Operation Paper Tiger

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DirkGently
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Post by DirkGently » 1 year ago

This week on "Dirk tries to carefully construct a bad deck on purpose"...

@materpillar suggested an interesting idea that I'm running with - in order to create a more positive experience for Jon, I want to create a deck that will frequently become an early threat, thus letting him be part of the defensive team trying to stop me. For the next step, I want the deck to fold rather quickly and badly, to boost his confidence, but also so I can show how, despite being badly set back, I can still eventually recover and become a relevant part of the game again later.

So, a paper tiger, if you will.

My main thought was commanders that put a lot of resources into themselves, or those that grow slowly, could fit the bill nicely. So here are some of my top picks at the moment:

+1 counters and auras both feature heavily, of course, though I'm certainly open to other suggestions.

A few thoughts about other goals for the deck:

-Having a wide gap between how threatening it appears, and how quickly it can actually kill, is very desirable (in the exact reverse of what a normal deck would want, of course). I'd imagine something like Ob Nixilis, the Fallen looks pretty scary when he's hitting for 3 unavoidably every turn, and growing +3/+3 every turn, but that's still a fairly slow clock, life loss doesn't accelerate a commander damage kill, and ofc he's trivial to chump block as long as he doesn't get evasion.
-A lot of these kinda depend on how stupid I want to be in deck construction. For example, Hallar, the Firefletcher if it's just 60 kicker spells + hallar, gets absolutely annihilated if anyone decides to point removal at Hallar. But a smarter version of the deck that runs other ways to give him +1 counters more quickly and/or protection will be a lot more durable. I'd prefer to have a commander that doesn't require me to build like an idiot, but I guess it's not a deal breaker.
-I do like commanders like Vazi, Keen Negotiator that require my opponents' permission to do much of anything. Or at least I think it could be good? But it might mean that I just never actually become overly powerful, or that I end up on the 2 side of the 2v1, which is something I want to avoid. Hmm.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

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Jemolk
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Post by Jemolk » 1 year ago

An interesting idea. A few thoughts --

Kosei could easily be what you're looking for. He requires significant setup, but if he ever gets it, he rapidly becomes terrifyingly powerful, and this is regardless of what point in the game it happens. I'd refrain from running too many protection spells, lest you end up accidentally teaching the wrong lesson (if he gets blown out by a Heroic Intervention a few times, that could really be a feel-bad that reinforces to him that you just always have what it takes, for example, even if he also already sometimes wins like that, because human psychology is weird like that). This is especially relevant because if Kosei ever gets to go off for even one turn, you'll draw a whole pile of cards, making it all the more likely that you'll have the means to defend him if they're at all prominent in the deck. Recursion is another matter entirely, though, and should be useful for teaching what you want to teach, since Kosei was still answered successfully, just not permanently, and in green, you get access to the most versatile recursion spells in the game. It should also be pretty quickly apparent just how threatening he actually is if left alone. And if they don't get the point immediately, they will after a game or two.

Otherwise, the next most obvious choice is Krond, since if he ever gets to do his thing, he's also quite scary, but also can be dealt heavy setbacks fairly straightforwardly. He requires less setup than Kosei, though, and isn't as overwhelming from getting to do his thing just once. On the other hand, being on the receiving end of painful attack triggers might help reinforce the importance of declaring that you're moving to combat to your group (since I know that came up), and "exile target permanent" can be a pretty painful thing to put on an attack trigger. Combine that with vigilance and flying, and it's very rare that it would be correct to not attack with him, which also increases the threat factor. Once again, though, I'd avoid things like Heroic Intervention and Teferi's Protection in favor of recursion to avoid accidentally teaching the wrong lesson.
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TheAmericanSpirit
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Post by TheAmericanSpirit » 1 year ago

I like Olivia and Auntie blight, though Jemolk's suggestions are also solid. olivia is a crash course on the importance of spot removal, and Blight might just enable enough self-harm to allow you to be burst down with careful play.
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Ruiner
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Post by Ruiner » 1 year ago

Just gonna throw out a suggestion of Killian, Ink Duelist.

