[Off-Topic] Community Chat Thread

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pokken
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Post by pokken » 6 months ago

materpillar wrote:
6 months ago
The game is actually pretty terrible, from a game design perspective. It is even easier for spikes to ruin a game of WH40k than it is for them to ruin a game of EDH.
I used to play competitively and can confirm this is true in every respect. There's always a handful of units that are better than everything else and broken weapons etc. etc. and your goal is to load up on all the broken stuff if you're trying to win.

It's a bit like CEDH except not all that fun and with lots of arguing about measurements...oh, and with slowplay being a valid tactic, and lots of people not really playing to win and then tanking your sportsmanship scores for beating them :P

I actually do think the sportsmanship score thing helped more than it hurt and have thought about trying to apply it to tournament EDH. The Aesthetics score was also super fun, I took a lot of pride in painting my dudes.

But it did really burn my buns when my buddy lost a tournament because his final opponent tanked his painting and sportsmanship scores when he called him on basically slow-playing to effectively cheat.

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Post by RxPhantom » 6 months ago

pokken wrote:
6 months ago
materpillar wrote:
6 months ago
The game is actually pretty terrible, from a game design perspective. It is even easier for spikes to ruin a game of WH40k than it is for them to ruin a game of EDH.
I used to play competitively and can confirm this is true in every respect. There's always a handful of units that are better than everything else and broken weapons etc. etc. and your goal is to load up on all the broken stuff if you're trying to win.

It's a bit like CEDH except not all that fun and with lots of arguing about measurements...oh, and with slowplay being a valid tactic, and lots of people not really playing to win and then tanking your sportsmanship scores for beating them :P

I actually do think the sportsmanship score thing helped more than it hurt and have thought about trying to apply it to tournament EDH. The Aesthetics score was also super fun, I took a lot of pride in painting my dudes.

But it did really burn my buns when my buddy lost a tournament because his final opponent tanked his painting and sportsmanship scores when he called him on basically slow-playing to effectively cheat.
This is all very enlightening to me, as I know little of 40K outside of it's basic conceit and aesthetics. Are you sure that this sportsmanship thing actually helped more than it hurt? It sounds like it it rewarded pettiness.
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Post by Hermes_ » 6 months ago

WH40K:

One Army equals a good 4C manabase :P
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Post by pokken » 6 months ago

RxPhantom wrote:
6 months ago
Are you sure that this sportsmanship thing actually helped more than it hurt? It sounds like it it rewarded pettiness.
It was by far the exception - it stands out in my memory because it was so unusual.

The prettiest army almost always won the aesthetics and the best person to play with almost always won that in my experience. I was kind of a little prick 20 years ago and it showed in my sportsmanship scores on occasion :P Like I'd hurry people up and rules lawyer and stuff.

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Post by toctheyounger » 6 months ago

On mobile so I can't be bothered precisely quoting Dirk, its too finicky to address just the one point i see that I think is probably incorrect. Time will tell.

I doubt very, very strongly that the LotR product will be promotional linked to the TV series. Theres at this point almost no telling which characters are going to be in the series, aside from Sauron. And if its going to be canon hes going to start the series as someone no one recognizes whatsoever. Thats not going to be effective, and in terms of drawing franchise fans into the fold itd not going to work. There are far more people out there who know the third age story than who've even read the Silmarillion, let alone enjoyed it, so it would be a massive gamble to do this and have everyone clamoring for Gandalf when the set comes out.

There's just virtually no touchstones in the canon for the story theyre going to be telling, at least not in the direct story from the films abd original books. You've got Galadriel who's barely present, Celeborn who's barely present (and id be surprised if folk remember him from the films tbh), Gandalf whos technically alive at that point but not present, Elrond, and Sauron.

Wotc isn't above making foolish creative decisions but honestly if they want to share this IP, there's no reason not to work backwards from the third age where all the stuff everyone knows happens. It would be a terrible idea to do otherwise.

