New Format Pioneer

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Marquis
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Post by Marquis » 4 years ago

https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/a ... 9-10-21?rf

From Return to Ravnica forward

Fetches are banned.
The format will be available to build and test on Magic Online starting October 23, with premier and qualifying events starting soon thereafter. On the paper side, the format will be available for high-level play soon! Pioneer will be one of the formats at the first Players Tour Series of 2020 occurring February 1–2 and February 8–9. Additionally, the Players Tour Finals the weekend of April 25, 2020 will also utilize the format. Then, starting March 21, some tabletop qualifying events for Players Tours will start using Pioneer.
So they are giving this a lot of time to work and a lot of push.

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Post by Mookie » 4 years ago

Huh. RtR is... not where I would have predicted a new format to start. As a person that started playing during Innistrad block, I'm extremely disappointed by its exclusion, but I suppose the cutoff point has to be somewhere. I'm going to be interested to see their explanation for using it as a starting point - I would have expected Magic Origins.

Fetchland ban sounds good to me. Reduced manabase homogenization, less time shuffling, less easy graveyard fueling, and (hopefully) a lower price for entry. There are probably other cards that are going to end up banned, but I appreciate that they're giving everything a shot. Who knows - maybe Treasure Cruise will actually be fair without all the fetchlands to delve away? (I doubt it, but should be interesting to see the format evolve)

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Post by .H. » 4 years ago

Mookie wrote:
4 years ago
Fetchland ban sounds good to me. Reduced manabase homogenization, less time shuffling, less easy graveyard fueling, and (hopefully) a lower price for entry. There are probably other cards that are going to end up banned, but I appreciate that they're giving everything a shot. Who knows - maybe Treasure Cruise will actually be fair without all the fetchlands to delve away? (I doubt it, but should be interesting to see the format evolve)
Whoa, I just realized this would be a format where I can use my DDT and Deathrites? Even though Deathrite probably sucks with no Fetches.

I mean, I'm not going to actually play it most likely, but that is at least interesting in the abstract.

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Post by Rumpy5897 » 4 years ago

I was expecting a fetch reprint in ZEN3. I figured that they were consciously avoiding land type lands to pair up with them, waiting for RAV3 to sod off from standard first. They literally just put out Fabled Passage, showing they're not opposed to the idea of a fetch land existing. This announcement kills that immediately. They won't print and immediately ban a full cycle of lands in their new darling format.

I have no stake in a fetch reprint, as I have all the fetches I already need, but this is just sad.
 
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Post by Cow31337Killer » 4 years ago

Rumpy5897 wrote:
4 years ago
I was expecting a fetch reprint in ZEN3. I figured that they were consciously avoiding land type lands to pair up with them, waiting for RAV3 to sod off from standard first. They literally just put out Fabled Passage, showing they're not opposed to the idea of a fetch land existing. This announcement kills that immediately. They won't print and immediately ban a full cycle of lands in their new darling format.

I have no stake in a fetch reprint, as I have all the fetches I already need, but this is just sad.
I don't think this rules out a fetch land reprint for the Zendikar set.

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Post by Dunharrow » 4 years ago

I am surprised they are not making overlap with all that is legal on Arena. Surprised, but pleased.

Super happy they banned fetches. People had suggested starting at a later set for the new format so that Fetches would not be in it, but this makes more sense.
Surprised Felidar Guardian wasn't banned.

Decks I see dominating at first:
1. Copy Cat
2. Death Rite Shaman based Jund or Abzan value deck. Think Modern Jund meets Khans Abzan. Could see Emrakul, The Promised End being in this mix or its own deck.
3. Mono red aggro (probably creature focus, possibly goblin tribal)
4. Control with Treasure Cruise/DigThroughtime/Supreme Verdict


Personally, I just want to make Prophet of Kruphix.Dec. There is no bolt in the format!
Or do I play with Paradox Engine?


Additional thoughts:
- Without Fetches and Birds, Farseek and Mana Confluence will probably be best for 4+ color decks
- Counter magic is pretty weak. What do we play, Izzet Charm?
- efficient removal is skewed.... no Path or Bolt or Terminate
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Post by Hawk » 4 years ago

First Thought: Aw, we get a format where Dinos and Vamps are legal forever :)

Third thought: Ooooh, Rally the Ancestors combo is basically also entirely portable! Spicy!

Third thought: wow, you can basically port over UW Control! That'll be fun police for sure : /

Fourth thought: Wait oh crap CopyCat combo and Marvel-Kul Energy are both totally legal in this format as is Scapeshift Fields of the Dead. Gross gross gross.

