Ghired, Conclave Exile - Triple Dipping Naya Lards

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Post by Rumpy5897 » 2 years ago

Technically everything Avenger-related gets quadrupled, so you had a gigantic swarm of 4/5s ;) I'm surprised that you somehow had both of your token doublers live, yet everything else died. Creature wipes to blame?

I got to walk Ghired recently, and I scooped out turn six after a Kalonian Hydra untapped to see a Finale of Devastation fetch Rionya, with a throwaway Swords to up the copy count. Textbook case of the stars aligning. I've been encouraging the group to up its interaction a bit, so hopefully I'll get challenged more often as I try to get the copy train going. I've got Subjugator Angel earmarked as the Harmonic Prodigy cut.
 
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Post by yeti1069 » 2 years ago

Saw a couple of board wipes and Ghired are a removal. I also had 4 of my lands blown up to a Strip Mine and then Ruination, but had kept a hand with plenty of ramp so I was still in the game.

The doublers came down the turn before and I think removal got directed at creatures instead of enchantments if it was available.

You're right, Avengers would have made the plants HUGE, but Garyx4 and swinging 4x Avengers made the math irrelevant.

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Post by Rumpy5897 » 2 years ago

MID doesn't bring a lot of Ghired considerations with it, which is unexpected given the heavy Timminess of its green.
  • Outland Liberator is an interesting piece of artifact/enchantment hate on the back, and still a Qasali Pridemage on the front. White's Cathar Commando lacks the on-swing potential, but has flash to compensate. We care little about either, as we've got Duergar Hedge-Mage.
  • Saryth, the Viper's Fang is a cool package - deathtouch is awesome with trample, and hexproof is awesome with trying to copy stuff. Plus there's the untap trick just in case. All around neat, a solid include consideration. I'm not fully sold though. This doesn't seem wildly superior when A/B'd with Odric. Probably merits some test games at least.
  • Stalwart Pathlighter is like a Frontline Medic that doesn't have to swing to do its thing. Three mana for mass indestructibility on attack is not the worst deal, but Dolmen Gate accomplishes the primary purpose without gross main two wiping for one mana less (and doable off Sol Rings too!).
  • Unnatural Growth taps into five mana creature oomph doubling, something that has existed in the past and hasn't made its way in. True Conviction remains the premier representative of the category for the deck, shall it choose to make use of it.
  • Vanquish the Horde immediately becomes one of the format's best wipes, something that white honestly deserves to have. However, this deck is the one that needs to be wiped, not the one likely to be doing the wiping. That, and Blasphemous Act offers the cool Vigor trick.
Harmonic Prodigy still slated to go in over Subjugator Angel eventually. Also looking at the 7+ mana goodstuff legendary angels with a bit of concern, as they do cost a lot to get out. Maybe I could use those slots for the redirection spells instead? Should I downsize the high variance beatstick set? A bunch of questions, not a lot of answers.
 
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Post by Andovar » 2 years ago

Hello how are you? I'm new in the forum. I've been playing ghired for months and I'm trying new cards. I really liked everything you have shared. but I couldn't get to see the current list of cards they are using. I hope to make some time to share my decklist with you and have a feedback on what you think about it. at the table I play there is usually a lot of removal and it is played hard, so ghired has not had much luck

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Post by Andovar » 2 years ago

Decklist
Approximate Total Cost:

Hi, again posting. I was able to upload the list of cards better than I expected, the editor is very intuitive, I loved it.
What do you think about this decklist? feel free to comment on what you would put out and what you would put on.

Thank you so much

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Post by yeti1069 » 2 years ago

Storm of Souls is something I'm considering. Coming back as 1/1s isn't great, but a lot of our fat has some utility even if the body shrinks, and a mass reanimate spell, even with caveats, in white is a pretty big deal.

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Post by Rumpy5897 » 2 years ago

VOW Changes


Sorry for not responding with thoughts on the deck. I don't have many. It's a pile of Naya goodstuff with a bit of Rhino plan support. Run draw, don't run rocks.

Right, on to the swaps.

VOW Changes
Approximate Total Cost:

Helm of the Host has been earmarked as the copier to go in the event of a new one being printed. Mirage Phalanx is really not that great - it costs six mana, it's inflexible in its targeting, Kiki and Rionya laugh at it. But it gets the job done - it comes out of nowhere on six mana and copies the beef. So in it goes. Also executing the planned Harmonic Prodigy over Subjugator Angel swap. It's not that Subjugator is bad, but it's quite narrow in terms of timing. It sometimes snatches victory from the jaws of defeat, but maybe in cases like that having cheap access to double Ghired populate will help not have the jaws appear in the first place. Prodigy is just an all around more useful card to have in the list, I feel. The change was set in stone once I played Ghired in paper, drew Subjugator, and was surprised it's still in there.

