[Off-Topic] Community Chat Thread

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DirkGently
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Post by DirkGently » 1 year ago

I'd definitely want as much hexproof/shroud equipment as possible to avoid the mid-combat removal - luckily there's quite a bit available in colorless. Of course you could get blown out by a board wipe if you overextend, but that's true of any go-wide deck. I think karumonix is probably more predisposed towards going wide than graaz is, because you need to connect 10 times to kill someone with karumonix whereas you only need to connect 8 times with graaz (plus he provides evasion, plus he doesn't have type restrictions, plus he piggybacks on other damage, etc). The must-attack clause is a nonissue imo, if you play him it's probably because you're going to swing for lethal against at least one opponent.

I think if he had almost any color he'd be fairly strong - he's a bad craterhoof, but he's still a craterhoof in the CZ so that has to be respected. It's mostly an issue of fighting against the CI. At the power level my group plays at, I think he could still be pretty strong, but hard to say for sure.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

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materpillar
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Post by materpillar » 1 year ago

Are we talking worst for your playgroup or worst in a vacuum? I think Graaz, Unstoppable Juggernaut would prefer drastically better in your playgroup than he should compared to say Skrelv, Defector Mite. His threat profile is extremely obvious and telegraphed, a fact your group won't take advantage of but most probably would. If you have enough power to lethal the table, someone should have the brains to be able to see it and you should eat a Wrath of God. If you're playing him before that point you're leaving yourself open to whoever you didn't kill. Graaz, Unstoppable Juggernaut is way more swingy and easier to answer, and good players would play around him pretty easily. Against your pod, you can probably just ramp him out early and yolo smash some face.

I've played against a fair amount of Phabine, Boss's Confidant and Graaz, Unstoppable Juggernaut is just so much worse not even taking color identity into account.

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DirkGently
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Post by DirkGently » 1 year ago

materpillar wrote:
1 year ago
Are we talking worst for your playgroup or worst in a vacuum? I think Graaz, Unstoppable Juggernaut would prefer drastically better in your playgroup than he should compared to say Skrelv, Defector Mite. His threat profile is extremely obvious and telegraphed, a fact your group won't take advantage of but most probably would. If you have enough power to lethal the table, someone should have the brains to be able to see it and you should eat a Wrath of God. If you're playing him before that point you're leaving yourself open to whoever you didn't kill. Graaz, Unstoppable Juggernaut is way more swingy and easier to answer, and good players would play around him pretty easily. Against your pod, you can probably just ramp him out early and yolo smash some face.

I've played against a fair amount of Phabine, Boss's Confidant and Graaz, Unstoppable Juggernaut is just so much worse not even taking color identity into account.
Hmm, I think that's kind of a tricky comparison - Phabine definitely makes things a lot easier since she's the whole package at a cheaper cost, but in terms of immediate impact graaz giving both a larger power boost, trample, and having reliability (in terms of buff magnitude) makes him stronger in plenty of circumstances. If I've already got a wide board and I could topdeck either phabine or graaz I think I'd be more likely to want graaz. Phabine relies on generating value over multiple turns. And it's partly personal preference, but if I'm putting down a threat I really don't like giving my opponent draw to find their board wipes or whatever. Nor do I like relying on my threat sticking in order to draw myself, since it can create a feast-or-famine situation. So I don't think I could minimize draw in the deck on the assumption that my commander will cover that base.

I do agree with your assessment that graaz probably plays better in a weak playgroup vs a stronger one, for the reasons you stated.

Tbf, for similar reasons, Karumonix, the Rat King is probably better than skrelv too - black especially can punch well above its weight class thanks to tutors, so the deck could focus on something like Plague of Vermin + Akroma's Memorial for an OTK.

Venser is awful, but UB is probably enough better than mono-white that he'd still beat out skrelv.

So it's probably down to skrelv vs melira. Melira is in that camp where it'd be hard to really fully focus on her ability since you can't repeat it outside of recasting her, but that maybe just means she has free reign to be a generic GW deck with a little wrath protection and maybe some etbs + sac outlet lands. Whereas skrelv dictates a poison strat that wants a lot higher commitment.