In my experience playing my deck, he comes out swinging fast, played on turn 1 or 2 and attacking the next turn. The damage can ramp up fast and you will be the early target most games, especially if you switch who you attack each turn.

You are primarily reliant upon Killian as a gameplan, but auras mean when he is removed you are hurt more than an equipment gameplan. You start from scratch every time you replay him but there are auras self-recur and other effects that can return them from the grave to get back swinging later on.

My list in my signature is probably way too strong for what you are trying to do, but you could easily weaken it by using some more janky auras.

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DirkGently
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Post by DirkGently » 1 year ago

@Jemolk @TheAmericanSpirit @Ruiner Having thought about it a little more - obviously voltron-esque strategies are well-represented in this list since voltron is very high-commitment to a single removal target. But I think the important thing to make sure it's scary while not effective is a lack of evasion. As such, I think Killian, Ink Duelist might be too effective because of his inbuilt menace, and I'm concerned about blight and olivia for similar reasons. Olivia is at least pretty slow and tends to want to use her theft ability rather than just pumping herself. But late-game she can become a lethal threat that blows blockers out the way fairly quickly with a lot of mana ramp.

Kosei could be built to not have evasion ofc. Mono-green voltron does seem really boring though. But maybe the mini-game of trying to get all three types of things could be fun?

Another issue I foresee is trying to find stuff in the deck to do without become a problem. Like I'm not sure what to put into Olivia that doesn't create issues. Building her normally, I'd focus on protecting her and/or making her pinging more effective with deathtouch etc, but those things are probably out. Ramp kinda seems like a good "I can rebuild, but slowly" thing, but if I'm ramping hard then I can go pretty bananas if she survives long enough to untap.

Looking at the Olivia, holy hell she's dropped a TON in popularity over the years, hasn't she? I swear she used to be one of the most popular commanders in the format, now she's #667. And the most popular theme is vampire tribal? That doesn't make much sense imo, if you've successfully stolen multiple creatures to where she's giving you a relevant number of additional vampires, you've already kinda done it, you don't need to pump them up - markov is clearly the superior tribal choice. Though it makes a hell of a lot more sense than the 5th most popular archetype, dinosaur tribal? Maybe the archetype detection is just jank?

edit: another thought - maybe planeswalker commanders are the ideal solution here. They're very predictable to anyone paying attention (setting aside proliferate etc) and they have an obvious inflection point where they become a big problem that must be handled. They also grow slowly (again setting aside proliferate) and can be destroyed by anyone with decent attacks. Which also means they incentivize attacking, which is generally a positive lesson I feel. Way too easy for new players to go "eek, combat is scary, I'm not going to do it unless I'm going to win the game" and avoid ever learning combat math.

other good options:

Omnath, Locus of Mana
Bruvac the Grandiloquent
Nekusar, the Mindrazer
Kyler, Sigardian Emissary
Obuun, Mul Daya Ancestor
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

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materpillar
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Post by materpillar » 1 year ago

Dihada, Binder of Wills might be kind of cool. You could just do a big pile of cool legendary creatures. Focus on stuff you can give lifelink to really inflate your life total. Huge life lead is an overly threatening thing to newer players I think.

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Jemolk
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Post by Jemolk » 1 year ago

@DirkGently -- The thing about Kosei is that he takes a fair amount of setup, and is not too hard to disrupt, but the payoff is insane. Sounded very much like what you were looking for. There's a video on MTGMuddstah's channel that showcases how hard he can go off in very few turns. The gameplay is rather poor from just about all sides in this game, mind, but it was enough to pique my interest as to what Kosei could do when I first saw it about a month ago, because the potential appears to be there. In case you're interested, here it is. Just, again, be warned, the quality of play in this particular video is very not good.
39 Commander decks and counting. I'm sure this is fine, and not at all a problem.

