Linden, the Steadfast Queen - Token Aggro

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Post by bobthefunny » 8 months ago

The premise

When building my Knights Deck, I ran across a number of cards like Hero of Bladehold that created tokens on attack, or cards like Knight-Captain of Eos who makes tokens on entering. I felt that there was a decent possibility of the shell of a deck here, and I started looking at cards that could fit the theme more broadly, as well as Commanders that could enable the theme.

I first looked more broadly, and considered going WRG to pick up Hanweir Garrison, Hellrider, Emmara, Soul of the Accord, and Glare of Subdual type options, and considered Marisi, Breaker of the Coil, and Gahiji, Honored One as potential Commanders or includes - an idea that is still appealing.

However, I did notice that the vast majority of the cards I was picking up were in white, and that most cards had multiple colored mana symbols: Double white, double red, green+white... This would make any kind of manabase rather difficult in 3 color (though not impossible, especially with green). I also ran into Linden - again, a high color intensive cost, but another legendary which cared about mass quantities of creatures attacking, though the payoff was much shallower. Since I already had Dawn of Hope slated for the deck, I decided to look into this approach more. With Theros on the horizon, and a potential return to devotion as a mechanic, I opted to lean into the mono-white theme, and see where it goes. As Heliod got spoiled, I figured this might make an amusing experiment.

Why not Heliod as the Commander? Or Daxos?

Heliod has already proven to be a powerful Commander, with some infinite capabilities as well (which my playgroup avoids). I already built and played (and have now taken apart) a Karlov of the Ghost Council soul-sisters type of deck, and am not convinced I want to lean back into that route immediately. I feel that Heliod would likely want to run further that direction. However, Heliod remains a strong contender for this idea of a deck.

While building the deck, Daxos stood out as a potential Commander as well, as he frontloads the value, instead of depending on attacks. He'd still trigger on attacks though, with all the on-attack token generation, though it would be a lesser amount. At this point, I'm commited to Linden though.

After my first game, an opponent mentioned Jazal Goldmane could be promoted to the Command Zone slot as well. I think that requires more mana, but it could definitely work in this shell as well.

How the deck works

This deck is very straightforward. This is a token aggro deck built on using free token-generating effects like Hero of Bladehold to build an army, while buffing that army with cards like Valor in Akros and Cathars' Crusade. The armies created will help fuel Linden the Steadfast Queen's lifegain ability, which in turn will fuel effects like Archangel of Thune or Well of Lost Dreams.

While piloting this deck, you typically want to be in the seat that's dictating the pace of the game. Sometimes you'll need to pace yourself or slow down a bit, but you seek to put your opponents on the back foot, and force them to develop defenses, rather than being able to develop the board the way they want. To that end, your first target should be whichever green deck is ramping the most. Late game magic is a game of who can do the most stuff, and we don't want to let the early mana-explosion decks get comfortable enough to get their set up uninterrupted. Force them to use some of their early plays defensively so that they can't build up such a huge lead over everyone else.


Linden, the Steadfast Queen
Approximate Total Cost:

Cards Run
Ramp
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  • Land Tax - Land Tax will provide consistent land drops equal to anyone else's land total. It won't do anything if we're ahead... but if we're ahead we won't care. Otherwise, it's consistent value, for 'free.' Even the initial cost can repay itself in devotion.
  • Legion's Landing - 1 mana rampant growth. This also increases threat density in the deck.
  • Weathered Wayfarer - Weathered Wayfarer can get non-basics, which can help fetch our powerful lands like Emeria the Sky Ruin or Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx.
  • Sword of the Animist - Fetchable with the equipment tutors.
  • Oath of Lieges - One card anti-ramp tech.
  • Heraldic Banner - This doubles as a minor threat, and helps increase threat density. I have been consistently surprised by it's effectiveness in my Knights deck.
  • Burnished Hart, Boreas Charger, Solemn Simulacrum - These creature based ramp effects pair well with the recovery section of the card list, in order to have multiple use effects.
Removal
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Draw
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I usually like to have 10 sources of draw effects in my decks. Mono white is always a bit harder to reach that, but this is quite low compared to my usual, still. I feel like I might be able to get away with it due to the weenie nature of the deck, and the high amount of recovery options, but this is the area I would most like to bring up to par.
  • Skullclamp - Almost a must for token decks, this can help turn our abundance of creatures into cards.
  • Idol of Oblivion - While this card can be a bit daunting in that it can brick up if our token production disappears, the free activation is very powerful.
  • Dawn of Hope - Linden triggers very frequently, and this can draw cards at a rate of 2 per card.
  • Well of Lost Dreams - Linden triggers very frequently, and this can draw cards at a rate of 1 per card.
  • Mentor of the Meek - Triggering off of tokens is what sets Mentor above Bygone Bishop, who simply doesn't have enough targets. While Mentor can brick up with too many Anthem effect, most of our anthems are temporary, or trigger after the creature enters to put +1 counters, which makes Mentor a good value engine.
  • Mind's Eye - Expensive to drop out, but a powerful effect once it sticks.
  • The Immortal Sun - Part buff with the +1/+1, part ramp with the cost reductions, part draw with the draw trigger, all good.
Tutors:
  • Stoneforge Mystic, Relic Seeker - These two creatures can help us get the game moving by getting land ramp, draw, or recovery, depending on what stage of the game we're in.
Recovery
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  • Spirit Bonds - This slot fought for it's place against Together Forever, as the latter can help reuse certain ETB effects. However, the flying tokens are more powerful in this deck, and there aren't enough +1 counters to make Together work for us reliably. If the deck were led by Heliod, Sun-Crowned, this could be different.
  • Angelic Renewal, Gift of Immortality - These were initially added in to combo with the Land ramp and Draw creatures to gain added value. They also pair well with Sun Titan, but do gain added value the more sac outlets the deck runs.
  • Sword of Light and Shadow - An equipment fetchable with our two tutor creatures, SoLaS has excellent protections and helps recur our valuable creatures and rebuild our board state in the late game.
  • Marshal's Anthem - An anthem that also helps mass resurrect, this can singlehandedly rebuild a lost board state after a wrath effect.
  • Sun Titan - A white staple, Sun Titan has a myriad of uses from helping you ramp (with sac/fetch lands), to rebuilding a board, to abusing sacrifice/etb effects.
  • Emeria Shepherd - Another powerful card, especially in Mono-W where you can chain effects from the graveyard to reestablish a large board presence post-wrath.
Threats - Tokens - 14
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Threats - Buffs
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  • Heliod, Sun-Crowned - Heliod is like a mini Archangel of Thune, able to turn every attack either into 1 counter on each token attacking, or to supercharge key attackers.
  • Crescendo of War - Crescendo is a card that gets scary very quickly, since it charges up every attack. Since it boosts your blockers as well, you can start making very efficient trades, but you want to make sure you don't lose too much of your army, otherwise attacking gets difficult as well. I usually pair this card with Vigilance and First Strike in my token decks for even added value, but it's fine as just a buff here.
  • Jazal Goldmane - Jazal is like having your own personal Overrun in white. Being able to activate multiple times makes even a small number of attackers a terrifying threat.
  • Valor in Akros - Valor is like a second copy of Cathars' Crusade. While the buffs aren't temporary - simply getting a +4-5 a turn is perfectly fine and will close out the game quick enough on its own.
  • Archangel of Thune - A seriously capable threat that combos with Linden, who creates individual lifegain triggers.
  • Divine Visitation - This powers up every token we create. Curving Hero of Bladehold or Leonine Warleader into this is an amazing feeling.
  • Cathars' Crusade - A classic threat for token decks, the only annoyance is the ever increasing amounts of dice you'll need.
Threats - Other - 4
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  • Reconnaissance - An overly powerful card in white that can protect our attackers from unfavorable blocks, as well as giving a pseudo-vigilance state to our attackers, thanks to rules loopholes.
  • Daxos, Blessed by the Sun - The other source of lifegain in the deck, Daxos can really up the life we gain with all the tokens that enter, and as a bonus, he'll trigger when we lose tokens as well.
  • Crackdown - We're playing white, and we're playing small creatures. This will keep opponents' creatures tapped, and shut down even more blockers, while also making it more difficult/risky for them to counter attack. I'm very tempted to add more effects of this nature, such as Marble Titan or Meekstone to furthur lock down opponents.
  • Fanatical Devotion - A great card for token decks, this helps keep our consistent token makers alive, as well as making us able to keep half of our board in most board wipe situations.
Lands - 39
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Fetch lands
Fetch lands pair with Sun Titan for Ramp, and can also trigger effects like Emeria Angel or Field of the Dead more frequently. Fetch lands can also get non-basic plains, like Idyllic Grange.

