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Avacyn Believer
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Post by Avacyn Believer » 1 year ago

I am torn on Rotwidow Pack, but thinking about the minimum we'd get out of the activation (which is so high in mana cost), assuming we only use it after Ishkanah ETBs, we'd have the commander, three Spooder tokens that she makes, the Pack and then one more token from the ability... so that's 6 spiders, 6 life damage to each opponent. Okay, it doesn't gain us life like the Cutthroat but it does scale up easily enough if we have more spiders on the board. So I can see playing it. It's not something you'd always want to cast and sit on the board, and definitely don't think of it as a token generator, but in the late game when you have lots of mana and could activate this twice? Yeah, I can see it as a finisher to close the game, so yay from me.

That said, I want to say nay on Silklash Spider. If this was a mono-green deck, then easy pick, but we have access to black... so all the kill spells we want. Maybe if the Silklash was cheaper to cast, and even if you reanimate it for cheap... you still have to pay like 7 mana total (X=5) to kill dragons. I can see the Silklash being great against flying Spirit token decks and such, but that feels too situational.
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Post by Dunharrow » 1 year ago

Also nay on Rotwidow. Antisynergistic and will mostly be a vanilla with reach.

I have a sotft spot for Silklash, but it is probably worse than playing some wraths. Also takes a lot of mana to kill a dragon at which point your spider has already been killed anyway.
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Post by aliciaofthevast » 1 year ago

Ohhhh whoops! I forgot to check this last night 😳

I think I also have to nay on Rotwiddow Pack. It's the kind of card we think we want on paper but in the heat of a game we're kinda embarrassed to resolve this when people are casting smothering tithe and rhystic study. It's just very low impact especially by today's standards.

Silklash is an easy yay though! Love that little guy!

I'll make the obvious pick for today uhh yesterday. Arachnogenesis.

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Post by 3drinks » 1 year ago

We're 4-3 on rotwiddow, which suggests to me there's some discussion to be had. Silklash is also a 1-2 that I could either gridlock or nay right out. I wanna read more before taking a side on that.

I think that Arachnogenesis is a yay. That's a such a hit I wanna throw multiple regrowths in to keep casting it. For today, we'll put @Dunharrow and @toctheyounger on the clock.

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Post by toctheyounger » 1 year ago

I like Silklash in mono green but I don't know that it's quite up to snuff here. The ability is a bit niche and I just wonder how often it'll be a vanilla. I'm nay for now but if we have space to fill I'd be happy to circle back to it.

Today my pick is Arasta of the Endless Web. I think most games this is what'll give us our spider numbers. So much so that I'd say it's probably worth having some sort of tutor package to make sure we can get this.
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Post by RxPhantom » 1 year ago

Look, I didn't nominate Silklash Spider because I thought it was amazing, but it's a solid spider in a deck that has at least a spider sub-theme. A lil' dedication to said theme will make this deck more fun, for me anyway.
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Post by toctheyounger » 1 year ago

Totally get it, I've had it put in good work before myself. I just wanna see how far we go down the big mana path before adding in another expensive activated ability. That's where my thoughts are. So, in that respect, maybe I'll not say nay outright, I'm happy to leave it hanging and come back to it.

edit for obvious Arachnogenesis yea.
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Post by 3drinks » 1 year ago

I'm totally for silklash, I just didn't want to gridlock that early in morning. 7 in the ass is a helluva deterrent.

Whoa, that arachnogenesis is $27? 😐

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Post by toctheyounger » 1 year ago

Arachnogenesis has dropped to that price.
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Post by 3drinks » 1 year ago

I get it, that's a big effect but man geez.

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Post by Dunharrow » 1 year ago

Yay arachnogenesis

My submission should be an easy ya - Life from the Loam
Dredge enables our commander
Might skew the manabase a bit but I think it's worth it.