So I guess in that respect I would be very surprised if this is the coke advertisement you think its going to be. In all other respects it isn't really advertisement considering the films have been out 20 years, abd the books 60.
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Post by Dunharrow » 6 months ago

Good point Toc. No way they are going to make this reflective of the Amazon show, except maybe with a few cards. It's not like people are clamouring to play with Isildur.

I hope it is more faithful to the books than to the films. Like, I really don't want the characters to have the faces of the actors like The Walking Dead did. But, they may do that for recognition.
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Post by Dunharrow » 6 months ago

DirkGently wrote:
6 months ago
Saying "you don't have to play with them" would be a great point...if these were a spin-off product only legal in its own environment. I'd be totally fine if that was how it was. But it's not, these are fully legal in commander, which means by choosing not to play them I'm limiting my card pool, and I can't stop other people from playing them against me. Proxying the cards is the way to avoid limiting my card pool, without being forced to advertise for outside IPs or support business practices I dislike.
I want to focus on this.

Yes, the cards will be legal in Commander, which is the format most of us play predominantly. They will not be standard, pioneer or modern legal. They will be legal in legacy, but unless they push any cards it's unlikely to matter. so they have effectively made these cards only matter for casual play, which is as close as they can do to making it a standalone product that doesn't interact with any existing formats.

They could have made them silver border. They could do the Godzilla treatment. I think either solution would quell your anger.
But, as far as we know, that isn't happening.

Now, I get that you don't want to limit your cardpool by boycotting cards from outside IPs. But we are effectively talking about a casual format. This isn't where you need to get a specific card to win a tournament.

If, for argument's sake, The Gitrog Monster was actually a Warhammer card. It would annoy some of us that like the abilities of the card, but not the flavor. I don't think I would play it.
If I were making a Jund Lands deck, I could see it fitting into it, but since I don't want the card for flavour reasons, I would just move on. There are probably a hundred other cards that I could play.

So that is my question - why does it bother you so much to just ignore these products? I get that you can proxy them. I could proxy Glenn, the Voice of Calm too. Flavour it as Daxos or something. But I don't want to. I didn't like that SLD. I would rather just ignore it.

Again - I understand and also wish that these could just be given the Godzilla treatment. But, for me they fall into one of two categories: A) I have no interest in playing with or owning these cards (Warhammer), or B) I want to own and play with these cards.
I don't get the idea that you want to play with the cards without owning them. But then again, I have never wanted to proxy cards in my life. I just don't like having fake cards. I would rather play sub-optimally than play with proxies.
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Post by Dunharrow » 6 months ago

Maro talks answers fan who doesn't want to see outside IPs in Magic

I think this basically sums up their attitude - which I understand some of you will disagree with. I will say again that by making it only legal in Legacy (and Vintage) and Commander, it is essentially an isolated product. You will only see the cards played casually. In casual settings, you can decide if you want to play with a card or not.

I also get that there are some environments that have commander tournaments. It's probably the most problematic issue for this kind of magic expansion.
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Post by DirkGently » 6 months ago

toctheyounger wrote:
6 months ago
I doubt very, very strongly that the LotR product will be promotional linked to the TV series. Theres at this point almost no telling which characters are going to be in the series, aside from Sauron. And if its going to be canon hes going to start the series as someone no one recognizes whatsoever. Thats not going to be effective, and in terms of drawing franchise fans into the fold itd not going to work. There are far more people out there who know the third age story than who've even read the Silmarillion, let alone enjoyed it, so it would be a massive gamble to do this and have everyone clamoring for Gandalf when the set comes out.

There's just virtually no touchstones in the canon for the story theyre going to be telling, at least not in the direct story from the films abd original books. You've got Galadriel who's barely present, Celeborn who's barely present (and id be surprised if folk remember him from the films tbh), Gandalf whos technically alive at that point but not present, Elrond, and Sauron.

Wotc isn't above making foolish creative decisions but honestly if they want to share this IP, there's no reason not to work backwards from the third age where all the stuff everyone knows happens. It would be a terrible idea to do otherwise.

