Unreleased and New Card Discussion

Wallycaine
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Post by Wallycaine » 1 year ago

UnNamed1 wrote:
1 year ago
DirkGently wrote:
1 year ago
Best use of Jegantha uses I can see are:

najeela, the blade-blossom. infinite combat steps. Yikes. That seems potentially pretty busted. At least you have to put your cards on the table right away.
How does this go infinite? Najeela untaps creatures that are attacking, Jegantha has to tap to make the mana, not attack. Unless I am missing something, this doesn't work.
There's a couple ways to get there, but it all requires a 3rd step, such as granting Jegantha vigilance. Ahh, I see. But as noted, doesn't do anything without something else tapping for profit, or vigilance.

Also an amusing note: going infinite with Freed From The Real doesn't get there, because the blue is consumed in untapping, so you only end up with infinite WBRG. You can probably still so some stuff with that, but it's hard to find repeatable abilities that don't require some generic.

UnNamed1
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Post by UnNamed1 » 1 year ago

DirkGently wrote:
1 year ago
UnNamed1 wrote:
1 year ago
How does this go infinite? Najeela untaps creatures that are attacking, Jegantha has to tap to make the mana, not attack. Unless I am missing something, this doesn't work.
Use Najeela's ability to untap it for wubrg. Then, while it's still attacking, tap untap tap untap etc.

Mind you, unlimited attack steps doesn't do anything without vigilance or some other tricks.
That makes a lot more sense, so rather than a 2 card combo, it is more like a 3 or 4 card combo. Not nearly as scary as some other cards.

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Post by BeneTleilax » 1 year ago

Well, Eerie Ultimatum goes into every Abzan deck that cares slightly about the graveyard. It even brings lands in untapped. Hope I can pick it up at a decent price for Nethoi.

Emergent Ultimatum pulling two boring wincon spells is a boring wincon spell. I doubt I will ever see this used except for Expropriate, Hoof and Time Stretch, or some equally dull pile. The "opponent chooses" in theory makes an interesting minigame, in practice, it punishes any sort of synergy or thought, in favor of self-enclosed "oops I win" spells.
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Airi
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Post by Airi » 1 year ago

I don't know if Emergent Ultimatum is worth it in Otrimi. Probably? But also, it's a super late tutor.
RGW Marath [PR] |WUBRG Jodah | WUBRG Najeela | GB Dina
WBG Tayam | BGU Otrimi the Ever-Cute | UW Yorion | RW Zirda | UR Veyran

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DirkGently
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Post by DirkGently » 1 year ago

UnNamed1 wrote:
1 year ago
That makes a lot more sense, so rather than a 2 card combo, it is more like a 3 or 4 card combo. Not nearly as scary as some other cards.
I mean all you need is a goblin fireslinger to win the game. It's 3 cards but 2 of them are in the CZ and the third is (pick one of countless options).

That said, Najeela was always a miserable commander that demands to be priced out of the game before you've even sat down in your chair. So having another reason to hate her doesn't make much difference.

Speaking of hate, I hate this new cycle of ultimatums already. I knew I would, and I do. The sultai one sounds super fun. "I search for omniscience, expropriate, and enter the infinite" Gee what fun we're having. The only play that doesn't instantly lose the game is giving someone omniscience and expropriate for 7 mana. You know it's good when you're HOPING they pick jin gitaxias, core augur since at least you can kill him.

Abzan one is less oh-god-oh-god-I-hate-it but it's still "put graveyard into play" for 7 mana.

baaaaaaaarf.

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FoxOfWar
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Post by FoxOfWar » 1 year ago

My first thought upon reading these two ultimatums "Yup, that's borked."

I am open to being convinced otherwise, but 'oops, I win' isn't terribly engaging, no matter how tricky the mana cost.

