Unreleased and New Card Discussion

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Airi
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Post by Airi » 1 year ago

BeneTleilax wrote:
1 year ago
It just says cast, so I'd assume alternate casting costs (as opposed to additional costs like kicker) would work with it. That said, please don't run it. It's an obnoxious piece of cardboard that I really don't want to see normalized in casual play. Lutri the thing.
I don't really think it's any worse to see than Intuition, but that's just me personally. If I can make it work, I'll probably run it. If not, then meh.
Krishnath wrote:
1 year ago
It may not allow mutate, but it allows you to get *any* three spells with different names, although your opponent gets to select which of the three you get to play. If you pick the right three, the game is pretty much over. Say, if you got Enter the Infinite, Jace, Architect of Thought, and Doubling Season. No matter which of the three they select to get shuffled into the library, you win.
I uh.... think you're severely overestimating the power level options I'm going to have access to in the deck I have in mind. It will probably not be an "I win" card for my purposes. It's good, I just don't know that it'll be pubstomp (I don't really think it's a particularly competitively good card) levels of good for what I'm going for.

Sorry, I didn't really mean to sound like I was commenting on it's broader usability in my original post. Just kind of musing over whether or not it's worth it for the Sultei deck I have in mind.
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Post by pokken » 1 year ago

DirkGently wrote:
1 year ago
As nice as that would be, this isn't the kind of card that people are going to restrain themselves from using, in my experience.
People have been restraining themselves from T&N'ing for years so I see no reason to think they will suddenly start jamming enter the infinite combos off this in serious numbers. There are several lines of Tooth & Nail that are removal resilient nowadays, and yeah it costs more but it's also available in a huge variety more decks.

I share your hatred of things that win on the stack and I wish they would stop printing them, I just don't get that excited about it because there're so many of them and the difference between 7 and 10 mana or whatever doesn't make that much difference to me personally.

As @Airi said intuition already does this with a variety of lines and is far more resilient to countermagic blowouts and draw fewer bricks.

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Post by BeneTleilax » 1 year ago

Airi wrote:
1 year ago
I don't really think it's any worse to see than Intuition, but that's just me personally. If I can make it work, I'll probably run it. If not, then meh.
This ends games on the stack. With Intuition, you at least have to pay for what you tutor, and typically show the opponents what you're up to before you end up casting it. Even if you don't use Emergent to oops the game with no setup or deckbuilding ingenuity, that will be its primary use. It will subtly warp deckbuilding towards its own abuse, in the same way Paradox Engine did, even if you didn't initially include it to abuse it. Even if it doesn't, thr more people use it for casual decks, the messier a necessary ban becomes. And not just at an RC level either; the more people claim that "oh I'm not using this to be toxic", the muddier the waters are at individual stores, when a group of players gets sick of this bastard child of the worst of tutors and free spells.
pokken wrote:
1 year ago
It's weaker than tooth and nail as well.
T&N is more expensive and limited to creatures, as Dirk said, so I'm not sure that this is weaker. Even if it was, I'm not just measuring things in terms of power, but in terms of how interesting they are to play against. In casual, I've seen a lot of people use T&N to find cute two+ card combos they discovered themselves while derping around on Gatherer. Yeah, they're a quick win, but at least people tend to put deckbuilding effort and some creativity behind them. I wouldn't want to play against them every game, but when they come up, it's cool to see what the combo does. Because this allows an opponent to chose the cards, it punishes synergies and interesting combos, in favor of just jamming a few other setup-agnostic, boring win conditions, the less interactive, the better.

Furthermore, this isn't the sort of card that the casual EDH community is good about restraint with. It's splashy, expensive and rare. It has a minigame in it. It's probably unplayable in anything except casual EDH. It doesn't intrinsically deny anyone resources. It's casual-shaped. This is the reason why tables who would never allow mass land destruction or Flash are a-ok with Golos Stuff, even if the latter is objectively stronger and less pleasant to share a table with. At some point "casual" stopped being a table social contract, and became a set of loose heuristics that decks must box-check. Cards like this, which are obviously printed for casual EDH, at once reinforce this line of thinking and exploit it.

