[Off-Topic] Community Chat Thread

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Lifeless
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Post by Lifeless » 1 year ago

Guardman wrote:
1 year ago
The Fifth Element is just one of those movies that is just pure, undiluted fun. No matter how bad of a day I am having, I can watch it and feel better.
It really is just a good old 90s time. It's like the Mummy where if I happen to randomly pass it on TV I'm just going to watch the whole damn thing.

As much as I'm a guy who thinks people should like what they like this poster is pretty horrifying. I tend to generally have a couple favorites per genera or even per actor so it's hard for me to even make a list of my favorites. Although if pressed the top 3 are probably Aliens, Drunken Master 2, and Blazing Saddles in that order. Notable runners up include the Raid, Shaolin Soccer, Mallrats, the Crow, and Big Trouble in Little China.
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Post by Ulka » 1 year ago

My top 5 movies everyone should watch at some point are:

Saving Private Ryan or now All's Quiet on the Western Front
Do the Right Thing
Star Wars: a New Hope
Schindler's List
Inside Out

That's said I love Aliens and the Thing but I often find those are more enjoyment which doesn't stack up to the art, culture and message that my list of five make us aware of.
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Post by TheAmericanSpirit » 1 year ago

@DirkGently I'm a man of my word. I watched Yojimbo on Wednesday night, and I had a real good time aside from the fact that I had to take notes. Anyway, I proudly present...
Yojimbo: What I Liked About It and Why
Now with 100% More Specific Examples

So let's get the elephant out of the room: this soundtrack absolutely slaps. Lemme cite some specific examples:






I think all these pieces do wonders to establish characters and settings, including the "goofy" wood block you mention in Unpleasant Reception. These were just my favorites, but generally I think Masaru Sato did a really good job blending traditional Japanese instrumentation, theatrical orchestral music, and jazz in really creative way. The main theme for the hero is bombastic, bold, and unkempt, with more composed undertones. It's because of the strength of this specific theme that allows the opening scene to function so smoothly. Mifune walks onscreen, squints, and scratches his head, then trudges onward. The music that accompanies his arrival heightens what we can observe visually: this dude is a samurai, but perhaps not the cleanest cat. It begins with a grave string section, but as soon as he's walking, it's a bombastic trumpet number. The first ten seconds set expectations, the following minute destroys them while still keeping a refined undertone, beautifully mirroring Mifune as a shabby aimless samurai walking somewhere because a airborne stick suggested it. Unpleasant Reception is really menacing and a great intro for Criminal Town, I really don't see how the wood blocks detract but that may come down to taste. Unosuke's theme is really short and plays almost every time he shows up, and it sounds to me like a chill down my spine feels. I dig it, it's fitting for a fairly scary and intelligent villain.

But see, I can see the future. You know my bias. You're gonna bring out the trump card. And you know what, there's not a single %$#%$#% song in this entire movie that can compare to the sheer artistic triumph of that particular song. Hell, I think that particular song blows the better half of John Williams' discography out of the water, don't even @ me on that because it's objectively true. But I will say this: I've never seen a song from Yojimbo commercially associated with a beer as %$#% as Modelo, nor am I constantly teased by said advertising campaign with anticipation for a great song that never %$#% arrives. So imho, points to Sato for not selling out. Ultimately I can't change your mind on your innate and specific enjoyment of music, but I think this at least may flesh out what people were referring to when praising the score. Moving on!

[All timestamps refer to the copy provided by @pokken thanks btw :love: you saved me a trip to the library]

There's a few scenes that I think are worth examining as particular highlights. The scene (21:15-23:31) in which he agrees to work for Seibei, only to eavesdrop that gang boss and his wife plotting to kill him after using his talents is great and funny to boot. Not only do we get see the main character quietly demonstrate his savvy when dealing with dangerous people, but we also get the hilarious mass reaction shot of all the prostitutes watching this random samurai listen to their bosses plot to him. At the point where Mifune decides to get up and scoot back to his room, he's basically got the size and shape of what he's up against with the Seibei gang. Great scene, plot movies along nicely without too much talking with a dash of humor. I liked that.

While we're on humor, lemme also just say this: Kurosawa has a great sense of it. It's hilarious how Seibei's top dude is so offended by the disparity between his salary and the hero's that he run aways before the the big fight after telling Seibei all about how he'll "prove his worth". The first confrontation in the street between the gangs [29:16-32:26] seems like pure comedy, but it also shows the inherent cowardice of the criminals and demonstrates why the hero can use his superior skill to such great effect throughout the film. I love how they just call it a draw and that great moment where the rival leaders accidentally bump into each other is priceless just for the looks on the actors. I also wanna say that the dynamic of the innkeeper and the casket maker is a funny through line for the movie, I really enjoyed whenever they were onscreen together.

