Varina, Lich Queen - Esper Zombie Midrange

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toctheyounger
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Post by toctheyounger » 1 year ago

pzbw7z wrote:
1 year ago
Varina's looting ability facilitates many strategies but it also - in my mind at least - elevates some cards' playability. Haakon, Stromgald Scourge is the prime example. Wonder is another, if you like that sort of thing. I also wouldn't likely play Sidisi, Undead Vizier if I didn't plan to bin her every time she shows up.

Does anyone else think like this?
Sure. Master of Death, Land Tax and the Haakon package are easy pitches for Varina. Poxwalkers and Gravecrawler too as a once off. I've found this is the biggest logjam, it's very risky to be drawing more cards with her ability than you have in hand. So ones that want to be pitched, can repeatedly be pitched or benefit from being pitched are pretty pivotal.
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Post by Rframpt » 1 year ago

pzbw7z wrote:
1 year ago
Varina's looting ability facilitates many strategies but it also - in my mind at least - elevates some cards' playability. Haakon, Stromgald Scourge is the prime example. Wonder is another, if you like that sort of thing. I also wouldn't likely play Sidisi, Undead Vizier if I didn't plan to bin her every time she shows up.

Does anyone else think like this?
As someone who also plays Varina with more target reanimations spells I have found that cards like Sidisi, Undead Vizier and other cards with great ETB's are useful when you pitch them and then reanimate them with Animate Dead or Necromancy, The bonus is that these two enchantments can be brought back with Sevinne's Reclamation

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Post by pzbw7z » 1 year ago

Rframpt wrote:
1 year ago
pzbw7z wrote:
1 year ago
Varina's looting ability facilitates many strategies but it also - in my mind at least - elevates some cards' playability. Haakon, Stromgald Scourge is the prime example. Wonder is another, if you like that sort of thing. I also wouldn't likely play Sidisi, Undead Vizier if I didn't plan to bin her every time she shows up.

Does anyone else think like this?
As someone who also plays Varina with more target reanimations spells I have found that cards like Sidisi, Undead Vizier and other cards with great ETB's are useful when you pitch them and then reanimate them with Animate Dead or Necromancy, The bonus is that these two enchantments can be brought back with Sevinne's Reclamation
I have not tried Animate Dead or any of it's ilk yet, mostly I rely on Living Death and Zombie Apocalypse for reanimation outside of the recurable fellows. Lord of the Undead and Unholy Grotto are available, but they aren't really for this purpose, they are more for the occasional [card]Gray Merchant of Asphodel or Fleshbag Marauder abuse.

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Post by pzbw7z » 1 year ago

toctheyounger wrote:
1 year ago
pzbw7z wrote:
1 year ago
Varina's looting ability facilitates many strategies but it also - in my mind at least - elevates some cards' playability. Haakon, Stromgald Scourge is the prime example. Wonder is another, if you like that sort of thing. I also wouldn't likely play Sidisi, Undead Vizier if I didn't plan to bin her every time she shows up.

Does anyone else think like this?
Sure. Master of Death, Land Tax and the Haakon package are easy pitches for Varina. Poxwalkers and Gravecrawler too as a once off. I've found this is the biggest logjam, it's very risky to be drawing more cards with her ability than you have in hand. So ones that want to be pitched, can repeatedly be pitched or benefit from being pitched are pretty pivotal.
While I haven't tried Master of Death yet, I did find a copy last Friday. Someone had left it on a table, I guess it has a pretty narrow application. :) He would get on well with Tormod, the Desecrator whom I've grown quite fond of. I hadn't considered that one could just hold on to him and repeatedly bin him. That's clever.

Obviously, playing Ad Nauseam would require a little re-think of my strategy; the too-big-to-cast, just-bin-them cards would have less appeal, but I'm not going that hard yet.

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Post by pokken » 1 year ago

I do think dread return is probably underplayed. Discardable and huge tempo. Should likely come before other reanimates I think

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Post by pzbw7z » 1 year ago

pokken wrote:
1 year ago
I do think dread return is probably underplayed. Discardable and huge tempo. Should likely come before other reanimates I think
Dread Return is in the maybe board. I'm aware of one good trick - involving Repository Skaab - but I need to get up to speed with what else it can do.