EDIT: I am medium on Arasta. Double typing helps. Not sure yet.
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Post by RxPhantom » 1 year ago

Yay on Arasta, Arachnogenesis, and Loam.
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Post by Venedrex » 1 year ago

3drinks wrote:
1 year ago
I get it, that's a big effect but man geez.
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Post by Jemolk » 1 year ago

So, some further elaboration on Rotwidow Pack -- let's see if I can move the needle on it a bit. First off, yes, there is a bit of tension between a deck that wants to fill its graveyard and a card that wants to exile bits of that graveyard. However, especially later in the game when the ability makes sense to activate, we will probably have redundant creatures in the yard. Creatures that we don't care about reanimating, and which are unnecessary for delirium. The pack also makes spiders on activation, costs 2 less to activate than our commander, and drains each opponent, where Ishkanah only drains target opponent. If we ever have a large number of spiders (say, from Spider Spawning or Arachnogenesis), Rotwidow Pack becomes one of our best options for closing out the game quickly. 4 to cast and 5 to activate is steep, but if we're draining everyone for 8-10 per activation, who cares? And that's not even necessarily very hard to reach.

It's also a spider with spider synergy, which means a chance to take this deck somewhere more unique than generic goodstuff. We don't have to go all out on spider tribal like I would (if it were me building Ishkanah on my own, I'd jam Penumbra Spider in there so fast), but there are some rather strong spiders, and I'd rather go for strength through synergy where possible, rather than the boring route of merely generic Golgari aristocrats with incidental Ishkanah loops. Rotwidow Pack does not need to be independently strong in arbitrary aristocrats decks to be strong in Ishkanah even with just a spider subtheme.

Also the more all-in we go on spiders for threats, the more we're likely to be underestimated and be able to pull out a win from behind. Moderating our threat level so that we fly under the radar for most of the game is worth a lot in terms of advantage. It's how I win most of my games.

Anyway, yea to Arachnogenesis, Arasta of the Endless Web and Silklash Spider. Arasta passively generates spiders for our use and has two card types for the yard. Arachnogenesis is a fantastic fog that also leaves us a pile of bodies that synergize with our deck. And Silklash is a repeatable flier wrath, which is nuts, and also a spider.

Loam I'm less high on because it's not so interesting or unique to this deck, but it's strong and does things we need to do, so a much less excited yea.
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Post by Avacyn Believer » 1 year ago

Jemolk wrote:
1 year ago
Rotwidow Pack becomes one of our best options for closing out the game quickly. 4 to cast and 5 to activate is steep, but if we're draining everyone for 8-10 per activation, who cares?
Yes, this, glad other people see the end game potential :)

Arachnogenesis, easy yes. Even if it is pricy, I think it is one of those we can make an exception for.

Arasta of the Endless Web, also yes for me. I still remember when I first included this in a deck thinking it trigger from my spells, reading the card eh? :rofl:

Life from the Loam, I can see this being useful for sure, so yes.
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Post by 3drinks » 1 year ago

Wow at me not commenting on Arasta. It's about the closest thing we get to a Dragonlair Spider, it doesn't proc for every spell but it procs enough I think. I don't expect this to draw the nearest swords to plowshares|2ed on resolution so I think this is all of a safe pick, a non-overtly threatening pick, and a scaling pick. Can't imagine that can't make the deck.

I think Loam is a fine pick. I don't even think we need the tap cycling lands so much as just recurring ash barrens|brc, tectonic edge|exp, and Nurturing Peatland

I think the view on rotwidow is skewed heavily towards late game perceptions. Anything can close a game late when resources become exhausted. "Even squire|tsb is a forty turn clock". Rather we need to evaluate it when we draw it on t3 and how long it's dead in our hand because it's a multicolour giant spider|leb. And right now rotwidow's claim to fame is it does what the commander does for a slight mana discount...at the expense of taking a deck slot rather than being in the command zone. And unlike the commander it doesn't make a board presence on ETB. I really do think this card is a tribal trap.

Looks like Loam, Arachnogenesis, Arasta, and Silklash have been confirmed, by my count?