On the other end of the spectrum, I damn near teared up at the whole scene where the hero saves the sake maker's wife (1:03:21-1:11:04), even if ultimately it was a opportunistic way to escalate the gang war. It begins so darkly, the sake maker is drinking his sorrows because his wife got kidnapped and as he leaves the inn, the hero remarks that "Guys like that make me sick". Yet almost immediately, he figures out a way to not only help the guy and his family out, but also escalate the tension in the conflict he needs to create for his master plan. The fight inside the house is wicked, the hero ices six dudes in like 30 seconds. I guess in the age of John Wick it's a little tame, but I liked it. Anyway, he rescues the dame, reunites the fam, and gives them a pretty huge amount of money for Feudal Japan, and then goes back in to frame the rival gang for the rescue. What I like about this is that he's in there wrecking the place for a solid minute, just enough time for him and the audience to forget about the family he just reunited. When he comes back out, what the %$#%, they're still here?! Of course they're still here, they're good people, they just had to thank him even if it's completely contrary to their immediate self interest to do so. It's a nice touch that the main character immediately tries to scare them off with threats, but when he hears trouble coming, he cares about them enough to scrape up the money they dropped and quickly hand it to them. Lovely acting by Mifune to really sell the Tough Guy with a Heart of Gold trope, I liked that a lot and was genuinely moved by this whole bit.

I also liked the interrogation scene[1:15:06-1:18:47] when Unosuke basically figures out what's up and comes to hunt down the hero, excellent tension and an excellent example of the score used to great effect to amplify the stakes. The fact that his good deed came back to bite him is poetic, considering how bent out of whack the town is. I also don't know what you're on about with the Giant Hammer dude not having a payoff, he yeets the %$#% out the hero a few good times in the scenes directly after he gets captured.

I wanna specifically mention the escape scene as well. Now I know cinematography is apparently some kind of weird taboo with you, but I really like the way Kurosawa uses the negative space created by the shadows as the hero climbs under the floorboards and out across alley in this scene. The shot from 1:29:09-1:29:40 is particularly striking, as to me it is the visual summation of the hero's downfall, a mighty warrior reduced to crawling for his life, mere inches away from being drowned in blackness as deep as oblivion. I hope you'll still believe that I enjoyed the movie despite this.

I don't think I'm in the minority here when I say the final fight is just plain awesome, even if it's over pretty quick. He dashes from dude to dude, killing each with one blow. What's not to love? I especially like how the hero lets the obvious coward go instead of killing him and how the dude doesn't stop screaming even after his life has been clearly spared (I looked it up and it's apparently the same kid he saw leaving home to join the gangs at the very beginning. Nice circularity). I also like how for whatever reason the hero gives Unosuke back his %$#% gun. I don't know if the character doesn't know how guns work, or what but I find it funny that his willingness to make the dying guy comfortable almost kills him. Talk about no good deed going unpunished. I will say though I have no clue what the crazy drum dude at the end is supposed to mean or why he stabs somebody. I had forgotten that tbh and I find it very weird. Probably the only part I really didn't like because it felt so out of nowhere in a movie so otherwise meticulously made.

Anyway, that's what I think. I hope this was specific enough to demonstrate that I actually enjoy things and am not a pseudo-intellectual internet poser (at least not in this case).

EDIT: this stupid thing is riddled with typos
Last edited by TheAmericanSpirit 1 year ago, edited 3 times in total.
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Post by pokken » 1 year ago

Watching Seven Samurai and drinking Founders ODB (Scotch Ale for St Patty's day?? Do I have to give back my Irish card?) tonight :)

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Post by TheAmericanSpirit » 1 year ago

pokken wrote:
1 year ago
Watching Seven Samurai and drinking Founders ODB (Scotch Ale for St Patty's day?? Do I have to give back my Irish card?) tonight :)
You're good. I imagine your inner Irishman is just pleased that you're drinking and entertained on a Friday evening.
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Post by pokken » 1 year ago

TheAmericanSpirit wrote:
1 year ago

You're good. I imagine your inner Irishman is just pleased that you're drinking and entertained on a Friday evening.
My name is 100% Irish Bastard so maybe it's OK. I always feel a little bit like a fake irishman anyway since I'm like 3/4 Norwegian despite the 100% Irish name (complete with a bastard surname).

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Post by Dunadain » 1 year ago

So I just finished watching the Maze Runner.

Certainly not a Top 100 movie, but it does earn the distinction of being better than the books.

I was not looking forward to it since the first book wasn't very good and the second book lost my interest about 1/4 in, but the movie was a pleasant surprise, final act kind of dropped off, but Acts 1 and 2 were actually pretty good.
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Post by DirkGently » 1 year ago

@Dunadain While we're talking about YA dystopias on the list, as a huge fan of the (first) hunger games book, the movies were a pretty significant (though not unexpected) disappointment.

I think I've only seen part of the Maze Runner movie on an airplane or something.
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Post by folding_music » 1 year ago

fave three movies are The Conversation (very suspenseful paranoid thriller with basically no action, instead focusing on being a constant cloud of embarrasment and dread)
Halber Mensch (more of an extended artistic music vid for one of my fave bands, Einstuerzende Neubauten)
and ...don't know, a secret third horrible film! Everything I really love seems to be painful or masculine giggle - Fritz the Cat? Brazil? You Were Never Really Here?

this makes me sound like I have horrible miserable taste but I can cry at any film if it's on a big enough screen. take me to whichever Marvel movie's on and I'll be overwhelmed by the production and making sobbing noises at the cheesiest "No... this is for ALL of us" lines imaginable.
(marvel movie top 3: Logan, Guardians 1, Apocalypse??? I've seen Apocalypse so many times, and it's been downplayed... I like all the actors and the "no more superpowers" bit is the coolest scenario they've ever had)

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Post by TheAmericanSpirit » 1 year ago

@DirkGently ngl, I'm kinda bummed you didn't respond to my essay. I even took notes! With timestamps for easy reference! I made a bloody outline! All because I figured that was the effort required to take on the resident forum boss.