Btw, got another official vote, this one for Geth, Thane of Contracts. I'm not sure if it was chosen for being bad, or just because he's curious to see me build it, though.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

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duducrash
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Post by duducrash » 1 year ago

I think there are 36 1 or 2 drop rats and a few mono b or collorless 1 and 2 drop infect, if your meta isnt prepared for low curve you can constantly kill the table, one player at the time starting at t4 With Karumix, bad players are not prepared for low curve builds I think

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DirkGently
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Post by DirkGently » 1 year ago

@duducrash

How does that math? Even if you play 3 1-drops on turns 1-2 and karumonix on 3, that's 3 poison on 3 and another 4 poison on 4 for 7 total, so they aren't dead until 5. And of course that's assuming zero interaction or blockers, which is optimistic even for my meta.

Doesn't really matter, though - I think karumonix is awful, but nobody in my group has voted for him so I'll just be happy that I don't have to build him.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

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duducrash
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Post by duducrash » 1 year ago

Yes, should start to kill players on T5. Overly casual tables struggle with anything that goes wide on early games, folks will want to ramp and cast big spells.

It wont work on regular tables, but from what ive heard in your games you shouldnt have much problem to either kill the first 1-2 and rebuild and kill the last 1-2

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DirkGently
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Post by DirkGently » 1 year ago

duducrash wrote:
1 year ago
Yes, should start to kill players on T5. Overly casual tables struggle with anything that goes wide on early games, folks will want to ramp and cast big spells.

It wont work on regular tables, but from what ive heard in your games you shouldnt have much problem to either kill the first 1-2 and rebuild and kill the last 1-2
I wouldn't say that's an accurate description of most of the decks played (though it might be of some). Ramping into big spells is at least a coherent plan, so that's not where they tend to fail in construction. More likely that Jon will play a Candlegrove Witch or some other random garbage that has no place in his deck, but is still perfectly capable of blocking a 1/1 rat. And turn 5 really isn't that fast considering how easily it falls apart.

Besides being bad, though, I wouldn't build it that way because I don't own a bunch of the near-vanilla 1/1 rats to make that version of the deck with and I'm sure not paying cash money for them. So I'd probably mostly ignore the etb effect and play it like a combo deck.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

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DirkGently
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Post by DirkGently » 1 year ago

Had a bit of a shouting match over commander last night. Curious to get some outside opinions.

It's me, Jon, and James.

I'm playing my Tocasia, Dig Site Mentor set-commander deck. Pretty low-powered imo.

James tends to play fairly low-powered chaffy homebrew decks and isn't a great player, but honestly he's a much better learner than Jon. He's playing the UW flyers precon (that series of reprint-only ones that came out recently) running Kangee, Sky Warden as commander.

Jon is playing The Ur-Dragon as his commander. I don't consider dragon tribal to be particularly strong in a 75% meta, but in this context it's definitely the most explosive deck at the table.

Jon gets an early (t1 or t2) sol ring into arcane signet, then Panharmonicon and lightning greaves, iirc. By turn 4 or 5 (I think) he gets out Miirym, Sentinel Wyrm with the greaves on. Next turn, he plays his commander, so he has 3 ur-dragons + miirym. Best thing I've got out is Surge Engine as a 5/4, and I think I copied it, and I'm hitting him as hard as I can because I don't have any other answer to him except lethal pressure. The turn after he plays the ur-dragon, I hit for 10 to put him to 14. I'm coordinating with James to figure out how to avoid losing. He blows up the panharmonicon and the lightning greaves, but I still can't do much except damage. James just has out a couple flyers + his commander, nothing too exciting. As far as I'm concerned, we're 100% co-op mode at this point to stop Jon, given that next turn he can lethal me in the air, draw 12, and put 3 dragons into play for free, all of which get doubled.

Jon's been a little grumpy about me hitting him and having his stuff blown up, but now things get a little more confrontational. "This is always what he does," he tells James, "he's going to manipulate you into killing me, and then he'll be able to kill you. That's how he wins every time."

I point out that he has a game-winning board state, and that he's given us no alternative but to cooperate. But he continues saying similar things. "He'll kill me, and then he'll be able to kill you with his unblockable creatures". Nevermind that James is still on 40+ and I have no flying defense and he could easily race me down with what's on board. Things get a bit yelly.

On James' turn, it turns out he has a board wipe, which he uses - I think this was the only way we weren't going to lose, tbh. Having already lost the greaves and the parharmonicon, Jon is set back pretty hard, though he still has a lot of mana. I think enough to recast his commander although I'm not sure. At any rate, he functionally concedes by not playing anything else and sulking, and I kill him a few turns later to prevent him pulling together another scary board state.