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Post by pokken » 1 year ago

pzbw7z wrote:
1 year ago
Dread Return is in the maybe board. I'm aware of one good trick - involving Repository Skaab - but I need to get up to speed with what else it can do.
Intuition package for two combo creatures and dread return is probly the most obvious I think. It can be more mana efficient than sevinne's. And you can do it plus sevinne's plus combo creature when you already binned a combo dude.

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Post by pzbw7z » 1 year ago

Intuition would definitely elevate the deck. :pensive: :( :cry:

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Post by Reya » 1 year ago

pokken wrote:
1 year ago
I do think dread return is probably underplayed. Discardable and huge tempo. Should likely come before other reanimates I think
What are your usuals plays including Dread Return ? At first sight it seems not so strong. Do you combo often thanks to it ?

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Post by pokken » 1 year ago

Reya wrote:
1 year ago
What are your usuals plays including Dread Return ? At first sight it seems not so strong. Do you combo often thanks to it ?
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The most common thing is to fill out an intuition package for a combo creature when sevinne's is used. It behaves like Unburial Rites but is sometimes free. I almost always have expendable creatures I can use to cast it for free, so people hesitate to bin it, then I get two animates.

If I have an altar in hand I'll usually go for Dread Return + the two missing pieces of my combo. This forces them to give me Dread Return (since the combo pieces are cheaper).

Many of our combo pieces can be used to cast Dread Return for a discount, e.g. Gravecrawler, so it's more mana efficient than Sevinne's Reclamation.

Intuition for Sevinne's Reclamation outperforms when you need to reanimate an altar, but if you have an altar dread return is cheaper.

You can do the same thing with Reanimate + Animate Dead + creature, but only Sevinne's Reclamation and Dread Return (and Unburial Rites) let you force two combo creatures on one intuition.

You almost always have creatures for return because you go for it when you have Varina + Gravecrawler or something, you even get a discount if you make a zombie with Varina to make the third creature, but you usualy have a third crappy creature to sac.

example sequence I did last:
With an altar in hand, you can intuition for Gravecrawler Wayward Servant and Dread Return. You attack, discard dread return to Varina, cast Gravecrawler and flashback Dread Return for servant. Cast altar and GGs.

You can do the same with Sevinne's Reclamation but it costs 3-5 mana more depending on how they give you the package

That package with Sevinne's Reclamation Gravecrawler and Wayward Servant they can put gravecrawler in hand and force you to spend 5 mana on Sevinne's Reclamation to get your servant.

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Post by toctheyounger » 1 year ago

pzbw7z wrote:
1 year ago
toctheyounger wrote:
1 year ago
pzbw7z wrote:
1 year ago
Varina's looting ability facilitates many strategies but it also - in my mind at least - elevates some cards' playability. Haakon, Stromgald Scourge is the prime example. Wonder is another, if you like that sort of thing. I also wouldn't likely play Sidisi, Undead Vizier if I didn't plan to bin her every time she shows up.

Does anyone else think like this?
Sure. Master of Death, Land Tax and the Haakon package are easy pitches for Varina. Poxwalkers and Gravecrawler too as a once off. I've found this is the biggest logjam, it's very risky to be drawing more cards with her ability than you have in hand. So ones that want to be pitched, can repeatedly be pitched or benefit from being pitched are pretty pivotal.
While I haven't tried Master of Death yet, I did find a copy last Friday. Someone had left it on a table, I guess it has a pretty narrow application. :) He would get on well with Tormod, the Desecrator whom I've grown quite fond of. I hadn't considered that one could just hold on to him and repeatedly bin him. That's clever.

Obviously, playing Ad Nauseam would require a little re-think of my strategy; the too-big-to-cast, just-bin-them cards would have less appeal, but I'm not going that hard yet.
Honestly that synergy is straight from @plaganegra. I'd have never tried Master as discard fodder if it hadn't been suggested.

Ad Naus isn't terrible to be honest. Remember we have lifegain in the command zone and at least 2 of our aristocrats gain us life too. Whenever I've cast it I've had like bare minimum 20 odd cards drawn, if not a great deal more. I think there's an inherent risk in basing too much of your deck around it purely because everyone knows you swing at the ad Naus player, but having it in the deck is a net positive to me.

That said, Plumb the Forbidden is quite often a mini Naus too. That card is pretty crazy in a lot of scenarios. Paired with Headless Rider : chef's kiss.
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Post by pzbw7z » 1 year ago

toctheyounger wrote:
1 year ago
Ad Naus isn't terrible to be honest.
Understatement of the century?

