[Off-Topic] Community Chat Thread

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materpillar
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Post by materpillar » 4 months ago

I don't have a whole to contribute to the kid discussion other than I'm glad everyone recommends having them. That makes me somewhat pleased to hear every time I hear people say it.

In other news, I played a couple of games with my Tivadar of Thorn deck. Both games there was another Mono-W deck at the table. It's scary how homogenous all three of these decks were. They also ended up playing out in a really dull pillowfort fashion.

Last week I was playing and someone went ExpropriateOmniscienceJin-Gitaxias, Core Augur. I almost vomitted.

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Post by pokken » 4 months ago

materpillar wrote:
4 months ago
In other news, I played a couple of games with my Tivadar of Thorn deck. Both games there was another Mono- deck at the table. It's scary how homogenous all three of these decks were. They also ended up playing out in a really dull pillowfort fashion.
In my experience, most mono decks have (or choose?) to rely really heavy on the best cards in their color to make a deck. Even ones with really wonky themes wind up playing a lot of the same support artifacts and support removal/sweeper/card draw spells.

There're some exceptions of course but you see a lot of overlap. Especially in the worse colors (Red, white). Green and blue decks tend to be a bit more varied although you still see things like Beast Within and Cyclonic Rift a lot.

It's a lot easier to try to stay on theme with more colors without making something unplayable.

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Post by JWK » 4 months ago

I have three mono-red decks, Zada, Torbran and Etali. There are a few cards common between them, but relatively few, because their relative game plans are so dramatically different. In the case of Zada, I don't even run the full suite of colorless ramp and draw typical for mono-red because the mana curve is so low. Torbran and Etali have more in common, i.e., mana rocks, but even there things differ a bit, because Etali has a higher mana curve and thus needs some pricier accelleration such as Caged Sun .

One card they do have in common is Blood Moon . I can't think of any reason to not run it in a mono-red deck.
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Post by Toshi » 4 months ago

pokken wrote:
4 months ago
In my experience, most mono decks have (or choose?) to rely really heavy on the best cards in their color to make a deck.
As someone with 6 (including ) mono decks i'd only partly agree. What's likely to have the most overlaps and therefor shape how one perceives colors, is removals and sweepers.
Sure, you could go without Generous Gift, PtE and StP, without Pongify, Rapid Hybridization and Reality Shift, without Chaos Warp and without Beast Within and Return to Nature - but due to common power levels and lack of alternatives, you likely should not.
Beyond that there's certainly plenty of differences. Elfball with it's dorks will look different than good stuff lists with expected ramp spells instead of them.
Goblins will look different than Dragons, Etali, Primal Storm or Zada, Hedron Grinder.
Teshar, Ancestor's Apostle and Sram, Senior Edificer may have overlaps, but only few with keyword soup, Angels, Stax or what have you.
comes in more archetype "sets" with Baral, Chief of Compliance, Talrand, Sky Summoner and God-Eternal Kefnet looking alike, as well as Urza, Lord High Artificer, Emry, Lurker of the Loch and Sai, Master Thopterist. But being such an insanely strong color, i've seen so many sub par cards played that still carry their weight when compared to blue's own staples or other colors. Think of the 10-15th best Counterspell and card draw variants that are still very playable.
might be the color of Reanimator, yet there are Rats, Zombies, Toshiro Umezawa, Shirei, Shizo's Caretaker and so much more variety even just looking at the most played commanders.
If only had more options than Karn, Silver Golem, Traxos, Scourge of Kroog, Eldrazi and its only very limited card pool, you'd likely see more differences, too.

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Post by Hermes_ » 4 months ago

Hey folks can you please send and or pray for good vibes my friend Jacob and his family. He currently is in the hospital with covid-19 and the doctors don't think he will make it.
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Post by toctheyounger » 4 months ago

pokken wrote:
4 months ago
In my experience, most mono decks have (or choose?) to rely really heavy on the best cards in their color to make a deck. Even ones with really wonky themes wind up playing a lot of the same support artifacts and support removal/sweeper/card draw spells.
I dunno, I disagree that it's hugely ubiquitous. My Nissa deck probably proves your point to some degree, but I wouldn't necessarily say the same about Bruna or Purphoros. Granted, they're both a little odd for different reasons, Purph for not casting a ton of actual spells, and Bruna for being at least a semi-control deck. But I think a lot of the phenomenon you're seeing here is that at least overtly there appear to be few options for ramp and removal in the weaker colours. That's not always true, you just have to think outside the box in those colours.