Other Lands
Cards I'm eager to test:
Valor in Akros - An anthem effect that gets by under Meekstone effects, I think it should be interesting with effects like Hero of Bladehold, although Decree of Justice has currently been cut. Goldnight Commander is an extra version of this effect, should it prove successful.

Exclusions
Martial Coup, Hour of Reckoning - I like the idea of token based wraths, however, I feel that Elspeth fits this role better in this deck, as she can also multi-task. The other two wrath slots are taken by items that can hit more than just creatures.

Cards that want to come in:
Mind's Eye, Conqueror's Galleon - My draw is low.
Meekstone, Opal Guardian.
Glory - protection. Alpha strike possibilities.
Knight-Captain of Eos - tokens -- Currently eyeing Springjack Shepherd's slot.
Mavren Fein, Dusk Apostle - tokens
Precinct Captian - tokens
God-favored general - tokens
Sacred Mesa - tokens
Land Tax - Because of Scaretiller and Suntitan, and because it's good. May potentially replace Wayfarer's Bauble or Oath of Lieges.
Odric, Master Tactition - combat control
Catapult Squad - A lot of the token support is soldiers - however, a lot of other soldier support and vigilance (Heliod, god of the sun) didn't make the cut.
Martial Law, Citadel Siege - Combat control.
Together Forever - Recursion - much +1 counter support was cut, but would be nice to recur some of the card draw/ramp.

Amusing interactions in white:
Last edited by bobthefunny 8 months ago, edited 14 times in total.

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Post by Ulka » 8 months ago

I feel like your lands could be worked on a bit. With terrain generator I personally like looking at 18+ basics and if you were to up your basic count Isolated Watchtower becomes viable for a ramp base.

Kjeldoran Outpost seems like it should be in the list along with Flagstones of Trokair

I see you are on snow basics already and Scrying Sheets could be a very effective way to help with the ramping.

The deck itself I feel seems very well tuned. The token strategy seems to pair well along with the deck her lifegain should provide a bit of a cushion for the crack back.

One threat I'd consider adding to your list as much as a nonbo as it is is the amazing cat god God-eternal Oketra. That said Oketra the true could be a solid addition. The same could be said about Ajani, Strength of the Pride.

I also noticed there is no Resplendent Angel. I know the 5 life may seem like a bunch to gain but I feel like this card will help you snowball hard and help you close out games.
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Post by bobthefunny » 8 months ago

Ulka wrote:
8 months ago
I feel like your lands could be worked on a bit. With terrain generator I personally like looking at 18+ basics and if you were to up your basic count Isolated Watchtower becomes viable for a ramp base.

Kjeldoran Outpost seems like it should be in the list along with Flagstones of Trokair

I see you are on snow basics already and Scrying Sheets could be a very effective way to help with the ramping.

The deck itself I feel seems very well tuned. The token strategy seems to pair well along with the deck her lifegain should provide a bit of a cushion for the crack back.

One threat I'd consider adding to your list as much as a nonbo as it is is the amazing cat god God-eternal Oketra. That said Oketra the true could be a solid addition. The same could be said about Ajani, Strength of the Pride.

I also noticed there is no Resplendent Angel. I know the 5 life may seem like a bunch to gain but I feel like this card will help you snowball hard and help you close out games.
Thanks for looking it over and the reply! Lots of good things to think about and consider here.

Terrain Generator may actually be on the cutting block. I generally like it as a ramp card, but to be effective it needs to be paired with a decent amount of card draw, which is currently too unpredictable in my goldfishing (as I expected). I also note that I didn't find a Winding Canyons to slot into this deck, which I'm feeling is an oversight. May also look at the new sac version that gives all spells flash for a turn to do surprise enchantment buffs too...

Kjeldoran Outpost is a land I like a lot, but I'm a bit more concerned about the loss of a land in this deck than I normally would be otherwise. I also don't feel that I really want to dump mana into the lands, if able (they're not the most efficient forms of token generation), so they're usually a backup/spare mana situation, so I'm seeing how Castle Ardenvale and the Camp land hold it for now. I'll keep an eye on it.

I really don't like Scrying Sheets. I know it's an unpopular opinion, but even if I jumped to 20 basics, it's 2 and tap (so 3 mana total), to have a 1 in 5 chance of drawing a card. Unless I add a lot of topdeck manipulation, I don't think that's a good use of mana. I do think that Scry Sheets has a home, but I feel that it is unnecessarily jammed into every deck with snowlands, without real thought of what it is meant to accomplish.