Song of Creation seems pretty fun tho. Fair amount of power, but a drawback you have to at least somewhat build around.
Last edited by FoxOfWar 1 year ago, edited 1 time in total.
36 decks or so...
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Hope of Ghirapur Swordpile - Ghosty Blinky Anafenza - Nezahal - Big, Blue and HERE! - Gonti Can Afford It - Kazuul, Tyrant of Chandras - Polukranos, More Mana - Azor Takes Flight - A3OS System - Vona Life Pain - Angel With a Whip and Her Pet Fox - Tolsimir Wolf Crusade - Dragonlord Steal & Copy - Arjun, the Mad Flame - Tatyova's Mad Lands - Zegana's Simic - Chainer Does the Value Dance - Polukranos, Unchained - Running Thromok - Sydri's Loco-Inspiraion - Zedruu the Furyhearted - Estrid Land Animation - A Case of Tariel's Persistent F*ckery - Tail of the AristoCat Humanitarian - Karador, Tomb Operator - Tayam Re-Curses - Jeleva... does... things - Sidisi, Death is Served - Omnath, Blink and You're Missing - The Negatiweaver - Breya, Eggs, Breya'd Eggs - Ishai and Reyhan Dicepile - Kynaios and Tiro Landfall Impersonations - Tana and Ravos' Regal Gatekeeping - Yidris of the Chi-Ting Corporation - General Tazri's Utterly Amazing Allies

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Post by BeneTleilax » 1 year ago

My meta has enough grave-hate to keep stuff like Eerie from getting too stupid. It's still good, but it's not "lol guess I just win", and can be responded to on enough different axis to keep it in check. Emergent is boring as %$#%, and goes into all the boring as %$#% Sultai goodstuff decks. At least Tooth and Nail rewards people doing somewhat interesting little combos. This is the least interesting win-on-the-stack I've seen, and I have little love for that whole category.
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Post by Krishnath » 1 year ago

Airi wrote:
1 year ago
I don't know if Emergent Ultimatum is worth it in Otrimi. Probably? But also, it's a super late tutor.
A super late tutor that allows you to cast two of the spells you tutored for without paying their mana costs. And as the article shows, it can lead to some pretty busted plays. I would not be surprised if it eventually ends up getting banned.
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Post by Serenade » 1 year ago

Aaaaaaaooooooooooooooo
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Post by WizardMN » 1 year ago

I think I am easily going to find room for Eerie Ultimatum in my Karador deck. The deck already wants a full graveyard and it is a reasonable to way to end the game, or get close to it, without relying on a combo. It still allows for interaction (if people would just play grave hate) and I can still get blown out with a wrath so I don't think it is just an "I win" button.

I like that the new Ultimatums, so far, seem like they are a little higher on the power level so they are usable in commander anyway. I am not sure how aggravating Emergent Ultimatum will be, but I can see it being annoying to play against. I guess that might be true for Eerie Ultimatum too to be honest.

BeneTleilax
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Post by BeneTleilax » 1 year ago

Krishnath wrote:
1 year ago
A super late tutor that allows you to cast two of the spells you tutored for without paying their mana costs. And as the article shows, it can lead to some pretty busted plays. I would not be surprised if it eventually ends up getting banned.
Here's hoping it does, though the lack of an Expropriate ban lowers my hopes. Its mana cost is big and silly enough that I can see folks mistaking it for a casual card, and of course you're going to get people claiming "well I only use it to find my Essence of the Wild and Progenitor Mimic". It has all the makings of a standard pubstomp tumor: it requires no skill to use, no real deckbuilding to use, and probably isn't efficient enough for cEDH, so people will assume it must be casual.
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Post by Rumpy5897 » 1 year ago

BeneTleilax wrote:
1 year ago
It has all the makings of a standard pubstomp tumor: it requires no skill to use, no real deckbuilding to use, and probably isn't efficient enough for cEDH, so people will assume it must be casual.
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Airi
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Post by Airi » 1 year ago

Krishnath wrote:
1 year ago
A super late tutor that allows you to cast two of the spells you tutored for without paying their mana costs. And as the article shows, it can lead to some pretty busted plays. I would not be surprised if it eventually ends up getting banned.
I cannot view the article as I'm at work, but I'm going to assume it doesn't allow you to mutate for free so that lower's it's power a bit for the specific deck I'm thinking.
RGW Marath [PR] |WUBRG Jodah | WUBRG Najeela | GB Dina
WBG Tayam | BGU Otrimi the Ever-Cute | UW Yorion | RW Zirda | UR Veyran

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DirkGently
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Post by DirkGently » 1 year ago

I don't think I've ever seen a card that I hated as much on sight as emergent ultimatum.

When I said earlier that waiting for spoilers was less like waiting for santa and more like waiting for a bomb to drop....well, that's exactly the kind of bomb I was worried about.

I don't know what would possess wizards to think a card like that would be fun in any way. They could have at least made it somewhat reasonable by slapping a cmc limit of even, say, 8 on there. But no. No limit. And it's in the strongest colors too, because why not.