Personally I'd say the same applies for tri-coloured decks through to pentacoloured. Land bases start to look very homogenous, and because colours are spread as far as they are you tend to see a lot of the best removal, win cons and answer cards in the format cropping up in lots of builds.

End of the day I think it's part and parcel of wanting to win games and wanting your deck to run steady for the least amount of brewing effort applied. Its not necessarily easy to think outside of the norms for every deck you build, and to be honest not everyone wants to. There's nothing necessarily wrong with an all star build, it's just not unique or innovative. And that's ok.
Hermes_ wrote:
4 months ago
Hey folks can you please send and or pray for good vibes my friend Jacob and his family. He currently is in the hospital with covid-19 and the doctors don't think he will make it.
Sorry to hear that man. I'm not religious so I won't send prayers, but I will wish him well and hope for a successful recovery, for the sake of himself, his friends and his family.
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Post by bobthefunny » 4 months ago

Mono White does get singled out a bit more on the staples. White actually has some of the most efficient cards in Magic in several prominent categories, but doesn't necessarily have a lot of depth in any of them. Sun Titan is great, but there's no real Sun Titan #2. This means that not only do a lot of the most efficient cards show up - but they also show up in a lot of decks outside of mono white. Oddly, removal, or at least mass removal and artifact/ench removal is quite plentiful and can vary from deck to deck, depending on the type of removal you need. For single target, it's hard to beat StP and PtE though.

Then you have the recursion staples: Sun Titan, Emeria Shepherd, and Emeria, the Sky Ruin are all such amazing utility, it's hard to justify their exclusion, even in multi color decks. Defensive options like Teferi's Protection are really only limited due to their price tag, otherwise would reach a high use scenario. Brought Back is similarly quite powerful.

Likewise, many land ramp options will be similar between decks. How many different Kor Cartographer effects are there in mono white? Many artifacts will also see repeated use in white decks, due to being the only other source of ramp, as well as covering White's card draw deficiencies, and the synergy with white's artifact recursion.

White is also able to leverage equipment to solve its deficiencies, and has the strongest equipment tutoring and support package in the game, meaning a 5-7 card package can easily be slotted into most white decks. For example, a package of Stoneforge Mystic, Relic Seeker, Steelshaper's Gift gives a solid early tutor, which then lets you leverage Sword of the Animist, Skullclamp, and Sword of Light and Shadow (or any other X and Y) for your ramp, draw, and recursion needs.

That means most mono white, and even Wx decks may run several of the following:
Spoiler
Show
Mono White staples

Common Lands (other than Emeria)


Possibly a few from this list of artifact/enchantment removal


Possibly also some of these


1 Legion's Landing (acceptable ramp, and tokens)
1 Enlightened Tutor (One of the most efficient Tutors)
1 Mentor of the Meek (White's card draw)
1 Cathars' Crusade (staple wincon)
1 Luminous Broodmoth (alt recursion piece)
Approximate Total Cost:

That's.... a lot of potential staples.

Compare that to green's options in say... ramp, where you have multiple different options at 2 mana, 3 mana, and 4 mana - whether you want spells, or creatures, or even enchantments. Or Black's removals, where you can have sac/edict effects on Spells or , or destroy effects on [card=murder]spells and creatures, and -x effects on spells and creatures... And you can build those decks to a variety of themes, with very different, but equal packages. Likewise, green can draw cards based on creatures entering the battlefield, dying, or just living. Black can draw cards by paying life, having creatures die, sacrificing creatures... etc. Other colors have a depth and breadth of effects, which just isn't seen as deeply in white.

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Post by JWK » 4 months ago

Yeah, I agree with what Bob wrote above. I have two mono-white decks (Odric keyword tribal, Mageta all wrath, all the time), and even though they try to win via very different plans, they have an awful lot of card overlap just to be functional. This carries over into many other decks with W, and particularly Boros decks. White's contribution to most Boros lists is a pile of the staples listed above, perhaps emphasizing one of the color's relative strengths (equipment, removal, recursion, fast creatures with things like first/double strike) over another. Even when it gets to three colors, white's contributions tend to be a lot of staple cards. Lots of decks running white are going to run a few staples like Stoneforge Mystic, Sun Titan, Broodmoth or some wraths and artifact/enchantment removal, with the offerings of other colors being much more diverse.