I recur my surge engine and it's a fairly close race (I also get some funky stuff going with Drafna, Founder of Lat-Nam and bouncing+copying Thran Spider and Goblin Firebomb), but James gets down multiple strong draw engines (Bident of Thassa, Isperia, Supreme Judge) which force me to play defense, given he's still at 30 life. I topdeck my one board wipe, Urza's Sylex, and although I hate to use it (I do have a lot of creatures in play at this point) I think it's my only out at this point. I'm able to recover better than James and do ultimately win the game.

So I find this whole thing pretty frustrating. His board state literally gave us no alternative but to gang up on him, at least from my perspective not knowing that James had a board wipe. I definitely don't consider anything I said to James as manipulation, just pointing out the threat level that Jon posed - and I was even happy to say that James could reasonably look towards reigning in my board state knowing that he'll have to fight me if we're able to stop/kill Jon, and I might have a better board state overall if we went 1v1 (though he had more evasive damage). But on the other hand, it is true that games do often play out in that way - Jon creates a very threatening board state, I rally the other players to kill him, and ultimately I win.

Another wrinkle is that Jon frequently doesn't do obviously-correct moves - so there's at least some possibility that he just...doesn't attack on the next turn. He didn't attack with Miirym the turn he played his commander, even though it would have let him draw 3 and put 3 permanents into play. So I think he genuinely sees himself as less of a threat than he otherwise would be, because he often doesn't use his cards in a remotely optimal way. He looks at a game-winning board state and just...doesn't know what to do with it. But personally, unless the only way I can win is if my opponent makes a mistake (or maaaybe if they've already missed the play on previous turns and I don't think they'll notice it in the future), I tend to assume my opponent will use their cards in an optimal way, and treat them as a threat according to that.

I dunno. Frustrating situation overall. What do you guys think?
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

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pokken
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Post by pokken » 1 year ago

If you got three urdragons and a lightning greaves you're the target.

Why didn't he equip one and swing?

Whatever. What I think you need to do is stop talking about the board state and let people make their plays. It's the only way to get past this stuff. Just stop the table talk. When I did this my experience of the game completely changed.

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DirkGently
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Post by DirkGently » 1 year ago

@pokken

Iirc he equipped the greaves on the turn he played ur-dragon, then James blew up the greaves in response to him going to combat. He still could have swung with miirym though and just didn't. In general he has a pretty fuzzy idea of how his cards work and doesn't think very hard about his plays.

There was also a bit of a tiff over announcing going to combat. Jon (and James) keep wanting to just go immediately to combat, and start doing things like drawing the cards right away off the ur-dragon trigger before anyone has passed priority. Which, fair enough first time around when they're not aware of how it works, but when they keep doing it I get kinda frustrated. Not directly related but did add to my overall annoyance and yelliness of the evening.

From my recollection, I don't think I said anything like "Jon has a scary board state, get him!" to James. I didn't have to, it was obvious. I did make suggestions about which things of Jon's to target when James was casting removal (he'd already started casting it - I don't remember if he'd asked for my opinion or if I interjected it when he was looking at targets), and pointed out the scariness of Jon's board state to Jon when he got defensive.

I do talk a lot less in this group than I might at a higher powered group. Unless I think someone is making a really egregious misplay in targeting me I'll happily take my lumps. But I do try to offer advice to help them improve. I.e. in the 1v1 game, I told James he should start hitting me to race me down when I had unblockables (before he had his draw engines in play that made my attacks bad). Which ultimately would have won him the game if I hadn't drawn my wipe, I think. James tends to play very passively, passing the turn when he has good attacks. Same for Jon.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

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TheAmericanSpirit
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Post by TheAmericanSpirit » 1 year ago

@DirkGently some amount of irritation will always exist in an insular playgroup. You folks gotta get out more, hit the lgs or something. After a month or so of battling with randos, I imagine you all will appreciate each other's company a little bit more.
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Post by toctheyounger » 1 year ago

DirkGently wrote:
1 year ago
I tend to assume my opponent will use their cards in an optimal way, and treat them as a threat according to that.
Sounds like you might be going a bit hard on him.