So I guess in that respect I would be very surprised if this is the coke advertisement you think its going to be. In all other respects it isn't really advertisement considering the films have been out 20 years, abd the books 60.
I tried to read the silmarillion back in middle school...I think I made it 1/2 way through before finally giving up. Holy cow that book was hard to read.

I'll admit I didn't really know anything about the show before this (damn, the advertising is working before it's even been printed). And I agree that they'll definitely want to print a gandalf, frodo, etc who presumably won't be in the show. However, my GUESS is that they'll be printing both characters from the original story plus characters from the show - the former to get people interested, the latter to advertise the property they made a deal with. This likely isn't a secret lair with restricted space. And the timing and art of TWD, to me, showed that they're more than happy to advertise for a currently-running show. Otherwise the timing seems way too coincidental to me. There hasn't been a major LotR adaptation since 2003, and they choose this year to print these? My, what unusual happenstance.

But only time will tell ofc.
Dunharrow wrote:
6 months ago
DirkGently wrote:
6 months ago
Saying "you don't have to play with them" would be a great point...if these were a spin-off product only legal in its own environment. I'd be totally fine if that was how it was. But it's not, these are fully legal in commander, which means by choosing not to play them I'm limiting my card pool, and I can't stop other people from playing them against me. Proxying the cards is the way to avoid limiting my card pool, without being forced to advertise for outside IPs or support business practices I dislike.
I want to focus on this.

Yes, the cards will be legal in Commander, which is the format most of us play predominantly. They will not be standard, pioneer or modern legal. They will be legal in legacy, but unless they push any cards it's unlikely to matter
I feel like we all ought to know how this one goes...
. so they have effectively made these cards only matter for casual play, which is as close as they can do to making it a standalone product that doesn't interact with any existing formats.
Except it's not at all like that AT ALL. They intentionally made it - VERY intentionally, given that there's going to be commander precons - to interface with commander, because commander is their most popular format. Acting like they're trying their best not to mess up existing formats is a baffling position to me.

I suspect they're fine with it throwing it into commander because they've never taken commander seriously. They've always been happy to dump broken stuff into commander. This is in the same vein, imo. The vibe I get is that they see it as a dumping ground.
Now, I get that you don't want to limit your cardpool by boycotting cards from outside IPs. But we are effectively talking about a casual format. This isn't where you need to get a specific card to win a tournament.
I've spent hundreds of dollars per card on singles I've barely used in order to avoid having a restricted card pool. Some of my cards I've probably spent a dollar or more for every second they've actually been on the battlefield, simply because I really enjoy having a complete collection. I realize most people consider commander to be fluffy casual nothing, which is why it's the dumping ground that it is, but I really like taking it seriously. When I build a deck, I really enjoy pushing that concept to the max. WotC is now telling me "If you want to do that, I'm afraid we've moved to a ad-based model."

If these cards end up being mediocre then I'll care less, but I think that's hugely optimistic. Eventually they're going to print the next command tower, the next fierce guardianship, the next arcane signet, except branded as Fortnite. And on that day I shall vomit loud and long.

I think pokken hit the nail on the head. It's just going to be one card at first, but eventually your deck is going to be significantly compromised if you're unwilling to play these cards, as more and more pile up. Especially given that they're exclusively targeted at commander, which wotc has shown it's more than happy to print broken cards for.
So that is my question - why does it bother you so much to just ignore these products? I get that you can proxy them. I could proxy Glenn, the Voice of Calm too. Flavour it as Daxos or something. But I don't want to. I didn't like that SLD. I would rather just ignore it.
I can't just ignore these products, because people will be playing them against me. That's simply not avoidable.

