[Off-Topic] Community Chat Thread

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tstorm823
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Post by tstorm823 » 7 months ago

As long as they print cards that are mechanically interesting, I don't particularly care what IP they dip into. I've never had less fun playing a board game because somebody owned the Nintendo/Disney edition.
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Post by DirkGently » 7 months ago

Hermes_ wrote:
7 months ago
So the Great Gatsby would be okay then? or anything on this list for that matter: https://mymodernmet.com/2021-public-domain/
Honestly? It'd be weird, but I never really cared about magic storyline or anything. So long as it's not tied into promoting some upcoming adaptation or anything, I could roll with it. Like the neo-tokyo kamigawa thing, I really don't mind so long as it's not an advertisement.

Whenever someone plays a UB card against me, it's going to feel like a popup ad going -

"hey, we notice you like magic the gathering, have you tried:
1) Watching the walking dead?
2) Streaming LotR on Amazon Prime?
3) Playing Warhammer 40K?
4) a refreshing Coca Cola?"

And that's to say nothing of how much it infuriates me that I've spent tens of thousands of dollars over a decade to build my commander collection so I can optimize any deck I want to build - and now if I want that to continue to be true, I have to purchase and play those popup ads.

Hang on, just a little more... :sick:
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Post by RxPhantom » 7 months ago

pokken wrote:
7 months ago
I do kinda hope the rc bans this nonsense and preserves us from having rule 0 convos about whether we want space marines and drop pods and what not but if not it prob won't be any worse than the current golos meta where every damn going is slowly but surely drifting toward cedh.

Still I think I'd rather people ask permission than me having to ask them not to play space elves
DirkGently wrote:
7 months ago
Hermes_ wrote:
7 months ago
So,does WotC/hasbro own The Arabian Nights ip? Asking for my memory
I assume you're being rhetorical, but I personally don't care one iota if WotC wants to copy from public domain works. What I don't like is my cards being advertisements. It's sleazy and it's distracting and it's gross.

Ban+boycott the %$#% triangle.

At first blush, I'd agree about banning them all. But someone out there is excited about all this, and others may be brought into Magic because of it. I'd rather not alienate new players with what they'll view as arbitrary gatekeeping.

I do hate all of this, though. I'm trying to keep my cool and be pragmatic, but I really, really don't like this. At least four non-Magic IPs will have black border cards by the end of next year, and that's not counting Godzilla. It won't take very many years of this for Commander games especially to just be a weird soup of IPs.

I guess a theme of my decks going forward will be Magic: the Gathering.
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Post by DirkGently » 7 months ago

RxPhantom wrote:
7 months ago
At first blush, I'd agree about banning them all. But someone out there is excited about all this, and others may be brought into Magic because of it. I'd rather not alienate new players with what they'll view as arbitrary gatekeeping.
That's why I think the only good solution is for these to be opt-in, like silver borders. I don't think I've ever rejected someone with a silver bordered commander, even those cringy MLP cards. I'd happily let someone play with whatever IP they like so long as I'm not being forced to. But WotC strongarming everyone into allowing them as default makes me very explicitly NOT want to play against them. Especially when the fanbase explicitly told them to %$#% off, and their response was basically "we hear you, but also we don't give a %$#% about what you want, we only care about next quarter's profits so we're just gonna go ahead and totally ignore you."

Imo the RC should say that they're not technically legal, but people are encouraged to allow people to play them if they want, basically. So basically what silver border already is, but more explicitly.

The related option would be to split the format into triangle-allowed and triangle-disallowed variants. Though that seems likely to be a tenuous relationship.
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Post by benjameenbear » 7 months ago

RxPhantom wrote:
7 months ago

I guess a theme of my decks going forward will be Magic: the Gathering.
I'm DYING. Lol/cry. When the theme of your deck is, y'know, the ORIGINAL GAME CONCEPT, that's a sad panda face.

While I can't say I care too much about these other IP's popping in because no one in my playgroup uses them and most of the cards are garbage for cEDH style play (which is my preference), it's sad to see how MTG has moved away from truly original concepts. Inserting existing IP's into the MTG universe in any fashion dilutes the magic (pun fully intended) of what this game means to me.

