Unreleased and New Card Discussion

[DirkGently]

Nogi...I just have no idea why you'd ever play him over The Ur-Dragon.

My dear DirkGently, you have multiple threads about looking for an underpowered Commander for your group.

I can easily see Nogi as an alternative for a group that's just plain sick of The Ur-Dragon.

I think I'm an uncommon situation. The vast majority of players want a stronger option, not a weaker one.

Not that ur-dragon is very strong anyway. It's not like they fixed Prime Speaker Vannifar or some other commander that becomes easily linear and overpowered.

[tstorm823]

I think I'm an uncommon situation. The vast majority of players want a stronger option, not a weaker one.

You're not an uncommon situation. It's not even an uncommon situation that you think you're an uncommon situation. The overwhelming majority of players try to find the right power level for the people they're playing with because that is how good gameplay comes about, and too many think they're the only one contributing.

[RowanKeltizar]

Obviously polling this forum is not a fair representation of the Magic community overall, but do people even still like foils? Given their eventual warping, I assign them no value whatsoever. My buddy loves to buy collector packs, but I do not understand it because you get so many foils in them.

No, i don't get foils anymore unless they are etched foils. Most of the newer foils I have are curling, even doubled sleeved in deck boxes. I would like to liquidate the ones I have but probably too lazy to follow through. I'm really glad they are starting to include etched foil variants with every set now and they look pretty nice IMO. I really wish they would just phase out that crappy foiling process alltogether and come up with something different or just don't do it at all.

Worth noting though: double sided foils are fine and stay flat in my experience.

The double masters borderless cards on the whole look amazing. I will definitely have to add quite a few of these to my collection. The Ian Miller Damnation|73734 is really nice as is the Mark Poole Panharmonicon|73954 and the Vedalken Orrery|73675 .

But I will be gunning for the etched foil variants in a lot of cases too.

Look a the presale price for Warrior's Oath now. $54 That dropped fast! Imperial Seal is also not objectively the best tutor so I wonder how low that will go. My hunch is that in the long run, these two cards won't take up as much value for the set as people originally thought.

[Hermes_]

Obviously polling this forum is not a fair representation of the Magic community overall, but do people even still like foils?

I do!

[Igzex]

I don't even think Nogi is even good enough for the 99 in a dragon deck. I guess it's an alternative commander for those who can't afford a decent multicolor manabase but then again the good dragons are getting less affordable than color fixing lands these days. I like Vogar though. As if Carrion Feeder wasn't useful enough.

[brainface]

A lot of the etched and showcase foils look great. I'm not a big fan of the foiled normal arts anymore, as there's almost always a 'more special' version so it's like having the normal art but prinklier and harder to guarantee you're not playing with marked cards. I can often tell exactly where a bad foil is when shuffling a deck, so it makes me cheat for no reason and little value. But like, the foil showcase Cormela, Glamour Thief looks amazing. Most of the new capenna ones do!

I don't even think Nogi is even good enough for the 99 in a dragon deck.

He seems fine for "I'm building a dragon deck and I don't want to think even for one second about color fixing." Dragons are pretty pip hungry, they're not the easiest five color tribe to make. Like, if I want to play dragons after midnight and beer 3, he seems good enough at that.

[DirkGently]

You're not an uncommon situation. It's not even an uncommon situation that you think you're an uncommon situation. The overwhelming majority of players try to find the right power level for the people they're playing with because that is how good gameplay comes about, and too many think they're the only one contributing.

I guess it depends on how uncommon you consider uncommon. Around here, sure, we're mostly pretty enfranchised players who are more likely to be aware of these sorts of things. But at an LGS, most people are not trying to weaken themselves on purpose, at least not from what I see and hear. Unless a card is known to be unfun, most people want to play the most powerful stuff they can get their hands on. A problem I think a lot of people have noticed.