I did all that work for a like? C'mon jack, throw me a bone. I told you what I liked about the movie, took the most layman approach to my analysis as possible, and held off on all the pretentious film major jargon. Goose got twice the response and he never gave you timestamps...

I feel cheated. :cry:
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Post by Dunadain » 1 year ago

DirkGently wrote:
1 year ago
@Dunadain While we're talking about YA dystopias on the list, as a huge fan of the (first) hunger games book, the movies were a pretty significant (though not unexpected) disappointment.
I'm glad the YA genre has got over it dystopian phase haha, first hunger games was good (but the rest weren't). Maze Runner and Divergent were both pretty mid.
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Post by pokken » 1 year ago

Man I can't even conceptualize of a list of my top 3-5 movies. I almost never rewatch them.

The movie I've watched the most is A Knight's Tale - which is weirdly a lot sadder to watch after Heath Ledger's death, who I didn't realize was important to me at all until long after.

A handful I can remember really liking:
Memento, Donnie Darko, Flatliners, Flashback, The Matrix, Equilibrium

And Goose is turning me into a Kurosawa fan very quickly, lol. I never really got into this when my buddy Charles had me watch a bunch of them many years ago, but maybe I've learned some patience.

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Post by Dunadain » 1 year ago

I don't know how I would go about assembling a "best 5 list" but I can list some movies in no particular order that would be my first recommendations if you haven't already seen them:

#1 Shawshank Redemption, I don't think any piece of art has moved me the way this movie has. The movie paints such a bleak picture, but rather than embracing despair, it champions hope in a way that doesn't feel at all corny. Plus it has Morgan Freeman.

#2 Into the Spiderverse, I'm sure all the more refined palates in this forum are scoffing, but man this movie is so good. the characters, the tension every time the Prowler is on screen, the conflicting feelings of betrayal and sadness when the Prowler dies. The scene when the other spidermen leave Miles behind, The scene when Mile's Dad talks to him from the otherside of his dorm room. I could go on, somehow they put 8 spider people into one movie and made a coherent story out of it where all the characters are actually lovable and none of them feel like filler. Best spiderman movie ever, don't @ me Toby Macguire stans.

And don't even get me STARTED on the animation, every frame looks like it jumped right out of a comic book, the character designs are bold (look at the kingpin, he is an EGG) but brilliant. The animation in this movie is so good it's inspired an animation renaissance that we haven't seen the likes of since Beauty and the Beast. I love animation, and Into the Spiderverse is proof that their is still so much room for innovation in this medium.

#3 Spirited Away or Princess Mononoke, Studio Ghibli is one of the most consistently amazing producers out there, and these are their two best works. Honestly I'd recommend just about their entire collection, but if you haven't watched either of these, start here.

#4 The Mummy 1999, This movie is objectively not a top 5 movie of all time. Heck it isn't even one of my favorite movies of all time, but it's just so much gosh darn fun. I'm ALWAYS down to rewatch the mummy. It's like the peak 90's movie, not the best movie produced in the 90's but the movie that really excels in all the areas that made the 90's what they were. Also don't waste your time with any remakes.

And I can't think of a #5 so just pretend whatever movie your askance didn't make my top 5 is actually sitting in the #5 spot
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Post by Hermes_ » 1 year ago

Dunadain wrote:
1 year ago
DirkGently wrote:
1 year ago
@Dunadain While we're talking about YA dystopias on the list, as a huge fan of the (first) hunger games book, the movies were a pretty significant (though not unexpected) disappointment.
I'm glad the YA genre has got over it dystopian phase haha, first hunger games was good (but the rest weren't). Maze Runner and Divergent were both pretty mid.
And now they have moved on to murder mystery bookwise/ streaming shows wise
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I feel cheated. :cry:
:hug:
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Post by pokken » 1 year ago

Embarrassed I forgot about shawshank. Good call Hermes_ @Dunadain
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Post by DirkGently » 1 year ago

@TheAmericanSpirit I'm 100% going to have a detailed go at your essay, I just need a bit of time to do it. But don't worry it's definitely going to happen.

I meant to add a mention in my previous post that I appreciated you taking the time and was going to do a detailed response but forgot =\ rip me.
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Post by TheAmericanSpirit » 1 year ago

@DirkGently okay, that makes me feel much better. You had me worried!
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Post by Hermes_ » 1 year ago

pokken wrote:
1 year ago
Embarrassed I forgot about shawshank. Good call @Hermes_
umm that wasn't me but it is a good movie
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Post by pokken » 1 year ago

Hermes_ wrote:
1 year ago
pokken wrote:
1 year ago
Embarrassed I forgot about shawshank. Good call @Hermes_
umm that wasn't me but it is a good movie
...

well, my inability to read probably explains some of it.

