[Off-Topic] Community Chat Thread

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toctheyounger
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Post by toctheyounger » 2 months ago

Just to hearken back to earlier discussion quickly, the Primer Committee has been busy at work implementing some changes based on the feedback received here on the application process and the templating of primers.

We've tried to streamline the process to make it less of an arduous process for the applicant, and in due course ourselves too; as discussed, there's now more overlap between strategy and card choices for content, and less reliance on descriptions of literally every card you run. This should give applicants a little more freedom to get creative with strategy talk rather than rote descriptions of 100 cards. The option is still there if you really want to, but you don't need to - for specific card discussions, highlights from the list is recommended moving forward.

We've also switched up the basic structure of the template a little so that, if you decide to use it, based on comments here at least the content you see initially should be less 'down the rabbit hole' and more 'ooh, trail of breadcrumbs' and hopefully be a more enjoyable read for a first-time viewer.

And for current primer curators, there's no need to update your lists to reflect these changes. Again, you can if you want, but you don't need to.

The template has been updated to reflect these changes, and we will be looking at how things go moving forward. Anything that doesn't quite work, we'll look into it.

If anyone out there wants to be the pilot case for the new formatting, feel free to apply :)
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Post by Rumpy5897 » 2 months ago

Just to elaborate on this a bit further - this redesign is the combination of two separate factors. One is the discussion that took place here, which led to trimming a lot of the fat and redundancy from the template. However, while everything adjacent shrunk, the bit on strategy grew. This does not mean you now need to reinvest all the words you saved elsewhere into the strategy bit, don't worry :P It's a response to how the majority of submissions have panned out, with the feedback on perfectly solid write-ups boiling down to "here's a bunch of small notes/typos, and put some more meat on your strategy section". So we've added a list of possible talking points to the template to try to unfurl tongues. Combine that with authors not entering the most important part of the primer winded after a card options slog and hopefully this will be less common now.

We're always happy to listen to ideas for improving things, be it via public discussion, PMs, however. Prior to the template redesign, we focused on optimising the feedback process with the applicant in mind.

Also, notice the snazzy Primer Owner badge that's now part of the badge repertoire. If that's not reason enough to go for a primer, I don't know what is ;)
 
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Post by Dragonlover » 2 months ago

Hmm. I couldn't get the inspiration to do my morph deck, and the main thing holding me back from doing a primer for Lathliss was that in the individual card choice section roughly 90% of the non-land cards would have been "Is a Dragon, costs less than 7". I may well now noodle around with Lathliss when my current vein of "paint all the minis!" eventually drops off.

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Post by materpillar » 2 months ago

Oooooh primer banner.

I'm feeling really salty right now. I just played some webcam versus an old friend of mine and a friend of his I've never played against. First game he played Kinnan, Bonder Prodigy. I immediately killed it on resolution 3 times. The 4th time he casts it I Lightning Bolt his Ezuri, Renegade Leader which he Pact of Negations and immediately infinites with Devoted Druid and kills the table.

Next game he plays Weatherlight tribal which was neat. It was playing a bunch of incredibly on theme broken cards that had zero synergy so they weren't broken. The general was Sisay, Weatherlight Captain and he cast Gerrard, Weatherlight Hero, Lord Windgrace, Teferi, Temporal Archmage, Urza, Lord High Artificer. That was really fun until he went Time Warp (with squee flavor text) into Karn's Temporal Sundering into kill the table.

I just hate playing against decks where if you tap out / don't have counterspells you go from a stabilized board to immediately dead.

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Post by Dunharrow » 2 months ago

materpillar wrote:
2 months ago
Oooooh primer banner.

I'm feeling really salty right now. I just played some webcam versus an old friend of mine and a friend of his I've never played against. First game he played Kinnan, Bonder Prodigy. I immediately killed it on resolution 3 times. The 4th time he casts it I Lightning Bolt his Ezuri, Renegade Leader which he Pact of Negations and immediately infinites with Devoted Druid and kills the table.

Next game he plays Weatherlight tribal which was neat. It was playing a bunch of incredibly on theme broken cards that had zero synergy so they weren't broken. The general was Sisay, Weatherlight Captain and he cast Gerrard, Weatherlight Hero, Lord Windgrace, Teferi, Temporal Archmage, Urza, Lord High Artificer. That was really fun until he went Time Warp (with squee flavor text) into Karn's Temporal Sundering into kill the table.

I just hate playing against decks where if you tap out / don't have counterspells you go from a stabilized board to immediately dead.
I think I complain on Maro's blog every 3 weeks about Kinnan, Golos, and now Prismatic Bridge. Stop putting 'play cards for free from my library' in the command zone.
The Ezuri play is really cool. Kinnan is still better than Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary in my opinion. I think it should be banned.