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Post by Serenade » 1 year ago

Ick, they gave Heartless Act a cool border.
Mirri, Cat Warrior counts as a Cat Warrior.

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Post by UnfulfilledDesires » 1 year ago

I guess I might as well use Kaheera, the Orphanguard with my creaturelelss Estrid, the Masked deck. This will provide an emergency blocker & make Earthcraft less of a dead card on its own. The vigilance is even relevant thanks to Stasis. Sweet. (Eli Shiffrin just confirmed that this is indeed how Kaheera works.)

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Post by Krishnath » 1 year ago

Airi wrote:
1 year ago
I uh.... think you're severely overestimating the power level options I'm going to have access to in the deck I have in mind. It will probably not be an "I win" card for my purposes. It's good, I just don't know that it'll be pubstomp (I don't really think it's a particularly competitively good card) levels of good for what I'm going for.

Sorry, I didn't really mean to sound like I was commenting on it's broader usability in my original post. Just kind of musing over whether or not it's worth it for the Sultei deck I have in mind.
To be entirely honest, if the article hadn't pointed out the stupidly busted plays one can do with the card, I probably wouldn't have realized just stupidly overpowered it is, in the right deck or with the right selection of cards. I fully expect it to be used more often to collect a few powerful creatures or enchantments rather than combo pieces, all in the name of fun. But then again I am more of a Timmy than a Johnny. Sure, combos can be fun, but it is more fun to play stupid weird decks. >.<
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Post by pokken » 1 year ago

I just don't see emergent ultimatum as doing much more than finding 3 pieces of goodstuff most of the time. The people using it for jace/architect/doubling season are already gonna have 9 tutors for jace+doubling season so this feels not that bad to me.

I do dislike that it's another must-counter sorcery that can win on the stack.

Yeah, BUG is the strongest color combo but it's also rather uncommon in my experience with casuals. There were *way* more paradox engine decks than there are gonna be seriously warped emergent ultimatum decks.

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Post by BeneTleilax » 1 year ago

BUG is pretty common in my experience, as the acknowledged best tricolor, with a ton of powerful generals, and a long history of pseudo-casual nonsense for pubstompers(hello Leovold). I see this as like Pengine, in that people will initially use it as a value play, then slowly gravitate towards cheap wins they found online. It's going to pull people towards other lazy wincons, even if they didn't have them already, in the same way Pengine made people consider scepter-untap loops anew. It won't be as played as Pengine, but it will be worse in every regard when it does come up. I would rather see Doomsday at my casual tables than this, because Doomsday at least requires some deckbuilding and skill to use.

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Post by Kavu Enthusiast » 1 year ago

I'm not sure how any of the ultimatums are going to be strong than Eerie Ultimatum and I'm not sure I want them to be. That card is just bonkers strong in EDH; it will just flip the vast majority of graveyards into play for 7 cmc. I somewhat agree that the reason the BUG ultimatum isn't as insane isn't that it's not powerful and capable of winning games....it's just that 'over power efficient tutor' is a crowded field in BUG and it's not necessarily going to out compete the pile they get to choose from.

The two ultimatums so far though just really make me want for WotC to finally decide to go back to Alara so we can see what a updated power level ultimatum for the ally shards looks like.

Also, IDK if I am ever personally going to end up playing the card in one of my EDH decks(it's honestly something I'd be more apt to play in a 60 card combo deck and none of my EDH decks in those colors really mesh with it anyway), but dear god the art on Song of Creation is just...*chef hand kiss* so %$#% good.

And finally, someone has been sneaking reads on my mental diary because 'Jeskai Narset walker' is probably scrawled in the margins on most pages. I'm pretty sure I've come to the conclusion that she's one of my favorite characters from Magic, walker or otherwise, in several years; she might be in competition for 'best girl' with Xantcha honestly.

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Post by DirkGently » 1 year ago

Kavu Enthusiast wrote:
1 year ago
The two ultimatums so far though just really make me want for WotC to finally decide to go back to Alara so we can see what a updated power level ultimatum for the ally shards looks like.
Please god no.