Both of the Oketra's seem interesting. The creature count is actually lower than I expected in this deck (I expected around 30, and I'm at 24), but both have something solid to add. I'll consider them.

Resplendent Angel is a good thought... I'm actually worried about my Flying selection right now. Getting to 5 life a turn isn't always easy, but it does happen. I only have 1 angel right now though, and it's in Trostani. I may move it over and see what I can make room for it.



Any ideas on what cards appear weaker to you to make room for these?

I'll be playing this deck tonight, so this should be interesting.

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Post by Ulka » 8 months ago

That's really fair on Scying Sheets and terrain generator. I was just musing on the idea of land based ramping.

Cards that feel out of place or weaker:
Angelic Renewal - It feels Kinda Meh
Spawning Pit - I've never been a fan of this card. It always feels like way too much work to assemble things.
Scaretiller - I feel like you want more.

One card I found when thinking on this more last night was Regna, the redeemer. More flying and token support as its super easy for you to get life each turn.

another card to consider over Daxos is Auriok Champion
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Post by bobthefunny » 8 months ago

Ulka wrote:
8 months ago
That's really fair on Scying Sheets and terrain generator. I was just musing on the idea of land based ramping.

Cards that feel out of place or weaker:
Angelic Renewal - It feels Kinda Meh
Spawning Pit - I've never been a fan of this card. It always feels like way too much work to assemble things.
Scaretiller - I feel like you want more.

One card I found when thinking on this more last night was Regna, the redeemer. More flying and token support as its super easy for you to get life each turn.

another card to consider over Daxos is Auriok Champion
Saw your reply earlier but didn't have the time to get to it right away. Just got back from my LGS where I got to play a game, I'll write up about that in a sec. :)

===

I'll keep an eye on those cards you mentioned and see how they run out. I'll give a few words as to why they made the inclusion though, so you at least have the context of how they got there:

Angellic Renewal is one of the cards that's there to potentially synergise with some of the ramp draw effect, such as if I manage to curve it on 2 into burnished hart on 3, or even double up a solemn simulacrum. It also supports as a protection/recursion in case of removal or creature wipe. As a last synergy, it's rather nuts with sun titan in terms of protection, because you can sac the sun titan, sac the renewal to get back the titan, which then gets back the renewal.

Spawning Pit is a bit of wrath protection in that it consolidates tokens that would be lost, into a form that can then be used to repopulate the board. Hasn't come up yet though. Free sac outlets are hard to come by in white though, and this also fits that role for some shenanigans. Perhaps I should consider Ashnod's Altar instead?

Scaretiller got added in due to the sac lands, as a mini-sun-titan for ramp. Perhaps 6 isn't enough though, especially since he needs to attack to get his effect off. I'll agree he may be on the weaker end, and could be a good replacement candidate.

===

Regna looks excellent! I think I forgot to consider her due to the partner, but that is great. My one reservation is the 6 cost, but I may want to just keep her in consideration. I may reevaluate some of my 6+ drops.

So, Daxos made it in primarily because I opted to hold on to making Linden as I waited for Theros to be revealed in hopes of seeing the new devotion cards. Then Heliod and Daxos got revealed together, and they seemed like good fits. While building the deck, I realized Daxos could also be a decent alternate Commander as well, giving that more immediate value. That said, I wasn't intending to really go Soul-sister heavy.

I do like the protections on Auriok Champion, but I also like Daxos' higher base toughness, and triggers on dying too, letting me play with sac effects possibly. Honestly, the right call might be to cut both and just let Linden be the enabler - although I like having a backup to the Commander too. I'll give it a bit more time.

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Post by bobthefunny » 8 months ago

So I got to play one game yesterday night. It was a 5 player game, and lasted a good long while. It went pretty much exactly as I'd hoped.

Kozilek the great distortion vs. Linden, the Steadfast Queen vs. Kenrith, the Returned King vs. Derevi, Empyrial Tactician vs. Yarok, the Desecrated

For the entire beginning of the game, the Kozilek deck just plays land and passes. He later shows us that his opening hand had been 6 lands (one that taps for two) and Sol Ring. He makes up for this later, by literally playing every single legal Eldrazi titan, one a turn for 6 turns straight. (his Commander was cast twice in that).

I start off with some mana issues, but lead with a Skullclamp and Heliod, Sun-Crowned, but miss a land drop for turn 4. Derevi plays a Tempt with Discovery, which Yarok passes, Eldrazi gets the Eye of Ugin, and I accept the tempt (I know!) due to being land screwed, as does Kenrith, for similar reasons. Yarok is dissappointed, but this allows be to play Hero of Bladehold. My next turn, missing a land still, I drop Solemn Simulacrum to get my fifth, and attack with Hero, splitting the tokens to start getting a board.

Then... things get interesting. I realize that I have Gift of Immortality and Fanatical Devotion in hand, and quickly put together what this means for me... but I also want to cast Linden, and I don't have that kind of mana... or do I? I topdeck a crucial land, and note that I have my Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx out, which makes Linden essentially free, especially with Heliod and Hero providing 3 devotion already. I hesitate slightly, and then decide, to heck with it - might as well go all out for the first game. I drop Linden, activate Nykthos. and drop the other two. I swing in with Hero, two tokens, + the 2 new ones for 3 life gain, and 3 counters onto the Hero to start the fear (I missed that Heliod was active and could attack).

Post combat, I start my Solemn Simulacrum shenanigans to get a land and a card each turn, but this doesn't last long. On Derevi's turn, he takes great offence at this, and we arrive at memorable moment one, as he casts Bant Charm, holds priority, and Split Decision on it, to start some politics to remove crucial elements of my board. Initially he wants to hit the robot and heliod with Tuck, but realizes that I can turn off Heliod from being a creature. With some discussion with the Yarok deck and Eldrazi (Eldrazi mentions that he can deal with my boardstate if it gets to his turn, but Derevi doesn't want to leave me Robot+Gift that long), he aims instead at Robot + Hero, and adds on a response of Forsake the Worldly onto Heliod as well. The Copy votes go through, so of course all three target Fanatically Sacrifice themselves to save Linden, who was in no danger whatsoever, but it is only her due as Queen. Long live the queen!
20200205_201357b.jpg
Of course, Yarok then does something scary, going from nothing to a full board in seconds. Included in this is a Yarok'ed double Merciless Executioner for a double sac, which cleans up some stuff and takes out two tokens of mine. Derevi asks Eldrazi to handle it, since he was previously able to handle my board state, to which Eldrazi responds that his answer was one-driectional, but he decides to try his best anyways, and casts Emrakul, the Promised End and takes control of Yarok's next turn, to see if he can maybe do some damage before relinquishing control. I laugh and give him a high five, because controlling my turn with a sac outlet out would indeed have been devastating.