I think of the Judgment, Onslaught and Mirrodin blocks (where I was first introduced to MTG) and I remember being utterly captivated by the art and the mechanics of the cards. Having never been seriously committed to D&D, these fantastical creatures sparked a huge creation & imagination element in my budding adolescence and I STILL have fond memories of playing janky 60 card piles where my favorite card was Skinthinner in my Zombie tribal deck.

Oh WOTC, where'd you go? I miss you so, it feels like it's been forever, since you been gone...

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Post by folding_music » 7 months ago

I think I'm gonna print out some of my fave custom cards and jam those <3 can't be any less MTG congruent than a detachment of Blood Angels eh

I don't view this development particularly apocalyptically but it's sad that all these properties are just gonna be each other's mascots for a while. Crossovers never improve a property and im not a fan who's looking for service, even though I love reading LOTR and have fond memories of painting an Eldar army incredibly badly giggle

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Post by RxPhantom » 7 months ago

Another angle of this that I've been working out in my head has been WotC's failures in the story/worldbuilding department in the last six or seven years. The Gatewatch was a lame attempt at an Avengers-style team-up. Most new planes lately are predictable pastiches of some trope. For instance, Amonkhet was Ancient Egypt World, and it didn't do anything cool with it; it looked exactly like I thought it would. Kaldheim feels the same way. Then, they take their cool, compelling planes, like Zendikar, Ravnica and Innistrad, and run them into the ground. Maybe they wouldn't need other IPs leeching into Magic if they were doing better in this department.

I'm really not this pessimistic about things normally.
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Post by tstorm823 » 7 months ago

folding_music wrote:
7 months ago
Crossovers never improve a property.
I've enjoyed Lord of the Rings Risk. People really like Kingdom Hearts. Smash Bros? Marvel vs Capcom?
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Post by Dunharrow » 7 months ago

tstorm823 wrote:
7 months ago
As long as they print cards that are mechanically interesting, I don't particularly care what IP they dip into. I've never had less fun playing a board game because somebody owned the Nintendo/Disney edition.
I love this commend, but I also think it misses the core issue most people are having. I can play my Simpsons Monopoly or play Lord of the Rings Risk or Super Mario Brothers Chess... but I am not mixing and matching these special editions with the base games.
To me, it is more like when Kratos was in Mortal Kombat and they gave an in-story reason for him to be there.

To address everyones complaints, though:
It's always a bit funky when they cross IPs. At least with MtG they are not making these other IPs part of the story.
I like that it will bring more awareness of the MtG brand. More players and a better chance for an actual tv series to come out.
People like me who are huge fans of an IP can also buy the product and be happy. I have always wanted a Lord of the Rings MtG product. Like, since I started playing ten years ago.

It will be weird when I play The One Ring in Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest. I know that. But we will get used to it. I don't even think twice when Mothra hits the table.

I hope we don't have a situation where Sam Gamgee is the best creature in Legacy. That would be weird.
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Post by tstorm823 » 7 months ago

RxPhantom wrote:
7 months ago
Another angle of this that I've been working out in my head has been WotC's failures in the story/worldbuilding department in the last six or seven years. The Gatewatch was a lame attempt at an Avengers-style team-up. Most new planes lately are predictable pastiches of some trope. For instance, Amonkhet was Ancient Egypt World, and it didn't do anything cool with it; it looked exactly like I thought it would. Kaldheim feels the same way. Then, they take their cool, compelling planes, like Zendikar, Ravnica and Innistrad, and run them into the ground. Maybe they wouldn't need other IPs leeching into Magic if they were doing better in this department.

I'm really not this pessimistic about things normally.
Here's the optimistic take for you: your expectations are incredibly high. "My card game doesn't have compelling and original storytelling" is not a complaint people would make in a different context than Magic: the Gathering.

