

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Post by toctheyounger » 1 year ago

Well, if you were ever going to do a theme deck around Sauron from Middle Earth lore, Fire Prophecy is a must.

That's all. Everything else is too much to digest for me at the moment, with C20 and Ikoria dropping on top of one another. Plus I'm rereading Tolkien atm. Boromir is about to eat it.
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DirkGently
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Post by DirkGently » 1 year ago

darrenhabib wrote: But of note, if you have any mana creature like a Birds of Paradise (just need to attack with the Bird initially), you can get infinite mana in your combat phase.
It's even better than that - with infinite mana you can eventually stop using zegantha to activate najeela, just use the floating birds mana. leaving everyone untapped. Then you can do another attack step and do the same thing, going infinite so long as zegantha and birds can attack safely.

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Post by Wallycaine » 1 year ago

DirkGently wrote:
1 year ago
darrenhabib wrote: But of note, if you have any mana creature like a Birds of Paradise (just need to attack with the Bird initially), you can get infinite mana in your combat phase.
It's even better than that - with infinite mana you can eventually stop using zegantha to activate najeela, just use the floating birds mana. leaving everyone untapped. Then you can do another attack step and do the same thing, going infinite so long as zegantha and birds can attack safely.
The mana empties between phases, so you'd still need another wubrg to restart the combo, so you're not actually getting anything "extra" out of the combo.

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DirkGently
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Post by DirkGently » 1 year ago

Wallycaine wrote:
1 year ago
The mana empties between phases, so you'd still need another wubrg to restart the combo, so you're not actually getting anything "extra" out of the combo.
I didn't say you get extra mana afterwards. My point is that, with zegantha only, you get unlimited attack steps but zegantha remains tapped and, after the next swing, all your non-vigilant creatures will be tapped. With BoP you get unlimited USEFUL attack steps since you can keep untapping everything as well.

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Post by Wallycaine » 1 year ago

DirkGently wrote:
1 year ago
Wallycaine wrote:
1 year ago
The mana empties between phases, so you'd still need another wubrg to restart the combo, so you're not actually getting anything "extra" out of the combo.
I didn't say you get extra mana afterwards. My point is that, with zegantha only, you get unlimited attack steps but zegantha remains tapped and, after the next swing, all your non-vigilant creatures will be tapped. With BoP you get unlimited USEFUL attack steps since you can keep untapping everything as well.
...But you can't, because you still only have that infinite mana from BoP during the first attack step, and thus can't untap anything in later attack steps.

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DirkGently
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Post by DirkGently » 1 year ago

Wallycaine wrote:
1 year ago
...But you can't, because you still only have that infinite mana from BoP during the first attack step, and thus can't untap anything in later attack steps.
Derp, you're right. For some reason I forgot about the initial 5 you need to sink in to get the combo going again.

It does work with something like, say, argothian elder since you can "store" the mana. But fireslinger is definitely the easiest way to win.

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Post by TheAmericanSpirit » 1 year ago

Friends, I was cool with Song Of Creation's design until I saw Whirlwind of Thought. Now I'm wondering why the RUG got the shortest end of the drawback stick while Jeskai once again floats away on clouds of unfettered value. I admit, I'm salty as hell.

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Post by MeowZeDung » 1 year ago



...

*roars triumphantly in jeskai*

Better Jhoira, Weatherlight Captain is pretty dang spiffy.

It's not an auto include in every jeskai deck, but it's close to it along with jeskai ascendancy.

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Post by BeneTleilax » 1 year ago

Temur is twice the draw and triggers off creatures though. Also, you only discard at your own end step, so you can rack up a ton of value off instants and flash dudes.

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Post by Kavu Enthusiast » 1 year ago

BeneTleilax wrote:
1 year ago
Najeela already combos with a stiff breeze.
I mean....that' describes just about most cEDH decks. Kinda what they all sign up for when playing the EDH version of 'well I'll just put 4 Sol Rings and 4 Demonic Tutors and 4....because technically there's no banned or restricted list in casual' 60 card casual.

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Post by Kavu Enthusiast » 1 year ago

TheAmericanSpirit wrote:
1 year ago
Friends, I was cool with Song Of Creation's design until I saw Whirlwind of Thought. Now I'm wondering why the RUG got the shortest end of the drawback stick while Jeskai once again floats away on clouds of unfettered value. I admit, I'm salty as hell.
IDK I think it fits with their colors well. The RUG's enchantment is massively more powerful in its actual effects but isn't built for long term planning. It's explosive and grows out of control, then once its time of bloom is over, recedes. It's *very* G/R at the least. It's about exploding suddenly and burning out fast if you fail.

RWU on the other hand gets an effect that is strong, but less over the top and meant for building up and advantage over the long term with planning and thought. Very those colors, It's about building steadily and diligently.

I do note that both enchantments are not may triggers. Obviously there are ways for that to not be an issue, but it feels like a deliberate choice WotC has been doing with powerful permanent draw triggers to put at least a small limit that has to be worked around; for awhile they seemed to have just decided forced draw triggers were lame and they should almost always be a objectively more powerful and less risky 'may' trigger, but I'm seeing less 'may' triggers on some of the more powerful draw effects recently.
Last edited by Kavu Enthusiast 1 year ago, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Kavu Enthusiast » 1 year ago

darrenhabib wrote:
1 year ago
Emergent Ultimatum piles might include two card combos and Demonic Tutor.

