Unreleased and New Card Discussion

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KitsuLeif
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Post by KitsuLeif » 1 year ago

So... it is an auto-include in every SB-deck? :D
At least I can't imagine why you wouldn't want to play it.
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DirkGently
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Post by DirkGently » 1 year ago

Serenade wrote:
1 year ago
...though I don't get why they didn't just use those extra words on the card.
Wordiness/grokablity, I'm sure. They've already had to do similar things with modular, for example, which were printed at common and thus wanted to stay as simple as possible.

It kinda makes sense though. I mean, how would "those counters" even exist if they were on any creature other than skullbriar, by the time the trigger resolved? So logically it has to be using "new" counters.

Anyway neat card.

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Serenade
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Post by Serenade » 1 year ago

"Put those" makes me think I am moving them from one place to another.

Reminds me of the "partner with" reminder text, of which I'm still not a big fan.

I guess that answers my undying/persist question, though!
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Myllior
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Post by Myllior » 1 year ago

Serenade wrote:
1 year ago
"Put those" makes me think I am moving them from one place to another.
Yeah, Magic is usually very literal with its terminology (e.g. must say "target" to target) so it's a bit strange to see The Ozolith, where the written words don't literally match how it works. Could probably go with something like, "Whenever a creature you control leaves the battlefield, for each counter it had on it, put a counter of that type on The Ozolith." A bit longer but that's the usual price for clarity.

It also removes the intervening "if" clause (you could also remove this from the second ability by rewording it), but that just means a few extra triggers, which will only matter in digital formats. Even then, the little extra time spent on Arena would be nothing compared to the time saved by having a functioning F6-equivalent.

So yeah, strange card in ability and wording. Kind of makes me want more hatebears that mess with triggered abilities.

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Post by Wallycaine » 1 year ago

Serenade wrote:
1 year ago
"Put those" makes me think I am moving them from one place to another.

Reminds me of the "partner with" reminder text, of which I'm still not a big fan.

I guess that answers my undying/persist question, though!
90% of the time, if you think it moves the counters off the old card, you'd come to the right answer. But when you dig into the rules, cards can't have counters on them off the battlefield without a special ability, so by the time the ability would go to resolve the original counters are already been eliminated. So it has to be creating "new" counters, it just uses the wording "those counters" to ensure you know that it's using the same type and number as the card that triggered it.

As for why they went with the shortened wording, it saves space and the confusion really only comes up with like... Skullbriar and Modular, neither of which are exactly common interactions. So in this case, saving space is enough of a benefit, especially when the wording does work within the rules.

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Post by TheGildedGoose » 1 year ago

Hawk wrote:
1 year ago
Well, horrific Flavor Aside Heartless Act can now join Deadly Rollick as cards that completely alter the removal suite of every Black-based commander deck for the rest of time. Deadly Rollick is at least debatable or not a windmill slam in a deck like, say, Edgar Markov or Trolloro. But I think Heartless Act is absolutely better than Doom Blade and Go for the Throat.

Against the top 50 creatures, Heartless Act only misses one and a half (Ramos, Dragon Engine, Shalai, Voice of Plenty after an activation) and even then not always. Doom Blade misses 13, and GftT misses 4. (discounting ones that all of these fail against, which is currently only Iroas, God of Victory).

Against the top 20 non-'walker Commanders (since all of these miss 'walkers)
- Heartless hits 18 (I am ruling it does not hit Atraxa or Korvold; it could but most opponents are not morons).
- Throat hits 18 as well.
- Blade hits only 7.
Excellent analysis. Thanks for running the numbers. I'm inclined to agree that Heartless Act is the best 2cmc mono-black removal spell in the format, just ahead of Throat.

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Post by Rumpy5897 » 1 year ago

Victim of Night is another solid 2 CMC black removal option, by the way. Not discounting the new one at all, but somehow this one didn't come up, so mentioning it in the interest of completeness.

This particular preview season seems to struggle a bit with pacing. They blew the full Apex cycle and most of the Mythoses early, and now everything feels blech because C20 had some objectively impressive things in there too. Guess we're stuck waiting for The Big Land Reveal :P
 
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Post by Krishnath » 1 year ago

Rumpy5897 wrote:
1 year ago
Victim of Night is another solid 2 CMC black removal option, by the way. Not discounting the new one at all, but somehow this one didn't come up, so mentioning it in the interest of completeness.