I like optimizing my decks. It's been my hobby for a decade. And now I've got the choice between giving that up or shilling this crap. That's why I'd rather break the binary choice by proxying them as non-IP versions.
I don't get the idea that you want to play with the cards without owning them. But then again, I have never wanted to proxy cards in my life. I just don't like having fake cards. I would rather play sub-optimally than play with proxies.
I haven't used a proxy since college, and I haven't played sub-optimal decks either (within the restriction of what I want the deck to be, of course). Looks like one of those things is going to have to change, though.
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Post by Legend » 6 months ago

pokken wrote:
6 months ago
The space themed stuff is what I really find objectionable :(
It's the tech I don't like. I mean, if it was Spelljammer the Magic set, I'd be totally okay with it.
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Post by DirkGently » 6 months ago

Dunharrow wrote:
6 months ago
Maro talks answers fan who doesn't want to see outside IPs in Magic

I think this basically sums up their attitude - which I understand some of you will disagree with. I will say again that by making it only legal in Legacy (and Vintage) and Commander, it is essentially an isolated product. You will only see the cards played casually. In casual settings, you can decide if you want to play with a card or not.

I also get that there are some environments that have commander tournaments. It's probably the most problematic issue for this kind of magic expansion.
"Some of our fans WANT to play with advertisements!"

I hate the way his response is framed. "Some people want X, who are you to deny it to them?" Dude, YOU'RE the one capitalizing and profiting off the thing they want. You're not exactly an impartial bystander. We both know there are plenty of things people WANT that are detrimental to the health of the game and that you won't print, but you're happy to print these because you can make money off it and you think it's worth the integrity hit for that sweet sweet $$$. If you're so happy to kowtow to the will of the uncritical pop-culture fanboys, why not make these expansions standard legal? Oh right, because you know they cheapen the game and make it look like crap, so you're keeping it away from the formats you actually care about.

I also hate having it compared to regular expansions. As though I was clamoring specifically for a norse world. I don't care what worlds you do, so long as it's good. Don't use my acceptance of the thing you invented as a pass to put advertisements in my game.

Btw, I suspect the only reason they're leaving them legal in other eternal formats is because banning them would undermine their legitimacy in commander and they HAVE to be seen as legitimate in commander. Legacy and Vintage are likely just collateral damage, which they don't care about much anyway since they don't generate $$$.

Also, this is a side argument, but 40K is already its own game. You don't need to imagine controlling (whatever things exist in 40K) because you can already do that in its own game. Kind of a stupid choice for an expansion imo.
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Post by pokken » 6 months ago

Legend wrote:
6 months ago
pokken wrote:
6 months ago
The space themed stuff is what I really find objectionable :(
It's the tech I don't like. I mean, if it was Spelljammer the Magic set, I'd be totally okay with it.
Yeah I think that's mainly what I meant. Although we do have tech in magic, it just tends to be like steam adjacent like kaladesh? :P

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Post by Rumpy5897 » 6 months ago

It's actually kind of funny that I wrote a thing about this topic around the turn of the year, when it was at what may well have been its biggest lull since TWD. Non-Magic IPs are just the next step in the process of fishing for an audience. It's also kind of funny how fierce a discussion this topic causes here, yet the article has all of two comments. Had I posted my thoughts in the form of a forum thread, there would have been infinitely more engagement. Yeah, I plugged this here before when something adjacent came up, but it's still pertinent.

As for this batch of external IP stuff? Eh. Not a fan, but it's not as grating as TWD, both in terms of subject choice and execution. Seems they learned a little from the reaction to the secret lair, plus wouldn't having this sort of noob bait displayed more prominently than in the form of a hyper time limited release be better for engagement? My understanding of 40k is very limited, but I remember a friend told me about it once over a beer - apparently there once was technology, but then knowledge regressed and now relics of that bygone era are treated as revered magical artifacts. That actually sounds like the sort of thing I could imagine in a Magic setting. And yeah, it's gonna be annoying if something they churn out here turns out to become an EDH staple (will this even have the same playtest attention as regular stuff?), but at least hopefully it'll "just" be an external IP item rather than an external IP character in an extremely time limited release.

Also it's funny how D&D in Magic realms was the only way I ever got properly excited for D&D, yet the reverse makes me uncomfortable. Is this an investment thing?
 