We're 2 deep into the ultimatum cycle and I'm already planning to zerg rush anybody playing wedge colors.

To compare EU to other efficient tutors is missing the point. Are there other, more efficient wins? Sure. EU takes a bunch of semi-acceptable huge bombs, reduces their cost, and multiplies them by 2. Demonic gives you great consistency but it doesn't cheat costs, nor does intuition. This is a completely different ball game. Other efficient tutor combo wins require you to acknowledge that you're playing cEDH-level wincons. For this you can play "the big dumb stuff edh is all about!" it just weaponizes it to miserable effect.

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Post by DirkGently » 1 year ago

BeneTleilax wrote:
1 year ago
At some point "casual" stopped being a table social contract, and became a set of loose heuristics that decks must box-check.
I'm stealing this line to win an argument later. Not apologizing.

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Post by pokken » 1 year ago

BeneTleilax wrote:
1 year ago
BUG is pretty common in my experience, as the acknowledged best tricolor, with a ton of powerful generals, and a long history of pseudo-casual nonsense for pubstompers(hello Leovold). I see this as like Pengine, in that people will initially use it as a value play, then slowly gravitate towards cheap wins they found online. It's going to pull people towards other lazy wincons, even if they didn't have them already, in the same way Pengine made people consider scepter-untap loops anew. It won't be as played as Pengine, but it will be worse in every regard when it does come up. I would rather see Doomsday at my casual tables than this, because Doomsday at least requires some deckbuilding and skill to use.
Like sure, BUG is common as far as 3-color combinations go. My last 10 games one bug player though (muldrotha player who never got going), so like...not that common as far as representation of decks go.

It'll never reach P-engine ubiquity; there were bajillions of generals in almost every color combo that wanted PE.

I remember feeling this same way about torment of hailfire (which I still think will be worse than this card since it has almost no deckbuilding issues) and I wound up being pretty wrong about that in the end. I remain unconvinced that it's a healthy type of design -- "Make lots of mana cast sorcery bomb win the game" but most people kinda swing away from it after a while.
DirkGently wrote:
1 year ago
BeneTleilax wrote:
1 year ago
At some point "casual" stopped being a table social contract, and became a set of loose heuristics that decks must box-check.
I'm stealing this line to win an argument later. Not apologizing.
It's a well designed piece of rhetoric but I'm not really convinced it's true. The casual gestalt mind has changed *so much* since I started playing, and I've watched the smaller mind within each store through many phases of evolution as well.

I don't think that we're at the point where playing this card with enter the infinite combo is going to stay acceptable to people for that long anymore.
Last edited by pokken 1 year ago, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Krishnath » 1 year ago

pokken wrote:
1 year ago
I remember feeling this same way about torment of hailfire (which I still think will be worse than this card since it has almost no deckbuilding issues) and I wound up being pretty wrong about that in the end. I remain unconvinced that it's a healthy type of design -- "Make lots of mana cast sorcery bomb win the game" but most people kinda swing away from it after a while.
That is because people realize after playing that kind of deck a couple of times that other players find them incredibly unfun and start ganging up on the player that plays them. It basically sorts itself out right quickly.
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Post by Rumpy5897 » 1 year ago

What a day for cardboards! Ruinous Ultimatum makes me long for Cyclonic Rift.

At least the spoiler season lull was broken. That's something, I guess? :P
 
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Post by BeneTleilax » 1 year ago

Rumpy5897 wrote:
1 year ago
What a day for cardboards! Ruinous Ultimatum makes me long for Cyclonic Rift.

At least the spoiler season lull was broken. That's something, I guess? :P
Ruinous is a big plague wind. It goes with Eerie in the "strong, but not an abomination" pile for me. The decks that it's probably going to be strongest in, at least in casual, are Mardu combat, which I think needs a few "strong, but not an abomination" cards.

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Post by pokken » 1 year ago

Mardu is so dang bad they could give their ultimatum win the game if you control a creature, and I'm not sure I would care.