I'm almost sick to my stomach with how much I hate this card.
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BeneTleilax
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Post by BeneTleilax » 1 year ago

Airi wrote:
1 year ago
I cannot view the article as I'm at work, but I'm going to assume it doesn't allow you to mutate for free so that lower's it's power a bit for the specific deck I'm thinking.
It just says cast, so I'd assume alternate casting costs (as opposed to additional costs like kicker) would work with it. That said, please don't run it. It's an obnoxious piece of cardboard that I really don't want to see normalized in casual play. Lutri the thing.
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Krishnath
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Post by Krishnath » 1 year ago

Airi wrote:
1 year ago
Krishnath wrote:
1 year ago
A super late tutor that allows you to cast two of the spells you tutored for without paying their mana costs. And as the article shows, it can lead to some pretty busted plays. I would not be surprised if it eventually ends up getting banned.
I cannot view the article as I'm at work, but I'm going to assume it doesn't allow you to mutate for free so that lower's it's power a bit for the specific deck I'm thinking.
It may not allow mutate, but it allows you to get *any* three spells with different names, although your opponent gets to select which of the three you get to play. If you pick the right three, the game is pretty much over. Say, if you got Enter the Infinite, Jace, Architect of Thought, and Doubling Season. No matter which of the three they select to get shuffled into the library, you win.
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pokken
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Post by pokken » 1 year ago

eerie ultimatum hitting lands is, well, gross. Makes me want to find a good abzan landfall commander. Maybe Karador would be good there since he has all the land fetching critters, I dunno.

These ultimatums are busted for sure but I guess I'm not *that* bent out of shape about other colors getting expropriate level bombs.

We really need more eidolon of rhetoric effects in the game tho, I'll say that.
Last edited by pokken 1 year ago, edited 1 time in total.

UnNamed1
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Post by UnNamed1 » 1 year ago

Wallycaine wrote:
1 year ago
UnNamed1 wrote:
1 year ago
DirkGently wrote:
1 year ago
Best use of Jegantha uses I can see are:

najeela, the blade-blossom. infinite combat steps. Yikes. That seems potentially pretty busted. At least you have to put your cards on the table right away.
How does this go infinite? Najeela untaps creatures that are attacking, Jegantha has to tap to make the mana, not attack. Unless I am missing something, this doesn't work.
There's a couple ways to get there, but it all requires a 3rd step, such as granting Jegantha vigilance. Ahh, I see. But as noted, doesn't do anything without something else tapping for profit, or vigilance.

Also an amusing note: going infinite with Freed From The Real doesn't get there, because the blue is consumed in untapping, so you only end up with infinite WBRG. You can probably still so some stuff with that, but it's hard to find repeatable abilities that don't require some generic.
It's interesting that Freed from the Real goes infinite with so many things. I had never heard of the card until a month ago and once i heard of it, it was an instant buy. And its fairly cheap too....

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FoxOfWar
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Post by FoxOfWar » 1 year ago

Kaheera, the Orphanguard puts me just a tiny bit closer to wanting to build Arahbo. Vigilance anthem you have always access to is not nothing on an aggressive cat deck...
36 decks or so...
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Hope of Ghirapur Swordpile - Ghosty Blinky Anafenza - Nezahal - Big, Blue and HERE! - Gonti Can Afford It - Kazuul, Tyrant of Chandras - Polukranos, More Mana - Azor Takes Flight - A3OS System - Vona Life Pain - Angel With a Whip and Her Pet Fox - Tolsimir Wolf Crusade - Dragonlord Steal & Copy - Arjun, the Mad Flame - Tatyova's Mad Lands - Zegana's Simic - Chainer Does the Value Dance - Polukranos, Unchained - Running Thromok - Sydri's Loco-Inspiraion - Zedruu the Furyhearted - Estrid Land Animation - A Case of Tariel's Persistent F*ckery - Tail of the AristoCat Humanitarian - Karador, Tomb Operator - Tayam Re-Curses - Jeleva... does... things - Sidisi, Death is Served - Omnath, Blink and You're Missing - The Negatiweaver - Breya, Eggs, Breya'd Eggs - Ishai and Reyhan Dicepile - Kynaios and Tiro Landfall Impersonations - Tana and Ravos' Regal Gatekeeping - Yidris of the Chi-Ting Corporation - General Tazri's Utterly Amazing Allies

Wallycaine
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Post by Wallycaine » 1 year ago

BeneTleilax wrote:
1 year ago
Airi wrote:
1 year ago
I cannot view the article as I'm at work, but I'm going to assume it doesn't allow you to mutate for free so that lower's it's power a bit for the specific deck I'm thinking.
It just says cast, so I'd assume alternate casting costs (as opposed to additional costs like kicker) would work with it. That said, please don't run it. It's an obnoxious piece of cardboard that I really don't want to see normalized in casual play. Lutri the thing.
It's actually the opposite. Because you're already casting it without paying the mana cost, you can't pick any other alternate casting costs (because that's already considered an alternate casting cost). You can, however, choose (and may be required to) to pay for additional costs, but you will actually have to pay them. So if you pick, say, Rite of Replication, you can still kick it, but you're required to pay the 5.