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Post by Dunharrow » 6 months ago

Just want to preface my responses that I now better understand your frustration.
DirkGently wrote:
6 months ago
I realize most people consider commander to be fluffy casual nothing, which is why it's the dumping ground that it is, but I really like taking it seriously. When I build a deck, I really enjoy pushing that concept to the max. WotC is now telling me "If you want to do that, I'm afraid we've moved to a ad-based model."
I get it. You want to enjoy the game the way you like to enjoy it. These products sorta affect the way you want to enjoy it. I would say that most commander play is more casual, and thus card choices are just that - choices - not obligations. You can either be less invested in pushing your decks to the max, or you can do the proxy thing.
I can't just ignore these products, because people will be playing them against me. That's simply not avoidable.
But why should your wants dictate what other people are allowed to do? I want to play with Lord of the Rings cards. So I shouldn't because you don't want to play against them? How is that fair?
I like optimizing my decks. It's been my hobby for a decade. And now I've got the choice between giving that up or shilling this crap. That's why I'd rather break the binary choice by proxying them as non-IP versions.
I get it. But please understand that the average player is way less invested.
DirkGently wrote:
6 months ago
"Some of our fans WANT to play with advertisements!"

I hate the way his response is framed. "Some people want X, who are you to deny it to them?" Dude, YOU'RE the one capitalizing and profiting off the thing they want. You're not exactly an impartial bystander. We both know there are plenty of things people WANT that are detrimental to the health of the game and that you won't print, but you're happy to print these because you can make money off it and you think it's worth the integrity hit for that sweet sweet $$$.
First, these products will not be detrimental to the game. Warhammer players can pick up a commander deck now and play with a flavour they like against people with non warhammer magic decks. That's cool. It will 100% be successful.
If you're so happy to kowtow to the will of the uncritical pop-culture fanboys
I don't know if this is a jab at me... but come on. Lord of the Rings is so personally important to my life.. It literally saved my life. So, if I am excited to play with Frodo Baggins it is not up to you to say whether my opinion is uncritical. Please be more polite and understanding.
why not make these expansions standard legal? Oh right, because you know they cheapen the game and make it look like crap, so you're keeping it away from the formats you actually care about.
Because if they are played in competitive tournaments it will make them 'required' for tournament play. That is what they are avoiding. They want people to choose to play with them or choose not to play with them. They don't want people to be forced to play with them. Casual Spikes are not that common, but I feel like that best defines you. You want your casual deck to be as tuned as possible.
I also hate having it compared to regular expansions. As though I was clamoring specifically for a norse world. I don't care what worlds you do, so long as it's good. Don't use my acceptance of the thing you invented as a pass to put advertisements in my game.
But some people hate certain expansions. I have friends that so profoundly dislike Kaladesh that they refuse to play any cards from the block. So even with standard expansions opinions are varied.


Look, I get why you feel so upset by this. Just understand that this is going to grow the game, and that you do not have to play with a card just because it exists.
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Post by Hermes_ » 6 months ago

so turns out WotC makes more money than other parts of Hasbro https://icv2.com/articles/news/view/476 ... y-business
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Post by DirkGently » 6 months ago

Dunharrow wrote:
6 months ago
I get it. You want to enjoy the game the way you like to enjoy it. These products sorta affect the way you want to enjoy it. I would say that most commander play is more casual, and thus card choices are just that - choices - not obligations. You can either be less invested in pushing your decks to the max, or you can do the proxy thing.
It probably feels more like an obligation because of how much I'm invested. If I wasn't so invested there's a chance I'd just quit commander and move to limited only (although that's somewhat difficult since it's not very popular where I live and I don't like playing online as much).

But I'm heavily invested so I'll probably just do the proxy thing.
But why should your wants dictate what other people are allowed to do? I want to play with Lord of the Rings cards. So I shouldn't because you don't want to play against them? How is that fair?
First of all, if these had been silver bordered I would have been fine to let other people play them against me as an opt-in situation.

But more to the point, this is not a solitaire game. What one person is doing will affect the other (you must understand this...sorry, reflexes). Would you apply that same logic to someone who wanted to play a cEDH stax list in a casual game?