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Post by Dunadain » 1 year ago

pokken wrote:
1 year ago
Hermes_ wrote:
1 year ago
pokken wrote:
1 year ago
Embarrassed I forgot about shawshank. Good call @Hermes_
umm that wasn't me but it is a good movie
...

well, my inability to read probably explains some of it.
I'll take that compliment @Hermes_ Thank you very much!
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Post by DirkGently » 1 year ago

@TheAmericanSpirit

Okay, here we go. I hope it was worth the wait!
My detailed response to TheAmericanSpirit's Yojimbo: What I Liked About It and Why
An exhaustively researched report by DirkGently

The music will probably be hard to really reconcile since it's so subjective. At the end of the day, probably the biggest difference between the Yojimbo soundtrack and the dollars trilogy soundtrack is that I would, and have, happily listened to the dollars soundtrack on its own, whereas I can't imagine doing that for Yojimbo. When I listen to most of the songs, I mostly get two things: either they sound really dated, like something I'd imagine a band playing alongside a silent movie, and/or they sound very, well...Japanese, in roughly the style I'd expect from a passively-racist 90s sitcom when an asian character is introduced. Now, obviously the latter isn't the fault of the production, that style was presumably fairly normal at that time/place and wouldn't have been so distracting to the intended audience, but to my modern ear, it's a little on-the-nose. But beyond that, again, it's just not something I'd say I enjoy listening to. I mostly found it distracting and annoying. There are some individual moments in the soundtrack that I do think sound pretty good (most of titles is solid), some of which you highlighted, but I think they're mostly fairly small sections of the soundtrack, and none of it is something I'd enjoy on its own.

Something else I've noticed while rewatching sections of the film is that the music is typically at its loudest when there's relatively little happening on screen. Opening credits over Mifune walking around? Big and bombastic. Once he starts doing something, though, the music generally either disappears or becomes much less obtrusive. It happens at the opening when he picks up the stick, and it happens at the end once the fight commences. I suspect that the use of music is a lot more obtrusive to me for that reason, on both fronts. I really don't like the use of sound during the fight because it clashes with the bombastic buildup. The wind sounds are roughly analogous to crickets to me, a sound that you'd only expect to hear when the point is that it's very quiet, which doesn't gel with a big fight scene. By contrast, the scene where he's just walking around the town, especially once the wood block enters, feels very loud considering that very little is actually happening. It feels like the film is trying to say "wow how exciting" when not much is going on. The overall effect is that I find the soundtrack to really stick out, and since I don't really love the soundtrack in general anyway, it's a pretty big negative. It's entirely possible that GBU uses similar editing and/or that such editing was common for the time, but in GBU I love the soundtrack so I don't mind it being more obtrusive. (and it's also worth noting that I saw GBU as a kid so I may have more rose-tinted glasses for it, and wouldn't like it as much if I saw it fresh)

There's also a decent amount of mickey mousing (at least I think that's the correct term: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mickey_Mousing) which sounds very dated and corny to my modern ears.

It's interesting that apparently ecstasy of gold is so well-liked. Didn't even realize that until now. It was always one of my favorites, but since it doesn't get memed on as much as his more whistling-focused tracks I assumed it was lesser known. It does slap incredibly hard.

Okay, so as far as scenes.

A decent number of scenes I think I enjoyed less because of the overabundance of characters making me either confused about who is involved, or at least not sure enough to fully enjoy the scene. This is probably exacerbated by 1) names that are hard for my western brain to keep straight 2) not being able to use voices to differentiate characters very easily compared to films in English 3) black and white making characters more difficult to tell apart. For example, the first time I watched the scene where the other samurai runs away, I thought it was the same character as the one who just ran up the stairs and told Mifune to follow him and didn't really get what was going on, though on a second viewing it makes a lot more sense. Yeah, yeah, I should have been paying more attention, their outfits are different and the samurai is obviously older, but I do think it's a difficult film to completely follow all of on the first watch.

I'll concede that the eavesdropping scene shows Sanjuro as being clever, but I didn't really get any humor out of it. The prostitutes were more distracting than funny to me. As far as editing, I found it a little confusing - where exactly is Seibei relative to Sanjuro? Seibei seems to be in a closet of some kind but I have no idea where it is. And then I also found it kinda odd that Seibei just immediately is on-board for his wife's plan without even thinking about it.

The fight is just a little too silly for me. The guys freaking out when someone several miles away waves his sword in front of him goes too far. It also goes on for way too long for basically one joke imo, with too many reaction shots of Sanjuro.