This particular preview season seems to struggle a bit with pacing. They blew the full Apex cycle and most of the Mythoses early, and now everything feels blech because C20 had some objectively impressive things in there too. Guess we're stuck waiting for The Big Land Reveal :P
We're also waiting for the completion of the cycle they said we've waited 10 years for, and that is pretty exciting.
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Post by DirkGently » 1 year ago

Betting on ultimatums, but hoping for river of tears land cycle.

Past 2 days have been very boring, lurrus is really the only cool card imo.

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Post by Rumpy5897 » 1 year ago

While nosing around for new spoilers to port, I came across an unearthed early March leak. The post correctly identifies Ikoria's wedgeness, cycling, mutate and companion, albeit gets some exact execution details of it wrong. I wouldn't blame them, it took me a few minutes to wrap my head around companion too. It also has its say on the lands and decade-cycle. Sticking it in a spoiler for the sake of people who want to enjoy preview season like WotC intended, guess follow-up discussion would also be nice if spoilered.
 
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DirkGently
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Post by DirkGently » 1 year ago

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If that's accurate, the lands sound pretty spicy. Although unfortunately I don't have any permanent wedge+ decks.

Interesting to learn(?) that MaRo himself wanted the RC to allow companion to work. It does make me wonder if my speculation (from another thread) that WotC is interested in opening the doors to other outside-the-game mechanics - for example, something like the "choose a card you drafted" cards from CN2, except with cards you've chosen from your wishboard. Definitely a lot of interesting mechanics that could use that space.

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Post by Krishnath » 1 year ago

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If those tri-lands with basic land types turn out to be true, that is huge! It will certainly explain why WotC is so unwilling to reprint the fetches in standard.
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Post by folding_music » 1 year ago

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:3 they should absolutely never reprint those fetches again
I hope there's some sort of rainbow land to go with these tap trilands though, needs something aggressive and temporary akin to Gemstone Mine and, hey, the set is full of gemstones.

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Post by MeowZeDung » 1 year ago

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devils advocate here: if tri lands with land types are coming I'm not gonna lie, that's annoying. They keep making fetches better and better, but never reprinting them except as stupid lairs and making it less and less likely I'll ever own a scalding tarn. I dig the tri lands themselves, just not what they'll do to the market. Granted, some tutors and some ramp spells that aren't all $80 pieces of cardboard get better too, which I like.

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Post by Krishnath » 1 year ago

folding_music wrote:
1 year ago
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:3 they should absolutely never reprint those fetches again
I hope there's some sort of rainbow land to go with these tap trilands though, needs something aggressive and temporary akin to Gemstone Mine and, hey, the set is full of gemstones.
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They're likely coming in Commander Legends if the reveal of the Secret Lair in TCC is anything to go by. The Professor got Doug to admit they were going to put them in a booster product this year, and that is the only one it could arguably be.
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Post by DirkGently » 1 year ago

Krishnath wrote:
1 year ago
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They're likely coming in Commander Legends if the reveal of the Secret Lair in TCC is anything to go by. The Professor got Doug to admit they were going to put them in a booster product this year, and that is the only one it could arguably be.
(why are we still whispering? These are official spoilers we're talking about at this point...)

I'd bet just about anything it'll be friendly fetches in commander legends, which are relatively reasonably priced.

I don't really care that much either way, I've got enough fetches at this point. But I'm just saying. If you think you're getting $10 scalding tarns this year I think you're bound for disappointment.

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Post by DirkGently » 1 year ago

Well, jegantha, the wellspring is pretty weird. Poor gruul doesn't get any companion I guess. Ah well, it it my second-least-favorite pair.

Seems pretty strong, though, not too hard to build around. Easy infinite mana with freed from the real but you can't do as much as you'd like with it.

I wonder how this mana works with stuff like drain life. Is that considered generic or not?

