[Off-Topic] Community Chat Thread

[TheAmericanSpirit]

@TheGildedGoose Easily 7 Samurai. I could watch it or the Magnificent 7 (1960 version ofc) anytime, any place.

Sad to hear you didn't like it, @DirkGently. C'est la vie, there is no accounting for taste. At least you're not one of the sick %$#% with whom I work that won't stop talking about the new Winnie the Pooh horror movie. That's not a matter of accounting, that's a measure of complete absence.

[TheGildedGoose]

You talk too much.

Wait, what? I'm not sure how you think I'm moved the goalposts

A cave painting can be anthropologically interesting. It might even emotionally move you, to see a glimpse of the unfathomable eons of human existence. But what you probably aren't going to think is "wow, what a compelling narrative. That stick figure character sure is awesome."

Are you making the claim that Yojimbo doesn't have a compelling narrative?

... but then you claim that your original point was something you never said? It's relatively common knowledge that Fistful is an unauthorized remake of Yojimbo...

I sincerely doubt you knew this before my post. It likely would've informed your reading of it.

Don't even come at me with that "you're too American" crap. I don't even live in America Lily and I are currently watching an Icelandic Netflix show (trapped) and loving it (2/2 on Icelandic Netflix shows - Katla was even better). Other solid Netflix watches recently have been 1899 (%$#% ending though) (German), Alice in Borderland (Japanese), Cunk on Earth (British), Exception (Japan), Glitch (%$#% ending though) (Australian), Squid Game (South Korea), Hellbound (South Korea)...okay at this point it's starting to feel very "I have a black friend" but idk how else to prove that I enjoy plenty of foreign cinema.

I would appreciate this argument if you named literally one movie at any point in it. Equating Netflix shows to 'cinema' is just... I mean...

I could talk about how Kurosawa was highly influenced by historical Japanese theater, but you seem uninterested in exploring how differing cultural backgrounds inform international directors, so here we are. Again, distinctly American.

I'll happily admit to preferring modern cinema though. Modern things aren't default better, obviously, but it makes sense that, as we learn, we're capable of creating better and better things. Anybody think a 1985 Macintosh "holds up"? Anybody want to travel by horse and buggy? Anyone want to eat burnt rat? If Kurosawa had been born in 1980 and was directing movies now, I'm sure they'd be a hell of a lot more compelling than Yojimbo since they'd be built on a much greater depth of collective experience that didn't exist in 1961. When a movie does hold up as long as, I would argue, GBU, it's a bit of a miracle. Yojimbo has not accomplished that miracle imo.

I would advise you to stay in your lane and stick to writing.

EDIT: Let's look at this from another angle. What is more compelling to watch, Yojimbo or Thor: The Dark World? Why?

[TheGildedGoose]

@TheGildedGoose Easily 7 Samurai. I could watch it or the Magnificent 7 (1960 version ofc) anytime, any place.

I guess I wasn't telling the entire truth when I said Kurosawa wasn't an action guy, but Seven Samurai is a compelling counterargument.

As much as I love the samurai Kurosawa movies, I think Ozu is a little bit more interesting outside of that genre. I feverishly recommend Tokyo Story to everyone I know just getting into international movies, maybe because I'm sadistic.

Hmm. Wife's asleep for another few hours. Dreams or Rashomon? I'm leaning towards Rashomon.

At least you're not one of the sick %$#% with whom I work that won't stop talking about the new Winnie the Pooh horror movie. That's not a matter of accounting, that's a measure of complete absence.

I haven't seen it because I value my eyes, but I do find it interesting from a theoretical standpoint. Radically different interpretations of old, newly copyright-free intellectual properties are an underexplored genre. The only other one I can really think of was Cthulhu (2007) which had some interesting ideas even if the execution left a lot to be desired.

[Dunadain]

I would advise you to stay in your lane and stick to writing.

Now THAT'S uncalled for. I thought we were cool?

Let's look at this from another angle. What is more compelling to watch, Yojimbo or Thor: The Dark World? Why?

Oh come on, that's just disingenuous, I think comparing old to new movies is usually a waste of time (in the broad concept of whether or not cinema has "improved," comparing two individual films is another matter), but it's always a waste of time if you are cherry picking you're examples.

Yes, Yojimbo which, despite all of its faults is one of the better films of its decade, is better than Thor: The Dark World, one of the worst films of its decade. Does this prove... anything? What's your point? Are you really going to tell me "old good, new bad"? If so, respectfully @DirkGently, you'll need to return the "Old man yells at cloud" badge, I've found someone more worthy of it.

[TheGildedGoose]

Now THAT'S uncalled for. I thought we were cool?