I don't know if it would just win for me the way it does in Prosper without major tuning, but it's still a bomb.
toctheyounger wrote:
1 year ago

That said, Plumb the Forbidden is quite often a mini Naus too.
I so need to get a copy.

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Post by toctheyounger » 1 year ago

pzbw7z wrote:
1 year ago
toctheyounger wrote:
1 year ago
Ad Naus isn't terrible to be honest.
Understatement of the century?

I don't know if it would just win for me the way it does in Prosper without major tuning, but it's still a bomb.
toctheyounger wrote:
1 year ago

That said, Plumb the Forbidden is quite often a mini Naus too.
I so need to get a copy.
It won't, most likely. But there's a pretty good chance it helps you assemble your line a damn sight easier. I just find because a lot of the better lines we have need 2-3 pieces it pays to just dig for them. I mean worst case scenario you get a yard full of critters for reanimation or Stairwell so it kinda just speeds things up.

And yes, you really do need a copy of Plumb. The card is that good.
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Post by pokken » 1 year ago

ad naus is basically a bad Intuition in most builds of this deck. It's riskier and costs more mana and accomplishes about the same hting (finds you 1-2 missing combo pieces).

Generally I think because of the lack of critical mass of fast mana that it's going to underperform Necropotence at a high enough rate that it should not be played in most builds that aren't purely focusing on combo. As a midrange "pay 10 draw 5" spell it's just needlessly expensive and target-painting.

For me the rubric for ad naus is if you're playing Dark Ritual and Lotus Petal it's probably good. otherwise stick to Fact or Fiction which is a mana cheaper and so massively helps fixing your draws.

I have a very strong bias toward the early game sequencing however, in this deck, because once Varina is online she fixes everything. So YMMV. Me, I play Epiphany at the Drownyard in that slot because I can use it as a 2, 3, 4 or 15 drop. Every little thing you can do to fix your opening hands is huge in making sure you're in every single game.

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Post by toctheyounger » 1 year ago

pokken wrote:
1 year ago
ad naus is basically a bad Intuition in most builds of this deck. It's riskier and costs more mana and accomplishes about the same hting (finds you 1-2 missing combo pieces).

Generally I think because of the lack of critical mass of fast mana that it's going to underperform Necropotence at a high enough rate that it should not be played in most builds that aren't purely focusing on combo. As a midrange "pay 10 draw 5" spell it's just needlessly expensive and target-painting.

For me the rubric for ad naus is if you're playing Dark Ritual and Lotus Petal it's probably good. otherwise stick to Fact or Fiction which is a mana cheaper and so massively helps fixing your draws.
All of this is true. Honestly I'd rather Intuition but outside of a proxy it ain't gonna happen for me. Not unless I win the lottery sometime soon. It can't be denied, though, Intuition choosing Sevinne's Reclamation and your choice of lines is incredibly strong.

I'm ok with all of that, but yeah, Ad Naus does sort of force a specific play pattern to some extent; you want rituals, you want low cost rocks (Ideally sticking with Ad Naus I would want Lotus Petal, Chrome Mox, Mox Diamond and Culling the Weak as well as Dark Ritual), and you want to go off pretty quickly afterwards. It's not the sort of card you resolve and try to win with combat following.

I'm pretty ok with it in the list myself, even though mine is definitely not optimised to make the best use of it. That said I have an Entomb and Enlightened Tutor on the way, so those will really help with giving me a few more efficient and varied lines to assemble a win. They're a lot more suited to this sort of list for both mana efficiency and playing into Varina's filtering.
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Post by Reya » 1 year ago

pokken wrote:
1 year ago
Reya wrote:
1 year ago
What are your usuals plays including Dread Return ? At first sight it seems not so strong. Do you combo often thanks to it ?
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The most common thing is to fill out an intuition package for a combo creature when sevinne's is used. It behaves like Unburial Rites but is sometimes free. I almost always have expendable creatures I can use to cast it for free, so people hesitate to bin it, then I get two animates.

If I have an altar in hand I'll usually go for Dread Return + the two missing pieces of my combo. This forces them to give me Dread Return (since the combo pieces are cheaper).