I generally liked the way Sanjuro handles the sake maker's wife (I thought one of the mayors was the sake maker? The guy whose caskets get destroyed during the all-out war? Are there two sake makers?). It certainly didn't make me tear up but I thought it was fine. Kinda predictable I guess. The fight is super lame, mostly because the enemies make almost no effort to fight him. But my main issue isn't with Sanjuro but with the other characters, or lack thereof. The wife says almost no dialogue and her only personality trait seems to be wanting her son back. The sake maker's (?) only personality trait seems to be being sad that he lost his wife. And the kid's only personality trait is wanting his mom. Characters who exist only as cardboard cut-outs don't impact me emotionally. My only real note on Sanjuro is that I think the scene would have been better if he gave them less money, maybe last-minute changing the amount to either less or more depending on how you want to portray his character. Even if you want him to ultimately give them all the money, I think it would have been more interesting if he initially gives them half, then grumpily decides to add the other half, maybe when he grabs the money off the ground. Giving away 100% of the money without a second thought is a bit too idealized for me. I also think it would have been a lot more effective if the music had been putting in some work. As usual, when stuff is actually happening, the music takes a back seat. It does show up briefly when they're thanking him, but that theme wasn't effective for me personally. The harpsicord just doesn't really hit my emotion buttons I guess.

The interrogation scene is fine, but idk what you mean about the score. There's no music until the scene is basically over. The little sting at the end is okay but feels very old-movie to me (again with that harpsicord lmao). My issue with the hammer guy is that he's setup in the following scenes as being a relevant muscle character, but there's no payoff in terms of vanquishing him, even though he's clearly visible in the leadup to the final showdown. I had to rewatch it frame by frame to be sure he's even in it - he's almost entirely got his back to the camera and nothing interesting happens, he dies as unceremoniously as everyone else. I would have liked at least a couple seconds of Mifune dodging his hammer or something.

The escape scene is the one place in the movie (well, maybe the shot where he's looking down the from the tower, but I don't like that scene very much overall for aforementioned reasons) where I did think the composition was interesting enough to be noteworthy. So I'll give you that one. I do think it drags on a bit, though, especially the shot you highlighted. I feel like, after a couple seconds, we understand what's going to happen and we don't need to see every second of it.

I'll claim a small victory in noticing on my first watch that the kid he spares was also in the beginning (though I did watch the clip of the final fight first) - the call back is the line about eating gruel. I also did figure out what the drum dude was about (again having prewatched it) - it's the original mayor of the town stabbing the "fake" mayor planted by Ushitora. But also I thought the original mayor was supported by Seibei so idk why he's being such a weird freak, and it goes on for way too long with the drumming. Despite successfully following that part of movie, it wasn't until I read the plot summary and confirmed it that I was sure. So despite understanding what was happening, more or less, I still didn't enjoy that scene at all.

As far as the actual fight - I mean seriously, I don't think any one of the villains actually takes a swing at him. I'm not sure if he has to deflect a blow in the whole movie. The final fight is also so bloodless and boring, it's really obvious that it's a prop sword and has all the impact of a piece of plastic. It seriously does look comparable to a high school LARP. I know, I know, they couldn't exactly CGI someone getting sliced in half, but squibs existed back then. Half his opponents are partially offscreen anyway, one of them could have been a fake body that falls in half, or drop a fake arm, or SOMETHING. I don't like the choice to have so much of it in one wide shot, either, I think having some closeups would have made it feel more dynamic and capture the impact of the action more, as well as making it easier to insert some special effects of dismemberment or blood spurts or whatever. As far as the gun return scene, I would have respected it more if Sanjuro just kicked his gun back to him immediately when he asked for it - the transparent lies plus the length of time Sanjuro examines it, only to give it back to him, make him seem less charitable and more just an idiot. Alternately, I would have gone the other direction - have him clearly see that there are more bullets in the gun, to make it clear that he's deciding to trust his enemy despite the risks (and probably cut the dumb lie about the gun only holding 2 bullets - again that just makes the hero look stupid).
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Post by Toshi » 1 year ago

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Post by TheAmericanSpirit » 1 year ago