And even more to the point, I'm not talking about trying to prevent people from playing them when they exist - that's simply not going to be possible. I'm talking about whether they should exist in the first place - whether wizards should make them, not whether people should play them. Aesthetically LotR is pretty innocuous (depending how closely they match the actors' faces), but I'm sure there are people who would want to play spongebob cards, or fortnite cards, or BTS cards, whatever other dumb joke you might make. For that matter, there are probably people who would love to play hentai cards (I can think of one of my friends in particular...). Do we need to bow to their desires too?

If you want to play with LotR cards, I'd say play the LotR card game. Or the LotR board game, I bet there's a dozen of them. If you want to play with magic cards, though, play magic. Just because you want it doesn't mean it should exist.
First, these products will not be detrimental to the game. Warhammer players can pick up a commander deck now and play with a flavour they like against people with non warhammer magic decks. That's cool. It will 100% be successful.
It will be successful because it will make money and that is the only thing WotC cares about.

If it was limited to occasionally playing off-the-shelf precons on occasion (again, as an opt-in) I'd be totally fine with that. But that's not what's going to happen - if they ever print strong cards (and they will) they'll be in tons of decks because most people want to optimize more than they care about the immersion or integrity of the game. Instead of losing to craterhoof, we'll be losing to Pickle Rick. Can't wait.
If you're so happy to kowtow to the will of the uncritical pop-culture fanboys
I don't know if this is a jab at me... but come on. Lord of the Rings is so personally important to my life.. It literally saved my life. So, if I am excited to play with Frodo Baggins it is not up to you to say whether my opinion is uncritical. Please be more polite and understanding.
It was not, and I apologize if it came off that way.

If I had to point to the sort of person it was aimed at, it'd be the sort of person who unironically enjoyed Star Wars episode 9 (note: this is a joke, I don't actually mean to attack anyone).
Because if they are played in competitive tournaments it will make them 'required' for tournament play. That is what they are avoiding. They want people to choose to play with them or choose not to play with them. They don't want people to be forced to play with them. Casual Spikes are not that common, but I feel like that best defines you. You want your casual deck to be as tuned as possible.
While not everyone takes it as far as I do, I think you're underestimating the degree to which people want to optimize. When I look at decklists on EDHrec, I don't see very many casual theme decks. Basically any commander that makes a 2-card infinite combo, that second card is going to be in a high percentage of decks, usually well over half of them, and that's also what I tend to experience IRL. The main thing preventing people from optimizing imo are budget and a lack of skill, with self-restraint a distant third. I don't think most people will hesitate to put a strong card into their deck if they have access to it, regardless of the IP.
But some people hate certain expansions. I have friends that so profoundly dislike Kaladesh that they refuse to play any cards from the block. So even with standard expansions opinions are varied.
I don't usually see the top posts of the MTG and EDH reddit being rage posts when a normal expansion comes out.

It's fine to hate an expansion, but at least the primary goal of a normal expansion is to please the players, even if it might fail for some. They knew this was going to piss off a huge number of the playerbase, but they did it anyway, because at the end of the day, people who already have their collections aren't making WotC any money. It's all about catering to new players, existing players be damned.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

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Post by Hermes_ » 6 months ago

@DirkGently you have reason to be concerned
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Post by Hermes_ » 6 months ago

As to why not silver border:







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Post by WizardMN » 6 months ago

@DirkGently
It is strange to read your reaction to these and see things like "huge number of the playerbase" and "the fanbase told them to %$#% off". It comes across as exceptionally hyperbolic that sort of undermines your point. I mean, do you have empirical evidence to suggest that a majority of existing players were riled up enough about TWD to even get close to those being accurate statements? I know I didn't care about it to put myself in either camp of them being good or bad; surely you're not suggesting your opinions are meant to be indicative of everyone else's?

I know there was backlash but there always is. Everything Wizards does has naysayers. There were certainly more people being vocal about TWD but even then it didn't seem like there was a consensus about what the exact problem was. The two big ones were 1)not wanting crossovers and 2)Negan being inappropriate. So even among those complaints, it still wasn't all about the fact that it was a crossover.

