Is White getting better?

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Venedrex
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Post by Venedrex » 1 year ago

I'll say this, Archivist of Oghma is the exact card I was wishing Wizard's would print earlier in this thread. Right now, IMHO, it's the best card in the set by a country mile, power level wise. Name one time White has gotten the best card in a set. Not until now. Hullbreacher usually goes to Blue or Green. Not this time. This is all players have wanted, is just for the weakest color in the game to finally get some good cards. Bravo wotc, bravo.

It's been five years, but we did it. We got the best card in the set in the weakest color. Now white is starting to resemble what Red felt like when it got impulsive draw and treasures. It's got some kick to it. Some reasons to play it or splash it other than removal. The reason there has been such an outcry is because the game becomes 20% better when 20% of the game is no longer smoking garbage.

It's not rocket science. It's like an RTS with five factions and once is worse than all the others. It hurts every aspect of the game. And you can get by with limping along with 4/5 factions, and many RTS have this problem. But it's way better to have an even playing field.

Something something, if I come on strong, it's because I care. The worst is behind us. White feels like it can bloody well compete, and has proactive threats, instead of just stax and removal.
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Dragoon
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Post by Dragoon » 1 year ago

Sinis wrote:
1 year ago
I think BAoT is really good, and I hope that retail price doesn't sustain, because I think it's a great white design with real EDH scaling at a bargain mana cost. I feel like both those cards are a leap in the right direction, and am happy to eat my pessimistic words from a couple of months ago.
My only beef with this card is that it is not tie-friendly. If two players have the highest amount of cards in hand, you don't draw. If two players have the highest amount of lands, you don't get a treasure. I think that happens more often than we realize. The card is still very nice though.
Sinis wrote:
1 year ago
I can't say I'm too thrilled by cantrip Gray Ogre|4ED; no one plays Wistful Selkie and no amount of Telecircle shenanigans are going to make me want to flicker it for a card. I'd sooner play Wall of Omens (which is cheaper and probably will have a more relevant body) or Wall of Mourning (which has a higher ceiling for card advantage).
My favourite of those effects so far is Inspiring Overseer: reasonable body, cantrip and lifegain/tribal synergy.

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PrimevalCommander
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Post by PrimevalCommander » 1 year ago

By product of white getting all these nice new toys... they are quite expensive. Eventually when we get our 3rd or 4th version of these effects, saturation will occur and prices will drop, but it seems every white card that is good in multiple archetypes is $30-$40. Though that isn't exclusive to white. Looking at my want list for a mono white deck, and I'm $100 in after 3 cards and it's not like they were cheap at any point in time. Though procrastination has meant I have been neglecting a couple strong white cards, mainly hoping they would soften a bit in price, though it never happens.

Looking forward to some real world feedback on Smuggler's Share since it reads pretty good on paper. Not sure how many opponents would bother playing around it, but I suspect not many.

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Post by NZB2323 » 1 year ago

PrimevalCommander wrote:
1 year ago
By product of white getting all these nice new toys... they are quite expensive. Eventually when we get our 3rd or 4th version of these effects, saturation will occur and prices will drop, but it seems every white card that is good in multiple archetypes is $30-$40. Though that isn't exclusive to white. Looking at my want list for a mono white deck, and I'm $100 in after 3 cards and it's not like they were cheap at any point in time. Though procrastination has meant I have been neglecting a couple strong white cards, mainly hoping they would soften a bit in price, though it never happens.

Looking forward to some real world feedback on Smuggler's Share since it reads pretty good on paper. Not sure how many opponents would bother playing around it, but I suspect not many.
Smuggler's Share does seem good, and I wouldn't play around it. You can even set it off with cards like Path to Exile, Winds of Abandon, and Secret Rendezvous.

You are right about price though, and I didn't expect it to be over $30.
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Post by Couver » 1 year ago

PrimevalCommander wrote:
1 year ago
By product of white getting all these nice new toys... they are quite expensive. Eventually when we get our 3rd or 4th version of these effects, saturation will occur and prices will drop, but it seems every white card that is good in multiple archetypes is $30-$40. Though that isn't exclusive to white. Looking at my want list for a mono white deck, and I'm $100 in after 3 cards and it's not like they were cheap at any point in time. Though procrastination has meant I have been neglecting a couple strong white cards, mainly hoping they would soften a bit in price, though it never happens.