Angel of Destiny is leading the chopping block of beatsticks. Attack triggers interact very sadly with a number of the copiers, and the Phalanx now kills off the token before the end step is even reached. Plus somehow it's just not as... fun as the other ones. If the stars align and people get killed out of nowhere, it's not quite as exhilarating as nonsensically huge Hydras or what else. I'm also a bit doubtful of the fat goodstuff angels, and the Beast Within variant removal. Could we go cheaper with this stuff? Is this a good idea?

I didn't even take notes on other VOW stuff, there was nothing apart from the Phalanx. Storm of Souls is a distant second, maybe in an ETB'y build or something. It's nice that they finished the slowlands, we need mana base redundancy.
 
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Post by yeti1069 » 2 years ago

By Invitation Only looks half-decent since Ghired tends to be wider than other decks at the table.
Cemetery Prowler looks pretty cool. It's grave hate and psuedo-ramp, on a solid body for 3 mana, and making copies of it, while not super-impressive stat-wise, can really help power out bigger threats.

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Post by GloomyGryphon93 » 2 years ago

A few new cards in Kamigaya I am excited for for this deck: new Kiki-Jiki saga that ramps too, white dragon when copied can get a ton of cards, including the red dragon which can get a ton of mana when copied, green dragon isn't bad either. Mirror box lets you copy ghired, which can lead to things going crazy.

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Post by Rumpy5897 » 2 years ago

NEO doesn't have anything too relevant.
  • Akki Battle Squad could technically do some very inefficient cheese with a modified Ghired, but not worth the hassle. This deck doesn't really modify Ghired.
  • Boseiju, Who Endures is stupid, but I tend to value my typed land count very highly. Probably worth a slot if you're running a lot of basics.
  • Fable of the Mirror-Breaker is a middling copier as it takes forever to wind up. It'd have to come out a while ahead of Ghired, and then have the beatstick come in afterward. However, drawing it later would be terrible. Oh, and also the creature this flips into comes in from exile, so it's summoning sick. Pass.
  • Kami of Celebration is another what-if card for a modified deck, as it's a faux-Ohran Frostfang if there are enough bodies to support it. Not for us, but a nice card to see, with some parallels to one of the deck's favourites.
None of the dragons do anything comparable in power to existing beatsticks when copied. The deck ran, and removed, Helm of the Host. It's not going to run the less relevant half of Helm and wait for a copier to fall into its lap to replicate a card it could just run instead.
 
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Post by Naota481 » 2 years ago

Dollhouse of Horrors Is this good?

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Post by yeti1069 » 2 years ago

Image

What do you think of this guy? Copies stuff, and the copies turn into card draw. A little on the slow side at 4 mana, , and , but I feel like this could do some work. I always like seeing cards that fulfill multiple roles.

Also, how would you rate Return of the Wild Speaker against Rishkar's Expertise? Rishkar's has been good, and the free cast has been relevant many times (and offsets the cost difference with Return), but being an instant is pretty relevant, and having an alternate mode of Overrun is pretty powerful with all the 4/4 tramplers we have running around. For my part, I'm making the swap for now to see how I feel about it.
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Post by Rumpy5897 » 1 year ago

Jaxis is a pretty obvious shoe-in. The blitz mode is where it's at, as it comes out of nowhere and does a Heat Shimmer with bonus hand action. Creature copying, card draw, what's not to love? The sorcery limitation is a bit of a life sucker on the card, I guess they went for this valve to prevent copying stuff in other people's turns as blockers or making surprise doubled attackers. There may technically be situations where the discard is undesirable, but the deck is pretty good at drawing on the whole and this will likely out a weak copier. Plus the set is giving us a triome, and I'm gonna get the basics as I find them gorgeous. New Capenna is not quite Ravnica, but close enough? :P

I'm not really sharing your enthusiasm for this swap. The whole idea with Rishkar's Expertise is to pay six, draw a bunch, and ideally spit out a five-drop of some sort. That failing, still get some mana back by cheating something in. Meanwhile you're giving up that cost recoup to have instant speed. Ghired is hardly an instant speed deck, I'm never super happy about drawing Beast Withins, what in tarnation would you willingly hold five mana up for? The pump mode is probably more relevant for Rhino-centric builds.