So it's back to me, after having been soundly wrecked. I draw my card. Given the option to play back a bit now that I've been chastised... or go double or nothing in vengeance.... Clearly vengeance is the call. I drop Brimaz, King of Oreskos, Reconnaissance, and Hallowed Spiritkeeper for devotion, activate Nykthos, and drop Valor in Akros, followed by Archangel of Thune, for +1 to the board. I swing out with Linden and my two non-sick tokens at Derevi, for 3 lifegain triggers. In response to that, I sac the Hallowed Spirit keeper to get 4 tokens on the board, for 4 Valor in Akros triggers, then let the lifegain resolve for 3 Thune triggers. In total, a decent attack for 29 damage off of 3 creatures, and I feel a suitable repercussion to Derevi for messing with my stuff.

This then proceeds to Derevi, Yarok, and Eldrazi conspiring once again agaisnt my boardstate, including Eldrazi now trying to figure out how to most HELP Yarok with the extra controlled turn instead of breaking his position. I am gleeful.
20200205_203142b.jpg
Between the combined 4 turns (Kenrith is still sitting back, as his boardstate has been collateral damage in previous wipes, and is constantly rebuilding), my boardstate gets fairly whittled away, which ate a fair number of tokens. Archangel of Thune gets removed. I eat a powerful Eldrazi Conscriptioned Kozilek the great distortion, which takes out a fair bit of my support, as well as Linden. I then don't have AS much to do, but still swing in with a powered up Brimaz, which got boosted to 10 power from Valor in Akros triggers and left over +1 counters, for 12 damage to Yarok, who goes:

"Dear god, that much after all that?!? And from just that?"

A glorious moment! Kenrith does point out that it could have been far worse, seeing as I'd hit Derevi for 29 the turn before, with only a small handful of tokens as well. I try to rebuild enough to absorb another Eldrazi attack if needed, and Brimaz's vigilance helps a lot towards that. So at least that's going for me.

Kenrith nukes the O-Stone anyways prior to Eldrazi's turn, to stop those scary beats (since he has a 1 shot commander). But Eldrazi just drops another Eldrazi titan, I don't remember if it was Ulamog or Kozilek, but it had annihilator 4.

It is at this point that an empty-handed Yarok exclaims:

"I can't believe the Mono-White deck has managed to hold on to cards longer than I have! And it's not because you've been holding back either!"

Hearing that was another moral victory for this game.

This leads into my turn, which is Sun Titan to return Hallowed Spiritkeeper, but have no meaningful attacks. On this round, I eat a Strionic Resonator copied Annihilator 4 trigger attack against me. I sac my spiritkeeper to a High Market to get some tokens, but still end up handing over the spirit keeper, a land, and another creature since Eldrazi had also dropped an It that Betrays prior to combat.

I think it's Kenrith that clears the board again, and prior to my turn I use my Ghost Quarter on my Opal Palace to get the last plains needed for Emeria, the Sky Ruin. The next few rounds involved bringing back Sun Titan, Hallowed Spiritkeeper, Fanatical Devotion, and other friends to build up some tokens. I also add Twilight Drover to the mix. Finally, after one wipe leaves me with a small board, thanks to Fanatical Devotion saving twilight drover and 3 tokens, allowing me to make 4 more, I decide that it's time to stop recovery, and go for the kill. I return Jazal Goldmane instead of Sun Titan, and swing in Drover at Derevi, 4 spirits at Yarok, and 3 at Eldrazi. Sadly, Yarok manages to flash out a flyer, and wild pairs a creature with a bounce ability to stop 2 attackers at him, leaving him at 2 life.

Kenrith blows up an O-stone for something like the 3rd or 4th time this game, though forgot I had previously returned Fanatical Devotion. This lets me save half my board - though the Fanatical Devotion itself dies, as does a mana rock I'd played, which drops me below double activation on Jazal. Kenrith hastes up and takes out Yarok.

On my turn though, Emmeria returns Sun Titan, which returns Fanatical Devotion (for safety), which puts me at devotion for Nykthos and the kill on the attack with a double activation of Jazal.


===

Takeaways: Yes. Aggro. Good.

Valor in Akros performed admirably, and I was quite happy on that effect, even though it's not Cathars' Crusade.

I thought during goldfishing that Jazal Goldmane might be too mana intensive, and might be better as Goldnight Commander, but I'm happy now that he stayed in. I have to admit that Nykthos carried my mana issues though, so we'll have to see how it goes if I don't have that.

I don't feel that any card noticeably under-performed or disappointed in that game so far. Some might bear some watching, but all was good.

I had considered running Martyr's Cause alongside Fanatical Devotion, but couldn't find mine. I'm kind of glad now though, as Fanatical Devotion was more used to survive things like O-Stone, rather than just damage, which made it far better than Martyr's Cause.

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 8 months ago

Whenever I play mono white my concern is always staying relevant later into the game. Commanders with complicated and complex strategies that require multiple cards to build up to do something is always concerning for me due to how badly they get wrathed.

My immediate concerns with Linden is that I don't think she does enough. I have done mono W lifegain a few times with a few different strategies but my concern with Linden is that she relies on multiple attackers with a lifegain payoff and she lacks any evasion or size. Essentially, she has low board impact later in the game than if you were to post wrath cast Gisela, the Broken Blade (a similar costing lifegaining mono w commander).

The real payoff for Linden comes from effects like Archangel of Thune and Heliod, Sun-Crowned which trigger each time you gain life rather than based on gaining so much life in a turn. In my opinion, these effects are still very few and far between. Almost every other lifegain payoff effect I can come up with seems better served by a different commander / tactic. If I could name off like 5 or more other effects where she clearly did better than other lifegain commanders it might be different but for now, I feel like her payoff cards are too few and far between.