Edit for clarity: we've been spoiled by this amazing game at times. It's reasonable to not always have to be the best in every aspect.
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Post by folding_music » 7 months ago

tstorm823 wrote:
7 months ago
folding_music wrote:
7 months ago
Crossovers never improve a property.
I've enjoyed Lord of the Rings Risk. People really like Kingdom Hearts. Smash Bros? Marvel vs Capcom?
you're right! But if the Marvel vs Capcom partnership ends one day, they won't have enriched each other. They came together to make a fast-paced fighter with fun jazz music which exists as its own thing, and that's neat, but nothing's been furthered!

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Post by DirkGently » 7 months ago

As much fun as it is to doomscroll reddit and vent my bile in long all-caps posts, I think we all recognize that there's no chance we have any real way to stop this disaster from happening. TWD was the canary they threw into the coal mine, and we killed that damn bird so hard it was red paste, but that didn't even make them hesitate. Like, right out of the gate it's "we revealed an ExCiTinG expansion". Don't even try to make any concessions to the playerbase they know this will piss off. Absolutely zero %$#% given. If we don't buy it, someone else will.

Likewise, the RC had the chance to try to throw a wrench in the gears during TWD and they didn't. There's realistically no reason to think it's going to happen this time. Especially not with WotC literally making commander decks this time. If they didn't run it by the RC already, then the only reason is because they really don't care about the RC and will happily grab the reins if they make any attempt to derail WotCs new money train.

So here's my alternative solution - seize the means of production, baby. Whenever WotC makes some new awful UB garbage, put the card into a custom card generator, change the name, take some unused magic artwork (or possibly a cross-stitch from your grandmother's house, I really don't care), and proxy that baby. Every. Single. Time. Maybe we can harness the power of those counterfeiters and use it for good (obviously these wouldn't be counterfeits since it wouldn't actually look like any wotc-printed card). It'd be even better if we could organize a "canon" proxy that gets widespread use, instead of everyone's individual interpretations, but anything's better than the WotC version.

I doubt it'll actually cut into their profits, but maybe it can cut down on this cringe. I worry that I'll be suffering from cringe overload if this keeps happening.
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Flux Decks
Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
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Post by pokken » 7 months ago

So wasn't Arabian nights kinda the first attempt at this? And it is a pretty sick set all things considered. I find myself pretty interested in the fantasy adjacent stuff.

The space themed stuff is what I really find objectionable :(

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Post by Dunharrow » 7 months ago

RxPhantom wrote:
7 months ago
Another angle of this that I've been working out in my head has been WotC's failures in the story/worldbuilding department in the last six or seven years. The Gatewatch was a lame attempt at an Avengers-style team-up. Most new planes lately are predictable pastiches of some trope. For instance, Amonkhet was Ancient Egypt World, and it didn't do anything cool with it; it looked exactly like I thought it would. Kaldheim feels the same way. Then, they take their cool, compelling planes, like Zendikar, Ravnica and Innistrad, and run them into the ground. Maybe they wouldn't need other IPs leeching into Magic if they were doing better in this department.

I'm really not this pessimistic about things normally.
I mean, you are entitled to your opinion but I would not suggest taking that as fact. I think the creative team has improved a bit in the last couple years. The story writing is still cringy, but I will address your thoughts individually.
-Gatewatch as Avengers team-up: I think the are tying into a bigger trope of the good guys banding together to fight evil. I mean Lord of the Rings was written in the 50s and has the Fellowship. The Order of the Phoenix in Harry Potter. You can also look within Magic at The Weatherlight crew. This is not just an Avengers thing.
- Amonkhet - I liked the design, actually. It was more of a Bolas world with an Egyptian theme, but I really liked a lot of the creative decisions. Not sure what you were looking for.
- Kaldheim - I really like the 10 realms and the creatures they chose for them. Again, not sure what you would have liked. Loved Vorinclex as Grendl.
Agree that they went too far in wrecking some of their worlds, but Zendikar Rising showed that they could bring the world back so I am not worried for Innistrad and Ravnica.