Looking forward to some real world feedback on Smuggler's Share since it reads pretty good on paper. Not sure how many opponents would bother playing around it, but I suspect not many.
Yeah this is an issue for sure. It has been a nightmare trying to find Smuggler's Share here in Canada and it's like $50 here too if you can find it. This goes for a lot of the good white cards from the Capenna precons. But these are the early stages of them 'fixing' white's weaknesses so hopefully we start getting a range of ramp/draw options with some being cheaper/easier to get than others. I do like the direction they are taking things with white now though. Good but not grossly overpowered.

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Post by CrazyPierre » 1 year ago

White is getting better but it is still far, far too reliant on opponent synergies to gain its bonuses. This isn't too bad with something like Land Tax, where you get three lands before you draw, but having to wait until end step seems really slow. Archivist is more in line with what I want: immediate draw, some trivial, incidental life gain and an opportunity cost to opponents searching their libraries. They do need to push White some more though. Even a "counterspell" variant on Mana Tithe somehow linked to your castings of a Commander would be super sweet.

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Post by Cyberium » 1 year ago

Looks like white in this set is getting more draws base on creature/attack/token, all relevant to the color. Norn's Decree even has a political side to it.

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Post by PrimevalCommander » 1 year ago

Another good set for white in ONE. Sucks that the two chase white cards are Mythics, but maybe one day... I have decks that would use both. Also several other white cards that play on old standby cards which is nice to see.

White Sun's Twilight and Skrelv, Defector Mite and Skrelv's Hive are all playable and the Hive might be the cheapest passive token producer in white, which is cool.

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 1 year ago

PrimevalCommander wrote:
1 year ago
Another good set for white in ONE. Sucks that the two chase white cards are Mythics, but maybe one day... I have decks that would use both. Also several other white cards that play on old standby cards which is nice to see.

White Sun's Twilight and Skrelv, Defector Mite and Skrelv's Hive are all playable and the Hive might be the cheapest passive token producer in white, which is cool.
Keep in mind that when it comes to chase mythics usually waiting a few weeks after launch tends to drop their price a little. Its tough to say though because it feels like paper standard has kind of died and that impacts how many paper packs get opened. In the past commander cards would drop in price after release because the standard players would offload those cards.

I will say though I think Elesh Norn, Mother of Machines is overhyped though. I personally don't think that Panharmonicon is half as good as it gets credit for though so that might impact my point of view of that card. I think its going to be heavily meta dependent on how good cutting ETB effects off is so its really going to be in my mind limited more to decks that want Panharmonicon rather than the hate side of the card. This isn't me saying its a trash card so much as me saying I would totally sell / trade off a copy if I opened it at this price tag. I view the card as maybe $10 but probably less from my own personal perspective of worth.

Mondrak, Glory Dominus looks really good and I do think it will stay being a chase mythic. It likely still comes down from there unless the whole set turns into a train wreck of unplayable junk which I don't think it will. Generally you keep high price tags on mythics only when the rest of the set is a complete wreck. Assuming you can sell a good portion of cards in a set as a whole though you don't tend to maintain price tags with what this one is currently holding though. Cards in the past that stand out as being from a train wreck of a set would be like Jace, the Mind Sculptor and Ugin, the Spirit Dragon where they were some of very few cards that people actually wanted from their set when they initially got printed.
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Post by PrimevalCommander » 1 year ago

I agree with you on both points. Elesh Norn, Mother of Machines won't be as widespread as we think. Panharmonicon is only $5 and goes in any color, and is cheaper. I just happen to have a deck that wants both :)

Mondrak, Glory Dominus is different since Anointed Procession is expensive, and white is really good at making tokens. So this will probably be the card to get after the initial dip, as it will stand to gain considerable value in the long term. Gaining indestructible is one thing Procession can't do.

If you are paying attention you can get most new cards for a fair price before they dry up in the market. I have only had marginal success at it in recent years, but will be watching those two cards closely. The Baldur's Gate ancient metal dragons have stayed high due to the weakness of the set, which is a shame really.