The mention of Rishkar's actually reminded me of the goodstuff angels kicking around the list, and that it's probably a good idea to take them out. I actually own a Deflecting Swat now, so that should probably go in. Maybe I could do the unthinkable and trim the Beast Withins for like a Hull Breach or something? Stuff to think about.

Also Dollhouse of Horrors is terrible here :P
 
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Post by pokken » 1 year ago

I think it'd be pretty defensible to just run creatures with removal attached in this deck. more Thrashing Brontodon and less Beast Within. Just me though, I'm kinda over playing Swords to Plowshares and Beast Within in every deck especially if I'd usually rather have it be an on-gameplan card a high percentage of the time.

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Post by yeti1069 » 1 year ago

I like Rishkar's, but Return having an alt mode of Overrun looks very appealing

As for removal, I do run cavalier of dawn, and have tried the white primordial. I'm a fan of removal on creatures here that can be copied. Utility in general, so I've got Eternal Witness, and had been running Karmic Guide as well for a bit.


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Post by yeti1069 » 1 year ago

I think I want to drop some of the fatties high on the curve and slot in some 1-3 mana utility creatures that are valuable to copy. Had two games tonight with Chord of Calling in hand, and needed to remove a permanent (creature, artifact, or enchantment) but only could Chord for 2 and 3, respectively. In the second game (3) I already had the Duergar in play. Heck, even a Fog Frog might be worth it to survive crack backs.

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Post by Rumpy5897 » 1 year ago

If you want to copy Reclamation Sages then I guess Dollhouse graduates from terrible to middling. You've historically expressed interest in this sort of stuff, as evidenced by your mention of Storm of Souls. Meanwhile my deck's main interest remains copying beef that ends the game quickly once multiplied. I've started streamlining stuff around it, and this is why Avacyn and Gisela are in danger. They're impactful when they hit, but they cost a lot and don't actually help me get a copied beatstick online beyond helping Ghired not die in combat.

Notice I've got a small toolbox of various utility creatures which are the most efficient at what they do. However, I don't regret reworking my ramp the way I did, as it works better at all stages of the game. I don't think I'll take this to an extreme where I take out Eternal Witness for a Regrowth, but at the same time there's not really much in the way of utility creatures I wish I was running. It's actually kind of funny, I just went to look at Cavalier of Dawn's cut update and there I am considering offing the Beast Withins. Think I should re-read the entirety of the thread before I make any sweeping decisions, but some thinning is likely. I can envision a reality where the only cards at 5 mana or more are beef and copiers... plus Ohran Frostfang.

A semi-recent game is a good illustration of the power of the current beef. I drew a clunker hand - Angel of Destiny and Splinter Twin. Yuck! I begrudgingly Twinned the Angel up, went through the motions, and realised I killed the biggest threat turn five and finished the rest of the table turn six. That was peak attack trigger clumsiness, yet it still worked out to that extent. As such, things are already rather operational. But what if they could be even better?

The attack trigger beef is just too good. The best non-attack-trigger options not in the list already are Archangel of Thune and Terror of the Peaks, and they're both inferior to existing includes (in the case of the Archangel, that's even backed up on a cool graph; Terror only gets properly stupid if Rionya is around and gets her synergies going). So what if we go the other way and try to support attack triggers as much as possible? The printing of Jaxis provides another option for an attack trigger friendly copier, and there are actually a few options I'm not running already, which I ignored due to their tribal nature. Molten Echoes is telegraphed and a terrible topdeck, but Kindred Charge works just fine and it's perfectly okay to spend six mana on a copy. Plus, if things go really south, it could even be used to help sauce up a Rhino plan game :P

A counter-argument to this comes from a game which I played outside my group, and I Twinned up Ewit and kept bombing opposing creatures with Path to Exile. Thing is, a lot of cards can have game states where they do things. Early on in the life of Daxos, I had a very memorable game that was won off the back of Debtors' Knell and Attrition. Neither of those cards is in the list now, and the deck is stronger and more consistent.

I might be wrong here. Let me know if I missed any obvious badass beef or utility creatures.

In unrelated matters, I've been playing a bit with the spoilers and damn is that blitz commander stupid, that mechanic is crazy in a graveyard deck that's looking to sac its stuff anyway. Also I've been really liking having a triome in Perry, can't wait to slot it in here.
 
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Post by yeti1069 » 1 year ago

You're not wrong, and ultimately, I'd much rather be making big fatties then copying them to beat face, but in the most consistent group I've played with since the start of the pandemic (less so recently), interaction is plentiful, and even the Ghired game plan at full bore isn't necessarily the biggest, most aggressive deck at the table.