In a nutshell, I don't feel like Linden does enough to justify her as a commander. I actually built a Lena, Selfless Champion build a while back that was sort of lightly soul sisters based and I have also built Gisela, the Broken Blade in the past. My concern with Linden offhand is the complexity of boardstate you are trying to get to and how few payoffs really advocate for her over any lifegain commander. If you go to recast her post wrath how much work is it going to be to rebuild. I don't like coming in and suggesting a commander swap but its my immediate concern if you are trying to optimize this deck.
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Post by bobthefunny » 8 months ago

That is a very fair assessment. I do wish there were more cards that fit this set of triggers. There are actually a decent number more - but they have limited impact (Geideon's Company, Serene Steward (too mana intensive), twinblade paladin, Ajani's Pridemate *). In general, I would currently describe the deck currently in the terms that the deck's main strategy enables Linden (rather than her supporting the main strategy), but Linden supports two major sub-themes of the deck (Lifegain triggers, and Devotion).

I do realize that several other Commanders would work 'better' - but that's actually part of the reason I chose her. People keep saying that she's bad, etc, and I felt that it would be a fun challenge to make her work. Even in my initial idea sounding-out thread, Linden got a lot of hate, and I'm a contrary person.

I guess what I'm saying is that I know she's sub-par, but that's part of the reason why I chose to build her - to see if I could make her work (and actually make her work with the deck, rather than having the deck work despite her).

===
* Ajani, Strength of the Pride could have potential. I'm not sure I really like him though, because his other two abilities essentially have no impact, and the -2 makes it easier to kill him off, as well as making it slow to get more Cats after the first rounds of it.
twinblade paladin could also be a decent beat-stick - he might be borderline.

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 8 months ago

Ok, I figured I would take a look at your list then given that we are accepting that the commander is Linden. I just figured it was worth talking about first but if its the way you want to go its fine.

Some of the first things that jump to mind for me are:
  • Path to Exile / Swords to Plowshares - Ok, I know people love these cards. My point is that you can't really afford to be so selective in your removal as to have creature only spot removal in mono white in most cases. I know full well how useful spot removal is, my point is more that we don't have good card advantage in mono white and the targeting options for these are incredibly narrow. I tend to play them more when playing against dedicated combo or when playing multicolored decks with better card advantage in them. Like if you are playing a UW control deck for instance I think they get a lot more reasonable. I often opt not to run them in mono white though due to how narrow their targeting is. If I want this number of spot removal options I often go for Unexpectedly Absent or Cast Out. I normally hate O Rings in Commander but Cast Out has been growing on me of late due to the cycle and flash elements. Generally speaking, I often don't feel like I can afford to run heavy levels of instant speed 1 for 1 spot removal in mono white.
  • Gift of Immortality - You aren't really ETB / Death trigger based and from what I see, I see like.... 2 sac outlets. I guess I am just questioning why this card made the cut. I would probably rely on Darksteel Plate for being robust given how its easier to tutor in mono W.
  • Twilight Drover - This thing is soooooooooooooo bloody slow. I would prefer to see Sacred Mesa make the cut over this card given both of them are mana intensive. The reason I say that though is that Sacred Mesa gives faster effect and is harder to sweep from play.
  • Monastery Mentor - You are mono white.... I guess my point is that unless your commander is like.... Sram you probably can't make many tokens and or pump them.
  • First Response - Is this like, just fetchlands that make this for you? It just seems..... kind of random I guess.
  • Scaretiller - Its so slow. Yea you have fetches and cycling lands but ughhhhhhh its sooooooo slow.
  • Angelic Renewal - I would like it more if you had more sac outlets.
Maybe consider:
  • Emeria Angel - You have fetchlands in here already. Its a bunch of evasive threats and it doesn't require you to pump a bunch of mana in or attack on the ground.
  • Rune-Tail, Kitsune Ascendant - You gain life and make a bunch of fragile tokens that don't fly in a lot of cases. Its probably not as good as Reconnaissance but it might be worth consideration.
  • Crucible of Worlds - You do have fetchlands and are questioning if you should have more card advantage.
  • Weathered Wayfarer - I love me some Emeria. Plus you have cycle lands and a bunch of sweet utility stuffs.
  • Mind's Eye - I almost never make any mono white deck without this.
  • Stoneforge Mystic - its a body and it replaces itself in hand to carry its own equipment.
  • Endless Atlas - More draw is good.
  • The Immortal Sun - Its draw, an anthem, and cost reduction. It does a lot and I like it in token decks where you need more draw.
Generally, I would cut some of the slower stuff and add more draw / value. I am going to go ahead and assume you aren't planning to play this against combo decks because I think for the most part mono W vs combo is a bad idea. Control and Ramp decks are going to be the next biggest concerns. Vs control the best answer is to draw more cards. Vs ramp its move faster but thats harder to do generally.
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Post by bobthefunny » 8 months ago

ISBPathfinder wrote:
8 months ago
Ok, I figured I would take a look at your list then given that we are accepting that the commander is Linden. I just figured it was worth talking about first but if its the way you want to go its fine.
Thanks for your feedback! A lot to take in here, and I agree with a number of the changes. I'll have to look at how I want to implement them though.