I kid, I kid, but maybe this is what it is; I've found that a good game is as much figuring out people's gaming personalities as it is assessing their decks correctly. This guy seems like he's thirsty for the win and might just be getting in his own head as to why you can get there and he can't. Often that's the motivation for going for the biggest baddest commander too. And with that comes the defeatist attitude of 'I can't win, this is what Dirk always does, screw this I'm done'.

If I were you I'd maybe try to teach them some of the minutiae of optimising play lines, sequencing well and threat assessment. It sounds like there could be some salt there if you get too sagely, but there's always a possibility you could just approach it like a conversation and be like 'I wonder how much differently the game might've turned out if you'd attacked X instead of Y' and just get them to engage on the different choices available to them and why you might make those choices. I think starting the ball rolling on those sort of topics can go a long way towards realising what an array of options we have as players and how we can use those to influence others and optimise our chances of winning.

All that depends on how committed you are to your playgroup I guess, but for me, I like to win games against the best people can offer, so in terms of engaging gameplay it might well pay dividends to start them on the track to being fully rounded players.
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Post by pokken » 1 year ago

These days if someone asks me what to target I usually tell them what I'm doing that's scary and that they can make up their own mind.

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Post by toctheyounger » 1 year ago

Yeah I mean I'm not suggesting saying 'this is the right target', I just think mulling over those options and extrapolating from them is a good stepping stone to improving the way you play. Starting to consider these things makes the game way more interesting too. Without it it's just bits of cardboard. With it, your brain actually starts to get involved in a bigger way and that's what gives the game it's myriad levels of variance and individuality.
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Post by DirkGently » 1 year ago

@TheAmericanSpirit the lack of local commander gameplay is why I'm in this group in the first place.

@toctheyounger I do sometimes try to give advice (I think nicely?) but honestly Jon is just such a slow learner.

I did talk a bit about managing your threat profile after that game, but idk if Jon absorbed any of it.

Tbh I think he made the right play, except for not attacking with miirym. The issue was mostly with how butthurt he got from his opponents working together against him. It's a recurring issue tbh. Jon likes buying strong cards, he likes playing strong cards, but he doesn't like it when everyone gangs up against him for playing strong cards, and he doesn't use them well enough a lot of the time to actually win.
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Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
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Post by Dragonlover » 1 year ago

You may have hit the nail on the head when you suggest he doesn't realise what his board state can do. Guy in my playgroup had a Bant +1/+1 counter deck and would be confused when we wrathed his board of 10/10 creatures because to him, the p/t was irrelevant and the counters were just fuel for his shenanigans.

I've started recommending the Spike Feeders channel to new players. Sure, they play at a significantly higher power level of game to most of us, but for table flow, table talk and just general representation of how the game works they're a fantastic resource.

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Post by duducrash » 1 year ago

I never understand people who get mad at being attacked or have their stuff blown up unless its like some grudge targetting happening over and over and over.

Right after in store play came back in like late 2021 I was on a pod with strangers and had a Dragonlord Dromoka on the field and no one had anything scary, I just swung at some random player and he got quite upset and asked me why I was attacking him, do people know that getting their lifetotals to 0 and keeping mine away from 0 is how I win? 🤨

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Post by Dunadain » 1 year ago

Yeah, internet approval is about as valuable as NFTs, but I think you're pretty clearly in the right here @DirkGently.

I will second the keep table talk to a minimum suggestion (That's what I always do), but it sounds like you were doing that.
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Post by ISBPathfinder » 1 year ago

duducrash wrote:
1 year ago
I never understand people who get mad at being attacked or have their stuff blown up unless its like some grudge targetting happening over and over and over.

Right after in store play came back in like late 2021 I was on a pod with strangers and had a Dragonlord Dromoka on the field and no one had anything scary, I just swung at some random player and he got quite upset and asked me why I was attacking him, do people know that getting their lifetotals to 0 and keeping mine away from 0 is how I win? 🤨
I think players expect that having nothing in play means that they don't need to be attacked and they expect someone else to take the attacks in those situations. If I were him I guess I would question if you were trying to run me down but connecting to players on a mostly open board and gaining life / doing damage should be expected. There might be a question as to why he was chosen but if nobody had anything then whoever you expect to be the biggest long term problem is who gets the whack in my book.