I think they need 1-2 more staff on the creative team to make their stories a bit stronger. They have done a lot in the last few years and we never got an incomprehensible mess like Kamigawa.
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Post by Dunharrow » 7 months ago

DirkGently wrote:
7 months ago
As much fun as it is to doomscroll reddit and vent my bile in long all-caps posts, I think we all recognize that there's no chance we have any real way to stop this disaster from happening. TWD was the canary they threw into the coal mine, and we killed that damn bird so hard it was red paste, but that didn't even make them hesitate. Like, right out of the gate it's "we revealed an ExCiTinG expansion". Don't even try to make any concessions to the playerbase they know this will piss off. Absolutely zero %$#% given. If we don't buy it, someone else will.

Likewise, the RC had the chance to try to throw a wrench in the gears during TWD and they didn't. There's realistically no reason to think it's going to happen this time. Especially not with WotC literally making commander decks this time. If they didn't run it by the RC already, then the only reason is because they really don't care about the RC and will happily grab the reins if they make any attempt to derail WotCs new money train.

So here's my alternative solution - seize the means of production, baby. Whenever WotC makes some new awful UB garbage, put the card into a custom card generator, change the name, take some unused magic artwork (or possibly a cross-stitch from your grandmother's house, I really don't care), and proxy that baby. Every. Single. Time. Maybe we can harness the power of those counterfeiters and use it for good (obviously these wouldn't be counterfeits since it wouldn't actually look like any wotc-printed card). It'd be even better if we could organize a "canon" proxy that gets widespread use, instead of everyone's individual interpretations, but anything's better than the WotC version.

I doubt it'll actually cut into their profits, but maybe it can cut down on this cringe. I worry that I'll be suffering from cringe overload if this keeps happening.
Look if you want to proxy these cards and put a different name on them, I guess you can. I don't see how that is better than just playing with Gandalf on your board.
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Post by DirkGently » 7 months ago

Dunharrow wrote:
7 months ago
Look if you want to proxy these cards and put a different name on them, I guess you can. I don't see how that is better than just playing with Gandalf on your board.
1) I don't have to play an advertisement.
2) I don't have to subsidize WotC's terrible decisions while still having access to the same cards.
3) I DON'T HAVE TO PLAY AN ADVERTISEMENT.
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Flux Decks
Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
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Post by pokken » 7 months ago

I am trying to envision how I will feel when they print an amazing card for Ephara that is like....Flying Tyranid Warrior or Eldar Jetbike or something. My first guess is pretty annoyed.

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Post by RxPhantom » 7 months ago

Dunharrow wrote:
7 months ago
RxPhantom wrote:
7 months ago
Another angle of this that I've been working out in my head has been WotC's failures in the story/worldbuilding department in the last six or seven years. The Gatewatch was a lame attempt at an Avengers-style team-up. Most new planes lately are predictable pastiches of some trope. For instance, Amonkhet was Ancient Egypt World, and it didn't do anything cool with it; it looked exactly like I thought it would. Kaldheim feels the same way. Then, they take their cool, compelling planes, like Zendikar, Ravnica and Innistrad, and run them into the ground. Maybe they wouldn't need other IPs leeching into Magic if they were doing better in this department.

I'm really not this pessimistic about things normally.
I mean, you are entitled to your opinion but I would not suggest taking that as fact. I think the creative team has improved a bit in the last couple years. The story writing is still cringy, but I will address your thoughts individually.
-Gatewatch as Avengers team-up: I think the are tying into a bigger trope of the good guys banding together to fight evil. I mean Lord of the Rings was written in the 50s and has the Fellowship. The Order of the Phoenix in Harry Potter. You can also look within Magic at The Weatherlight crew. This is not just an Avengers thing.
- Amonkhet - I liked the design, actually. It was more of a Bolas world with an Egyptian theme, but I really liked a lot of the creative decisions. Not sure what you were looking for.
- Kaldheim - I really like the 10 realms and the creatures they chose for them. Again, not sure what you would have liked. Loved Vorinclex as Grendl.
Agree that they went too far in wrecking some of their worlds, but Zendikar Rising showed that they could bring the world back so I am not worried for Innistrad and Ravnica.