In the two most recent games, we were playing in a 3-person pod, where one guy was playing precons (first Obuun, Mul Daya Ancestor then Wyleth, Soul of Steel) and I got stomped both games. Admittedly, they were piloted by one of the best players I've ever played against, and he was focus-firing me in both games, but it was still discouraging to get absolutely wrecked by a precon two games in a row. Not having something to do with Chord for X=1, 2, or 3 of any significance just made it even worse.



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Post by Rumpy5897 » 1 year ago

The Great Slimming II, feat. SNC


I can go back and reread the thread, see the gradual streamlining of the deck's strategy and reacquaint myself with what is important. I can get reminded of various cool cards that I should have given a chance. I can craft a swap list to try to resolve the constant attack trigger tension using some creative tribal-minded cards. Or I can log in once the SNC precons drop, see a sea of ridiculous crap, and have all my problems solved for me.


I guess the initial summary is a little harsh, as there are a number of non-SNC cards here, but a lot of the key changes that should help the deck feel less clunky are based on what the new set brought. The general idea is to focus on the Ghired-beef-copy-BAM plan, severely limiting the presence of 5+MV cards that are not beatsticks or copiers. The only utility pieces above 4 mana left in the list are Ohran Frostfang, a pet card and a crazy good draw engine, and Rishkar's Expertise which then refunds a lot of its sunk cost. Draw is important, and it's a good way to find missing pieces if the plan is not coming together.

The swap notes:
  • Doubling Season is a token doubler, which are historically good in the deck, but it also has the dreaded cost of 5, which makes it sequence rather poorly. Determined Iteration is not quite a proper doubler, but it does make an extra copy of an existing token prior to swinging. This works well with attack trigger beef, and since we can't not rely on them, we may as well lean into it. This should carry a lot of the original benefit at a fraction of the mana investment.
    • It should be formally noted that Kalonian Hydra fared better with Doubling Season than it will fare with Determined Iteration. However, taking out the table in two swings rather than one is still pretty good, and there's also the factor of more likely sequencing clunk due to an incomplete picture in the Doubling Season scenario.
  • Beast Within and Generous Gift are versatile, but inefficient. This is not a control deck, it's not going to hold up three mana to maybe pop someone's thing. Hull Breach is cheap and good value, plus there are a few other ways to deal with creatures. Hopefully it will suffice. This is the swap I'm least convinced by.
  • Avacyn and Gisela are both crazy powerful. They come down and have a game-warping effect, making decisions revolve around them until they get handled. However, they don't actually help with the beef copying plan. They function as pieces that help Ghired and his token buddies survive until things properly click into place. Thing is, this doesn't need to cost this much mana to accomplish.
  • The slots freed up above go to various efficient protective shenanigans. Saryth costs four mana rather than 7-8, and granting attackers deathtouch is plenty of combat protection if my experience with Ohran Frostfang has taught me anything. Plus Saryth comes with an extra hexproof shield on untapped creatures, letting us copy in peace. Spending four mana on this effect is not really worth it in a vacuum, as evidenced by my lack of enthusiasm for Shalai, but the combo is perfectly fine.
    • Oh, and also on the off chance there's a land aura, Saryth can ramp a little too. Overgrowth is starting to look like a tempting include, despite the 3MV...
  • The other protective stuff is reactive. Deflecting Swat has been recommended in the thread multiple times, and it helps cover the deck's weakest moment of trying to apply a copier to a piece of beef. That's a super juicy 2-for-1 opportunity that can completely derail the proceedings, so it's common to see interaction at that point. Swat stuffs that, for no mana required. Plus maybe sometimes we get to steal a spell from someone. Tibalt's Trickery is an out-of-pie weirdo that gives us game against various nonsense we should not have game against. Stuff spot removal, stuff a wipe, stuff a counterspell, a game-ending haymaker, heck, even Constant Mists! Smart use should not worry too much about the resulting flip.
    • The Trickery spot was one of the more contested ones. Grand Crescendo got spoiled at the eleventh hour and outed Boros Charm as the most likely reactive candidate. Family's Favor was in the running as a way to repeatedly shield Ghired, maybe even catch an errant draw here and there, but I realised nobody's giving Ghired errant draws in the deck's current form and Nahiri's Machinations does the whole "shield Ghired" thing better. So Crescendo and Machinations are on the bench in case Trickery fails to live up to its promise, or proportions need to be rejiggered.
  • The copier suite gets rejiggered to work well with attack trigger beef. Splinter Twin and Flamerush Rider don't. Cabaretti Confluence and Jaxis do. The Confluence in particular is an absolutely insane card in the shell here, and I expect it to win on the spot when combined with most of the fat in the deck. What were they thinking?!
  • Jetmir's Garden is a triome, and triomes are good. Keeping my tap land quota in check and outing Path of Ancestry.
I considered Hunter's Insight but decided against it for now. The current weakest draw options (Harmonize, Greater Good) can technically get cast before Ghired. In fact I remember a number of weird early stall Harmonize saves from various goldfishing through the years. I considered replacing Mirage Phalanx with Kindred Charge, but decided that the repeatability is preferable to an occasional Rhino barrage.