@materpillar I won a game of snap yesterday with a 1468 venom in one lane and a 904 venom in another. Man it was some glory involving Bar Sinister, Venom, and Arim Zola lol. I am unsure if my opponent thought they could win the other two lanes or just wanted to see how insane things were going to get.
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Post by materpillar » 1 year ago

Hot take: I don't think @DirkGently is clearly in the right.
DirkGently wrote:
1 year ago
Jon's been a little grumpy about me hitting him and having his stuff blown up, but now things get a little more confrontational. "This is always what he does," he tells James, "he's going to manipulate you into killing me, and then he'll be able to kill you. That's how he wins every time."



On James' turn, it turns out he has a board wipe, which he uses - I think this was the only way we weren't going to lose, tbh.



I'm able to recover better than James and do ultimately win the game
From where I'm sitting it sounds like Jon was absolutely correct in his assessment of the situation. You got the table to gang up on him, deplete their resources stopping him and then you won the resulting scrap. Sounds like this happens a lot and Jon doesn't know how to stop it from happening. He can't simply make his decks stronger to kill you easier or it just makes it easier for you to push him under the bus. He can't match you in terms of maneuvering the table because he doesn't have thousands of hours of experience maneuvering a table. He doesn't have the game knowledge to out game you in game. He probably sees no decent way to stop these things and that's probably extremely frustrating.

His line should have been looking at Jon and going "Dirk is right my board state is scary but think back to the last handful of games. You'll stop me and then Dirk will kill you. It happens every time. I won't attack you until after I murder him if you don't wrath." That's what he was trying to do but communicated it very poorly because he's still bad at this.
So I find this whole thing pretty frustrating. His board state literally gave us no alternative but to gang up on him, at least from my perspective not knowing that James had a board wipe.

I dunno. Frustrating situation overall. What do you guys think?
His board state gave you literally no alternative but ganging up. It sounds like James could have sandbagged that wrath until after you were dead as it basically killed Jon.

Maybe James couldn't have killed John after he drew 12 cards with his dragons even with his wrath. Maybe not. I'm very unaware. But he had that option and you steered him away from it and instead weaponized him towards killing Jon.

What's your winrate with these guys sitting at now Dirk? Sounds to me like you're unintentionally downplaying your own threat level pretty hard. You're a force multiplier on top of your cards while they're the opposite. You can look at a board state and say who should win if everything is played optimally so you point that out. The thing is no one is playing optimally in your group so the information you're giving out is technically true but in practice is wildly inaccurate. My impression is that James and Jon should basically just kill you at the beginning of every game independent of boardstates if they want to maximize their winrate.

@ISBPathfinder noice. I still don't have Venom. I hit infinite way earlier so I've been messing around with a Debri+Viper fill my opponents board list. It's really fun. I also figured out how to make Mr Negative work. I built in a Wong package with Thor+Lady Thor as a backup plan.

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Post by TheAmericanSpirit » 1 year ago

@materpillar makes a good pount, Dirk. What is your win%? Just ballpark it.
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Post by duducrash » 1 year ago

I think boots were made for walking and creatures were made for attacking, if you have to justify each time you turn a creature sideways you'll spend the whole night talking over stuff that might not matter at the end of the day, unless it's something big like kingmaking or a big situation where you can make a deal I think it's both a waste of time and awkward, maybe next time I wont attack that person because I know they'll make a scene over one creature.


My coworker is getting back into mtg and built a commander deck with cards he had back home, and he runs Hermit Druid with like 22 basics, and it's better than I tought it would be.

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Post by pokken » 1 year ago

G mill six and draw a card is pretty good heh

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Post by toctheyounger » 1 year ago

DirkGently wrote:
1 year ago
Tbh I think he made the right play, except for not attacking with miirym. The issue was mostly with how butthurt he got from his opponents working together against him. It's a recurring issue tbh. Jon likes buying strong cards, he likes playing strong cards, but he doesn't like it when everyone gangs up against him for playing strong cards, and he doesn't use them well enough a lot of the time to actually win.
It feels like he's not really got a handle on strong cards with a low threat profile vs high threat profile. Dragons are as discreet as a fart in a library, you can't miss them. You know that and I know that, he clearly doesn't. I think if you've had these discussions you might just need to save your breath and wait for him to be receptive to have that discussion, if ever. Having it while he's packing a sad won't get you anywhere, he won't listen. Until he's ready to admit that he's getting in his own way he's going to keep losing.

