What reprints would you put in Pioneer Horizons?

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Post by The Fluff » 4 years ago

Sakura tribe elder for some good mana fixing? There's no decent fetch lands in this format, so the elder would help a lot.
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Post by Card Slinger J » 4 years ago

Maybe reprint the Allied colored Fastlands from Scars of Mirrodin?
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Post by The Fluff » 4 years ago

reprinting the allied fastlands would certainly help in color fixing.
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Post by motleyslayer » 4 years ago

The Fluff wrote:
4 years ago
Sakura tribe elder for some good mana fixing? There's no decent fetch lands in this format, so the elder would help a lot.
sakura tribe elder would probably be fine in the format but it seems super hard to fit into the format without a "pioneer horizons" type set or going back to Kamigawa

I think it would be super sweet mana fixing though

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Post by The Fluff » 4 years ago

if there's going to be a core set, they could fit him there too.

yeah, it would provide some nice mana fixing. Might help give rise to some decks in this format.
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Post by motleyslayer » 3 years ago

Celestial Purge and Electrolyze would be interesting inclusions in the format. I can't see them breaking much

I'd actually just like to see some kind of 1 mana white removal, Path is probably too good but there are probably options like Condemn

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Post by Cyanu » 3 years ago

can we get the 'no thanks' option? after the travesty of modern horizons i really would not feel comfortable with a similar set in pioneer

1)the power level of such sets is way too high, the slightest mistake will lead to layers of 'brokeness' and entire cycles of bannings that will possible cost us current staples as well, not to mention that the format will be terrible for months to come (see Hoggak → Urza)

2)again the drastic increase in power level would violently shift the format's identity towards artifical archetypes with no continuity, for example i wouldn't wish pioneer to suddenly become all about snow, or all about artifacts etc

3)the monetary cost is simply too high, pioneer other than a couple of decks that overlap with standard/modern and are really expensive as a result remains a largely accessible format, a horizons set would mean the inclusion of W6 class mythics that practically mean that if you want to continue playing your deck you might suddenly be called to spend an extra 200+ euros/dollars/pounds whatever... now imagive if somehow you can slot multiple new staples into your deck... the price increase would be dramatic

pioneer masters sounds less likely to blow the format up and makes it cheaper instead of more expensive, sounds better right?

that doesn't mean i wouldn't want reprints into the format but:

1)absolutely NOTHING that costs 0 mana, no 0 mana spells, no 0 mana artifacts, no 0 mana cyclers, NOTHING!
2)no fetchlands (and generally things that end up in the gy too easily, breaking mechanics like delve)
3)no combo enablers/pieces/generic consistency tools like SV/ancient stirrings etc
4)nothing related to ramp/fast mana/mana ritual etc
5)no bolts, rdw is much more interesting when it's a 'normal' aggro instaed of a completely uninteractive reach based aggro(some even call it combo but whatever)
6)no prison cards!
7)no idiotic color hate! (boil/choke/veil of summer etc)

those are my personal red lines, beyond those answers, midrangey threats, allied color fastlands/manlands, grindy planewalkers etv could all be cool additions to the format, big preference to higher cmcs, it would be cool to have a nonrotating format in which decks actually have a normal curve for a change, instaed of everything being at 0-2 cmc and alternative costs that are practically played by tapping 0-2 lands...

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Post by if4ko » 3 years ago

Angel's Grace seems cool.

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Post by The Fluff » 3 years ago

a reprint of vampire hounds, one more addition to dog tribal.
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Post by RxPhantom » 3 years ago

i really thought Honor of the Pure was in Pioneer. I was wrong and subsequently disappointed.
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Post by The Fluff » 3 years ago

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Post by The Fluff » 3 years ago

Release the Dogs. The dog tribe needs more help.
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Post by drmarkb » 3 years ago

Pioneer horizons is not a good idea right now, even for a couple of years time. Financially the format is not expensive cf Modern et al, and it might blow up, having lost loads of momentum thanks to the ban policy of many bans/no bans and then Covid. Pioneer horizons is not going to be Standard prices, and I think people will view it as raising prices on a cheap format. People play historic right now, and apparently enjoy it, and it would take a very few independent organisers putting it on in paper and making a success of it to potentially sink Pioneer, as they essentially cater to similar markets. A masters type set would just turn people off, and WOTC won't risk that, not when in 4 or 5 years they can make Pioneer masters, probably after Modern has been killed.

MH1 had a lot of cards for commander, and made huge impacts on Legacy as well as Modern. Pioneer masters could be more problematic- if they make the set specifically for Pioneer at Pioneer's power level, they will lose loads of sales, the pioneer audience itself can't sustain a premium product or even a mystery booster level product. A horizons set has to be a multi-format effort (most sets are now) a la MH1 to make sense for WOTC- and then the resulting issues will be more bans a la MH1.

Right now, post pandemic I would say Pioneer needs some event support for a couple of years and not much else.