Wait, what? Are you Dirk's muppet account? Am I Dirk's muppet account? Is everyone Ertai*?

It was blunt, but Dirk is out of his element here, as he himself admitted. I'm not going to talk at length about literature because it's out of my depth. I think it's fair to suggest the same for him.

Oh come on, that's just disingenuous, I think comparing old to new movies is usually a waste of time (in the broad concept of whether or not cinema has "improved," comparing two individual films is another matter), but it's always a waste of time if you are cherry picking you're examples.

Yes, Yojimbo which, despite all of its faults is one of the better films of its decade, is better than Thor: The Dark World, one of the worst films of its decade. Does this prove... anything? What's your point? Are you really going to tell me "old good, new bad"? If so, respectfully @DirkGently, you'll need to return the "Old man yells at cloud" badge, I've found someone more worthy of it.

It's actually a genuine question, and my hope is that his answer will be insightful. It's not "old good, new bad" at all, honestly. Dirk's arguments suggest he will choose Thor: The Movie I Forgot About As Soon As the Credits Rolled, and I suspect this will pain him. As I said, sadist.

There are plenty of positive things about Thor from a purely technical perspective. Certainly, filmmaking techniques have advanced over the years, and filmmakers today have far more technical options than they did in the 60's. But the gadgets won't save you if you don't have something worth filming.

*This is an old WotC board joke.

[Dunadain]

Now THAT'S uncalled for. I thought we were cool?

Wait, what? Are you Dirk's muppet account? Am I Dirk's muppet account? Is everyone Ertai*?

It was the collective we, I was just calling you out.

It was blunt, but Dirk is out of his element here, as he himself admitted. I'm not going to talk at length about literature because it's out of my depth. I think it's fair to suggest the same for him.

Nah, miss me with that %$#%. Art is for everyone, regardless of their education or experience. I appreciate cinema experts, but if they start telling you that you aren't qualified to talk about movies, or that you should leave movies to the "experts" then I don't think they understand art well enough for their opinion to be any more valuable then mine.

[Dragonlover]

The classics of any genre are often %$#% to our eyes, because we've watched/read the stuff that's been influenced by them. Lord of the Rings was groundbreaking at the time, but wouldn't be published today. I wasn't particularly impressed by Dune, because I was already into 40k when I read it so there wasn't anything new conceptually.

Dragonlover

[TheGildedGoose]

Nah, miss me with that %$#%. Art is for everyone, regardless of their education or experience. I appreciate cinema experts, but if they start telling you that you aren't qualified to talk about movies, or that you should leave movies to the "experts" then I don't think they understand art well enough for their opinion to be any more valuable then mine.

That's not what I'm suggesting, either. I enjoy talking at length about movies with everyone from casual popcorn eaters to those with far more knowledge than me, a loser who spent his 20s developing a palate for film. He's certainly qualified to talk about his opinions, but if those opinions are half-baked and, frankly, ignorant, then I'm certainly allowed to call them out as such. Freeze peach goes in both directions.

It has to do with approach. You can't on one hand a) acknowledge you have modern sensibilities b) admit you are fairly ignorant of pre-1961 cinema and c) tacitly indicate your cinematic experience is limited by listing commercially successful mainstream American movies as among your favorites and then speak with the utmost confidence about your perspective on film. I will not abide.

EDIT: Hey, I'm at Mythic Been Thanked. I would like to thank all the bots I made to give me thanks.

[Dunadain]

Yeah, I'm gonna bounce, we are all going in circles now, haha.

[5colorsrainbow]

Separate but related note;

there has been the idea of a mtg/western set and that is not been some thing I have been into. I have been working on my own fantastical multiverse writing stuff since I was a tween (and for the record I was ripping off Tsubasa reservoir Chronicles, kingdom hearts and his dark materials before I got into magic lol) and a writing friend who knows about my distaste for the idea of a magic western set challenged me to create a world like that as part of a writing challenge to see if there would be something I might find to like and I ended up really digging what I found.

Partly inspired by a Tumblr post pointing out how the American old west, Meiji restoration and Victorian England we're all around the same time I kind of ended up with this interesting kitchen sink magic-tech "steampunk " Old west setting that's pretty diverse. Historically you had European and European descendent settlers (/colonizers), The native American tribes, Chinese immigrants who had come over two work on the Central pacific railroad, possible Japanese immigrants to tie in samurai (as westerns and samurai films been historically linked I felt it would be cool to have both) and cowpoke methodology and culture has its roots with Mexico and Latin American countries through Spain you end up with this really diverse melting pot of cultures that I want to respectfully try to draw from. As a Mexican American it makes me pretty excited as well since I can add some of my own cultural stuff into it.