That said, the reason I think my situation specifically is uncommon is the degree of difference between my resources and experience and my playgroup. It's almost impossible to have a greater delta, on both counts, on top of which the way I like to build and play makes things additionally difficult (I like to build to the max power within the constraints I set for myself, and I will never pull punches when playing), plus I'm somewhat particular about the sorts of strategies I like to play. All those things combined make it a fairly unique challenge, I think. Other people may decide they need to limit their power, but they won't have the same difficulty in doing so.

Case in point - one of the guys in my group built a netdecked Zacama, Primal Calamity which (although he didn't realize it until I pointed it out) was heavily focused around the infinite combo with Temur Sabertooth/Sanctum of Eternity. After deciding it was too linear, he took them out, but hasn't changed anything else about the deck, i.e. all the nonbasic land tutors that are now pretty useless. So yes, he's limiting power, but he doesn't need a series of experiments to find the right way to do it. And if it wasn't for me telling him (1) that the combo existed and (2) that I wasn't going to play with him if he intentionally sandbagged the combo because he "didn't think he should win yet", he probably would have left it in and either not noticed it or held it back until he thought it was appropriate to win.

But more to the point of this particular card, I've never seen an ur-dragon deck that was particularly powerful, but it's possible that someone finds their ur-dragon deck to be too strong for their group. However, I find it unlikely that they'd want to shave 4 colors off of him as their way to remedy the problem, given they'd have to dump a lot of their likely-favorite cards. Much easier to just remove the offending cards from the deck.

[tstorm823]

I like to build to the max power within the constraints I set for myself

Seemingly in the face of all evidence that it leads you to dissatisfying experiences.

You've got multiple examples in there of people weakening themselves for the sake of it. And not in the "I beat everyone normally, so now lets see if I can do it blindfolded in handcuffs" sense that you go for, but just not playing things that run against the play experience they want. You say you like to build to the max power, and I have to ask, do you actually? Is that what you like? Do you even consider what you actually like to play with? You asked at some point why someone would just cut themselves off of 4 colors, but maybe they just really like playing mono-red. Maybe they like kobolds and build all the kobold commanders. Maybe they have a little toy dragon that they're excited to slam on the table when Nogi turns into a dragon because they think that's fun. People aren't optimizing most of the time in this format, they're playing what gives them joy, and then power their deck up or down as needed to not create bad feelings with their playgroup.

[DirkGently]

Seemingly in the face of all evidence that it leads you to dissatisfying experiences.

You've got multiple examples in there of people weakening themselves for the sake of it. And not in the "I beat everyone normally, so now lets see if I can do it blindfolded in handcuffs" sense that you go for, but just not playing things that run against the play experience they want. You say you like to build to the max power, and I have to ask, do you actually? Is that what you like? Do you even consider what you actually like to play with? You asked at some point why someone would just cut themselves off of 4 colors, but maybe they just really like playing mono-red. Maybe they like kobolds and build all the kobold commanders. Maybe they have a little toy dragon that they're excited to slam on the table when Nogi turns into a dragon because they think that's fun. People aren't optimizing most of the time in this format, they're playing what gives them joy, and then power their deck up or down as needed to not create bad feelings with their playgroup.

Idk why you're turning a card evaluation into an opportunity to continue this pointless lecture. Give it a rest. I've successfully made multiple decks that are fun to build and play and fit nicely within my playgroup - if anything maybe on the excessively weak side. Mission accomplished, despite your insistence that it couldn't be done. Maybe you could have contributed if you'd stop lecturing me about how I'm doing the game wrong.

If this card scratches someone's particular itch, then more power to them, I'm just saying that I think that's going to be a very small number of people given the overlap with another stronger and more flexible option. The fact that it'll be hard to acquire isn't going to help things either. I'd be pretty surprised if this cracked 200 entries on EDHrec, and sub-50 seems more likely. Do you think this is going to be a popular commander? Because if you do, I'm happy to wait until the stats come in. And if you don't, I don't know why we're arguing except that you want an excuse to keep soapboxing.