Thassa's Oracle, Tainted Pact, Demonic Tutor.
Opponent needs to shuffle away Thassa's Oracle back into library, and then you Demonic Tutor for it.
Tainted Pact then gets Demonic Consultation.
You need to realistically wait a turn as Emergent Ultimatum costs 7 mana and you need to cast Thassa's Oracle and Demonic Consultation.
But these are cards you'd already play in a super competitive build. Would I play this in cEDH however? Probably not.

Another pile; Demonic Tutor, Omniscience, Enter the Infinite.
Huh, it's almost like that format is easily broken and degenerate or something.

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Post by tstorm823 » 1 year ago

Kavu Enthusiast wrote:
1 year ago
I do not that both enchantments are not may triggers. Obviously there are ways for that to not be an issue, but it feels like a deliberate choice WotC has been doing with powerful permanent draw triggers to put at least a small limit that has to be worked around; for awhile they seemed to have just decided forced draw triggers were lame and they should almost always be a objectively more powerful and less risky 'may' trigger, but I'm seeing less 'may' triggers on some of the more powerful draw effects recently.
I'm a fan. Ever since I took out the draw doublers from Zedruu, I haven't had to do the "donate this sweet card away before it kills me" trick, and I'm excited to potentially have that situation come up again.
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Post by ilovesaprolings » 1 year ago

Just a funny thought experiment: can someone make a broken game winning pile with emergent ultimatum without using blue cards?

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Post by Rumpy5897 » 1 year ago

ilovesaprolings wrote:
1 year ago
Just a funny thought experiment: can someone make a broken game winning pile with emergent ultimatum without using blue cards?
Insert Kiki combo plus Tooth and Nail, cast with two mana up.

The Jeskai ultimatum feels weirdly lacking in comparison to the other ones. Interesting what the design rationale behind that was.
 
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DirkGently
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Post by DirkGently » 1 year ago

ilovesaprolings wrote:
1 year ago
Just a funny thought experiment: can someone make a broken game winning pile with emergent ultimatum without using blue cards?
Tons of value? yes. Please god let me die? not really. Blue is the king of the unpleasant haymakers.

Are we allowed to use boros cards?
Rumpy5897 wrote:
1 year ago
The Jeskai ultimatum feels weirdly lacking in comparison to the other ones. Interesting what the design rationale behind that was.
Whoa, wtf. The Jeskai one looks awful. And by awful I mean "actually a reasonable payoff for the cost but not WTF IS THIS CRAP good", so it probably won't get played.

After the other ones, I really do not mind. Anything is better than more EUs.

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Post by pokken » 1 year ago

ilovesaprolings wrote:
1 year ago
Just a funny thought experiment: can someone make a broken game winning pile with emergent ultimatum without using blue cards?
I do not think there are any lines that win the game without extra mana without using blue cards.

Mostly you can't do the 'two recursion and a game winner' effect, and can't recast emergent ultimatum since it exiles.

If there is anything it's probably pretty convoluted.

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Post by ilovesaprolings » 1 year ago

DirkGently wrote:
1 year ago

Are we allowed to use boros cards?
Yeah, why not?

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Post by folding_music » 1 year ago

Splendid Ultimatum seems like they ran out of ideas and were completing the cycle out of obligation but I'm happier with that than with Triple Tutor From Hell!

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DirkGently
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Post by DirkGently » 1 year ago

ilovesaprolings wrote:
1 year ago
DirkGently wrote:
1 year ago

Are we allowed to use boros cards?
Yeah, why not?
Hmm, in that case I'm thinking something like decree of annihilation + 2 bombs that combo win somehow. They either leave you with a bomb on an uncontested field, or a combo win right away.

Having a hard time finding a combo win with 2 bombs, though. Craterhoof + that sorcery that gives tokens = life total maybe?

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Post by Kavu Enthusiast » 1 year ago

DirkGently wrote:
1 year ago
Rumpy5897 wrote:
1 year ago
The Jeskai ultimatum feels weirdly lacking in comparison to the other ones. Interesting what the design rationale behind that was.
Whoa, wtf. The Jeskai one looks awful. And by awful I mean "actually a reasonable payoff for the cost but not WTF IS THIS CRAP good", so it probably won't get played.

After the other ones, I really do not mind. Anything is better than more EUs.
See the weirdest part is how this ultimatum follows the old semi-template from the previous ultimatum cycle, and the others threw that out the window. Like, what happened? Did they design this, go 'wow that's just not good enough, we need to redesign the wheel on the rest of them', proceed to explore completely different design space on each of the other ones and then never come back to this or something?

I agree given how over powered the rest of them are this seems more in line with the previous cycle. Personally I think if it were an instant that would be enough, that would validate the overall lower impact on the game you are getting at that cmc relative to the rest. It's not like these should all be on that level, but it would have been nice if all of the card's three effects were equally exciting. Drawing 5 cards for 7 at sorcery speed is nice, getting to do 5 damage as you please in addition to that is an ok bonus, but gaining 5 life one time is basically nothing in comparison.

This ultimatum feels like the guy from back when they were designing the original cycle of "3 of something for 1 cmc" cycle back in Alpha (before any of them really knew what effects were more or less valuable in the game as it would come to be) was allowed come out of their cave to design this card and they still look at drawing cards, gaining life and dealing damage and think "these are the same, drawing 5 cards is the same as dealing 5 damage is the same as gaining 5 life". Which, you know, I thought was a lesson WotC had learned some years ago is not the case.

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