Like with Ulka, I'll start with your list of questionables, and give some background as to why they initially made the cut.
  • Path to Exile / Swords to Plowshares - PtE and StP come down to mana cost. While I love general catch-alls like Unexpectedly Absent, or even Oblation once long ago, the more aggro the deck, the less mana I can justify keeping up. Having instant answers for 1 mana makes it easier to hold up. I'm also not trying to answer any threat. My biggest answer is to BE the threat, that way other people are responding, or holding defense, rather than forcing me to react. That said, something there's a piece giving someone a bit too much advantage, or there's a giant eldrazi barrelling down your face, or what have you. Some removal is needed, and creatures are the most prevalent permanent type out there, that I'm not too worried about having some narrow applications.
  • Gift of Immortality, Angelic Renewal - These were initially added to combo with the ramp/draw creatures (burnished hart, solemn simulacrum, etc). Of which there are less that made it, and less sac outlets than in the initial card pull. I still like them even without sac outlets, as protection, and as synergy with sun titan, but Ulka also raised the point about these, so I'll take a closer look at them.
  • Twilight Drover - It served me well game one, but I see your point. I do like Sacred Mesa, and was sad about not fitting it in. I did pull Emeria Angel out for the first pack of cards, and maybe I didn't value that highly enough.
  • Monastery Mentor - This viewpoint intrigues me. You hype Emeria Angel, but shut down monastery mentor, even though under normal use they'll have similar token production. Emeria Angel will produce typically one token per turn(ish), based on land drop - If I can consistently make the land drop. Maybe 2 with a fetchland. The deck has 39 lands, and 37 non-creatures - which means the draw rate for non-creatures vs. lands should be similar.
  • First Response - In the spirit of free tokens, Darien made an early cut of the deck, and I considered having some painlands/city of brass effects to play off of it, given that I had lifegain to buff it. There wasn't enough to really get consistent value out of it, so I cut the pain lands, Darien didn't make it due to CMC. First Response I think managed to stay in off the desert and the fetchlands (with Sun Titan/scaretiller), as well as an attack deterrent, but I even started questioning it as I sleeved up the deck. This might be an easy swap to Emeria Angel.
  • Scaretiller - Ulka brought up this one as well. I really want to like this card, but perhaps this is not the deck for it.
Maybe consider:
  • Emeria Angel - I had initially pulled it. You have convinced me.
  • Rune-Tail, Kitsune Ascendant - I ran this in my Heliod deck. I'll consider it, and keep an eye out if I need more protection to my attacking creatures. Good call.
  • Crucible of Worlds - Might be a good replacement for Scaretiller.
  • Weathered Wayfarer - I was considering Land Tax, but Wayfarer to pick up emeria and Nykthos seems good.
  • Mind's Eye - I had this on the side and was concerned about mana investment, but you're probably right on it.
  • Stoneforge Mystic - Yeah, this should be in in place of Steelshaper's Gift. Perhaps alongside, but that would be a question more if I'd want gift to come back in in place of something else.
  • Endless Atlas - I guess I'll need to pick up another one of these.
  • The Immortal Sun - Likewise as above. Probably replace the Caged sun, as they'll have similar effects, but this also adds the draw.
Generally, I would cut some of the slower stuff and add more draw / value. I am going to go ahead and assume you aren't planning to play this against combo decks because I think for the most part mono W vs combo is a bad idea. Control and Ramp decks are going to be the next biggest concerns. Vs control the best answer is to draw more cards. Vs ramp its move faster but thats harder to do generally.
Some good advice. My playgroup is less combo-heavy. There are combo-ish decks, but nothing crazy or insane. If my meta were more combo and higher power, this would probably be Heliod helmed, with my own combo as a backup, but that honestly doesn't sound very exciting to me.


Thanks!

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Post by bobthefunny » 8 months ago

@Ulka @ISBPathfinder How do you two feel about Smothering Tithe? Too slow?

I've also had my eye on Elspeth Conquers Death. I don't like the 5 cost for a single removal, but I do like the Removal and Recursion put together. I think it might be slow for this deck, but I wonder if it might fit other mono-W decks. Have either of you tried it?

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 8 months ago

bobthefunny wrote:
8 months ago
ISBPathfinder wrote:
8 months ago
Ok, I figured I would take a look at your list then given that we are accepting that the commander is Linden. I just figured it was worth talking about first but if its the way you want to go its fine.
Thanks for your feedback! A lot to take in here, and I agree with a number of the changes. I'll have to look at how I want to implement them though.

Like with Ulka, I'll start with your list of questionables, and give some background as to why they initially made the cut.
  • Path to Exile / Swords to Plowshares - PtE and StP come down to mana cost. While I love general catch-alls like Unexpectedly Absent, or even Oblation once long ago, the more aggro the deck, the less mana I can justify keeping up. Having instant answers for 1 mana makes it easier to hold up. I'm also not trying to answer any threat. My biggest answer is to BE the threat, that way other people are responding, or holding defense, rather than forcing me to react. That said, something there's a piece giving someone a bit too much advantage, or there's a giant eldrazi barrelling down your face, or what have you. Some removal is needed, and creatures are the most prevalent permanent type out there, that I'm not too worried about having some narrow applications.
  • Gift of Immortality, Angelic Renewal - These were initially added to combo with the ramp/draw creatures (burnished hart, solemn simulacrum, etc). Of which there are less that made it, and less sac outlets than in the initial card pull. I still like them even without sac outlets, as protection, and as synergy with sun titan, but Ulka also raised the point about these, so I'll take a closer look at them.
  • Twilight Drover - It served me well game one, but I see your point. I do like Sacred Mesa, and was sad about not fitting it in. I did pull Emeria Angel out for the first pack of cards, and maybe I didn't value that highly enough.
  • Monastery Mentor - This viewpoint intrigues me. You hype Emeria Angel, but shut down monastery mentor, even though under normal use they'll have similar token production. Emeria Angel will produce typically one token per turn(ish), based on land drop - If I can consistently make the land drop. Maybe 2 with a fetchland. The deck has 39 lands, and 37 non-creatures - which means the draw rate for non-creatures vs. lands should be similar.
  • First Response - In the spirit of free tokens, Darien made an early cut of the deck, and I considered having some painlands/city of brass effects to play off of it, given that I had lifegain to buff it. There wasn't enough to really get consistent value out of it, so I cut the pain lands, Darien didn't make it due to CMC. First Response I think managed to stay in off the desert and the fetchlands (with Sun Titan/scaretiller), as well as an attack deterrent, but I even started questioning it as I sleeved up the deck. This might be an easy swap to Emeria Angel.
  • Scaretiller - Ulka brought up this one as well. I really want to like this card, but perhaps this is not the deck for it.
Maybe consider:
  • Emeria Angel - I had initially pulled it. You have convinced me.
  • Rune-Tail, Kitsune Ascendant - I ran this in my Heliod deck. I'll consider it, and keep an eye out if I need more protection to my attacking creatures. Good call.
  • Crucible of Worlds - Might be a good replacement for Scaretiller.
  • Weathered Wayfarer - I was considering Land Tax, but Wayfarer to pick up emeria and Nykthos seems good.
  • Mind's Eye - I had this on the side and was concerned about mana investment, but you're probably right on it.
  • Stoneforge Mystic - Yeah, this should be in in place of Steelshaper's Gift. Perhaps alongside, but that would be a question more if I'd want gift to come back in in place of something else.
  • Endless Atlas - I guess I'll need to pick up another one of these.
  • The Immortal Sun - Likewise as above. Probably replace the Caged sun, as they'll have similar effects, but this also adds the draw.
Generally, I would cut some of the slower stuff and add more draw / value. I am going to go ahead and assume you aren't planning to play this against combo decks because I think for the most part mono W vs combo is a bad idea. Control and Ramp decks are going to be the next biggest concerns. Vs control the best answer is to draw more cards. Vs ramp its move faster but thats harder to do generally.
Some good advice. My playgroup is less combo-heavy. There are combo-ish decks, but nothing crazy or insane. If my meta were more combo and higher power, this would probably be Heliod helmed, with my own combo as a backup, but that honestly doesn't sound very exciting to me.