And for today's picks we've got @TheAmericanSpirit and myself on the clock.

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Post by TheAmericanSpirit » 1 year ago

I vote for Lolth, Spider Queen. If we can protect or grow her, she's a solid engine, and worse case scenario she makes some spiders. Very flavorful imo
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Post by Jemolk » 1 year ago

3drinks wrote:
1 year ago
I think the view on rotwidow is skewed heavily towards late game perceptions. Anything can close a game late when resources become exhausted. "Even squire|tsb is a forty turn clock". Rather we need to evaluate it when we draw it on t3 and how long it's dead in our hand because it's a multicolour giant spider|leb. And right now rotwidow's claim to fame is it does what the commander does for a slight mana discount...at the expense of taking a deck slot rather than being in the command zone. And unlike the commander it doesn't make a board presence on ETB. I really do think this card is a tribal trap.
Actually, it does what our commander does, but better, at a notable mana discount. Remember, each opponent versus target opponent, and 2 mana is a pretty substantial discount when it's being activated repeatedly. Notice I wasn't even premising my argument on having 15+ spiders, which we certainly could do following a Spider Spawning or Arachnogenesis. Rotwidow Pack could easily close things out closer to the midgame, whereas Ishkanah won't be a particularly effective way of even removing a single opponent prior to the very very late game. I'd go so far as to compare it to Purphoros in a Krenko deck. You don't forego that just because your commander is also a wincon (which, to be very clear, Krenko absolutely is if you ever get to tap him, to a far greater degree than Ishkanah). Yes, it's easier to remove. Yes, it costs mana to activate. Yes, it costs us a creature out of our yard each activation. It can still do enormous amounts of damage very quickly to the entire table in a way that Ishkanah cannot, and at a stage of the game that Ishkanah cannot. If I draw Rotwidow Pack on t3 in a spider deck, I'm very happy (assuming I'm not mana screwed), because now I know I have it I can play towards it, and by turn 7-8, I'm going to be terrorizing the table with it. Not every card needs to be amazing in a vacuum to be good.

Lolth seems great. Makes spiders, gains loyalty when we sac things, and draws cards. I definitely approve. Spiders are also great on defense, so keeping her alive shouldn't be outrageously difficult comparatively to the general case of planeswalkers in EDH. An easy yea from me.
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Post by toctheyounger » 1 year ago

Yea for Loam, solid card for delirium.

I was gonna suggest Lolth myself, though she is somewhat less arachnid producing than I remember seeing. I think she's still fine, at worst a Phyrexian Arena that distracts from our life total isn't terrible in colors that don't have a ton of options for draw. I think she gives us enough spiders to make the cut, so I'll go yea.

I think I'll recant my nay for Rotwidow Pack too. I'm certainly planning on suggesting some big mana stuff down the line, so if it's good enough for Ishkanah, it's good enough for Rotwidow. I think if it really comes down to it and we don't have the space on account of other better spiders, we can reconsider. But it does give us good options if our commander for whatever reason won't stay in play.
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Post by 3drinks » 1 year ago

I been thinking about my pick for today and I think the best all around for us here this early in, has to be Traverse the Ulvenwald.

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Post by toctheyounger » 1 year ago

3drinks wrote:
1 year ago
I been thinking about my pick for today and I think the best all around for us here this early in, has to be Traverse the Ulvenwald.
Good card, easy yes
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Post by Jemolk » 1 year ago

Traverse is nice. Helps make sure we aren't mana screwed early, and later on, it's a Worldly Tutor to hand, since we're looking to turn on delirium anyway. I'm in for that.
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Post by aliciaofthevast » 1 year ago

I'll yay Life From the Loam and Traverse! Can't believe drinks stole my next pick! 😂

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Post by Dunharrow » 1 year ago

Yay Traverse and Lolth
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Post by RxPhantom » 1 year ago

Dunharrow wrote:
1 year ago
Yay Traverse and Lolth
+1

These barely need discussion.
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