(the exception to that being of course that there're so many 4 and 5c decks these days, bleh): )

As it is cyc rift is way worse for me, instant speed and useful mode for the same mana - not destroys, but beats indestructible so might as well be the same

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Post by folding_music » 1 year ago

did the old Ultimatums have fans? I was under the impression the Grixis one got played in slow standard control games and people dreaded seeing it, and the other four weren't particularly worth their casting cost. this new breed is incredibly pushed and destructive...
also, when they printed the Alara ones, Fires of Invention didn't exist, lol

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Post by TheAmericanSpirit » 1 year ago

I dunno about the ultimatums. I'm entrenched enough to remember many moons of spoiler season doomsaying and I've seen Time Spiral do dirtier things than most men can imagine. Their power may be being overblown. The flip side is that 7+ cmc spells should win you the game, right? Or at least get you damn near close? Otherwise, what are we paying for? It's lazy design, but nothing novel in its villainy.

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Post by Couver » 1 year ago

The Mardu and Abzan ultimatums are at least vulnerable to being countered. So is Sultai but it has the benefit of being in colours that can protect it and see it successfully executed.
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Post by Hawk » 1 year ago

Kaheera is the first Companion of real interest - she'd be playable in the 99 of Mirri, Weatherlight Duelist but I'm also 99% sure the deck needs to make zero or close to zero changes to just run her in the Companion slot instead. Although question - how do changelings like Mirror Entity interact with Kaheera? Is Kaheera looking at the typeline, or the textbox? Does changeling work during deckbuilding? I dig we have to ask these questions now.

The ultimatums are...blah. I guess I hate that this is the era of "designed for commander"; the old ultimatums range from "cute" to "wildly unplayable" in EDH, wheras these first two we've seen are borderline must-plays in their colors. Both are also easily breakable; as discussed you CAN use Emergent Ultimatum "Fairly" to just go find three 8+-drops for a massive tempo play, as one might use Tooth and Nail "fairly"...but most everyone is going to use it to go find some gross combo instead. And unless you are playing Sultai Primal Surge or Mimeo-reanimator, there is very little reason not to run it as it is going to always be great, and often win on the spot. Ditto Eerie Ultimatum - backbreaking by default in any deck that runs permanents, and lots of combo potential since it recurs lands untapped. It's bizarre to me that Ruinous Ultimatum is probably the LEAST offensive of them so far, since we already have to play around Cyclonic Rift, In Garruk's Wake, and a variety of boardwipes where the deck is designed to break the symmetry.

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Post by WizardMN » 1 year ago

BeneTleilax wrote:
1 year ago
Rumpy5897 wrote:
1 year ago
What a day for cardboards! Ruinous Ultimatum makes me long for Cyclonic Rift.

At least the spoiler season lull was broken. That's something, I guess? :P
Ruinous is a big plague wind. It goes with Eerie in the "strong, but not an abomination" pile for me. The decks that it's probably going to be strongest in, at least in casual, are Mardu combat, which I think needs a few "strong, but not an abomination" cards.
pokken wrote:
1 year ago
Mardu is so dang bad they could give their ultimatum win the game if you control a creature, and I'm not sure I would care.

(the exception to that being of course that there're so many 4 and 5c decks these days, bleh): )

As it is cyc rift is way worse for me, instant speed and useful mode for the same mana - not destroys, but beats indestructible so might as well be the same
With this new Ultimatum and mythos of snapdax, I am almost certainly going to put together Queen Marchesa again. I liked that deck and I think these would be great additions to her. I am really liking the Mardu design here.

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Post by SocorroTortoise » 1 year ago

Cruel Ultimatum, Violent Ultimatum, and Titanic Ultimatum all saw some occasional EDH play. I don't think I've seen anything but Cruel in quite a while and that's more nostalgia than anything else. Brilliant Ultimatum was a little too unreliable even for EDH back in the day and Clarion Ultimatum just didn't work well with the format.