Sorry if this came off a little long winded it's just something that I'm really excited about and there's not too many intersections of people who know what I'm referencing LOL

[Hermes_]

I happen to feel way, way more emotion when I see those cave paintings than when I see Hermes_'s AI-generated cards, which are, objectively speaking, more complex and interesting to look at. But they don't say anything*.

Excuse me, but I do think my Ai-generated art does say something and that is "He was very bored when he came up with the prompt"

Also, I'm just now reading The Handmaid's tale.

[DirkGently]

Alas, we are also capable of making worse and worse things.

I think mostly we're just less capable of filtering the good from the bad without more hindsight. Trust me, there are plenty of incredibly bad movies from the same era as Yojimbo. They just haven't stuck around. Watch some MST3K some time.

You talk too much.

nou

Are you making the claim that Yojimbo doesn't have a compelling narrative?

The narrative is kind of hard to mentally separate from the way its told. But I'm sure there's a version of Yojimbo that appeals more to me. Any story can be compelling if it's told well enough.

I sincerely doubt you knew this before my post. It likely would've informed your reading of it.

I knew that fistful was based on Yojimbo when you posted the picture, or I wouldn't have known what to search for. Believe me or not I guess, though it seems a silly thing to lie about. I will say that I didn't realize that Toho had a lawsuit over it until wikipedia told me about it. Litigious %$#%.

I would appreciate this argument if you named literally one movie at any point in it. Equating Netflix shows to 'cinema' is just... I mean...

Pan's Labyrinth, now piss off elitist.

I could talk about how Kurosawa was highly influenced by historical Japanese theater, but you seem uninterested in exploring how differing cultural backgrounds inform international directors, so here we are. Again, distinctly American.

I find it extremely telling that this is how you want to defend Yojimbo. Learning about what influenced the artist might be an interesting footnote but it does absolutely nothing to improve my viewing experience. Not with film, not with writing, not with anything. Art has to stand on its own. How about you tell me what you actually LIKE about it? What does this movie do for you that other movies don't? That goes for you, @TheAmericanSpirit, @Toshi, @Guardman, and anyone else who's claimed to like this tedious thing. Because if all you have is "well it's historically significant and film critics say its good", then I find that very telling indeed.

I would advise you to stay in your lane and stick to writing.

You've made a lot of movies, have you?

EDIT: Let's look at this from another angle. What is more compelling to watch, Yojimbo or Thor: The Dark World? Why?

Haven't seen the latter. I'm not a particular fan of Marvel movies though, if that's how you think you're going to epically destroy me. Honestly a very predictable move, goose. I'm disappointed.

It was blunt, but Dirk is out of his element here, as he himself admitted. I'm not going to talk at length about literature because it's out of my depth. I think it's fair to suggest the same for him.

I would say the same for any piece of literature, and have done. I think classic books typically hold up better than classic cinema for a variety of reasons, but at the end of the day, all the critical wankery is towards the service of creating art that can be enjoyed by the broader public, not just academics. Shakespeare wasn't writing for the critics, he was writing for the cheap seats. For that matter, Yojimbo was a popular movie when it released. We've just learned and changed a lot since then.

I didn't study literature so I could appreciate old books better. I studied literature so I could understand the techniques involved and how they've evolved, so that I can build upon them. All the literature classes in the universe can't make me enjoy Utopia. Sorry, Thomas Moore.

The classics of any genre are often %$#% to our eyes, because we've watched/read the stuff that's been influenced by them. Lord of the Rings was groundbreaking at the time, but wouldn't be published today. I wasn't particularly impressed by Dune, because I was already into 40k when I read it so there wasn't anything new conceptually.

Bingo.

It has to do with approach. You can't on one hand a) acknowledge you have modern sensibilities b) admit you are fairly ignorant of pre-1961 cinema and c) tacitly indicate your cinematic experience is limited by listing commercially successful mainstream American movies as among your favorites and then speak with the utmost confidence about your perspective on film. I will not abide.

The only defense you've made of this movie you supposedly love, thus far, is to be dismissive. My argument is invalid because I haven't studied film hard enough. I'm beginning to think the only thing you like about it is that it allows you to sneer at other people on the internet.

[Hermes_]

You'll need to have a freaking drink before this hits an iceberg. I'll pay.

[Hermes_]

so this one is supposedly done in the style of Rebecca Guay

SPOILER

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[DirkGently]

@Hermes_ as someone who just finished a cruise, those drink prices make me want to cry.