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Post by PrimevalCommander » 1 year ago

I don't remember if I mentioned in this thread, but I built a mono white deck for the primary purpose of cramming all the white staples I have accumulated into a deck to see how it would go. The commander is God-Eternal Oketra for the generic white creature spam synergies. Turns out, it does really well. Ramps for days with Sword of the Animist (not white, I know) and Archaeomancer's Map. Draws cards with Tocasia's Welcome, Rumor Gatherer and Mentor of the Meek. And I'm still missing Serra Paragon, Battle Angels of Tyr, or Solitude, and Mondrak, Glory Dominus which will come in eventually.

Smuggler's Share turned out to be quite disappointing. Not worth the price I paid for the pre-con deck to get it. Tocasia's Welcome has been more consistent, if a bit lower ceiling, the floor is much higher. I like getting the card quicker, and with flash we can still get multiple cards per cycle. Works with token makers too! I still have Smuggler's in there for redundancy, but I was disappointed with it overall.

Esper Sentinel is probably worth the current price if you can tutor it or have synergy with creatures. It has done quite well for me even though I flinched when I bought it. I have not gotten to see Deep Gnome Terramancer or Archivist of Oghma much yet.

Anti-wrath tech has been one of the biggest boon's to white aggro decks in my opinion. These are the cards that stand out to me, and with so many choices, overextending into a wrath never felt so good. Grand Crescendo, Guardian of Faith, Akroma's Will, Clever Concealment, Flawless Maneuver (hope to have soon), and Teferi's Protection.

Overall I think white has gotten a lot better these past 2-3 years. I can ramp well and draw plenty of cards now. Though I did lean hard into white's color identity for my deck, which really helps. I didn't try to get too exotic with it just to see what white can do on it's own.

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pokken
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Post by pokken » 1 year ago

Deep Gnome Terramancer has been mostly some degree of bananas for me.

Other things Windshaper Planetar is amazing, and Cosmic Intervention. Also Glorious Protector is pretty nice.

You can build a really serviceable non-green land ramp deck now with White, and the anti-combat stuff is really solid for not having to wrath the board to win.

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Post by Toshi » 1 year ago

Listen, Clever Concealment is nothing short of insane!

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Post by PrimevalCommander » 1 year ago

pokken wrote:
1 year ago
Deep Gnome Terramancer has been mostly some degree of bananas for me.
Only time I have seen it was when there were no green decks at the table. I am not sure if it got me any lands that game before chumping.
My buddy played it and my brother was playing landfall and he net about 3 lands off it in short order. So I definitely see the value.

But I have had no trouble with ramping now in white, which is nice. There is a little more strategy involved in white ramp compared to green, but there are plenty of cards available that allow white to get mana that it should help non-green decks relinquish some of their dependence on artifact ramp.

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 1 year ago

pokken wrote:
1 year ago
Deep Gnome Terramancer has been mostly some degree of bananas for me.

Other things Windshaper Planetar is amazing, and Cosmic Intervention. Also Glorious Protector is pretty nice.

You can build a really serviceable non-green land ramp deck now with White, and the anti-combat stuff is really solid for not having to wrath the board to win.
I have had the same experience with Deep Gnome. I am surprised its price is as low as it is because that effect is crazy. It does have some fall off when playing against some more casual players but I am fine with that trade off because it does heavy lifting as you go against a number of more tuned decks.

Windshaper Planetar - its interesting to hear you say that. I have been encountering more and more decks that win outside of combat which makes it harder for me to go for something like this but its cool to hear about.
Toshi wrote:
1 year ago
Listen, Clever Concealment is nothing short of insane!
Its a decent card but it feels a little one dimensional to me. If wrath protection is what you want especially in a go wide deck its great it just doesn't have much other use to it. I am not saying that its bad but I want a little more flexibility out of my cards often than that. If you are in a meta with heavy sweepers though I suppose it could be really good. As you start seeing more combo strategies / less combat though sweepers tend to also fall off some too in favor of spot removal / counterspells / and just winning the game yourself faster.

I think a good comparison would be to compare this card to Flawless Maneuver. Obviously there are some differences but both cards tend to be entirely defensive and sort of one dimensional. This new effect will work against more sweeping effects but also requires you to be a little more go wide to have the convoke up.
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