Thanks!
Emeria Angel - Keep in mind as well that they all fly and you get better stats for the mana in my opinion. You can also use it a lot easier defensively than you can the monks and given that they all fly they are a better equipment delivery system. Its a lot harder to trigger 2x token generation in a turn with the monk than it is the angel because you probably don't have the card draw and there is a cost to the monk as well being that you need to cast noncreatures. What if your noncreatures are removal or wraths? Those tend to be better played at specific times where as the catchall of play more lands is always relevant. I also think I would prefer a 1/1 flyer over a 2/2 non flyer (assuming monks prowess). The payoff of getting the first token is probably also faster on the angel than it is the monk as its more likely that having 4 mana plus a land than 3 mana plus a noncreature to cast in a turn. Monastery Mentor is a card I want when I have a heavy cantrip concept going on.

Scaretiller - I keep hoping we see some sort of Glare of Subdual commander get created. I do like what this does, its just too slow as it stands in my opinion for most decks. It would also be really cool in a deck that can run Clock of Omens but colored mana decks (for the fetches) that run Clock of Omens tend to be few and far between.
bobthefunny wrote:
8 months ago
Ulka ISBPathfinder How do you two feel about Smothering Tithe? Too slow?

I've also had my eye on Elspeth Conquers Death. I don't like the 5 cost for a single removal, but I do like the Removal and Recursion put together. I think it might be slow for this deck, but I wonder if it might fit other mono-W decks. Have either of you tried it?
Smothering Tithe - Personally I think its overrated as all heck. The places it does belong though tend to be decks that have a lot of X mana spells or have commanders who gobble up mana like hot cakes. I think its a card that too many people try to force everywhere. Its a good card in the right deck but I think the decks you want it in are sort of specific. Its also decent as a hatebear effect if you happen to see a lot of cantrip decks because it punishes the heck out of those. I tend to focus more on it when my own deck wants to be doing things it helps with though than trying to run it as a hate card. I also think that people hate on this card way more than its worth in value. People see it and I swear they see Rhystic Study which it totally is not. I guess in my mind I value it as like a Seedborn Muse. I assume its going to get swatted like immediately so I only play it in decks where I think it has a lot of synergy with the deck rather than try to jam it everywhere. I don't think it belongs in this list to be truthful.

Elspeth Conquers Death - I own a bunch of copies but with my baby being less than two months old, I sort of haven't had time to play any magic essentially since she was born. I think I like it the most in decks that play towards enchantment concepts. Having it in the back pocket for Hall of Heliod's Generosity or maybe even Replenish recover it would all be nice. I don't think its so strong that I would just jam it everywhere though myself. I had planned to push a copy into my Sram auras list though just to see how it went at some point. Overall I think that its probably a little situational as to where I would include it though.
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Post by bobthefunny » 8 months ago



A few other considerations: ( @ISBPathfinder )
- Annointed Procession - Ran into this while flipping through my trostani deck to see where my Angel was at. I feel that considering my quantity of tokens, I should at least look at this, but I wonder if it's a 'win-more' card.
- Dusk // Dawn - Wrath and recovery together. Currently there are about 10ish creatures that could be returned by it, which isn't great - and most of them are ramp/utility - but that half is added value from the wrath.

I figured the pull on Field of the Dead made sense. Mouth of Ronom is a nice emergency button, especially vs. pro-white, but I think the proactive tokens will be more powerful. Even if they are non-white, and won't trigger Linden, it's still free army supply.


*Still looking at Twilight Drover - he can be good in token decks, which this is. He may return.

Edit: also tempted to Wayfarer's BaubleLand Tax

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 8 months ago

@bobthefunny
  • Anointed Procession - I always fight with it a little because it doesn't do anything itself. It can be nice but without your commander being a token producer I guess its going to come down to a question of exactly how many cards you plan on running make tokens. I often pass on it unless my commander directly makes tokens or I have a LOT of focus on token production in my cards. I have always struggled with the thought that its a winmore effect that over commits you to the board with a slow return on investment with a high removal priority targeting on it. I do really like it with Hero of Bladehold effects I guess the question is going to be just how many effects you have that it helps and if its better than just having another token producer or not. I would generally lean towards not given how many things you are doing here.
  • Dusk // Dawn - Personally, I think the wrath portion of it is really sort of lacking. It lacks versatility is my primary issue not to mention that a lot of really good creatures you run yourself would be very unfortunate to hit with this. I would rather see Austere Command to be honest.
  • Twilight Drover - Without more of a focus on sac outlets I have a hard time justifying it. If you were running mana altars or something I would like it a lot more. I only saw one repeatable sac outlet in your list offhand.
  • Land Tax is great assuming you expect to be able to trigger it. Since we got Sword of the Animist / Dowsing Dagger I started out ramping more of the non dedicated ramp decks. I often have a little heavier equipment tutor toolbox than you do though too.
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Post by bobthefunny » 8 months ago

I currently have 20 cards that make tokens in the deck, plus Idol of Oblivion and Mirrorpool, which I didn't count since they are single use. I think that might be enough to justify Anointed Procession.

I also usually prefer to play a style where I out-ramp everyone else in mono-W (usually including Rings of Brighthearth with the fetch lands, etc), but this deck I feel wants to be more aggressive, and wants to spend more mana developing threats, rather than future board state. I think Land tax helps with that in that it's an ongoing 'free' effect. If I run it, I could also consider running Scroll Rack for the combo, but just to pair with fetch lands as is, though I hesitate to go that far since Rack isn't draw on it's own, and I have no reliable way to pull them together.

I have considered the mana altar, in place of the Spawning Pit, but now that pit is out, I'm not sure where to fit it in. Turning creatures into mana is nice, but it needs to be paired with more draw than I have I think, and at that point I might be pushing too far into mid-range, and cutting into some of the explosive strength of the deck - to put people on their back feet before they get a chance to be established.

I did a bit of gold-fishing, and I'm seeing what the two of you are saying about Gift of Immortality and Angelic Renewal - I really do want a way to be more proactive with them. These might be the next cuts for Endless Atlas and either another token maker, or another pump.

---

Right now, some thoughts I'm mulling over are:
wayfarer's baubleland tax
Angelic RenewalEndless atlas
Gift of ImmortalityRetreat to Emeria? Goldnight Commander // Precinct Captain // Anointed Procession
Soul-Guide Lantern → another one of the above.
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Post by Ulka » 8 months ago

I like these upcoming changes. I love retreat to emeria personally. I know it its lackluster often but I love the body for land drop similar to the angel.