[Hermes_]

@Hermes_ as someone who just finished a cruise, those drink prices make me want to cry.

it's around 20 dollars USD in today's prices

edit: this one came out a lot better with no oddly misshapen face

SPOILER

Show

Hide

[DirkGently]

it's around 20 dollars USD in today's prices

I was mostly joking about the prices without inflation adjustment, but $20 for a glass of 80 year old brandy seems pretty amazing tbh, and most of the stuff is in the $5-10 range. Cheapest mixed drink on our boat was $16 (AUD, but still).

[TheGildedGoose]

The narrative is kind of hard to mentally separate from the way its told. But I'm sure there's a version of Yojimbo that appeals more to me. Any story can be compelling if it's told well enough.

Sure, that's fair. This is the subjective part. I like how the stylistic choices influence and enhance the narrative, personally.

Pan's Labyrinth, now piss off elitist.

You understand my point, right? There is a massive difference between long form television and a movie. Midnight Mass would never work as a movie because it's too dense and RoboCop would be horrifically boring as a show. They're completely different forms, and neither one is superior to the other.

Also, Pan's Labyrinth is obviously amazing, but it's still a very popular and commercially successful movie. I'm not suggesting that liking obscure movies is inherently superior to liking commercially successful and popular movies (my favorite movie literally just won Best Picture). Nor am I trying to gatekeep. It's entirely possible you're familiar with the entire European and Asian canon and just prefer commercial stuff. I just find it unlikely that anyone could be that way.

Art has to stand on its own.

Does it, now? I would argue that it can't. This is a deeper conversation I would like to have in good faith, actually. I have serious thoughts about this.

How about you tell me what you actually LIKE about it? What does this movie do for you that other movies don't?

Not Yojimbo specifically but Kurosawa generally: the editing and the cinematic storytelling. He had a knack for conveying both emotions and characterization through cuts and framing alone, something most commercial American products lack to this day.

As has been said, writing about music is like tapdancing about architecture, so it's better here to show, not tell. Movies are a primarily visual medium, right?



I know this is kinda lazy but i ain't making a YouTube video just to contribute to an argument on the Internet.

You've made a lot of movies, have you?

More than one, less than ten.

Haven't seen the latter. I'm not a particular fan of Marvel movies though, if that's how you think you're going to epically destroy me. Honestly a very predictable move, goose. I'm disappointed.

Replace it with literally any forgettable Hollywood crap that is slick and soulless. Which is more compelling? A snide deflection isn't an answer. The newer movies have more modern production techniques and tighter pacing (to appeal to audiences with short attention spans, naturally). So?

The only defense you've made of this movie you supposedly love, thus far, is to be dismissive. My argument is invalid because I haven't studied film hard enough. I'm beginning to think the only thing you like about it is that it allows you to sneer at other people on the internet.

I think it's one of Kurosawa's middling works, honestly. To be clear, you started this here after I made a couple of dumb jokes. Don't post your opinions if you don't want them challenged.

[DirkGently]

You understand my point, right? There is a massive difference between long form television and a movie. Midnight Mass would never work as a movie because it's too dense and RoboCop would be horrifically boring as a show. They're completely different forms, and neither one is superior to the other.

Sure, but they're presumably both influenced by their local culture in similar ways. Ofc globalization has made modern pieces of art likely easier to understand outside of their local culture - which contributes to something like Pan's Labyrinth, and modern Netflix series, being quite accessible.

Also, Pan's Labyrinth is obviously amazing, but it's still a very popular and commercially successful movie. I'm not suggesting that liking obscure movies is inherently superior to liking commercially successful and popular movies (my favorite movie literally just won Best Picture). Nor am I trying to gatekeep. It's entirely possible you're familiar with the entire European and Asian canon and just prefer commercial stuff. I just find it unlikely that anyone could be that way.

I'm not going to pretend I've watched tons of foreign movies because I haven't. I haven't deliberately sought to educate myself on film because I'm happily a layman (I tell a small lie - I did make a project of watching all of studio Ghibli films during the pandemic, as detailed in this very thread). My point with the Netflix examples was that, at least for modern filmmaking, non-American sensibilities are not detrimental to me - at least I don't think they are. I think the bulk of my issues with a movie like Yojimbo are primarily to do with the sensibilities of its time, not its location.

Art has to stand on its own.

Does it, now? I would argue that it can't. This is a deeper conversation I would like to have in good faith, actually. I have serious thoughts about this.

Obviously it's a bit of an oversimplification - a book isn't much good without first the ability to read it. My enjoyment of any piece of art will be massively dictated by my own cultural context, and my context is modern. If I wanted to make a study of it, I could try to understand the cultural context for the audience of Yojimbo and gain an understanding of why it was an effective film for its time. And that might even be interesting (to someone else). It might make me go "hmm, yes, I can now fully understand why this method was so effective at conveying yadda yadda yadda."