If you ask me what Pioneer needs to make it a deep, diverse playing experience with all the archetypes- then the answer is it is not meant to be. Combo is unpopular with its players, rightly or wrongly, and combo will generate bans if it gets good.
Fundamentally Pioneer is not going to spring up proper prison decks either, and the format is going to be creature based- the intended audience don't want Modern's linear broken decks, and they don't want landkill, discard, stax or stasis decks that can actually lock games. They want creature based decks of varying speeds including some hatebears, with superfriends and tap-out control on the control side, which is what they have. And, whisper it quuietly, they want control to be weaker than aggro, because it is aimed at players who still fundamentally believe that getting countered is less fun than (or even is different to) having a vanilla creature removed as soon as it hit.
I know you can brew a few prison-ish decks, I have myself with a second sun running enchantment pillow fort, but they are only one board wipe away from a reset, and decks like that won't ever rise to the top of the meta with safety valves running about and not many ways to stop spells being cast.

So basically give it a coupple of years, then design PH1 for a year or two down the line.

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Post by The Fluff » 3 years ago

hoping for a reprint of the horizon lands into pioneer. This format needs some more good lands.
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Post by Krishnath » 3 years ago

I would just like to preface this with that I am not a Pioneer player, but...

I think a cycle of buyback reprints, one in each color, would not break the format. I am talking specifically about: Allay for white, Whispers of the Muse for blue, Disturbed Burial for black, Shattering Pulse for red, and Elvish Fury for green. All of them do something their respective colors are good at, and none of them are problematic in any format they are legal in. I could see Searing Touch and/or Recruit the Worthy standing in for red and white, should Allay and Shattering Pulse be considered to strong removal due to their ability to be repeated.
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Post by The Fluff » 3 years ago

a reprint of allied color manlands. So I could have raging ravine in my pioneer dinosaur deck.
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Post by The Fluff » 3 years ago

a reprint of chameleon colossus. Good sideboard against black decks.
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Post by motleyslayer » 3 years ago

The Fluff wrote:
3 years ago
a reprint of allied color manlands. So I could have raging ravine in my pioneer dinosaur deck.
I feel that the manlands and fast land cycles only being half present in pioneer is kinda awkward at time, so putting the allied of each into pioneer would be interesting

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Post by robertleva » 3 years ago

THe allied manlands would help UW the most I think with colonade. Free, reliable finisher that takes up no design space and is both uncounterable as well as sorcery proof. Ravine does similar things for the colors that use it. The enemy manlands are pretty meh. Although it feels weird only havinig half of a cycle being legal, another way to look at is Pioneer has low power manlands only...and they may want it like that.
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Post by The Fluff » 3 years ago

the enemy manlands do look a bit weak compared to the allied colored ones. Thankfully, Kaheera was printed.. he pumps the enemy manlands in my Abzan, because they're elementals.

I do hope wotc is not thinking that colonnade is too strong for this format.
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Post by The Fluff » 2 years ago

Khalni Garden reprint, turn 1 garden, turn 2 Bayou Groff.
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Post by The Fluff » 2 years ago

white needs better removal.. is path to exile too much to ask for?
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Post by robertleva » 2 years ago

Cards like that are the only difference between Pioneer and Modern. We will get those level of cards eventually and Modern will become even more irrelevant.
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Post by Arkmer » 2 years ago

I pretty well agree with Robert. I feel as though non-rotating formats are destined to eventually overlap so much that they are virtually indistinguishable. I just assume they'll have another format that reaches back to Throne of Eldraine or possibly Guilds of Ravnica; my ONLY flimsy piece of evidence for this is their pointing at Eldraine as a fundamental shift in Standard sets that was mentioned back when Eldraine was being spoiled.

Anyway, I really would like to avoid powering up things too much. I used to get the occasional hyperbole response of (paraphrasing) "you just want to bounce 2/4s off each other all day", but then also get ignored for saying Path to Exile is too much. I love seeing Vanishing Verse though! Two colors, both required? Awesome. It doesn't just slide into anything that happens to be playing White now, it has some additional restrictions in it being mono color which has other deck building and meta considerations. Just a good design. I would love to see more 2mv, 2c removal and I do think WotC sees that they can use that design space better than the overly flexible 1mv design space. There are a few other examples out there, and I think it's headed in the right direction.

Maybe I'm getting too far from things, but I wish there was more double and triple pip color costs. In some cases, they're totally done right, but in other cases it feels like they completely lack the appropriate color requirements because something feels *so heavily black* that it shouldn't be 4B, it should be 2BBB- just a blind example. It would change the mana dynamic enough to change how we design 2 and 3 color decks and lands, which I think is a very important missed opportunity in MtG.

Overall, I think @drmarkb has a good point in saying that a Pioneer Horizons is probably too much right now. Let the format regrow after the completely nonsensical year it has had. Which, btw, has gone through aggressive bans, absolute refusal to ban, and then being crippled by covid.

I guess I'll throw in some things I'd like to see reprinted here at the end? Unfortunately, I think they can't justify Acidic Slime now that Thassa is a sick flicker machine. I'd like to see Cruel Ultimatum because it's in my usual color combination and is good enough to justify its cost unlike Inspired Ultimatum. Definitely finish some land cycles, duh. Maybe Mana Leak; I just think equal mana for Quench is 1 short, but also can see 3 being too many... This is where UU suddenly becomes relevant. I think the card I want to see most is Nameless Inversion, just some dumb nonsense with "Dragons" in that card. Most of the things I want to see are pretty small compared to the powerhouse that is Path to Exile, and I'm usually more concerned with banning something than getting other things.

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Post by Legend » 2 years ago

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