That could be part of why he's so shouty about it too - he's frustrated that he can't get there, but he's projecting those feelings onto you so he doesn't feel like a failure. It's a pretty common thing to do in many scenarios, and if that's the case you'll just have to wait for him to ground himself and hope he wants to talk about it.

The other option is to dumb your own plays down, but that seems like pandering and personally I would hate that being done to me.
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Post by DirkGently » 1 year ago

materpillar wrote:
1 year ago
Hot take: I don't think @DirkGently is clearly in the right.
How dare.
From where I'm sitting it sounds like Jon was absolutely correct in his assessment of the situation. You got the table to gang up on him, deplete their resources stopping him and then you won the resulting scrap. Sounds like this happens a lot and Jon doesn't know how to stop it from happening. He can't simply make his decks stronger to kill you easier or it just makes it easier for you to push him under the bus. He can't match you in terms of maneuvering the table because he doesn't have thousands of hours of experience maneuvering a table. He doesn't have the game knowledge to out game you in game. He probably sees no decent way to stop these things and that's probably extremely frustrating.
I don't think I really agree with this characterization. For one thing, I had no idea that James had a board wipe in hand, and I certainly wasn't pressuring him to use it. FWIW it also destroyed a lot of my own stuff, significantly more than James' stuff (it was a Time Wipe so it also saved one of his creatures). I wasn't trying to deplete his resources, but rather trying to do literally anything possible to stop Jon given that he had a position that was almost a guaranteed win on the next turn if left undisturbed. If it had taken every resource I had to wipe his board, I would have gladly done it. I wasn't playing Phelddagrif where I'm secretly holding a hand full of answers and hoping other people will use theirs instead. I had no answer to Jon, and (from my perspective not knowing about the wipe) nor did James. I didn't ask to look at his hand to fully collaborate or anything, I just informed him which targets were most valuable for the targeted removal he was already casting. Also FWIW, he cast a Crush Contraband to kill greaves (I think) with Jon having no enchantments but me having two, and I pointed out that he could kill either of them for free (I don't remember what he decided to do with that information though). So I absolutely reject the idea that I'm trying to manipulate the table to deplete their resources in this case. I guess he did deplete a couple cards destroying jon's supporting artifacts (possibly unnecessarily), which I did offer advice on what to target with them, but at the time I thought that was all he had to slow Jon down. It's possible that he did topdeck the time wipe, not sure about that.

Now, that said, I think a common dynamic in games is:

I'm playing a low-powered deck.
James (or Mike) is playing a mid-low powered deck.
Jon is playing a mid-powered deck badly.
Jon gets out to an early lead because his cards are comparatively powerful.
Jon becomes an inevitable threat that basically must be stopped.
We succeed in knocking him down to a safe level.
He gets sulky and basically stops playing once he's sufficiently set back.
Once it's a 2-player game, I'm a better player so I typically win.

The rare game that Jon does win, it's usually because he gets something fairly stupid happening quickly and nobody has answers for it. The aforementioned dragon game had all the hallmarks of a "Jon just has a stronger deck so he runs away with it sometimes" game, up until the board wipe.

I do agree with your assessment of how he perceives it, but I'm not sure what the solution is. His main tactic seems to be to just buy more powerful cards/decks, which does sometimes result in the "Jon just has a ..." game sometimes, which I'm fine with - kind of a relief that he wins sometimes - but I don't feel like it's probably helping him grow much as a player, and I'm not sure how satisfying it is for him. Idk, maybe he doesn't mind.
His line should have been looking at Jon and going "Dirk is right my board state is scary but think back to the last handful of games. You'll stop me and then Dirk will kill you. It happens every time. I won't attack you until after I murder him if you don't wrath." That's what he was trying to do but communicated it very poorly because he's still bad at this.
That's an interesting possibility were Jon way more skilled at politics, though it is undercut somewhat by the fact that nobody except james knew he had the wipe. I guess he could have said it to convince him to takesies-backsies the wipe, though James tends to be fairly "nope, too late, I did it, it happened."