Edited to add: I try hard to not have my decks just be full of staples or to include a lot of the same cards so they don't end up playing a lot alike, but the difference in power and utility between white's strongest 30 or so cards and the next tier of cards on the list is pretty remarkable. With most other colors or color combos, you can go pretty deep and still find a lot of great stuff to play. Like, green has more excellent creatures than you can possibly ever fit in one deck, and includes enough variety that whatever you need green to provide to that deck, it can probably do it. With white, if you aren't playing a lot of the usual stuff - Sun Titan, Tithe, Swords, etc - you are probably hosing your deck more often than not.
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Post by materpillar » 4 months ago

I just got my Tivadar of Thorn decklist powerlevel checked. They responded by telling me "However your deck would need a major overhaul in order to function at all. I actually had a mod ask me if this deck of yours was meant for an LGS or not".

I've already won a game with it. Comments like that are what I live for. :hmm:

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Post by Hermes_ » 4 months ago

Guess who's playing Cyberpunk 2077 Image
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Post by materpillar » 4 months ago

Just got a game in with Tivadar of Thorn vs Tiana, Ship's Caretaker, Golos, Tireless Pilgrim, and Wort, the Raidmother

I cast Shields of Velis Vel, Tivadar of Thorn and then Restoration Angel in response to Titan's Presence on Tivadar of Thorn (for reasons?) to kill Golos, Tireless Pilgrim and another small Eldrazi. Opponent untaps and Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger Tivadar of Thorn and my Sol Ring (for reasons??)

The game goes really long and Wort, the Raidmother scoops out early. Golos, Tireless Pilgrim player hit 8+ lands with Oblivion Sower. Then, the Golos, Tireless Pilgrim played Emrakul, the Promised End, bounced it with Cloudstone Curio and played it again targetting both of us. I got my board wrathed and multiple of my lands destroyed. I killed Golos's only flier and the Tiana, Ship's Caretaker untaps and swings at me for lethal instead of the golos player (for reasons????????). He then is immediately pubstomped by another pile of Eldrazi. I... don't understand. I just don't understand at all. I don't understand how I was remotely as threatening as the golos + eldrazi tribal player with 20 lands on the battlefield. Like how? He was just terrified of my Crib Swap, Mistveil Plains, Forerunner of the Legion, Emeria, the Sky Ruin, Fanatical Devotion combo that kept his sorry self alive for an hour and a half.

Anyway, I feel like I got an achievement unlocked because I killed the Trifecta of Eldrazi. I Crib Swaped Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger, Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre and Kozilek, Butcher of Truth. Tivadar single-handedly slew the well disguised goblin Emrakul, the Promised End.

@Hermes_ How're you liking it?

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 4 months ago

materpillar wrote:
4 months ago
I just got my Tivadar of Thorn decklist powerlevel checked. They responded by telling me "However your deck would need a major overhaul in order to function at all. I actually had a mod ask me if this deck of yours was meant for an LGS or not".

I've already won a game with it. Comments like that are what I live for. :hmm:
The challenge with Tivador is how few cards make his destroy a goblin work. Pro red is also not irrelevant but red is also likely one of the weaker protections to have. Its akin to taking a weak mono color and pairing it with a weak and narrow interaction commander. It can still totally work and win but a lot of the wins are probably going to involve throwing several cards on top of your commander or winning via cards from the 99 rather than from the commander. You can still create a swarm of tokens and buff them or crash in with big angels in mono white ignoring the commander but having a lower impact commander with mono white doesn't do you any favors.

There are definitely worse commander choices to be had, but I think Tivador is still probably among picking the bottom of the commanders who still kind of do something. Its a very large uphill battle from there. I do think its cool that you are taking an underdog mono white commander and making it work. I was more saying "wow that sounds hard" than anything lol.
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Post by ISBPathfinder » 4 months ago

Hu, my Walking Dead secret layer just showed up. I was expecting it to take like..... another 1-2 months. Guess I need to deckbuild something with this....
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Post by Hermes_ » 4 months ago

ISBPathfinder wrote:
4 months ago
Hu, my Walking Dead secret layer just showed up. I was expecting it to take like..... another 1-2 months. Guess I need to deckbuild something with this....
like a new wallet or better taste in products?