I also feel smothering isnt meant for this deck. I find smothering tithe is best suited when paired with blue or another mana hungry color.
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Post by ISBPathfinder » 8 months ago

I am hesitant to cut Soul-Guide Lantern and Aura of Silence personally as I think that both cards are kind of great in almost all situations. They are nice targets for Sun Titan and there are very few situations I have seen where either effect isn't reasonably strong.

Oketra's Monument is a card that stands out as being a bit odd for me. I would tend to want to play something like that when chaining heavier draw and low curve creature tactics. I run a few decks with cost reducers and generally speaking its almost always because I am chain casting cheap creatures which I don't get the vibe you can really do. I could really see Retreat to Emeria coming in for the monument as I really think it will do more for you than the monument.
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Post by bobthefunny » 8 months ago

ISBPathfinder wrote:
8 months ago
I am hesitant to cut Soul-Guide Lantern and Aura of Silence personally as I think that both cards are kind of great in almost all situations. They are nice targets for Sun Titan and there are very few situations I have seen where either effect isn't reasonably strong.

Oketra's Monument is a card that stands out as being a bit odd for me. I would tend to want to play something like that when chaining heavier draw and low curve creature tactics. I run a few decks with cost reducers and generally speaking its almost always because I am chain casting cheap creatures which I don't get the vibe you can really do. I could really see Retreat to Emeria coming in for the monument as I really think it will do more for you than the monument.
Yeah, that's why I'm mulling both over. Since lantern is a cantrip, it almost doesn't take a slot, and I like my grave hate, which is why I'm hesitant to cut it. That said, I usually see myself burning it for a card instead of anything else, but I also really only have goldfishing under my belt so far. I'm going to wait to decide anything on that.

Aura of Silence is great, and one of my favorite cards. My concern is that as a removal slot, it only hits one thing (outside of Sun Titan). Soltari also returns on titan, and gets continuous value, especially since he's effectively unblockable. It's also a continuous attacker for Linden. That said, as a creature he's more likely to get caught up in wipes, and can easily be picked off. He also needs to wait a turn to attack. Back to Aura of Silence, the tax effect on it is great for slowing down opponent development as well, which is fantastic for this style of deck.

Almost one of those situations where you ask if Stax elements would be good, like tanglewire or even smokestack. (- While I think they could be, given the right impetus for the deck - that's also NOT the route I want to go down.)
Ulka wrote:
8 months ago
I like these upcoming changes. I love retreat to emeria personally. I know it its lackluster often but I love the body for land drop similar to the angel.

I also feel smothering isnt meant for this deck. I find smothering tithe is best suited when paired with blue or another mana hungry color.
Retreat seems good in that line - both tokens and pump.

Smothering's effect seems ok - 3ish extra mana per turn for 'free' seems good in a deck that wants to put mana into other things... but that means it takes two full rotations to benefit.

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 8 months ago

bobthefunny wrote:
8 months ago
Smothering's effect seems ok - 3ish extra mana per turn for 'free' seems good in a deck that wants to put mana into other things... but that means it takes two full rotations to benefit.
Keep in mind that Gilded Lotus / Thran Dynamo both give you mana back the same turn, are less annoying, and are probably less likely to eat spot removal than the card promping you to ask: "did you pay for that?"

Where smothering shines in my opinion is if you need a lot of varrying colors of mana like Sisay, Weatherlight Captain. Also you can stockpile said mana for X mana spells. If you are just using it as mana production for continuous throughput I think its a little hit or miss.
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Post by bobthefunny » 8 months ago

That comparison makes sense. It's not perfect - Tithe has the slight advantage of being slightly harder to destroy, and being able to stockpile unused mana - but the mana rocks give an immediate return, and are more reliable in that your opponents can't deny them to you. Either way, I don't feel this deck wants either of those rocks, so I feel pretty good about the non-inclusion now.

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Post by Sinis » 8 months ago

Quick notes:

1. Is Mobilization really worth it? Sacred Mesa offers better returns the moment you create 3 or more tokens per turn, but it's not clear to me just how many you'll churn out when you play this. Also, flying is pretty good.

2. Might there be any attempt to unify the token types? Specifically into Soldiers or Spirits, so you can leverage Soldier-only buffs (Field Marshal, Captain of the Watch... Mobilization...) or flying/Spirit-only buffs (Sephara, Sky's Blade, Magus of the Moat).

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Post by weltkrieg » 8 months ago

Any thought given to elspeth tirel? This seems like a natural home for her. She does both lifegain and non token wrath.

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Post by Sinis » 8 months ago

Also, Harmonious Archon is probably a card that needs to be here.

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 8 months ago

Sinis wrote:
8 months ago
Also, Harmonious Archon is probably a card that needs to be here.
Personally, I would value Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite over it. I get that you get a few bodies with the Archon but I would much rather negate an opposing token deck than see who can make more bodies. The only concern which sometimes makes me pass on it is the concern of theft / clones.
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Post by bobthefunny » 8 months ago

Sinis wrote:
8 months ago
Quick notes:

1. Is Mobilization really worth it? Sacred Mesa offers better returns the moment you create 3 or more tokens per turn, but it's not clear to me just how many you'll churn out when you play this. Also, flying is pretty good.

2. Might there be any attempt to unify the token types? Specifically into Soldiers or Spirits, so you can leverage Soldier-only buffs (Field Marshal, Captain of the Watch... Mobilization...) or flying/Spirit-only buffs (Sephara, Sky's Blade, Magus of the Moat).
Mobilization initially made the cut for the Soldier Tribal, since I was noticing a lot of Soldier tokens - but I do like Sacred Mesa more. I know I have a spare copy somewhere, so when I find it, that's a likely swap, as Mesa is good.

Initially, I noticed some synergy between token types, but I feel the more important part is the free aspect on the tokens, for just continued free value. I'll definitely look some more.
weltkrieg wrote:
8 months ago
Any thought given to elspeth tirel? This seems like a natural home for her. She does both lifegain and non token wrath.
That's a really nice suggestion! I usually go with the 6 cost Elspeth since she +'s to make tokens, and can wrath immediately, but Tirel also makes a lot of tokens at once. I'll have to consider it.
Sinis wrote:
8 months ago
Also, Harmonious Archon is probably a card that needs to be here.
ISBPathfinder wrote:
8 months ago
Sinis wrote:
8 months ago
Also, Harmonious Archon is probably a card that needs to be here.
Personally, I would value Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite over it. I get that you get a few bodies with the Archon but I would much rather negate an opposing token deck than see who can make more bodies. The only concern which sometimes makes me pass on it is the concern of theft / clones.
Fair points on both of those. I'll watch tonight how my curve goes, and think about how I want my top-end to look.

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