But I'll tell you what it won't do - it won't change my emotional engagement with the film. I want a movie that can make me cry, laugh, cheer. There's an arms race between art and the consumer - artists, learning from their progenitors, add and improve techniques to create a stronger reaction, and consumers becoming used to, and desensitized to, those techniques and needing something that innovates further. In 1961 I'm sure Yojimbo was an emotional thrill ride, but in 2023 it's a snore. You're putting me on a merry-go-round after I've been on the roller coaster - many roller coasters - and you're pointing out how intricately carved all the horses are to convince me I'm having fun.

Not Yojimbo specifically but Kurosawa generally: the editing and the cinematic storytelling. He had a knack for conveying both emotions and characterization through cuts and framing alone, something most commercial American products lack to this day.

Those are more of a "how" and I'm looking for more of a "what". Okay, he conveys emotions in a way you like - which emotions, at what points? Which characters/characterizations?

To give some examples from GBU - I really like the way the intensity of the music builds in tandem with the speed of the camera pans as Tuco searches the graveyard, because I think it's really effective at building excitement and tension - emotions which are appropriate for that part of the story. The increasing speed of cuts and closeness of the camera in the final shootout has a similar effect. Ofc the music in general just slaps - I'm sure I could drill down into the why on that, but I think it's pretty self-evident. There's too much great dialogue to choose from - the conversation where Blondie and Tuco haggle over money is both clever and also does a great job of conveying their personalities. I like the setting - most people don't realize the Civil War extended as far as the American West, so it's unique and interesting, and provides lots of great scenery that also conveys the inhospitability of the world of the characters, and the larger forces outside their control. At the end of the day, it's the complex and likeable characters in a compelling story that get me invested and give me an emotional reaction. You can, and should, use filmmaking techniques to help achieve those ends, and I'm sure Leone used many techniques I didn't notice. But the important thing to me isn't HOW I'm made to engage emotionally, it's THAT I'm able to engage emotionally. Whether that's writing, acting, editing, composition, sound, set dressing, costumes, or all of the above.

Yojimbo, despite whatever god-tier techniques were used, didn't engage me emotionally. I didn't really connect with the main character (he's way less of an anti-hero than Eastwood, and less interesting for it imo), and even less so for everyone else. I wasn't invested in the plot because I didn't really care about the town itself - it seems to be 99% thugs and 1% weird old men. The staging, writing, and acting felt artificial and took me out of it too - most egregiously during the fight scenes. At the end of the day, that lack of emotional engagement is why I didn't like it.

More than one, less than ten.

Fair enough - unrelated to this conversation, I'm curious in what capacity?

Replace it with literally any forgettable Hollywood crap that is slick and soulless. Which is more compelling? A snide deflection isn't an answer. The newer movies have more modern production techniques and tighter pacing (to appeal to audiences with short attention spans, naturally). So?

While I'm no fanboy for Marvel, I do find it very trite when snobs trot it out as a condemnation of every movie made in the past 30 years. It's the same boomer energy employed when people scoff at modern music because they don't like Justin Bieber or whatever. If you don't like the most mainstream possible stuff, then maybe try digging around a bit instead of just whinging? There is a depth of film and music being produced today that you couldn't possibly absorb it all without some sort of serious time dilation.

For practical purposes, I'd say Yojimbo and...let's go with Quantumania (it was the only thing playing and we had nothing better to do at 7PM in Cairns, okay?) are basically equal. I felt nothing for either of their runtime. I was slightly less bored during Quantumania, but for practical purposes neither had any effect on me and memory of both is quickly fading. I think we've already established I didn't enjoy Yojimbo, so I'm not sure what your point is.

I think it's one of Kurosawa's middling works, honestly. To be clear, you started this here after I made a couple of dumb jokes. Don't post your opinions if you don't want them challenged.

Personally I would argue that you started it here by dissing the dollar's trilogy - but I certainly don't mind you challenging my ideas. Arguing on the internet is one of my favorite things, and I am genuinely interested in drilling down to understand what people see in a movie like Yojimbo.

[TheGildedGoose]

I'm not going to pretend I've watched tons of foreign movies because I haven't. I haven't deliberately sought to educate myself on film because I'm happily a layman (I tell a small lie - I did make a project of watching all of studio Ghibli films during the pandemic, as detailed in this very thread). My point with the Netflix examples was that, at least for modern filmmaking, non-American sensibilities are not detrimental to me - at least I don't think they are. I think the bulk of my issues with a movie like Yojimbo are primarily to do with the sensibilities of its time, not its location.