I think they need 1-2 more staff on the creative team to make their stories a bit stronger. They have done a lot in the last few years and we never got an incomprehensible mess like Kamigawa.
- Sure not just the Avengers, but it felt awfully similar to what has become the biggest cinematic franchise in history. It felt ham-fisted though.
- Amonkhet felt very one-note to me. It just wasn't very exciting. The world felt very small.
- Kaldheim provoked similar apathy, but I see a lot more potential there. It's overstuffed and could've benefited from being stretched out over two sets.
- When I say that they've run their best planes into the ground, I mean because of repetition. In the most recent (and I guess upcoming) returns to Zendikar, Ravnica, and Innistrad, I didn't feel like we had been gone long enough to miss them. I left the the game during Mirrodin block because of life stuff, but I returned for Scars and was immediately captivated. I liked Zendikar quite a bit, but then came Innistrad. That set's overall quality in almost every conceivable metric has become the gold standard to which I compare all others. Tarkir got very close, and Kaladesh was cool. Oh, and Ixalan had great worldbuilding and several good stories.

Hmmm...outside of the Gatewatch/Bolas story, maybe I've overhyped my dissatisfaction...somewhat.
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Post by tstorm823 » 7 months ago

DirkGently wrote:
7 months ago
1) I don't have to play an advertisement.
a) By playing Magic, any Magic at all, you are beyond an advertisement. You are half the product. The game does not exist without people to play with, you are already a human advertisement for Magic: The Gathering.
b) Would you seriously be upset if by playing Gandalf you introduced someone to The Lord of the Rings? Is that a bad thing? Is people sharing the IP they like a bad thing?
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Post by Dunharrow » 7 months ago

DirkGently wrote:
7 months ago
Dunharrow wrote:
7 months ago
Look if you want to proxy these cards and put a different name on them, I guess you can. I don't see how that is better than just playing with Gandalf on your board.
1) I don't have to play an advertisement.
2) I don't have to subsidize WotC's terrible decisions while still having access to the same cards.
3) I DON'T HAVE TO PLAY AN ADVERTISEMENT.
1. You don't have to play with them. That's been Wizards MO for years now - different products for different people.
2. To me that's like saying you want to boycott Nestle so you stop buying Nestle drinks but continue buying Nestle chocolate. If you want to send a message to WOTC it's not by avoiding this one product. But I understand that you don't want to pay into a product you don't like. I very much doubt I will buy Warhammer Commander decks. I don't know the first thing about warhammer.
What I don't understand is that you want to play with the cards you don't like. It's like saying you hate Apple products so you are going to steal an iPhone rather than buy one. If your convictions are so strong against these cards I just don't get proxying them.

I get it - people are upset. What if Bilbo Baggins is a Commander staple? What if Faramir is a unique combo card? You don't want to have to buy this product to play magic. You don't want to have to play with other IPs. But the truth is, you are not obligated to play these cards. You can ignore them. If you hate the idea of playing with Lord of the Rings characters, then don't play with them.

But honestly, do whatever you want.

Y'all just need to acknowledge that this will grow the brand.
And that some people are very excited about this.

Every other big franchise has crossed IPs. I am sure there are people that don't like Mario and Link duking it out with Pikachu and Fox in super smash bros. I am sure there are competitive Mortal Kombat players that hated seeing DC characters in game. Or how about Fornite mashing every IP known to man? Magic is actually pretty late in doing this.

You can dislike it.
But it is not a mistake for them to do this. It will grow the brand. People will like it.
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Post by Dunharrow » 7 months ago

pokken wrote:
7 months ago
I am trying to envision how I will feel when they print an amazing card for Ephara that is like....Flying Tyranid Warrior or Eldar Jetbike or something. My first guess is pretty annoyed.
One of two things will happen
- You will stop caring and play with the card
- You will not play the card and just keep playing with your amazing deck

I mean, if you are playing in a cEDH tournament and need the extra power, I can see it being frustrating.

Not sure what to say to that.
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Post by lyonhaert » 7 months ago

This certainly isn't off-topic anymore. I wouldn't mind if y'all started a separate thread for it.