Forgive me me if I don't address everything, I guess we need to be mindful of forum bulk for the folks on their phones.
DirkGently wrote:
1 year ago
The music will probably be hard to really reconcile since it's so subjective. At the end of the day, probably the biggest difference between the Yojimbo soundtrack and the dollars trilogy soundtrack is that I would, and have, happily listened to the dollars soundtrack on its own, whereas I can't imagine doing that for Yojimbo. .... There are some individual moments in the soundtrack that I do think sound pretty good (most of titles is solid), some of which you highlighted, but I think they're mostly fairly small sections of the soundtrack, and none of it is something I'd enjoy on its own.
Removing cultural bias from the equation, I don't judge the quality of a soundtrack based on how well it stands on its own. IMO it's more about how well the musical accompaniment supports the overall tone and content of the film. When I say the Unosuke theme slaps, it isn't because it's a song I'd tell my friends to put on all their playlists, but because it provides a fitting encapsulation of the character in 17 seconds. A soundtrack full of great songs that doesn't gel with the film attached to it isn't a great soundtrack because it fails its primary objective. I think beyond this being subjective, we're probably measuring in completely different metrics. C'est la vie.
Something else I've noticed while rewatching sections of the film is that the music is typically at its loudest when there's relatively little happening on screen. Opening credits over Mifune walking around? Big and bombastic. Once he starts doing something, though, the music generally either disappears or becomes much less obtrusive. It happens at the opening when he picks up the stick, and it happens at the end once the fight commences. I suspect that the use of music is a lot more obtrusive to me for that reason, on both fronts. I really don't like the use of sound during the fight because it clashes with the bombastic buildup. The wind sounds are roughly analogous to crickets to me, a sound that you'd only expect to hear when the point is that it's very quiet, which doesn't gel with a big fight scene. By contrast, the scene where he's just walking around the town, especially once the wood block enters, feels very loud considering that very little is actually happening. It feels like the film is trying to say "wow how exciting" when not much is going on. The overall effect is that I find the soundtrack to really stick out, and since I don't really love the soundtrack in general anyway, it's a pretty big negative.
Huh. I did not notice that but then again I liked the soundtrack. That is interesting to point out though, could be a deliberate choice about building and breaking tension or just some archaic sound design theory. Either way, I can see why you find it unpleasant but it don't bother me none. Movies have certainly come a long way though in figuring out how make the medium as palatable to the senses as possible.
I'll concede that the eavesdropping scene shows Sanjuro as being clever, but I didn't really get any humor out of it. The prostitutes were more distracting than funny to me. As far as editing, I found it a little confusing - where exactly is Seibei relative to Sanjuro? Seibei seems to be in a closet of some kind but I have no idea where it is. And then I also found it kinda odd that Seibei just immediately is on-board for his wife's plan without even thinking about it.
It sure looks like they're all in a closet to me, directly diagonal to Sanjuro on the inner perimeter of some kind of courtyard, but I don't know jack about Japanese architecture tbh. As for why Seibei does it, his wife very clearly runs the show here. The way Seibei reacts to her demand to speak to him and the cowed way he follows after her looks like whipped to me, and especially to a likely sexist 1960's era film audience.
The fight is just a little too silly for me. The guys freaking out when someone several miles away waves his sword in front of him goes too far. It also goes on for way too long for basically one joke imo, with too many reaction shots of Sanjuro.
That's sad, I thought this scene was pretty well done. I had a good chuckle when Honma jumped ship and I thought the back and forth was good physical comedy.
The fight is super lame, mostly because the enemies make almost no effort to fight him.
I mean, they got jumped, so yeah, they die pretty quick. It's still cool to watch. They're just goons and the movie has already demonstrated a few times that these gangs suck at fighting for the most part. I dunno what you're missing here.
But my main issue isn't with Sanjuro but with the other characters, or lack thereof. The wife says almost no dialogue and her only personality trait seems to be wanting her son back. The sake maker's (?) only personality trait seems to be being sad that he lost his wife. And the kid's only personality trait is wanting his mom. Characters who exist only as cardboard cut-outs don't impact me emotionally.