This is what I was getting at. I think Gen Xers and those younger than them are so immersed in cinematic language because of being raised with TV and movies that we understand it intuitively rather than being forced to learn it actively. I had to unlearn my immature understanding of it to relearn it in a more intricate and intentional way. It's not an insult to suggest that someone doesn't understand cinematic language, particularly if they're not film students and/or Letterboxd losers. Understanding how and why different techniques, from editing to framing and blocking to acting to sound design, affect and inform things such as plot, characterization, tone, and emotion isn't exactly easy. Hell, I'm still not great at it. It took me years to really appreciate Michelangelo Antonioni, Andrei Tarkovsky, and Bela Tarr, and I'm still not sold on Bollywood as a whole. Why are you randomly bursting into song and dance? Did everyone rehearse this in advance? Why are we suddenly breaking the fourth wall? Why are the movies four hours long?

I think it's a blind spot for most people. There's been a homogenization of cinematic language because of America's cultural hegemony as you allude to with globalization, and it's colored your modern sensibilities so much that I think it's easy to dismiss cultural quirks as artifacts of a bygone era because of it. They're a feature, not a bug.

Obviously it's a bit of an oversimplification - a book isn't much good without first the ability to read it. My enjoyment of any piece of art will be massively dictated by my own cultural context, and my context is modern. If I wanted to make a study of it, I could try to understand the cultural context for the audience of Yojimbo and gain an understanding of why it was an effective film for its time. And that might even be interesting (to someone else). It might make me go "hmm, yes, I can now fully understand why this method was so effective at conveying yadda yadda yadda."

But I'll tell you what it won't do - it won't change my emotional engagement with the film. I want a movie that can make me cry, laugh, cheer. There's an arms race between art and the consumer - artists, learning from their progenitors, add and improve techniques to create a stronger reaction, and consumers becoming used to, and desensitized to, those techniques and needing something that innovates further. In 1961 I'm sure Yojimbo was an emotional thrill ride, but in 2023 it's a snore. You're putting me on a merry-go-round after I've been on the roller coaster - many roller coasters - and you're pointing out how intricately carved all the horses are to convince me I'm having fun.

Let's take Kurosawa and traditional Japanese theater as an example.

It's easy to dismiss some of the parts of his movies because they seem, well, stilted or lazy to both foreign and modern audiences, but most of those are very intentional stylistic choices inspired by the culture in which he lived to evoke very specific things. Personally, understanding why those choices were made reframed those elements and changed how I felt about them. The cartoonish and bizarre makeup in Ran was offputting until I realized it was inspired by Noh. For a Western analogy, think of the Greek chorus of singers in Little Shop of Horrors, or Sam Elliott's character in The Big Lebowski. Once I realized this, instead of finding it comical, I found the contrast between the serious, somber plot and the metacommentary heightened the overall experience.

Of course, you're free to your opinion. As @TheAmericanSpirit said, there's no accounting for taste. The problem I have is the expression of opinion as objective fact, particularly when you're missing quite a lot of context.

Okay, he conveys emotions in a way you like - which emotions, at what points? Which characters/characterizations?

I mean, I ain't got time for that. Presenting you with examples out of context for movies you haven't and will likely never see via text doesn't seem like a very effective method of explaining cinematic language. The Every Frame a Painting Video is a pretty solid general introduction.

Fair enough - unrelated to this conversation, I'm curious in what capacity?

Pretty much everything behind the camera. I wrote, directed, and edited them. Granted, it's not like they were ever commercial products, but still, they were produced. It's been over a decade since I've done anything and while I've had lots of ideas and have seriously progressed my command of language, I just don't have the time to devote to a hobby like that.

I'm pretty obsessed with recontextualization and conceptual bricolage. By invoking another work of art you can easily communicate big ideas pretty efficiently if they're used in contrast to their original meaning. Think of it as a Matryoshka doll of nested information.

While I'm no fanboy for Marvel, I do find it very trite when snobs trot it out as a condemnation of every movie made in the past 30 years. It's the same boomer energy employed when people scoff at modern music because they don't like Justin Bieber or whatever. If you don't like the most mainstream possible stuff, then maybe try digging around a bit instead of just whinging? There is a depth of film and music being produced today that you couldn't possibly absorb it all without some sort of serious time dilation.

This is, uh, not only a gross oversimplification but also a straw man. Unless you're generalizing (in which case it's completely irrelevant to this conversation) I never made this claim.