I happen to enjoy Lord of the Rings. I am looking forward to seeing what cards they come out with for that collection. I know nothing about 40k and I have no real opinion on it either way. That is, I don't care enough about it just like I didn't care about Kaladesh, Kaldheim, Amonkhet, Eldraine, or Ixalan. And I did look forward to Zendikar only to find out that I didn't care about the lore of it after it was released.

I have been finding that I don't often care about the lore behind things anymore so having cards set in another established lore doesn't really take me out of the Magic bubble. If anything, it does draw me into things a little more since I care about LotR lore far more than I do about Magic.

I find MaRo's responses to at least be acceptable. That is, people *do* want things like this. And, as was pointed out earlier, this has the potential to grow the Magic fanbase as a whole. Perhaps it is too much for established players and this causes them to leave. But if these ventures bring more people in and those people stick around long(-ish) term, it seems fine to me. Granted, the tenure of these new players is unknown so it is possible they simply stop playing shortly after starting, so there is an inherent risk there, But I know I am not quite as upset about this as other enfranchised players seem to be and I would welcome any new commander players especially, regardless of *why* they started playing.

If anyone doesn't want to play with these new cards due to a belief in adhering to the core game, I get it and I wouldn't fault anyone for doing so. They have that choice. But, for anyone that doesn't want to play with anyone else because they play with these new cards, well, %$#% 'em.

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Post by pokken » 6 months ago

Looks like we're getting blown up by demolisher cannons and plasma rifles gents

I'm not sure if I'm upset. It surely feels like there is good there too in expanding the playerbase. I've felt for a while like magic is fading in popularity.

I guess more peeved that I might have to play a jetbike in my deck.

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Post by Dunharrow » 6 months ago

pokken wrote:
6 months ago
Looks like we're getting blown up by demolisher cannons and plasma rifles gents

I'm not sure if I'm upset. It surely feels like there is good there too in expanding the playerbase. I've felt for a while like magic is fading in popularity.

I guess more peeved that I might have to play a jetbike in my deck.
Generally speaking, the more we see something the more we go from "I hate this" to "this is fine". I have not seen a single Walking Dead card played, but I find myself just not caring about it anymore. I was upset about the method of distribution at the time... but now whatever, we've moved on.

Magic is also growing in popularity. Not sure if you read it, but Magic and D&D are the best performing games for Hasbro. Magic pulled off a record-setting year.
This is all with the Pandemic.

I imagine most of the growth is with Arena... but if playing for free can get people into the game, then I imagine in-store play will also increase when the pandemic ends.

I suspect that if you decide to play a jetbike in your deck, you will hate it at first... but after playing for a while and seeing more of these sets come out, you will stop focusing on it.

The MtG community tends to hate new things, and excepting Megamorph I think we usually change our minds after a while.
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Post by DirkGently » 6 months ago

WizardMN wrote:
6 months ago
@DirkGently
It is strange to read your reaction to these and see things like "huge number of the playerbase" and "the fanbase told them to %$#% off". It comes across as exceptionally hyperbolic that sort of undermines your point. I mean, do you have empirical evidence to suggest that a majority of existing players were riled up enough about TWD to even get close to those being accurate statements? I know I didn't care about it to put myself in either camp of them being good or bad; surely you're not suggesting your opinions are meant to be indicative of everyone else's?
There were several polls online in various places over TWD and whether they should be banned etc. To my knowledge they were all starkly in favor of banning them and/or against the product.

That's not perfect information obviously, but it's about all I can realistically get access to. tbh I'm skeptical that WotC can realistically get much data from the unplugged casual players but who knows.
I know there was backlash but there always is. Everything Wizards does has naysayers. There were certainly more people being vocal about TWD but even then it didn't seem like there was a consensus about what the exact problem was. The two big ones were 1)not wanting crossovers and 2)Negan being inappropriate. So even among those complaints, it still wasn't all about the fact that it was a crossover.
I think people see something like TWD and get an immediate bad gut feeling - how they consciously justify that bad feeling depends on the person. I've gone through a few different reasons myself, some tied more to it being a secret lair (which doesn't sound like it'll be true for all future releases, though likely some) and my dislike for those. But I think the root of the bad feeling is that magic is using something that used to be exclusively for the enhancement of the game - the characters and world-building on the cards themselves - and instead using that for marketing purposes. It's corporate america monetizing the eyeball-time you spend playing magic - with the cards you already purchased. They see us looking at our cards and enjoying them and saying "hang on, we can sell that ad space to Jeff Bezos."