I guess... but isn't that just a little cold? I mean, these characters aren't experiencing foreign or abstract emotions, they're all very understandable within the context they're in. Family is separated, family wants to be reunited. Sure, they don't have five acts exploring the depth of their moral ambiguity, but they're the victims here. The fact that they've been victimized should be enough to evoke some empathy. I mean, jeez, are you made of stone?
My only real note on Sanjuro is that I think the scene would have been better if he gave them less money, maybe last-minute changing the amount to either less or more depending on how you want to portray his character. Even if you want him to ultimately give them all the money, I think it would have been more interesting if he initially gives them half, then grumpily decides to add the other half, maybe when he grabs the money off the ground. Giving away 100% of the money without a second thought is a bit too idealized for me.
I 100% disagree. I don't see how the money really matters at all, let alone see the value in him wasting precious seconds haggling with the people he just saved about the exact extent of his generosity. We see Sanjuro state his desire for profit multiple times ("I get paid for killing", etc), but act against it every time he has a chance. Hell, at the end of the movie, he just walks away. without ever paying the innkeeper, but also without actually making any money on this whole escapade either. All of that reads to me as a character to whom money is unimportant, not necessarily operating out of ideals.
My issue with the hammer guy is that he's setup in the following scenes as being a relevant muscle character, but there's no payoff in terms of vanquishing him, even though he's clearly visible in the leadup to the final showdown. I had to rewatch it frame by frame to be sure he's even in it - he's almost entirely got his back to the camera and nothing interesting happens, he dies as unceremoniously as everyone else. I would have liked at least a couple seconds of Mifune dodging his hammer or something.
Fair enough, I could have done with a little more Hammer Man. I did like seeing him throw Sanjuro by the face(!) a few times, but a little more could have been done in the final fight, I'll concede that. This might be a case of Chekov's Gun not quite going off, as they could have just given him a sword and there'd be less expectations attached to him and his weirdly distinct weapon. The hammer itself has none of the payoff that Unosuke's gun has, for example.
The escape scene is the one place in the movie (well, maybe the shot where he's looking down the from the tower, but I don't like that scene very much overall for aforementioned reasons) where I did think the composition was interesting enough to be noteworthy. So I'll give you that one. I do think it drags on a bit, though, especially the shot you highlighted. I feel like, after a couple seconds, we understand what's going to happen and we don't need to see every second of it.
I think it being 31 seconds is actually perfect; the scene isn't about what you know will happen, it's about making you feel the tension inherent in that moment. It goes on as long as it does because crossing the street when you're beaten senseless and being hunted down and you have very little time left to hide, every second away from safety feels like an eternity. To me, this is form following function very elegantly.
I'll claim a small victory in noticing on my first watch that the kid he spares was also in the beginning (though I did watch the clip of the final fight first) - the call back is the line about eating gruel. I also did figure out what the drum dude was about (again having prewatched it) - it's the original mayor of the town stabbing the "fake" mayor planted by Ushitora. But also I thought the original mayor was supported by Seibei so idk why he's being such a weird freak, and it goes on for way too long with the drumming. Despite successfully following that part of movie, it wasn't until I read the plot summary and confirmed it that I was sure. So despite understanding what was happening, more or less, I still didn't enjoy that scene at all.
Good catch, I had no clue the first rewatch. I also did not enjoy the drum bit, as I noted earlier. Very weird.
As far as the actual fight - I mean seriously, I don't think any one of the villains actually takes a swing at him. I'm not sure if he has to deflect a blow in the whole movie. The final fight is also so bloodless and boring, it's really obvious that it's a prop sword and has all the impact of a piece of plastic. It seriously does look comparable to a high school LARP. I know, I know, they couldn't exactly CGI someone getting sliced in half, but squibs existed back then. Half his opponents are partially offscreen anyway, one of them could have been a fake body that falls in half, or drop a fake arm, or SOMETHING. I don't like the choice to have so much of it in one wide shot, either, I think having some closeups would have made it feel more dynamic and capture the impact of the action more, as well as making it easier to insert some special effects of dismemberment or blood spurts or whatever.
I hate to bring up outside context but I think these expectations are just a little unrealistic given the time period in cinema we're dealing in. First off, screw the modern moviemaking school of thought that throws 3,000 nauseating cuts into a fight scene, give me one wide shot over that any day. But really, just try to find me any 60's era film where someone gets bisected onscreen without some major offscreen insinuation to prop it up or imply violence that can't be depicted. Spoiler: they don't exist. Technical limitations and prudish social standards are pretty hard ceilings on what Kurosawa had to work with and I still think he did a pretty great job even so.
As far as the gun return scene, I would have respected it more if Sanjuro just kicked his gun back to him immediately when he asked for it - the transparent lies plus the length of time Sanjuro examines it, only to give it back to him, make him seem less charitable and more just an idiot. Alternately, I would have gone the other direction - have him clearly see that there are more bullets in the gun, to make it clear that he's deciding to trust his enemy despite the risks (and probably cut the dumb lie about the gun only holding 2 bullets - again that just makes the hero look stupid).
Upon rewatching the scene, it seems more like a quick attempt at some final tension. The dramatic irony allows the audience to know Unosuke is still very dangerous, but whether Sanjuro doesn't know or care is not quite clear. I choose to interpret it that he genuinely doesn't know how the gun works, what with being a foreign weapon and all, and doesn't see the harm in giving a dying man his comfort gimmick. I certainly think the scene is funnier that way at least lol.
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Post by DirkGently » 1 year ago

TheAmericanSpirit wrote:
1 year ago
Forgive me me if I don't address everything, I guess we need to be mindful of forum bulk for the folks on their phones.
presumptuous to think anyone else cares about this back and forth lol. Let 'em scroll, I say.
Removing cultural bias from the equation, I don't judge the quality of a soundtrack based on how well it stands on its own. IMO it's more about how well the musical accompaniment supports the overall tone and content of the film. When I say the Unosuke theme slaps, it isn't because it's a song I'd tell my friends to put on all their playlists, but because it provides a fitting encapsulation of the character in 17 seconds. A soundtrack full of great songs that doesn't gel with the film attached to it isn't a great soundtrack because it fails its primary objective. I think beyond this being subjective, we're probably measuring in completely different metrics. C'est la vie.
I agree that a soundtrack can be a good soundtrack without being a great spotify playlist, my point was mostly to head off at the pass any parallels that might exist between dollars and yojimbo on the virtues of dollars having a much more listenable soundtrack, despite possibly having a similar style of sound editing.
Huh. I did not notice that but then again I liked the soundtrack. That is interesting to point out though, could be a deliberate choice about building and breaking tension or just some archaic sound design theory. Either way, I can see why you find it unpleasant but it don't bother me none. Movies have certainly come a long way though in figuring out how make the medium as palatable to the senses as possible.
I agree, my point is just that, given newer films have figured out the more successful way to use music, I don't see the need to subject myself to burnt rat.
It sure looks like they're all in a closet to me, directly diagonal to Sanjuro on the inner perimeter of some kind of courtyard, but I don't know jack about Japanese architecture tbh. As for why Seibei does it, his wife very clearly runs the show here. The way Seibei reacts to her demand to speak to him and the cowed way he follows after her looks like whipped to me, and especially to a likely sexist 1960's era film audience.
From the scenes of Sanjuro moving through the building I think it's basically impossible to know what the relationship of his current position versus Seibei's position is, and I think that's a flaw. I do get the relationship between Seibei and his wife, I just think it was done a little artlessly. I guess it's not really a problem though, more my personal taste.
That's sad, I thought this scene was pretty well done. I had a good chuckle when Honma jumped ship and I thought the back and forth was good physical comedy.
Honma leaving is fun in retrospect, now that I'm not confused about who is who - I initially thought it was the other guy, who was trying to get him to follow to the location of the fight (in my defense, both of them were barely characters, and one shot follows the other). I do still think the scene goes on too long by a little bit. I think the fight goes on too long by a lotta bit. Have a back and forth once or twice, sure, but it happens over and over and over. WE GET IT. And how many times will Sanjuro find it funny?
I mean, they got jumped, so yeah, they die pretty quick. It's still cool to watch. They're just goons and the movie has already demonstrated a few times that these gangs suck at fighting for the most part. I dunno what you're missing here.
I can see how it arguably makes sense in the context of the movie (although jfc I'm pretty sure I could at least manage the concept of "swing a sword at the guy" better than they could) (also they fight basically exactly the same as the finale fight where they were fully prepared), but I absolutely do not understand the "cool to watch" part. Sanjuro doesn't, as far as I can tell, demonstrate any great mastery, and his enemies don't seem to pose any threat. Part of the fun of fistful is Eastwood being superhumanly fast on the draw. His opponents are dangerous, but he's even more dangerous. Yojimbo feels more like watching a ten-year-old beat up a bunch of six-year-olds.
I guess... but isn't that just a little cold? I mean, these characters aren't experiencing foreign or abstract emotions, they're all very understandable within the context they're in. Family is separated, family wants to be reunited. Sure, they don't have five acts exploring the depth of their moral ambiguity, but they're the victims here. The fact that they've been victimized should be enough to evoke some empathy. I mean, jeez, are you made of stone?
My #1 hate in all dramatic media is when I can tell that I'm being manipulated. Nothing dries up my eyes faster than when the intentions of the author are so transparent. Those characters aren't characters, they're transparently props for Sanjuro's character development, and I will not be ham-handedly forced to feel anything for them, dammit.