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Post by pokken » 7 months ago

Dunharrow wrote:
7 months ago
pokken wrote:
7 months ago
I am trying to envision how I will feel when they print an amazing card for Ephara that is like....Flying Tyranid Warrior or Eldar Jetbike or something. My first guess is pretty annoyed.
One of two things will happen
- You will stop caring and play with the card
- You will not play the card and just keep playing with your amazing deck

I mean, if you are playing in a cEDH tournament and need the extra power, I can see it being frustrating.

Not sure what to say to that.
I guess, the thing is that I'm not really that interested in optimizing for power but for play experience and aesthetics, so there's probably a middle ground in there where I suck it up and play the card despite not liking the art or aesthetic and then hate it every time I see it. Or where it's a continuous source of mild annoyance especially as the aesthetically unpleasant cards that I'd like to play build up in number.

How many space marines is too many in my deck? I feel like right now that's zero, but it would be quite irksome if there wound up being 5 or 6 I wanted to play.

Because cards keep existing it's not like you necessarily reach a 'completely over it' moment. I bet there are a lot of players out there who periodically get bugged that they can't afford a Timetwister for their deck or whatever.

If I was a person who just got over stuff completely I doubt I'd still have much drive to expand and maintain my decks :P

(just as an example I still think a lot about whether I would like to play Monastery Mentor as a focus in my Ephara deck - I have one, so it's not availability that's the issue, it's just a pretty hard card to build around. But I still think about it. If there was a Landspeeder that was great in Ephara, it would pop into my head regularly for sure :P)

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Post by DirkGently » 7 months ago

tstorm823 wrote:
7 months ago
a) By playing Magic, any Magic at all, you are beyond an advertisement. You are half the product. The game does not exist without people to play with, you are already a human advertisement for Magic: The Gathering.
b) Would you seriously be upset if by playing Gandalf you introduced someone to The Lord of the Rings? Is that a bad thing? Is people sharing the IP they like a bad thing?
a) "everything is an advertisement for itself" is kind of a frivolous point. I signed up for Magic when I decided to play Magic, that much is unavoidable. I did not sign up for any of this other stuff.

b) Here's the thing, though - if I want to play the cards, I'm forced to "share the IP"....EVEN IF I DON'T LIKE IT. And if those cards are powerful, I'm being forced to choose between sacrificing my deck's potential and promoting an IP I may actively dislike.

A little bit of nuance - if the LotR cards are totally disconnected from the upcoming amazon TV show (and to a lesser extent, the 2000s movies) then I'll find it a lot less cringy, but given the timing I think it's pretty damn likely that it'll be promoting the show and not the original books. Honestly given how old and already ubiquitous the books are, if it was linked solely to the books it wouldn't feel very advertisement-y to me since it's functionally pretty close to the public domain. But that's basically irrelevant when we've also got The Walking Dead - a show I despise - and Warhammer - a property I know basically nothing about (but it looks pretty cringy from the outside tbh), both of which are very actively promoted. One slightly lesser problem doesn't make the worse problems go away.
1. You don't have to play with them. That's been Wizards MO for years now - different products for different people.
2. To me that's like saying you want to boycott Nestle so you stop buying Nestle drinks but continue buying Nestle chocolate. If you want to send a message to WOTC it's not by avoiding this one product. But I understand that you don't want to pay into a product you don't like. I very much doubt I will buy Warhammer Commander decks. I don't know the first thing about warhammer.
What I don't understand is that you want to play with the cards you don't like. It's like saying you hate Apple products so you are going to steal an iPhone rather than buy one. If your convictions are so strong against these cards I just don't get proxying them.

I get it - people are upset. What if Bilbo Baggins is a Commander staple? What if Faramir is a unique combo card? You don't want to have to buy this product to play magic. You don't want to have to play with other IPs. But the truth is, you are not obligated to play these cards. You can ignore them. If you hate the idea of playing with Lord of the Rings characters, then don't play with them.

But honestly, do whatever you want.