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DirkGently
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Post by DirkGently » 1 year ago

Having put yet MORE thought into it, my concern with a planeswalker commander is that they're typically a somewhat slow-growing threat. Less so with proliferate, but then you risk actually ulting. They're also very self-focused so it's easy to evade the attention of weak players.

Kosei is interesting but my biggest concern is that drawing cards is among the least obvious threats to weak players. Hitting everyone is cool but that only happens when he connects and we're kinda trying to avoid that.

I think the best bet is a large, non-evasive beater that grows quickly but gets reset easily. Menace or trample might work, I think flying will be too scary.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

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EonAon
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Post by EonAon » 1 year ago

Linvala, Shield of Sea Gate , Catti-brie of Mithral Hall , Narfi, Betrayer King are my commander suggestions. First off this is all sub 700 decks on EDHREC. Each brings power you dont really see too immediately (party is underrated). Linvala could be control or cloudy skies. Catta-brie is hard voltron. Narfi is zombies but not hardcore zombies or just snow with flavor.

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DirkGently
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Post by DirkGently » 1 year ago

@EonAon linvala and narfi I can't imagine becoming a threat, at least not in a reasonable time frame. I want to be the early starter that gets ganged up on and beaten down.

Catti-Brie could, and I am a fan of cheese. I do wonder what I'd do with equipment if it's not granting evasion or protection though.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

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Dunadain
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Post by Dunadain » 1 year ago

Are you sure you want to go down the voltron route?

Don't get me wrong, I love voltron decks, but people get salty pretty easily when they die to commander damage, especially, if someone removes your commander later, so they are stuck out of the game while it drags on.

If you are sure that's the route you want to go, then their are plenty of good options.

If not, however, I honestly think the new Graaz, Unstoppable Juggernaut could work very well here. Spot removal pointed at your commander will hurt just as bad as it would on a voltron commander, but you have more bodies allowing you to go wide/attack multiple targets in a turn, and you open yourself up to more forms of interaction (like artifact wipes) which would normally be a bad thing but it sounds like what your want.

just fill the rest of the deck with whatever %$#% brown token producers you can find and enough artifact ramp to make the green players blush (I know you already have all the expensive artifact ramp, otherwise this might not be such a good idea), and I imagine you'll come out the gates swinging and fold like a deck of cards to any interaction.
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Important decks: Ebondeath, Dracolich, Emiel, The Blessed, Phelddagriff
Other: Ruhan, Zask, Kellan, Liesa, Galadriel, Orca, Sauron, Thantis, Rukarumel, Sisay, Stickfingers, Safana, Thantis, Dihada

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DirkGently
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Post by DirkGently » 1 year ago

@Dunadain you convinced me. Graaz is kinda perfect tbh. Predictable, scary, but easy to answer. Also he'll hopefully teach some more intelligent timing for removal. Jon loves firing off removal immediately as soon as anything moderately threatening appears.

Plus mono-brown is a lot easier to build than anything else.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

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Dunadain
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Post by Dunadain » 1 year ago

DirkGently wrote:
1 year ago
@Dunadain you convinced me. Graaz is kinda perfect tbh. Predictable, scary, but easy to answer. Also he'll hopefully teach some more intelligent timing for removal. Jon loves firing off removal immediately as soon as anything moderately threatening appears.

Plus mono-brown is a lot easier to build than anything else.
Of course, all of my ideas are good ideas =)
All cards are bad if you try hard enough.

Important decks: Ebondeath, Dracolich, Emiel, The Blessed, Phelddagriff
Other: Ruhan, Zask, Kellan, Liesa, Galadriel, Orca, Sauron, Thantis, Rukarumel, Sisay, Stickfingers, Safana, Thantis, Dihada

Help me complete my JumpStart Cube!

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