The weatherlight game - what can you do. I don't have an issue with extra turn spells. I guess you and your friend were both tapped out or had no responses. 3 turns in a row can win a game, that's for sure. I don't see how it would have been different from him casting tooth and nail and winning.
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Post by Toshi » 2 months ago

Rumpy5897 wrote:
2 months ago
We're always happy to listen to ideas for improving things, be it via public discussion, PMs, however.
I was wondering why the "Approved Primer" list isn't in the main forum, while the decklist database is? The other way around would make much more sense to me.
If one were to sift through decklists and see the database on top they might take the quick route instead. And Primers would get a well deserved showcase and increased traffic at best. :thinking:

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Post by toctheyounger » 2 months ago

Dunharrow wrote:
2 months ago
I think I complain on Maro's blog every 3 weeks about Kinnan, Golos, and now Prismatic Bridge. Stop putting 'play cards for free from my library' in the command zone.
The Ezuri play is really cool. Kinnan is still better than Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary in my opinion. I think it should be banned.
I, too, despise Kinnan. How in the name of everything holy does that monstrosity cost 2 damn mana. What the actual hell. I don't think I've been in a game yet where:
a) Kinnan hasn't gone off early and won from nowhere.
b) Anyone at the table thought that was anything but obnoxious.
Just out of interest, have you had any response from MaRo at all?
Toshi wrote:
2 months ago
Rumpy5897 wrote:
2 months ago
We're always happy to listen to ideas for improving things, be it via public discussion, PMs, however.
I was wondering why the "Approved Primer" list isn't in the main forum, while the decklist database is? The other way around would make much more sense to me.
If one were to sift through decklists and see the database on top they might take the quick route instead. And Primers would get a well deserved showcase and increased traffic at best. :thinking:
I agree, I think for the effort you go to with a primer they ought to be showcased rather than having to be searched out. If the extent of that is adding the primer database to the general commander forum that ought to be pretty easy. We'll have a talk about it, I think this is a pretty easy thing to do that makes a lot of sense.
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Post by pokken » 2 months ago

Dunharrow wrote:
2 months ago
I just hate playing against decks where if you tap out / don't have counterspells you go from a stabilized board to immediately dead.
This is my fundamental problem with a lot of designs recently, and why I refuse to run cards like Expropriate and Torment of Hailfire most of the time (at power levels where I don't expect there to be multiple blue decks at the table).
toctheyounger wrote:
2 months ago
I think for the effort you go to with a primer they ought to be showcased
It'd be pretty sweet if there was some kinda way to periodically showcase different primers, not sure what the best mechanism is there. Maybe one to the top of decklists for a month, and call it the primer of the month? Maybe a prominent screenshot link or somethin.

I try to keep up on lists but might be good exposure.

In a related bit of news I am not sure exactly but you might be able to partner with some of the various main social sites to get links to primers. Some ideas there:

* Prominent Facebook pages
* Wizards sites linking to primers on characters from new sets (or for cards from new sets?)
* /r/EDH showcasing primers?

The primers really are a huge collection of quality content and the periodic updates people do as sets are released could be a pretty cool thing to focus on.

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Post by toctheyounger » 2 months ago

pokken wrote:
2 months ago
It'd be pretty sweet if there was some kinda way to periodically showcase different primers, not sure what the best mechanism is there. Maybe one to the top of decklists for a month, and call it the primer of the month? Maybe a prominent screenshot link or somethin.

I try to keep up on lists but might be good exposure.

In a related bit of news I am not sure exactly but you might be able to partner with some of the various main social sites to get links to primers. Some ideas there:

* Prominent Facebook pages
* Wizards sites linking to primers on characters from new sets (or for cards from new sets?)
* /r/EDH showcasing primers?

The primers really are a huge collection of quality content and the periodic updates people do as sets are released could be a pretty cool thing to focus on.
We've discussed this before, actually. We were starting to make plans for this when salvation went down. After departing for Nexus we all had a bit of housekeeping porting content over and then RL happened for a few of the members. For myself I had a kid, so I've been way less active than previously, there's been other things going on for other CPC members too, not to mention the pandemic.

Nonetheless, we definitely like the idea, and as a primer curator myself I like the idea too. I believe one of the other chaps has done some reaching out to various outside entities, so we'll see what eventuates from that.
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Post by WizardMN » 2 months ago

@toctheyounger @pokken

I like this idea a lot too, though I might ask that it be delayed a little or an announcement made as to when it would start. I think both of my primers are out of date due to not playing them often. That is, there are 6-10 months of changes that are not reflected in the content of the Primer so I would hate to have one of mine showcased only to have the content and decklist not match the actual decklist discussed in the comments.