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DirkGently
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Post by DirkGently » 1 year ago

pokken wrote:
1 year ago
These ultimatums are busted for sure but I guess I'm not *that* bent out of shape about other colors getting expropriate level bombs.
Calling emergent ultimatum an "expropriate level bomb" is a massive understatement. With the right pile, expropriate becomes the LEAST POWERFUL of the cards you're searching. And then they still have to pick another card that you also get for free.

Oh and it costs two less than expropriate, for more than twice the value.

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pokken
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Post by pokken » 1 year ago

DirkGently wrote:
1 year ago
pokken wrote:
1 year ago
These ultimatums are busted for sure but I guess I'm not *that* bent out of shape about other colors getting expropriate level bombs.
Calling emergent ultimatum an "expropriate level bomb" is a massive understatement. With the right pile, expropriate becomes the LEAST POWERFUL of the cards you're searching. And then they still have to pick another card that you also get for free.

Oh and it costs two less than expropriate, for more than twice the value.
With all those pips in the cost I'd consider them largely equivalent in cost, but you're neglecting the deckbuilding constraints of having to have bricks like enter the infinite and omniscience in your deck. Even doubling season and jace, architect of thought are fairly bad cards outside of specific archetypes.

It's weaker than tooth and nail as well.

The game has basically gotten to the point where people need to have some restraint and it's been there for years. A new BUG Bomb is nothing new.

I guess my fundamental reaction can be boiled down to: "Look, someone found a way to cast enter the infinite for free and win!"

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Post by BeneTleilax » 1 year ago

pokken wrote:
1 year ago
These ultimatums are busted for sure but I guess I'm not *that* bent out of shape about other colors getting expropriate level bombs.
Sultai goodstuff needs no help, especially not in the form of another nauseatingly braindead wincon. Eerie is fine, imo. If you're letting the BGx deck build a fat graveyard, you can expect to get blown out. There's enough cheap gravehate and wide-reaching wraths that tables should be able to keep Eerie from winning on the spot. It's a big ol' lump of advantage, I'm not denying that, but for that mana cost, a big ol' lump of advantage is par for the course. Emergent isn't advantage, it's a self-enclosed win on the stack, one which demands nothing more of deckbuilding than running a few other self-enclosed wins on the stack. It is everything toxic in casual EDH condensed to a card.
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DirkGently
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Post by DirkGently » 1 year ago

pokken wrote:
1 year ago
With all those pips in the cost I'd consider them largely equivalent in cost
With how much fixing commander has, I'd consider emergent ultimatum's cost to be equivalent to (but you need to be playing sultai, unless your fixing is good in which case 5c is fine)
you're neglecting the deckbuilding constraints of having to have bricks like enter the infinite and omniscience in your deck.
Decks were already winning with those cards when they actually had to pay to cast them. Hell, those cards were still really annoying even when people paid to cast them.

And of course if you're running tutors, you multiply your chances to draw this while not drawing the cards you want to cast with it.
It's weaker than tooth and nail as well.
Strongly strongly disagree. T&N can be responded to with creature removal, which ever color has access to and ought to be running. Many of the best piles here can't be responded to except with counterspells. And this is day one. I'm sure even grosser things will be discovered.

Plus T&N costs 9.
The game has basically gotten to the point where people need to have some restraint and it's been there for years. A new BUG Bomb is nothing new.
As nice as that would be, this isn't the kind of card that people are going to restrain themselves from using, in my experience.

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Post by Couver » 1 year ago

Obsessed with Kaheera, the Orphanguard

I always wanted a Selesnya only dino deck and made one with Karametra. To actually have a legend that supports Selesnya dinos now is nice. I like that you can take it several different ways in terms of which creature type you run though (or all of them). Though the cat precon is the obvious home for this.

I'm liking the companions as commanders more and more now.

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