Yeah, initial prediction is that the decks to beat are probably UGx Energy featuring Aetherworks Marvel and Emrakul, the Promised End versus Jeskai combo-control with powerful tappout control cards like the Teferis and a Felidar Guardian/Saheeli Rai combo kill finish. I actually suspect that both decks having such an easy time with maindeck Negates and being so much faster than a GolosField deck will curb that to tier 2.

Starting point:
2016 Aetherworks by Lance Austin
Approximate Total Cost:

Possible adjustments:
- This list is pre Rogue Refiner which feels like an obvious inclusion.
- The mana can be much better with shocks and Fabled Passage.
- Thrill of Possibility is a straight upgrade to Tormenting Voice.

Those are the obvious adjustments. A larger conversation and testing set-up would need to explore...

- In a world where Oko, Thief of Crowns, Llanowar Elves, Once Upon a Time, and Paradise Druid are all legal is red even necessary?

- Even if you keep red, is there an argument to drop some amount of Vessels and lands for OUAT?

- Some post-Emrakul ban versions of the deck utilized Ulvenwald Hydra to fetch Aether Hub; would a Golos, Tireless Pilgrim-empowered version of this deck be profitable?

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Post by Maluko » 4 years ago

Random hypothesis: one of the reasons they decided to create this format is because Brawl, despite all their efforts, did not take off as intended, largely because players don't want to play mini-commander in a rotating format. Thus, if Brawl ends up failing, they can try to enlarge its card pool to Pioneer, a non-rotating format. This would partially explain why Return to Ravnica was chosen as the starting set: many of the coolest legends and planeswalkers came from there.

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Post by Dusk » 4 years ago

I hope this takes off. I'm slowly piecing together what I'd like to build for this as a control player. Not having fetches is nice, as shocks are easier to come by now and all of the check lands will be legal as well, along with the allied cycle/tango lands and enemy fast/man lands. One could conclude that allied temples will be in Theros 2, giving Pioneer that full set.

Overall, will be interesting to see how it plays out. I'm just happy to be able to play Dig and Cruise again
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Post by RxPhantom » 4 years ago

I'm wonder what's going to spike now because of sheer speculation. Chandra, Torch of Defiance? Assassin's Trophy? Tireless Tracker?
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Post by CommanderMaster999 » 4 years ago

This will probably but eons more successful than brawl for sure

I call this a more fair version of modern maybe that's why they started modern legal sets in the first place so they don't throw in busted stuff into this format


It's not like the mystery booster thing involves this format.

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 4 years ago

I agree quite a bit with Jeff Hoogland on Pioneer. I think it sounds great but literally WTF are they doing to their arena client with this statement and not putting it on arena. Their consistant downplaying of historic and then this..........

As a heads up, there is some swearing in the video.

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Post by Hawk » 4 years ago

Maluko wrote:
4 years ago
Random hypothesis: one of the reasons they decided to create this format is because Brawl, despite all their efforts, did not take off as intended, largely because players don't want to play mini-commander in a rotating format. Thus, if Brawl ends up failing, they can try to enlarge its card pool to Pioneer, a non-rotating format. This would partially explain why Return to Ravnica was chosen as the starting set: many of the coolest legends and planeswalkers came from there.
That feels like it'd be fantastic to me. I'd actually be pretty pumped for Brawl:

- No rotation!
- Mana isn't terrible - every color pair has access to Command Tower, Fabled Passage, and Mana Confluence alongside their Shock, Check, and Temple. Allied pairs additionally have bicycle lands (Irrigated Farmland), reveal lands (Port Town), and Battle Lands (Prairie Stream) while enemy pairs instead have their manland (Shambling Vent), fastland (Concealed Courtyard), and painland (Caves of Koilos). That's 9 duals for any given guild deck before having to add Evolving Wilds or a guildgate, perfectly balanced currently, and goes a long way towards making any color pairing playable. Wedges have a slight edge over Shards due to the tri-lands being legal, but still it isn't bad for any deck.
- Every guild has at least 15 eligible Commanders, covering a wide range of strategies and archetypes.
- Every Wedge and Shard except Esper at least three eligible commanders, which isn't ideal but at least gives options and a variety of archetypes. (on a sidenote, it's hard to believe that Esper has had only two standard legal legends printed since RtR with Chromium, the Mutable and Alela, Artful Provocateur)

You'd need to re-ban Baral, Chief of Compliance but it seems like it'd be great.

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Post by Cow31337Killer » 4 years ago

ISBPathfinder wrote:
4 years ago
I agree quite a bit with Jeff Hoogland on Pioneer. I think it sounds great but literally WTF are they doing to their arena client with this statement and not putting it on arena. Their consistant downplaying of historic and then this..........