I'm hopeful this goes a way toward resolving the deck's various clunk issues. I can't get around the modularity, but I can streamline whatever can be streamlined to make mana room for what really matters. This is the fattest update a deck of mine has seen after achieving primer status, so you'd hope it does something!
 
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Post by yeti1069 » 1 year ago

Has Mirage Phalanx been good for you?

I'll have to weigh whether I can give up Flamerush Rider. Just had a game where I was able to swing for lethal from a nearly empty board by playing Flamerush, copying it, and swinging and making copies of each other. That said, it is clunky alongside other attack triggers.

I just slotted in Delina, Wild Mage after seeing it do some ridiculous things for someone else. Sure, the tokens have the irritating wording making them not stick around, no matter how many copies you make of them, but the chance to roll 15+ multiple times and make an army out of nowhere is worth trying, at least.

Personally, I think there may ultimately be more value to be had on ETB creatures than on attack triggers. There's some big beef there that does a similar job, but works with the copy effects that miss the attack. Also, if upgrading for pure power, the deck could stand to gain Craterhoof at some point. I'm not quite there yet myself, but might. I don't know what your meta looks like, but having big bodies with removal attached has been valuable game after game here with things like Cavalier of Dawn.

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Post by Rumpy5897 » 1 year ago

Any card can have its moment in the spotlight. I once shot a guy out with Boros Charm's bolt mode.

Sure, you could try to tempo/attrition people out with various control elements. You haven't posted a list in a while, but your last one has Cavalier, Archon of Valor's Reach and Luminate Primordial in there. Just add Yosei, the Morning Star and Serra's Emissary for a good old time. I've seen Realm Razer ran in one of those, maybe that will be up your alley? It continues not being up mine. I still want to do aggro things, preferably with crazy scaling off unforeseen extra copies of creatures. I don't foresee that changing.

Unfortunately, attack triggers are a necessary evil for that. If you have any good static/ETB beef that beats out anything in my list, or even Archangel of Thune/Terror of the Peaks, let me know.

Craterhoof Behemoth does not seem like a great idea here. By the time I'm on eight mana, the beatstick plus copier plan should have ideally come online and killed people. Plus the deck is not super wide, so the Hoof pump is not going to be particularly impressive either. Oh, and Hoof would really like to be copied on entry for maximum value, which also limits the range of copiers he plays well with.
 
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Post by yeti1069 » 1 year ago

I've bolted people with Charm also, but that's more of an edge case than keeping in a copier doing copy things that can also turn into an army in a can sometimes. Still may try some different stuff in the slot.

I'd also prefer being pretty straight aggro, but I'm often dying to crackbacks, or getting overrun by other, nastier aggro decks that aren't trying to cobble together so many pieces for their game plan (I think). Not to mention the numerous permanents that make our job more difficult. Realm Razer seems extra mean, and I had similar unfun experiences with Emissary as you did in testing. I tried it here briefly, and in my Sefris deck, where it was fantastic (discard and reanimate in reaction to a huge burn spell was a feel good moment). I'd rather swing with beef than get too cute with control effects, but stuff like the Cavalier are decent bodies (4/6 vigilance) with removal attached. The Primordial I've had cut for a while. Will have to upload a current list this week.

Craterhoof doesn't mind getting copied in combat, and we don't need to be that wide for it to be a good card. It's a little middling with the copiers that cost mana, only because 8 mana + more to copy is a little steep of an ask, but if you're playing games where you swing with Boomgoat on more than one turn, Craterhoof is fairly equivalent. Ghired, Rhino, Crater, and 1 other creature is as big of a pump as the Goat provides much of the time. I'm not sure I want to replace an 8 mana spell (Avacyn) with another 8 mana spell, but Hoof would absolutely do work here.

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