Personally I'm glad these are on the lower end of the spectrum (in terms of power and likely appeal) given their placement. Buying a whole box of decks to get one card is pretty annoying.

[EonAon]

For me foils have never been desirable since they always costed double to triple back in the day. Then add in the whole cannot use them in major tournaments cause all foils from all eras curl. Admittedly the current generation are really horrible on that merit than the ones back in the day. Personally, as while the concept of blinging a deck is understandable I prefer the new bling in full art rather than foil. Before I was totally anti bling since the only way to do that was to invest in cards that later on could and probably would lose value. I like my speculation to not have to be stored in a box of desiccate and prayer.

[tstorm823]

Idk why you're turning a card evaluation into an opportunity to continue this pointless lecture.

Well, if you can move from "I have no idea why anyone would play this" to "I can imagine reasons people might play this", it's not pointless.

[TheGildedGoose]

For Dirk and myself, building a deck is like solving a puzzle. It's not that there is a perfect solution, but there is a certain degree of optimization that can be chiseled out of the rock of a first draft. To me, at least, it's less about finding a deck that fits in with my group (since I don't have a consistent group) but about making each and every deck I have as effective at doing what it wants to do as is reasonably possible.

[DirkGently]

Well, if you can move from "I have no idea why anyone would play this" to "I can imagine reasons people might play this", it's not pointless.

Of course any card can be played within a format that puts personal preference as its highest goal. I think that goes without saying. The same logic could be used to run Wood Elemental. I don't think making that point contributes anything relevant to the evaluation of the card, or any card, given that it is always true and everyone already knows it's true.

Don't take offhand comments so literally. This language policing serves no purpose except to prolong this weird beef you have with me. My point was that it's a weak card that's overshadowed by other options and I think my statement makes that clear enough unless you're deliberately looking for something to pick a fight over.

For Dirk and myself, building a deck is like solving a puzzle. It's not that there is a perfect solution, but there is a certain degree of optimization that can be chiseled out of the rock of a first draft. To me, at least, it's less about finding a deck that fits in with my group (since I don't have a consistent group) but about making each and every deck I have as effective at doing what it wants to do as is reasonably possible.

That's definitely how I've usually built decks. My current group has required some adjustments to my process, though, and some analysis of what makes games fair.

Good example would be utility lands. After playing several 98/99 land decks and still winning, I realized that the issue with utility lands wasn't them being too strong intrinsically, it was that my group wasn't as capable of tracking complex board states accurately, and utility lands significantly increase board state complexity when they can have immediate board impact, leading to me sniping scumbag wins by pulling important utility lands out of a big stack of other utility lands. So Arch of Orazca is fine because it doesn't really require them to track it when considering board state, whereas manlands and mazes do.

Materpillar had previously said "you should probably blanket ban yourself from utility lands" - which I eventually ended up agreeing with. But the why is the crucial element that was omitted. Testing and paying attention and analyzing my games has given me a lot more insight than randomly pruning things until the deck sucks sufficiently.

[TheAmericanSpirit]

I actually like Nogi, although tribal in general ain't my bag. Cost reduction in the CZ always plays better than it reads in my experience. I've got a goreclaw deck made of mud and twigs and even it can apply some scary pressure fairly early if unchecked. Dragons are a little more specific and expensive, but I still feel like dropping two 4 drop flyers turn 6 (t5 with 1 piece of additional ramp) will feel good at most tables.

The payoff is flavor text.

[5colorsrainbow]

Been thinking of a mono-black Shadowborn Apostle deck would anyone have a suggestion on how many I should run? The deck isn't much more set than that and maybe slightly Liliana and her demons themed.

[Dunharrow]

Been thinking of a mono-black Shadowborn Apostle deck would anyone have a suggestion on how many I should run? The deck isn't much more set than that and maybe slightly Liliana and her demons themed.