And, yes, I realize they should be kept up to date more frequently, but Covid messing with things means it hasn't been a high priority.

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Post by toctheyounger » 2 months ago

WizardMN wrote:
2 months ago
@toctheyounger @pokken

I like this idea a lot too, though I might ask that it be delayed a little or an announcement made as to when it would start. I think both of my primers are out of date due to not playing them often. That is, there are 6-10 months of changes that are not reflected in the content of the Primer so I would hate to have one of mine showcased only to have the content and decklist not match the actual decklist discussed in the comments.

And, yes, I realize they should be kept up to date more frequently, but Covid messing with things means it hasn't been a high priority.
I think we're probably a little way away from this actually happening in any concrete way. From what the CPC has discussed, feelers have been put out there, but that's about as far down the path as we've travelled thus far. If it's something we can do, we'll of course keep you guys in the loop with dates and logistics.

edit: can relate with up-to-dateness. While I'm very lucky to live in New Zealand through this pandemic, babies are hard work and don't let anyone tell you otherwise. Wouldn't trade it for the world, and we are very lucky to have a pretty great kid, but there's just no spare time.
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Post by Dunharrow » 2 months ago

toctheyounger wrote:
2 months ago
I, too, despise Kinnan. How in the name of everything holy does that monstrosity cost 2 damn mana. What the actual hell. I don't think I've been in a game yet where:
a) Kinnan hasn't gone off early and won from nowhere.
b) Anyone at the table thought that was anything but obnoxious.
Just out of interest, have you had any response from MaRo at all?
I think so. I can't search his blog for some reason, but pretty sure he turned it into a question for people to comment on - like 'how many of you want commanders that are more focused'.
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Post by toctheyounger » 2 months ago

Dunharrow wrote:
2 months ago
toctheyounger wrote:
2 months ago
I, too, despise Kinnan. How in the name of everything holy does that monstrosity cost 2 damn mana. What the actual hell. I don't think I've been in a game yet where:
a) Kinnan hasn't gone off early and won from nowhere.
b) Anyone at the table thought that was anything but obnoxious.
Just out of interest, have you had any response from MaRo at all?
I think so. I can't search his blog for some reason, but pretty sure he turned it into a question for people to comment on - like 'how many of you want commanders that are more focused'.
Huh. That seems to be picking apart your point a little bit, but whatevs. Personally I can't see how that card passed R&D without them seeing exactly how much nonsense it would cause. Sure, some of these recent designs are a little innocuous, Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath being the big one there. It's value, but it didn't really seem like anyone clued on early to how strong it would be, certainly not to the point where it's the most played creature in 4 different formats.

This one seems more of an Oko, Thief of Crowns, where it's pretty clear that the card is straight up nonsense and everyone could see it coming a mile off.

I guess at least they've learned that ug is far too little to pay for busted power in the command zone. Still, I don't want to play against Koma, Cosmos Serpent. It just looks gross. And probably has no issues hitting 3uugg to cast anyway.

God I hate recent Simic mythics.
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Post by Dunharrow » 2 months ago

toctheyounger wrote:
2 months ago
Dunharrow wrote:
2 months ago
toctheyounger wrote:
2 months ago
I, too, despise Kinnan. How in the name of everything holy does that monstrosity cost 2 damn mana. What the actual hell. I don't think I've been in a game yet where:
a) Kinnan hasn't gone off early and won from nowhere.
b) Anyone at the table thought that was anything but obnoxious.
Just out of interest, have you had any response from MaRo at all?
I think so. I can't search his blog for some reason, but pretty sure he turned it into a question for people to comment on - like 'how many of you want commanders that are more focused'.
Huh. That seems to be picking apart your point a little bit, but whatevs. Personally I can't see how that card passed R&D without them seeing exactly how much nonsense it would cause. Sure, some of these recent designs are a little innocuous, Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath being the big one there. It's value, but it didn't really seem like anyone clued on early to how strong it would be, certainly not to the point where it's the most played creature in 4 different formats.

This one seems more of an Oko, Thief of Crowns, where it's pretty clear that the card is straight up nonsense and everyone could see it coming a mile off.

I guess at least they've learned that ug is far too little to pay for busted power in the command zone. Still, I don't want to play against Koma, Cosmos Serpent. It just looks gross. And probably has no issues hitting 3uugg to cast anyway.