For practical purposes, I'd say Yojimbo and...let's go with Quantumania (it was the only thing playing and we had nothing better to do at 7PM in Cairns, okay?) are basically equal. I felt nothing for either of their runtime. I was slightly less bored during Quantumania, but for practical purposes neither had any effect on me and memory of both is quickly fading. I think we've already established I didn't enjoy Yojimbo, so I'm not sure what your point is.

Yojimbo is about the destructive nature of capitalism in post-war Japan and the conflict between tradition and progression. Quantumania is about making money for Disney.

Personally I would argue that you started it here by dissing the dollar's trilogy - but I certainly don't mind you challenging my ideas. Arguing on the internet is one of my favorite things, and I am genuinely interested in drilling down to understand what people see in a movie like Yojimbo.

You don't say.

As I said, Yojimbo is okay, but Throne of Blood, like the play it's based on, is a damned masterpiece. I would very much like to discuss that one instead.

[DirkGently]

This is what I was getting at. I think Gen Xers and those younger than them are so immersed in cinematic language because of being raised with TV and movies that we understand it intuitively rather than being forced to learn it actively. I had to unlearn my immature understanding of it to relearn it in a more intricate and intentional way. It's not an insult to suggest that someone doesn't understand cinematic language, particularly if they're not film students and/or Letterboxd losers. Understanding how and why different techniques, from editing to framing and blocking to acting to sound design, affect and inform things such as plot, characterization, tone, and emotion isn't exactly easy. Hell, I'm still not great at it. It took me years to really appreciate Michelangelo Antonioni, Andrei Tarkovsky, and Bela Tarr, and I'm still not sold on Bollywood as a whole. Why are you randomly bursting into song and dance? Did everyone rehearse this in advance? Why are we suddenly breaking the fourth wall? Why are the movies four hours long?

I think it's a blind spot for most people. There's been a homogenization of cinematic language because of America's cultural hegemony as you allude to with globalization, and it's colored your modern sensibilities so much that I think it's easy to dismiss cultural quirks as artifacts of a bygone era because of it. They're a feature, not a bug.

I don't disagree with any of that. If I had the itch to direct a movie I imagine I'd have a %$#% of a lot of learning to do, to achieve the language that I absorb unthinkingly when watching. And I'm not saying that's not a worthwhile pursuit, just as I wouldn't say understanding the value of classic literature isn't a worthwhile pursuit. Especially if your goal is to use that knowledge to create something that builds upon it. But, as with me struggling through Utopia, all the studying in the world can't make me actually emotionally connect with something like Yojimbo.

Let's take Kurosawa and traditional Japanese theater as an example.

It's easy to dismiss some of the parts of his movies because they seem, well, stilted or lazy to both foreign and modern audiences, but most of those are very intentional stylistic choices inspired by the culture in which he lived to evoke very specific things. Personally, understanding why those choices were made reframed those elements and changed how I felt about them. The cartoonish and bizarre makeup in Ran was offputting until I realized it was inspired by Noh. For a Western analogy, think of the Greek chorus of singers in Little Shop of Horrors, or Sam Elliott's character in The Big Lebowski. Once I realized this, instead of finding it comical, I found the contrast between the serious, somber plot and the metacommentary heightened the overall experience.

That's all very interesting but it does not change my emotional response to the story one iota.

The problem I have is the expression of opinion as objective fact, particularly when you're missing quite a lot of context.

Looking back over my previous posts, all of them are pretty thoroughly drenched in "imos". But I don't really think that should even be necessary when talking about evaluations of quality tbh. If I say "Yojimbo is boring" is that not clearly a description of my subjective personal opinion? Film critics don't bother to caveat every judgment with an "imo" because it's tedious to read, and unnecessary. Everyone reading understands that it's implied.

I mean, I ain't got time for that. Presenting you with examples out of context for movies you haven't and will likely never see via text doesn't seem like a very effective method of explaining cinematic language. The Every Frame a Painting Video is a pretty solid general introduction.

I already watched it and it said basically what I expected. He's got great techniques etc etc. Cool, now tell me what those techniques actually DID for you, because I watched the same movie and got nothing.

I had no problem pulling out a reasonable list of examples from GBU, and I could do the same for plenty of movies that I've enjoyed over the years. Maybe not on the level of specific editing techniques, but I could at least remember liking characters, plot beats, etc. Seems like it'd take a fraction of the time we've already spent on this learned discussion/slap fight.

Pretty much everything behind the camera. I wrote, directed, and edited them. Granted, it's not like they were ever commercial products, but still, they were produced. It's been over a decade since I've done anything and while I've had lots of ideas and have seriously progressed my command of language, I just don't have the time to devote to a hobby like that.