I think it really depends on the amount of card draw you have. You don't want so many of them that your hands are just Apostles with nothing else going on. I think you want a minimum of 20ish. I would guess that 30 is the upper limit.
What is your win condition?
I am guessing it is Razaketh, the Foulblooded, tutor for combo.
Who is your commander? do people still play Shirei, Shizo's Caretaker? Shirei is cool with Razaketh since you can re-sack your Apostles.
I would guess about 36 lands, 4 demons, 25 Apostles, giving you 34 spells and a commander to play with. But I would make sure to have a lot of draw/looting, somewhere in the vein of 10-15 spells. This is a deck where you want to get the demons out of your hand when you draw them, where you want to dig for six apostles then discard the rest.
If you don't want Shirei, I feel like Raffine, Scheming Seer could be decent. Oh and it's a demon. You have white, can be easy to set up combos (Razakats, Reveillark loops, etc).

That's how I would play it.

[Arebennian]

The best colours for Shadowborn Apostles = Abzan (GBW). You get the most broken synergy pieces that care about multiple copies of an individual card in this colour combination.

Bloodbond March Remembrance Edgewalker Echoing Return secret salvage thrumming stone nantuko shrine earthcraft effects (Katilda, Dawnhart Prime being one such other example). They are all Human clerics, and so a few of the 'human' tribal cards can be run.

Mass reanimation effects like Patriarch's Biddingand others.

I'd suggest Tymna the weaver and Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa as commanders.
I'd run perhaps 1-2 daemon targets. Vilis, Broker of Blood and Razaketh, the Foulblooded being top of the list.

It is an aristocrat/combo strategy. The trick with the deck is fitting in the interactive pieces: filling half your cards slots with 1 mana humans limits what you can do (and you realistically want to run between 29-33). Draw and removal are a real squeeze.

[duducrash]

But at an LGS, most people are not trying to weaken themselves on purpose, at least not from what I see and hear.

I feel like many many LGS players are either trying to stomp or to lower their powerlevel in order not to absolutely destroy some random dude trying to have fun after work with their Saheeli precom they haven't updated since 2019

[ISBPathfinder]

I also like picking up white for Shadowborn Apostles as there is a lot of really good cleric tribal synergy in white as well as a number of good recursion elements there. Its possible there might be an option in Grenzo, Dungeon Warden which is a little out of the norm but it gives you a mana funnel style of card advantage options. My own take is that white is the best pickup color if you aren't just going for a mono black strategy off the back of Taborax, Hope's Demise.

[MaritLage]

I don·t often keep my foils anymore . They pringle so bad ! Someone said WotC changed their manufacturing for foils? Ka . I like in a humid climate they don·t usually last a day .

[kirkusjones]

In regards to the Apostle deck, how badly do you want to do the same thing every game? I built Athreos, God of Passage apostle storm a long time ago and quickly took it apart because the game plan was so linear. I'm sure there are ways to build apostles that aren't, but it's definitely something to consider before tracking down 30-40 of the buggers.

[5colorsrainbow]

Thank you all for the advice and suggestions! For more info ive posted before I'm trying to make a commander deck for each color/combos and to be frank a lot of the mono color decks seem kinda boring but the idea of mono-black Shadowborn Apostle sounded fun. Likely commander would be Taborax, Hope's Demise due to synergy and I'm thinking after y'all advice to run 24 of the Apostles, 6 or so demons and a few other creatures that work well in the deck. Thinking of stuff that can bring back the apostles. For fun and flavor might run Liliana Contract and her four demons (sans Griselbrand depending on the group).

[DirkGently]

Well, we've got Fortnite cards now.

I forgot they told us about these in advance. At least they're reprints. And not even a legendary. I wonder how well they actually sell, they look super skippable to me.

[Igzex]

Honestly I'm stunned that WOTC remembered that Dance of Many exists.

[EonAon]

I really HATE that they make secret lair with basic lands. Dont get me wrong the art is great for its whimsy, its just the cost per one of these if it turns out to be desirable......just cheeses me off.