Yeah, it feels really gross.
I happen to enjoy Lord of the Rings. I am looking forward to seeing what cards they come out with for that collection. I know nothing about 40k and I have no real opinion on it either way. That is, I don't care enough about it just like I didn't care about Kaladesh, Kaldheim, Amonkhet, Eldraine, or Ixalan. And I did look forward to Zendikar only to find out that I didn't care about the lore of it after it was released.
The flavor of Kaladesh, Kaldheim, etc was not an advertisement. Of course you don't have to like it, but it was chosen for your enjoyment, to sell you itself. It wasn't chosen to sell you on another product.
I have been finding that I don't often care about the lore behind things anymore so having cards set in another established lore doesn't really take me out of the Magic bubble. If anything, it does draw me into things a little more since I care about LotR lore far more than I do about Magic.
I'll agree that I never really cared much about the magic lore, but at least it wasn't an advertisement.

As I've said before, I'd be fine with outside IP that wasn't trying to sell a current commercial property to me. Magic IP has never been sacred to me. Part of why I find "well, we're not making it part of real magic lore" to be a pretty meaningless defense.
I find MaRo's responses to at least be acceptable. That is, people *do* want things like this. And, as was pointed out earlier, this has the potential to grow the Magic fanbase as a whole. Perhaps it is too much for established players and this causes them to leave. But if these ventures bring more people in and those people stick around long(-ish) term, it seems fine to me. Granted, the tenure of these new players is unknown so it is possible they simply stop playing shortly after starting, so there is an inherent risk there, But I know I am not quite as upset about this as other enfranchised players seem to be and I would welcome any new commander players especially, regardless of *why* they started playing.
I wouldn't blame new players for getting into the game/format because of the IP. My ire is directed 100% at wizards for creating them in the first place, not the players.
If anyone doesn't want to play with these new cards due to a belief in adhering to the core game, I get it and I wouldn't fault anyone for doing so. They have that choice. But, for anyone that doesn't want to play with anyone else because they play with these new cards, well, %$#% 'em.
I don't have anything against the players themselves, but I fear the game is going to look less and less like something I want to be a part of.

At least there's always draft. That's probably not changing anytime soon.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

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Post by Toshi » 6 months ago

Can we make this a seperate thread or something? It's very interesting, but a bit much for the original thread, i guess.

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Post by materpillar » 6 months ago

RxPhantom wrote:
6 months ago
This is all very enlightening to me, as I know little of 40K outside of it's basic conceit and aesthetics. Are you sure that this sportsmanship thing actually helped more than it hurt? It sounds like it it rewarded pettiness.
I think it did. I never played in tournaments but that was my understanding. Like I can't fully verbalize to you how poorly balanced this game was and it's extremely hard to figure out unless you sink a ton of time into it and do a bunch of math that the average person just isn't interested in. You know how hard it is to Rule 0 in commander? Now throw in the difficulty that every model takes hours upon hours of loving time and commitment to assemble and paint. Also, the cooler bigger models tend to be more overpowered. It becomes a huge mess trying to get even causal games because some models are Squires and some are Jace, the Mind Sculptor. Unless you spent hours reading articles on the internet you probably can't tell which is which. Hence a lot of non-games happen.

The game design also always favored doing as much damage as fast as possible to cripple the other army before they could retaliate. This incentivized very snowbally games.

I'm bashing it a lot but because when it was bad it was bad. But also when it was great it was sooooo great. Here's all my painted models. I'm really proud of them.
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I really loved stealth suits!
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Post by RxPhantom » 6 months ago

I made a new thread so this topic no longer dominates the Off-Topic forum.
Can you name all of the creature types with at least 20 cards? Try my Sporcle Quiz! Last Updated: 7/2/21 (Modern Horizons 2)

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