If you want me to care about characters, they better feel like fully-fleshed out organic living-and-breathing characters. Not cardboard.
I 100% disagree. I don't see how the money really matters at all, let alone see the value in him wasting precious seconds haggling with the people he just saved about the exact extent of his generosity. We see Sanjuro state his desire for profit multiple times ("I get paid for killing", etc), but act against it every time he has a chance. Hell, at the end of the movie, he just walks away. without ever paying the innkeeper, but also without actually making any money on this whole escapade either. All of that reads to me as a character to whom money is unimportant, not necessarily operating out of ideals.
That my point - he doesn't act like a human. I don't know the exact value of the money he has, but based on how it's treated, I'm assuming it's somewhere in the high tens of thousands, to low hundreds of thousands. A lot more than that family would need to get away and get a fresh start. And he is currently broke. Him not even keeping one for himself, or even thinking about keeping one for himself, just reads as an alien to me. I want my heroes to be a bit grittier, a bit more human.
This might be a case of Chekov's Gun not quite going off
yes, exactly that.
I think it being 31 seconds is actually perfect; the scene isn't about what you know will happen, it's about making you feel the tension inherent in that moment. It goes on as long as it does because crossing the street when you're beaten senseless and being hunted down and you have very little time left to hide, every second away from safety feels like an eternity. To me, this is form following function very elegantly.
He's already spent a fair amount of screen time escaping their fortress, though, and 31 seconds is a really freaking long time to watch very little happen. I didn't feel much tension because there's not a lot happening to make you think it's likely that he'll get caught. Anyway, there was already plenty of tension in the previous scenes. Time to move on. Incidentally, the scene afterwards where they look in the restaurant and somehow don't find him despite him being in essentially the only hiding place in the entire building is pretty comical, and not in a good way. I would have destroyed them at hide-and-go-seek when I was a nine-year-old.
I hate to bring up outside context but I think these expectations are just a little unrealistic given the time period in cinema we're dealing in. First off, screw the modern moviemaking school of thought that throws 3,000 nauseating cuts into a fight scene, give me one wide shot over that any day. But really, just try to find me any 60's era film where someone gets bisected onscreen without some major offscreen insinuation to prop it up or imply violence that can't be depicted. Spoiler: they don't exist. Technical limitations and prudish social standards are pretty hard ceilings on what Kurosawa had to work with and I still think he did a pretty great job even so.
But we have a quadrillion movies made since then that don't have those limitations, so I just don't see the appeal of burnt rat. And I'm not talking about 3000 cuts, just a couple cuts would have helped. The wide angle showing everything, and in particular how inept the villains are and how unimpressive Sanjuro is, is a big problem imo. A few closer up shots with a few cuts could mask that a lot better, without even needing fancy special effects.
Upon rewatching the scene, it seems more like a quick attempt at some final tension. The dramatic irony allows the audience to know Unosuke is still very dangerous, but whether Sanjuro doesn't know or care is not quite clear. I choose to interpret it that he genuinely doesn't know how the gun works, what with being a foreign weapon and all, and doesn't see the harm in giving a dying man his comfort gimmick. I certainly think the scene is funnier that way at least lol.
It's definitely unclear at all points how well he understands what's going on, and I don't really dig that for a character who's supposed to be clever. If he had been set up as clueless in some regards then it might have been more interesting, but as-is I just find it confusing.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

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