I do also think that's a very dangerous play for James given that he has much fewer cards in hand (post Jon's draw-12), mana on board, and a much weaker deck overall, plus Jon gets to reload first and he might have some Teferi's Protection-type answers for the wipe to draw into. Given that a significant reason I did win the resulting game was because I topdecked the only wipe in the deck on the turn I needed it, I think his odds were significantly better against me. I'm fairly sure Jon's deck also includes Scourge of Valkas and possibly other cards that would allow him to kill James the same turn he kills me, depending on how spirit-of-the-law he's being with his deals.
His board state gave you literally no alternative but ganging up. It sounds like James could have sandbagged that wrath until after you were dead as it basically killed Jon.

Maybe James couldn't have killed John after he drew 12 cards with his dragons even with his wrath. Maybe not. I'm very unaware. But he had that option and you steered him away from it and instead weaponized him towards killing Jon.
To clarify if it wasn't clear already, I didn't tell him to cast the wrath. The first time I knew he had a wrath was when he said "I'm casting Time Wipe."

I might have said something along the lines of "I think if we don't topdeck a wrath this turn, Jon is going to win the game on his next turn." I dunno, maybe that's manipulative on some level, but my intention was to help them develop some degree of threat assessment/prioritization. A lot of new players will do things like attacking random opponents even when one player is clearly nearing a win - i.e. well, I can't attack through 3 ur-dragons, so I guess I'll smash the other opponent in the face because fewer opponent life points = good for me, which is obviously faulty reasoning when the board state is that skewed. I think it's important to be able to look at a board state and see that, based on the information at hand, the game is essentially 2v1. There was practically nothing James could do at that point that would cause me to target him, and similarly practically nothing I could do should cause him to target me, until Jon was brought down somewhat (given the power level of both our decks - ofc in a higher-powered game there are combos etc that might make another player an even bigger threat than 3-ur-dragons-mcGee, but afaik neither of our decks were remotely capable of anything that explosive, so Jon's board state was several orders of magnitude more powerful than anything we had or could develop anytime soon, or possibly ever). It was also to inform Jon how strong his position is, just so HE'S clear about it, because he does frequently go "why are you so threatened by me? All I have is (very powerful board state relatively to everyone else)." And so he doesn't fart around attacking with 1 ur-dragon so he can block with the other ones, just in case he's dumb enough to do that (I don't think he is, but you can never be too sure).
What's your winrate with these guys sitting at now Dirk? Sounds to me like you're unintentionally downplaying your own threat level pretty hard. You're a force multiplier on top of your cards while they're the opposite. You can look at a board state and say who should win if everything is played optimally so you point that out. The thing is no one is playing optimally in your group so the information you're giving out is technically true but in practice is wildly inaccurate. My impression is that James and Jon should basically just kill you at the beginning of every game independent of boardstates if they want to maximize their winrate.
@TheAmericanSpirit Winrate depends somewhat on who's playing and which decks we're playing, but the relevant bit is that it's typically quite high. I don't think it's that different from what it is for LGS play where everyone is playing stronger decks, but it's at least 65% I think. After winning two games that particular night, I lost the third one (primarily from color screw, crappy 90% basics manabase...). At a certain point I am rooting for them to win, but I'm not going to hold back - though I might give them increasingly more advice.

I think it depends on the game state whether you can plausibly make the argument that my information is "wildly inaccurate" based on assumed opponent competence. Jon is a terrible player, but I'm pretty sure even he could figure out how to win with 3 ur-dragons and a miirym. If the game is close enough that plausible misplays could determine who comes out ahead, I usually don't bother saying anything and just leave it up to them. Again, I think the only point at which I said how much of a threat Jon is, was when he started getting huffy about getting targeted. Partly because I didn't want James to feel like he was making a mistake in targeting Jon when he clearly wasn't.

I think if I get deleted from the game at the start, Jon wins 95% of those games against James just based on card power (with these decks, at least). So great for Jon, probably not so much for James. My path is frequently (as somewhat detailed above) to help James stop Jon, then win the 1v1 against him. If James spurns my help, we both just lose.

My opinion is that one of the biggest issues Jon needs to deal with in order to win more often is to stop completely giving up as soon as he encounters setbacks. So many games he just shuts down because his big cool engine got blown up, and if he just sucked it up, dusted himself off, and got back into the game he'd realize that he still has a perfectly reasonable chance to win. I've had games where he concedes, and I'll show him how his hand has all the tools to mount a comeback. But he didn't get to win exactly the way he wanted to with no pushback, so he sulks.

My parents are in town so I had to wait all day to respond to this :fuming: :rofl:
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Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

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