Y'all just need to acknowledge that this will grow the brand.
And that some people are very excited about this.

Every other big franchise has crossed IPs. I am sure there are people that don't like Mario and Link duking it out with Pikachu and Fox in super smash bros. I am sure there are competitive Mortal Kombat players that hated seeing DC characters in game. Or how about Fornite mashing every IP known to man? Magic is actually pretty late in doing this.

You can dislike it.
But it is not a mistake for them to do this. It will grow the brand. People will like it.
Secret Lair - The Walking Dead was their best selling secret lair.
Saying "you don't have to play with them" would be a great point...if these were a spin-off product only legal in its own environment. I'd be totally fine if that was how it was. But it's not, these are fully legal in commander, which means by choosing not to play them I'm limiting my card pool, and I can't stop other people from playing them against me. Proxying the cards is the way to avoid limiting my card pool, without being forced to advertise for outside IPs or support business practices I dislike.

The nestle example doesn't strike me as apt. The reason people boycott nestle is because they think the whole company is corrupt. I've got nothing against the normal set releases. I'll happily continue to support those. And while I think WotC is ignoring their customers and valuing short-term greed over the integrity and long-term health of the game, I don't think they're EVIL, in the way that people argue Nestle is evil. I don't think giving them my money is going to cause harm to anyone else. I don't want them to go out of business.

Your examples for other crossovers are also not apt because they don't change the original games. Ok, mario fights pikachu in SSB or whatever, but Mario isn't suddenly showing up in the latest pokemon game, nor is pikachu showing up in the latest mario game. If magic wanted to put Jace into SSB I couldn't possibly care less. If they wanted to make a spin-off, self-contained game - even one that followed the basic magic rules - that involved outside IP, I also wouldn't mind. Where I have a problem is that we've already got a game, and now this external IP is being forced inside of it. If this was always what magic had been...honestly I probably would have quit a long, long time ago. I feel like I got sucked in and invested in a game that seemed to have integrity, only to be exploited more and more over the past few years. Hence the lobster joke earlier. SSB has always been a crossover game. If you didn't like the crossover aspect, you never started playing. LEGO Star Wars Monopoly or whatever is a standalone game that doesn't change the original version. These examples are NOT the same thing as what's happening to magic. Not at all.
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Post by materpillar » 7 months ago

I'm going to be honest, I don't really care about Secret Lairs. When done well they're an awesome addition to the game. When done poorly, they're destructive and parasitic. That's not what I'm here for now... this is what I'm here for.
DirkGently wrote:
7 months ago
and Warhammer - a property I know basically nothing about (but it looks pretty cringy from the outside tbh), both of which are very actively promoted.
I played a bunch of WH40k in college. I own a touch over 5,000 points of Tau models (a normal warhammer 40k game is usually 1,500 to 2,000). The game is actually pretty terrible, from a game design perspective. It is even easier for spikes to ruin a game of WH40k than it is for them to ruin a game of EDH. The game's balance is pretty awful (although they've gotten a bit better about in more recently I think). Basically the entire game is propped up by the really cool universe, lore and prettiness of the models.

The setting is basically Innistrad, except orders of magnitude worse and with future guns. Usually Sci-Fi shows depict species at the height of galactic power but WH40k shows humanity having already peaked and just falling apart. Entire planets are constantly completely destroyed by orks, bugs, terminator aliens, demons and other humans. Every god in the universe is either a) super evil or b) dead. The elves of the story are the super cool, basically perfect at everything tolkien elves... except literally on the verge of extinction as they're all having their souls eaten one by one by a god they created with their sheer excess trying desperately to save their species. Every story is basically about an unfathomable tragedy and loss of life, with a tiny pocket of hope trying to push back in vain. I really really find the setting to be exceptionally cool.

I named and wrote a backstory for a huge portion of the characters of my army. I recorded every unit they destroyed in combat and every time they "died". I still wish I had time to play the game. It's just a terrible game but I miss it greatly anyway because of the awesome awesome stories that it created for me and my army.

Also, WH40k has provided this meme. It's one of my favorite ever.
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