As a heads up, there is some swearing in the video.

The amount of time and effort it would take to program all of those sets into Arena would be substantial. Is it possible? Sure, they could work out all the bugs and stuff eventually, but it would take a while. When you take into account all that goes into it (including aesthetic stuff like graphics and animations) it's a pretty monumental task, and it's not really fair to expect them to put so many resources into a big project like that on a whim.

Also Jeff Hoogland is a garbage human don't listen to anything that guy says

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Post by Legend » 4 years ago

sfdhsa gdfsgd
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Post by NZB2323 » 4 years ago

I expect Eldrazi, Coco, and The Rock/Junk decks to be quite good.

Junk has:
However that deck would probably lose to Eldrazi and Coco.
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Post by Morganelefay » 4 years ago

The more I look at it, the more sense RtR makes. Print runs were booming around that time and it doesn't have nearly as many insane high-ticket cards as Innistrad does. It also cuts off some rather dangerous cards in LotV, Snapcaster, Cavern of Souls and a few others that could have some chokehold on a new format. It's interesting to see a new format so wide open.
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Post by RxPhantom » 4 years ago

A few thoughts after digesting this for a few hours:
Disclaimer: I haven't done a deep dive into 1 v 1 competitive formats for several years now, so feel free to laugh at any of my early, spitballin' idas.
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Post by Dunharrow » 4 years ago

Dusk wrote:
4 years ago
I hope this takes off. I'm slowly piecing together what I'd like to build for this as a control player. Not having fetches is nice, as shocks are easier to come by now and all of the check lands will be legal as well, along with the allied cycle/tango lands and enemy fast/man lands. One could conclude that allied temples will be in Theros 2, giving Pioneer that full set.

Overall, will be interesting to see how it plays out. I'm just happy to be able to play Dig and Cruise again
Original Theros is in this format.
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Post by motleyslayer » 4 years ago

I'm looking forward to this format, gives me something new to try

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Post by Dusk » 4 years ago

Dunharrow wrote:
4 years ago
Dusk wrote:
4 years ago
I hope this takes off. I'm slowly piecing together what I'd like to build for this as a control player. Not having fetches is nice, as shocks are easier to come by now and all of the check lands will be legal as well, along with the allied cycle/tango lands and enemy fast/man lands. One could conclude that allied temples will be in Theros 2, giving Pioneer that full set.

Overall, will be interesting to see how it plays out. I'm just happy to be able to play Dig and Cruise again
Original Theros is in this format.
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Post by NZB2323 » 4 years ago

RxPhantom wrote:
4 years ago
A few thoughts after digesting this for a few hours:
Disclaimer: I haven't done a deep dive into 1 v 1 competitive formats for several years now, so feel free to laugh at any of my early, spitballin' idas.
Maybe they'll reprint the ally paired fast lands.
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Post by Mookie » 4 years ago

Cards on the MTGGoldfish's Modern staple list that are sticking around:
Fatal Push, Thoughtseize, Opt, Karn, the Great Creator (slightly worse without Mycosynth Lattice), Damping Sphere (significantly worse with no Storm in the format), Collective Brutality, Teferi, Time Raveler, Once Upon a Time, Veil of Summer, Rest in Peace, Thought-Knot Seer (worse with no Eldrazi Temple in the format), Disdainful Stroke, Monastery Swiftspear, Abrade, Ceremonious Rejection, Reality Smasher, and Eidolon of the Great Revel (17 cards total).

Going through various ban lists:
Deathrite Shaman (worse without fetches), Dig Through Time (ditto), Treasure Cruise (ditto), Karn, the Great Creator (again), Monastery Mentor, Mystic Forge, Aetherworks Marvel, Smuggler's Copter, Emrakul, the Promised End, Felidar Guardian, Attune with Aether, Ramunap Ruins, Rampaging Ferocidon, Rogue Refiner, Reflector Mage.

Also: Nexus of Fate and Field of the Dead. Plus Baral, Chief of Compliance and Sorcerous Spyglass if we want to include Brawl bans.

Definitely some interesting things that will be available.

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Post by The N82O Molecule » 4 years ago

I think this is awesome. its already cool reading the speculation people are putting forth.

if you are a standard deck builder this should be great. have a khans deck that was great in its prime? well it might be good again and probably pretty simple to upgrade if there is one.

and hey guess what? they basically gave you a 100$+ coupon by banning those lands.

are we walking into a new era of magic?

and will it continue to feel underpowered (because ive felt that way recently rare wise and if this is the reason well. . .whelp)

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Post by Max Rebo » 4 years ago

I kinda hope that Super Janky decks can have a somewhat competitive place in this new format. It could be super fun.

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