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Post by Krishnath » 1 year ago

DirkGently wrote:
1 year ago
Krishnath wrote:
1 year ago
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They're likely coming in Commander Legends if the reveal of the Secret Lair in TCC is anything to go by. The Professor got Doug to admit they were going to put them in a booster product this year, and that is the only one it could arguably be.
(why are we still whispering? These are official spoilers we're talking about at this point...)

I'd bet just about anything it'll be friendly fetches in commander legends, which are relatively reasonably priced.

I don't really care that much either way, I've got enough fetches at this point. But I'm just saying. If you think you're getting $10 scalding tarns this year I think you're bound for disappointment.
The only thing I expected from Commander Legends was revealed on the sets announcement: A new card for Baron Sengir. Everything else is just a bonus. :laugh:
DirkGently wrote:
1 year ago
Well, jegantha, the wellspring is pretty weird. Poor gruul doesn't get any companion I guess. Ah well, it it my second-least-favorite pair.

Seems pretty strong, though, not too hard to build around. Easy infinite mana with freed from the real but you can't do as much as you'd like with it.

I wonder how this mana works with stuff like drain life. Is that considered generic or not?
Jegantha, the Wellspring is perfect for Sisay, Weatherlight Captain. Getting cards with only one colored mana symbol of each type in the CC is easy for a five color deck.
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Post by FoxOfWar » 1 year ago

I like Jegantha a lot, though five-color without any double pips does make it pretty tricky to find a coherent plan of action besides toolboxing or goodstuff. My Ally deck would lose way too many good support cards (populate and copy effects, mostly).

Some kind of charm-spellslinger with Ramos, perhaps?
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Post by Airi » 1 year ago

Sucks that the Gruul legend is not Gruul :x
RGW Marath [PR] |WUBRG Jodah | WUBRG Najeela | GB Dina
WBG Tayam | BGU Otrimi the Ever-Cute | UW Yorion | RW Zirda | UR Veyran

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DirkGently
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Post by DirkGently » 1 year ago

Best use of Jegantha uses I can see are:

horde of notions. It's even an elemental so you can just bring it back. Even goes infinite with haste and a sac outlet.

najeela, the blade-blossom. infinite combat steps. Yikes. That seems potentially pretty busted. At least you have to put your cards on the table right away.

jodah, archmage eternal. T: cast a spell.

Also gets you most of the way towards activating Golos.

Yeah the more I look at this one the more I don't think I'm going to like seeing it.

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Post by Stapler » 1 year ago

Holy cow, my Niv-Mizzet Reborn deck can run Jegantha as a companion with just two cuts. Granted, they're two pretty important cards - Murderous Redcap enables a lot of combos, and Aurelia the Warleader does the same while also advancing the deck's beatdown/Voltron plan - but I almost never combo out with the deck anyway, and having access to more mana in Niv is always incredibly important.

TBH this one worries me more than the others, as it feels like it's just going to be a card a lot of 5C decks can run for free. I hope it doesn't become too ubiquitous.
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Post by UnNamed1 » 1 year ago

DirkGently wrote:
1 year ago
Best use of Jegantha uses I can see are:

najeela, the blade-blossom. infinite combat steps. Yikes. That seems potentially pretty busted. At least you have to put your cards on the table right away.
How does this go infinite? Najeela untaps creatures that are attacking, Jegantha has to tap to make the mana, not attack. Unless I am missing something, this doesn't work.

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Post by DirkGently » 1 year ago

UnNamed1 wrote:
1 year ago
How does this go infinite? Najeela untaps creatures that are attacking, Jegantha has to tap to make the mana, not attack. Unless I am missing something, this doesn't work.
Use Najeela's ability to untap it for wubrg. Then, while it's still attacking, tap untap tap untap etc.

Mind you, unlimited attack steps doesn't do anything without vigilance or some other tricks.

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Post by Krishnath » 1 year ago

UnNamed1 wrote:
1 year ago
DirkGently wrote:
1 year ago
Best use of Jegantha uses I can see are:

najeela, the blade-blossom. infinite combat steps. Yikes. That seems potentially pretty busted. At least you have to put your cards on the table right away.
How does this go infinite? Najeela untaps creatures that are attacking, Jegantha has to tap to make the mana, not attack. Unless I am missing something, this doesn't work.
Well, you need to give Jegantha vigilance for it to work, but it is possible to do.
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