here's some funny looking magic cards
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Post by ISBPathfinder » 4 months ago

Hermes_ wrote:
4 months ago
ISBPathfinder wrote:
4 months ago
Hu, my Walking Dead secret layer just showed up. I was expecting it to take like..... another 1-2 months. Guess I need to deckbuild something with this....
like a new wallet or better taste in products?

here's some funny looking magic cards
I didn't say I endourse what they did. But I am a big fan of tribal cards and I was fine until they showed me Rick. I don't know that I have a place for him right now but humans is a big tribe and his effect is something I want access to. I wish they didn't do what they did but if I cared enough to not buy the product, it would probably be the day I also sell my entire collection. I already have a $50K collection. What's another $50.00.
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Post by RxPhantom » 4 months ago

I support my LGS as hard as possible, but I really want the Metal and Seb Mckinnon ones. I'd like the mana rocks one too, but I'd only use two of the five cards. I just wish WotC would do more to support stores, though the cynic in me thinks they may not care.

Anyway, I stopped playing at my LGS since cases are surging like crazy, and while Maryland is doing better than many other states, it's still bad. I do plan on stopping in and buying some product though.
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Post by TheAmericanSpirit » 4 months ago

Secret lairs are something I simply can't support. There's been plenty that I have wanted for one reason or another, but just like I suspect my wtaching the Yankees play makes them lose, a parallel superstition makes me suspect that the first secret lair I buy will kill my love of this game stone dead. That's reason enough to abstain forever, I reckon.

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Post by toctheyounger » 4 months ago

They hold no allure for me in almost any way. Well, the 'ultimate edition' purely being fetches all represent cards I'd make great use of, but the extortionate cost and proprietary sales solely through WotC feel too much like a spit in the face for me to even entertain the thought of trying to scrape together the sort of money they were asking. It was just a blunt, overt acknowledgement of the secondary market and WotC wading in hip deep to reap full benefit from an artificially scarce supply/demand scenario. Just gross, and that's not a practice I want to encourage them to engage in.

Frankly I think there's no reason they shouldn't just go the other way and makes fetches, format staples and potentially reserved list cards readily available, but they're clearly aware they have us over a barrel and they're content with that from a financial perspective. I don't think that would change, in fact I think they'd stand to make a ton more profit for letting this stuff trickle through in a meaningfully reprinted way, and it would just feel a little better not having them dangled just out of the reach of John Q Casualplayer. But all this is neither here nor there I guess.

Aside from the above, my LGS is pretty amazing and if there's a way I can support them without losing most of that money to WotC directly I'm 100% down with that.

All that being said, I have no issue with others buying them if that's how they want to engage with the game. For someone like ISB who has a full collection of ample format staples and enough of them to build whatever he likes, I see no reason it's not something to buy into. They're collector cards, and once your collection is that big, why wouldn't you?

To quote WotC, not every release is for every player. And that's fine with me, it just frustrates me that they take the stance they do around chase cards' availability is all. Otherwise, SL ain't for me and I'm fine with that.
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Post by Guardman » 4 months ago

TheAmericanSpirit wrote:
4 months ago
Secret lairs are something I simply can't support. There's been plenty that I have wanted for one reason or another, but just like I suspect my wtaching the Yankees play makes them lose, a parallel superstition makes me suspect that the first secret lair I buy will kill my love of this game stone dead. That's reason enough to abstain forever, I reckon.
I am kind of like you (except not as extreme and please do watch the Yankees - they deserve to lose) on the secret lairs front. They for the most part feel like a cash grab. Even the one I kind of liked, the Extra Life one, because it was a good value and went to charity, I just couldn't justify it.

Also, partly related, but thanks to the jumpstart basic lands and the secret lairs with basic lands, they either don't know how basic lands are used, or don't care. And I sort of feel it is like they don't care, and is instead a blatent cash grab. You can't just give one basic land, especially for one like the Phyrexian swamp, and call it a day. Most people I know like having all of the same basic land art in their deck. It's one thing to pay for art instead of the card function, but it feels these jumpstart lands and secret lair lands are distributed and priced in such a way to extract as much money from whales as possible.

Personally, I love the Bob Ross lands. I am a big fan of Bob Ross paintings. But I don't want one of each. I want to build a deck using them. But they are priced and distributed in such a way that it makes it infeasible unless you are loaded or willing to take out a second mortgage to buy like fifteen of the Bob Ross secret lairs.