God I hate recent Simic mythics.
Black and white have answers to Koma (exile mainly). I would hate to try to fight through it with Gruul.
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Post by cryogen » 2 months ago

Y'all have no idea how much I miss the golden years of EDH when we got a couple of new legendary creatures every set and you had to figure out how to build around them rather than the deck half building itself.
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Post by pokken » 2 months ago

cryogen wrote:
2 months ago
Y'all have no idea how much I miss the golden years of EDH when we got a couple of new legendary creatures every set and you had to figure out how to build around them rather than the deck half building itself.
Oh I think we do :)

Here's my partial list of decks that almost no one would even consider building these days:

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Post by lyonhaert » 2 months ago

toctheyounger wrote:
2 months ago
Personally I can't see how that card passed R&D without them seeing exactly how much nonsense it would cause. Sure, some of these recent designs are a little innocuous, Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath being the big one there. It's value, but it didn't really seem like anyone clued on early to how strong it would be, certainly not to the point where it's the most played creature in 4 different formats.

This one seems more of an Oko, Thief of Crowns, where it's pretty clear that the card is straight up nonsense and everyone could see it coming a mile off.
WOTC didn't see Oko coming. One of the design folks (I think) admitted that in testing they never used his Elk ability offensively. All they did was make food and then turn the food into an Elk. So I don't have a lot of faith that they understood what they'd made in Kinnan, either.
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Post by toctheyounger » 2 months ago

lyonhaert wrote:
2 months ago
toctheyounger wrote:
2 months ago
Personally I can't see how that card passed R&D without them seeing exactly how much nonsense it would cause. Sure, some of these recent designs are a little innocuous, Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath being the big one there. It's value, but it didn't really seem like anyone clued on early to how strong it would be, certainly not to the point where it's the most played creature in 4 different formats.

This one seems more of an Oko, Thief of Crowns, where it's pretty clear that the card is straight up nonsense and everyone could see it coming a mile off.
WOTC didn't see Oko coming. One of the design folks (I think) admitted that in testing they never used his Elk ability offensively. All they did was make food and then turn the food into an Elk. So I don't have a lot of faith that they understood what they'd made in Kinnan, either.
Yeah, I remember seeing some video footage of Melissa DeTora and one of the other R&D guys speaking about Oko and saying pretty much that. Nonetheless, there were a lot of players around who saw issues with Oko as soon as it was spoiled. No disrespect to Melissa either, everything I've seen of her gaming tells me she is excellent at this game. Sometimes you just don't see every angle, I guess.
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Post by Hermes_ » 2 months ago

cryogen wrote:
2 months ago
Y'all have no idea how much I miss the golden years of EDH when we got a couple of new legendary creatures every set and you had to figure out how to build around them rather than the deck half building itself.
kids these days..am i right?
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Post by Yatsufusa » 2 months ago

Hermes_ wrote:
2 months ago
cryogen wrote:
2 months ago
Y'all have no idea how much I miss the golden years of EDH when we got a couple of new legendary creatures every set and you had to figure out how to build around them rather than the deck half building itself.
kids these days..am i right?
Technically we still have them now, Kaldheim makes it so obvious, just look at the uncommon Legendaries. A decade plus ago those would have been the rares of the set.

The game has been "power-crept" so hard to appeal to the new generation of gamers who are not used to building exploring and creating but used to paying for next new, shiny, powerful flavor-of-the-month. Kids who grew up not with Lego, but with Genshin Impact.
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Post by Ulka » 2 months ago

cryogen wrote:
2 months ago
Y'all have no idea how much I miss the golden years of EDH when we got a couple of new legendary creatures every set and you had to figure out how to build around them rather than the deck half building itself.
I've been very vocal about this over the past 3+ years. Its kinda ridiculous how much I hate that rares and mythics are shifting towards EDH play and legends all seems to be printed for EDH in mind. I miss the days of Omnath and Thrun being the new green tech and everyone figuring out how to play them.
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Post by Rumpy5897 » 2 months ago

I think part of the problem is being misdiagnosed. A number of these old romanticised legends being listed build themselves as much as current ones. Doran? Butts. Wort? Spells plus wide. However, back then it wasn't quite as easy to find info on how to carry that out. There was nominally Gatherer or whatever, but the whole EDH deck building culture wasn't in the place it is today. It was more "99 cards I had in my shame box" and less "99 cards I put together based on trivially findable online resources and proportioned based on accepted deck building guidelines for various forms of utility". So it's not like the legends are that much purer or anything, but rather we're pining for a time when things were fresh and the EDH realm unexplored. I'm stuck waiting for new releases to build anything for years now, because the legend pool is finite and I ran out of exciting backlog within a year of starting my adventure :P

That said, claiming that R&D are not designing for EDH is just flat-out wrong. I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing on the whole, especially compared to their initial period of support that gave us a lot of stuff on the ban list. Power creep is very hard to avoid - every time a card comes out that's not best in slot I sigh a sigh of relief, while I should actually be more aware of the fact it still probably slots into decks and makes them better. Let's take Goldspan Dragon - my Feather windmilled it the second it became official. It's a pretty niche card, and isn't even as strong in that deck as Paradox Engine was back in the day, but it nevertheless inched my deck forward on the power scale. And every set brings a bunch of Goldspans to various decks. I like the fact that we're seeing Goldspans rather than Rifts though.