I think the new Ultimatums are fine. Spending 7 colored mana at sorcery speed should have significant impact. I don't think they're auto-includes in their respective colors by any means despite the power level, because that casting cost is going to be difficult even with a good manabase. They're a little more problematic if you cheat the costs, which is true of an enormous number of cards.
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Post by BeneTleilax » 1 year ago

Seven mana should get you ahead a good amount; stuff like Sheoldred, Consecrated Sphinx and Platinum Angel set the bar here for me. Seven isn't even hard with a slightly rampy deck. Single card wins on the stack are dull and toxic no matter how much they cost. Time Spiral shenigans, Doomsday shenigans, those are ultimately more efficient and powerful, but they make no pretense of being casual, and demand some skill in both build and execution to pull off. Ermagerd Ultimatum just asks if anyone has a counterspell handy, if not, it vomits out the most annoying big spells that player could find for free, and then tells the player to go pick up more self-enclosed wincons.

Self-enclosed is the key phrase for me. If Karador wins off Eerie, or Edgar wins off Ruinous, they spent some of the game building up their battlefield or graveyard, presumably pushing through all the interaction towards those zones. That feels like an earned win. Even if the storm dude executes some crazy chain of plays straight from their hand, they had to defend themselves from attack, sculpt their hand, and execute a complex and risky sequence. Winning off this is going to look like "huh, looks like I ran fixing in a 3 color deck and topdecked this, herpaderp GG". No establishing a board, no deckbuilding challenge (other than "include a couple other cheap wins"), no synergies paying off.

This also makes it harder for the politics of multiplayer to evaluate it. If I'm voltroning up a huge Korvold, or someone's spewing a bunch of 5/5s every turn, the table knows to point some removal and/or attackers thataways. Even Torment of Hailfire, which I don't run anywhere for similar reasons, at least needs you to build double-digit mana production if you want to use it as anything more than a mediocre Death Cloud. This presents next to no tell (because again, seven mana with a lot of color is only signals "yes, I am playing green") until it fires, and once it does only counterspells can deal with it. So it is more exempt from the balancing effects of politics than other splashy wins, yet it's going to be harder than Torment to houserule against, because as has been said, it looks casual.
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Post by ilovesaprolings » 1 year ago

Naya ultimatum had the ideal powerlevel imho. Instant win in the right deck and with some board advantage, but not an autoinclude
The other 4 alara ultimates were really weak
These ones looks... a little broken

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Post by Mookie » 1 year ago

New Ultimatums looks absurd. It may be the case that they're on par with Cruel Ultimatum in 1v1, but they look to scale significantly better in multiplayer. I'm going to expect to see them a lot, and groan every time they show up. They're certainly expensive and hard to cast, but also very much worth the cost (unlike Clarion Ultimatum).

Ruinous Ultimatum is Cyclonic Rift v2. One-sided Planar Cleansing is very, very strong. It also makes Violent Ultimatum look sad. Not a direct comparison due to being sorcery speed, but certainly comparable.

Eerie Ultimatum is a crazy mass reanimation spell that also hits noncreatures and lands.

Emergent Ultimatum is Gifts Ungiven, minus the unchosen cards going into the graveyard, plus free casting (which I suspect is very much worth the tradeoff).

As for other stuff....

Kaheera, the Orphanguard looks like a snap include for Arahbo, Roar of the World decks. May also be in consideration for some Gishath, Sun's Avatar decks. I'm not familiar enough with those decklists to know how many off-tribe creatures they typically run, but I assume it to not be that many. I don't see lords / anthem effects that often in EDH, but if it doesn't take a deck slot, it's a lot easier to justify.

Narset of the Ancient Way is mostly worth noting due to the relatively quick ultimate - play her turn 3 off a mana rock, ultimate on turn 5. As ultimates go, it looks to be relatively low-impact, but still pretty nasty for decks running small creatures.

Song of Creation looks super sweet. Very significant downside, but 'when you cast a spell, draw two cards' is an extremely powerful line of text. Seems intriguing for Temur Storm decks, but may also be worth consideration elsewhere.

Jegantha, the Wellspring is intriguing. Five-color has a deep enough card pool that I suspect building around the restriction to be relatively easy, but there are certainly concessions that would need to be made to it. Slightly awkward in that it can't pay generic mana costs - great for casting charms, but feels like a lot of the mana would be wasted unless you're specifically running WUBRG costs.

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