Boy, I am in a ranting mood today. I don't know why... :fuming:

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Post by Hermes_ » 4 months ago

ISBPathfinder wrote:
4 months ago
Hermes_ wrote:
4 months ago
ISBPathfinder wrote:
4 months ago
Hu, my Walking Dead secret layer just showed up. I was expecting it to take like..... another 1-2 months. Guess I need to deckbuild something with this....
like a new wallet or better taste in products?
I didn't say I endourse what they did. But I am a big fan of tribal cards and I was fine until they showed me Rick. I don't know that I have a place for him right now but humans is a big tribe and his effect is something I want access to. I wish they didn't do what they did but if I cared enough to not buy the product, it would probably be the day I also sell my entire collection. I already have a $50K collection. What's another $50.00.
I was only teasing, if i didn't have other things on my plate I'd have bought one and one of the Bob Ross lairs.
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Post by ISBPathfinder » 4 months ago

TheAmericanSpirit wrote:
4 months ago
Secret lairs are something I simply can't support. There's been plenty that I have wanted for one reason or another, but just like I suspect my wtaching the Yankees play makes them lose, a parallel superstition makes me suspect that the first secret lair I buy will kill my love of this game stone dead. That's reason enough to abstain forever, I reckon.
New art and foil is something I don't value all that highly anymore. My decks change way too much to the point that I have mostly given up on foiling / pimping out decks. I hadn't bought any secret layers or singles from any of them before this and I likely won't much moving forward either if I can help it. Its just tough when I see mechanically unique cards that I know will be a real bugger to get later. If not for Rick being a tribal mono white card I likely wouldn't have even given in on this product. It hit too many of my want list for me to ignore it.
Hermes_ wrote:
4 months ago
I was only teasing, if i didn't have other things on my plate I'd have bought one and one of the Bob Ross lairs.
Its a real shame they didn't do full art for the bob ross lands. Whoever made the decision to not do that needs a talking to.
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Post by TheAmericanSpirit » 4 months ago

Guardman wrote:
4 months ago
TheAmericanSpirit wrote:
4 months ago
Secret lairs are something I simply can't support. There's been plenty that I have wanted for one reason or another, but just like I suspect my wtaching the Yankees play makes them lose, a parallel superstition makes me suspect that the first secret lair I buy will kill my love of this game stone dead. That's reason enough to abstain forever, I reckon.
I am kind of like you (except not as extreme and please do watch the Yankees - they deserve to lose) on the secret lairs front. They for the most part feel like a cash grab. Even the one I kind of liked, the Extra Life one, because it was a good value and went to charity, I just couldn't justify it.

Also, partly related, but thanks to the jumpstart basic lands and the secret lairs with basic lands, they either don't know how basic lands are used, or don't care. And I sort of feel it is like they don't care, and is instead a blatent cash grab. You can't just give one basic land, especially for one like the Phyrexian swamp, and call it a day. Most people I know like having all of the same basic land art in their deck. It's one thing to pay for art instead of the card function, but it feels these jumpstart lands and secret lair lands are distributed and priced in such a way to extract as much money from whales as possible.

Personally, I love the Bob Ross lands. I am a big fan of Bob Ross paintings. But I don't want one of each. I want to build a deck using them. But they are priced and distributed in such a way that it makes it infeasible unless you are loaded or willing to take out a second mortgage to buy like fifteen of the Bob Ross secret lairs.

Boy, I am in a ranting mood today. I don't know why... :fuming:
Oooh, a Sox fan, are you? Well, if I could curse that team again, I'd have done it yesterday. Yankees forever, or at least until North Carolina gets its own major league team (we could call it the Carolina Flytraps, which would be sweet).

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Post by Guardman » 4 months ago

TheAmericanSpirit wrote:
4 months ago

Oooh, a Sox fan, are you? Well, if I could curse that team again, I'd have done it yesterday. Yankees forever, or at least until North Carolina gets its own major league team (we could call it the Carolina Flytraps, which would be sweet).
No. I'm not really a baseball fan. I just know too many insufferable Yankees fans.

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Post by TheAmericanSpirit » 4 months ago

@Guardman

Well, I'll concede on that. Insofar as my understanding, it comes with the territory. Better to be insufferable than be a sock, I say.

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