I'm pretty obsessed with recontextualization and conceptual bricolage. By invoking another work of art you can easily communicate big ideas pretty efficiently if they're used in contrast to their original meaning. Think of it as a Matryoshka doll of nested information.

Reasonably rad. Did you go through film school or self taught?

This is, uh, not only a gross oversimplification but also a straw man. Unless you're generalizing (in which case it's completely irrelevant to this conversation) I never made this claim.

Mostly to explain why I find your gotcha question of "what's better, a classic you already said you disliked, versus a MARVEL MOVIE " to be kinda predictable and eyeroll inducing. Though Thor: the Dark World in particular is a fairly random selection, definitely not one that's stuck in the cultural conscious.

Yojimbo is about the destructive nature of capitalism in post-war Japan and the conflict between tradition and progression. Quantumania is about making money for Disney.

I am firmly of the belief that the story itself is the tentpole around which everything else relies. You can have the richest themes in the universe but if the story can't stand on its own I do not care.

But if I was to play devil's/marvel's (but I repeat myself ) advocate, I think you could probably squeeze some themes out of Quantumania, even if it's trite. The significance of small things. Learning to accept the inevitable chaos of life. The value of fighting seemingly unwinnable fights. Something something family.

You don't say.

I mean, you came out swinging with "Don't post your opinions if you don't want them challenged." If you knew I loved having my opinions challenged then why did you bother saying that as though it was an own?

As I said, Yojimbo is okay, but Throne of Blood, like the play it's based on, is a damned masterpiece. I would very much like to discuss that one instead.

Well then you should have said that before I wasted 110 minutes and $3.50 of my hard-earned cash on Yojimbo thanks to y'all talking it up. Besides, what if I like Throne of Blood? Then we'd have nothing to talk about

I will say I'm sad that @TheAmericanSpirit, @Toshi, and @Guardman aren't chiming in more. While it's interesting to get the perspective of someone who studies film, I'm a lot more curious about the perspectives of fellow laymen who like the film, because that's a lot more confusing to me.

[TheAmericanSpirit]

@DirkGently I plan to give you the thorough examination of my enjoyment, fret not. It has been like 7-8 years since I've seen it last and I inhale a lot of smoke, so I'm waiting til the weekend to snag it from the library and refresh my memory. Right now all I can conjure up is a vague good feeling, a memory of satisfaction, and some specific shots, but those a whole testimony do not make. (Gonna see if they have throne of blood and tokyo story too)

Anyone into Italian movies? Il Caimano was very good, albeit a little confusing at times.

Also, am I still a layman if I have a Media Production degree? I worked on a %$#% ton of short films. I even won the local equivalent of a Razzie
once because my movie was just so notoriously bad

[DirkGently]

@DirkGently I plan to give you the thorough examination of my enjoyment, fret not. It has been like 7-8 years since I've seen it last and I inhale a lot of smoke, so I'm waiting til the weekend to snag it from the library and refresh my memory. Right now all I can conjure up is a vague good feeling, a memory of satisfaction, and some specific shots, but those a whole testimony do not make. (Gonna see if they have throne of blood and tokyo story too)

Anyone into Italian movies? Il Caimano was very good, albeit a little confusing at times.

Also, am I still a layman if I have a Media Production degree? I worked on a %$#% ton of short films. I even won the local equivalent of a Razzie
once because my movie was just so notoriously bad

lmao %$#%$#% it I'm the least educated person here and I hate it. Def curious what this movie of yours was. You aren't Neil Breen, are you? xD

I do appreciate and am curious to hear what you've got on Yojimbo.

I'm skittish about spending a lot of money renting stuff off amazon (hence my whinging about 3 fiddy on Yojimbo) but I'm reasonably down to check stuff out if it's been YouTube'd (looks like "M" is on there, which is apparently also a classic. And I vaguely remember my dad showing me Peter Lorre movies when I was a kid. So I might check that out. Other suggestions considered). Then if I decide I hate it I can nope out without feeling like I'm pissing money down the drain. Just found out we need to replace our transmission...so I'm feeling even more tight-fisted than usual =/

edit: looks like Playtime is on there as well, I think I've heard good things about that one too?

[TheAmericanSpirit]

@DirkGently I am not Neil Breen, no sir. That guy's a legend. Nah, my film was about the progression from inaminate to consciousness to self-awareness to spiritual awakening to nihilism and back to inanimate, as shown through the perspective of a Russet potato. Someday I will remake it and I'll cut the 2 minute flight sequence when the spud imagines life as a bird.

[pokken]

hence my whinging about 3 fiddy on Yojimbo)

I might be wrong but it looks like yojimbo is on the archive