And yeah, occasional blatant stupidity like Golos is not cool. I'm still unhappy that they made Bridge in KHM, as it seems like their response to Golos/Kenrith popularity. However, as pointed out on the forums, Bridge is not the same tier as Golos/Kenrith, and even arguably Jodah. So it's still a powered down take on the idea. Not best in slot - Rumpy sighs a sigh of relief :P
 
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Post by tstorm823 » 2 months ago

Another aspect of the changing landscape is the available redundancy of effects. Think about Exploration: I don't think any single Exploration type effect printed since Exploration even approaches the power level of the original, but for those of us who started EDH in the era before "Commander", the options were basically Exploration and Azusa, Lost but Seeking and maybe Oracle of Mul Daya just came out. Lately, they've been printing a new extra land-drop creature like annually. Wayward Swordtooth and Dryad of the Ilysian Grove are recent cards, and then Golgari, Simic, and Gruul all got generals with Exploration's text on them.

The 100-card singleton deck just isn't the power level limiter it used to be cause we keep getting new cards with similar effects to the old staples that happen to have different names. It's not necessarily power creep of the cards themselves: the best ramp spells, the best creature removal, the best counterspells, the best lands, etc. are all still old-bordered cards. (The only effects really power creeping are bombs and card draw.) But the available redundancy in the card pool makes decks way, way more powerful and consistent.
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Post by materpillar » 2 months ago

I was thinking of time locking some of my EDH decks, so only playing cards up until an arbitrary point of time (I was thinking the first Theros because the proliferation of indestructible gods in the command zone was my first spike of annoyance). Would anyone here have any interest in that and playing some spelltable. Thinking @bobthefunny?

However, I've looked at some of 3drinks, only whiteborder decks and I don't think that timelocking decks actually solves any problem. His decks have a ton of power squashed into them. I think what Rumpy said is more of the problem.
Rumpy5897 wrote:
2 months ago
I think part of the problem is being misdiagnosed. A number of these old romanticised legends being listed build themselves as much as current ones. Doran? Butts. Wort? Spells plus wide. However, back then it wasn't quite as easy to find info on how to carry that out. There was nominally Gatherer or whatever, but the whole EDH deck building culture wasn't in the place it is today. It was more "99 cards I had in my shame box" and less "99 cards I put together based on trivially findable online resources and proportioned based on accepted deck building guidelines for various forms of utility".
I really miss the "99 cards I had in my shame box EDH", and I don't know where I could find that again. One of my favorite memories ever was going to my friends house, forgetting my EDH decks and then building a Lu Xun, Scholar General out of his bulk box of rares/uncommons and beating him with it. I miss getting killed by a hardcast Sheoldred, Whispering One attacking me for 6 turns straight not some random 3 card combo, one card of which is the commander that the deck is clearly built to win with everytime. I'm tired of tapping out and then immediately dying because I didn't hold up a removal spell instead of casting my large dinosaur.

I came to EDH because it didn't feel like a constructed format at all. It really feels like a constructed format now.

[edit]: There have been 85 expansions for mtg? I really want to build an EDH deck with 1 card from each expansion now. >.>

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Post by pokken » 2 months ago

materpillar wrote:
2 months ago
I'm tired of tapping out and then immediately dying because I didn't hold up a removal spell instead of casting my large dinosaur.
Part of the issue there and the reason I gravitated toward combo, is that we have stuff like Winota, Joiner of Forces and Goreclaw, Terror of Qal Sisma churning out so much power so fast that the only way to be able to beat 3 players doing that is to combo.

I used to play the stall game and then kill people with combat with Ephara, God of the Polis voltronning one guy and Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite pumped critters killing another. Nowadays I started to take 20 from aggro in the first 4 turns almost every game because of how dang pushed everything is getting. So I run more interaction and a combo finish because it's really almost all you can do if you want to try to play controllish decks without just jamming 20 sweepers.

And then stuff like Purphoros, God of the Forge puts you on a super fast clock even if you kill everything :P

The texture of the game has changed a lot.

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