Many of our combo pieces can be used to cast Dread Return for a discount, e.g. Gravecrawler, so it's more mana efficient than Sevinne's Reclamation.

Intuition for Sevinne's Reclamation outperforms when you need to reanimate an altar, but if you have an altar dread return is cheaper.

You can do the same thing with Reanimate + Animate Dead + creature, but only Sevinne's Reclamation and Dread Return (and Unburial Rites) let you force two combo creatures on one intuition.

You almost always have creatures for return because you go for it when you have Varina + Gravecrawler or something, you even get a discount if you make a zombie with Varina to make the third creature, but you usualy have a third crappy creature to sac.

example sequence I did last:
With an altar in hand, you can intuition for Gravecrawler Wayward Servant and Dread Return. You attack, discard dread return to Varina, cast Gravecrawler and flashback Dread Return for servant. Cast altar and GGs.

You can do the same with Sevinne's Reclamation but it costs 3-5 mana more depending on how they give you the package

That package with Sevinne's Reclamation Gravecrawler and Wayward Servant they can put gravecrawler in hand and force you to spend 5 mana on Sevinne's Reclamation to get your servant.
Maybe it's time to swap Zombie Apocalypse for Dread Return. Your inputs make me want to give a try to the card. Zombie Apocalypse is by far the worst reanimation spell we have, can be an arguable cut. We have already three others cheaper options for bringing back our team.

My actual problem is: I can't remove Black Market Connections. I'm confident about the card being great but it does nothing the turn it comes out.

Someone else gave a try to the market ?

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Post by skuba » 1 year ago

Some question @pokken , why do you play Nantuko Husk and Phyrexian Ghoul? For board control? anti exil? or do I miss stategy with this cards? I mean ofc its an sac outlet but with no mana abilitys.
So theres ofc no loop. Do you use it also for some "little" loops over the game?

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Post by toctheyounger » 1 year ago

I could be wrong, but I believe they're in the list for sac outlets and to dominate combat. I can see them pairing real nicely with Skullclamp too.
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Post by pokken » 1 year ago

Reya wrote:
1 year ago
Maybe it's time to swap Zombie Apocalypse for Dread Return. Your inputs make me want to give a try to the card. Zombie Apocalypse is by far the worst reanimation spell we have, can be an arguable cut. We have already three others cheaper options for bringing back our team.
to be honest I am starting to think about cutting bidding *and* apocalypse, the percentage of the time they are worse than Unburial Rites is high.

Dread Return is not a perfect card and you will lose games not having another mass reanimation. But you should win games by reanimating a combo piece for free (plus it's another card that's +1 card for Varina).

I think trying it in place of ZA makes sense.

(and subsequently I talk myself out of cutting too many mass reanimates, probaly good idea to add Mystical Tutor for me :P
Reya wrote:
1 year ago
My actual problem is: I can't remove Black Market Connections. I'm confident about the card being great but it does nothing the turn it comes out.

Someone else gave a try to the market ?
It doesn't sequence well into Varina so I won't touch it. it makes dudes that can attack the turn after Varina comes into play, spending your 3 drop mana.
skuba wrote:
1 year ago
Some question @pokken , why do you play Nantuko Husk and Phyrexian Ghoul? For board control? anti exil? or do I miss stategy with this cards? I mean ofc its an sac outlet but with no mana abilitys.
So theres ofc no loop. Do you use it also for some "little" loops over the game?
There are a few things my build of the deck struggles to win through:
1) having certain key cards exiled (Wayward Servant / Corpse Knight / Gravecrawler for example
2) Losing Varina, Lich Queen to a Gilded Drake or some other control magic effect.

Both of these things make me want critical mass of sac outlets. Now, adding to that, I have some nasty loops that don't require infinite mana in the deck--

example: Cosmic Intervention + Repository Skaab + Gray Merchant of Asphodel -- only works if you can get both of them dead! But if you can do it, you can kill people dead by doubling up with intervention triggers in one turn then doing it again the next turn.

Sometimes you just need to sac your entire board and mass reanimate to win, too :) Skullclamp also wants a sac outlet sometimes (if you're sac'ing x/2s).

the other benefit is that they can really play hell with combat math. I've killed someone dead with them not respecting getting husked for 18, then me sac'ing my board and garying everyone out with a mass reanimation. When you swing with your team and a Husk, you can often divide the attackers in such a way that people have to do what you want. So in a way they act like partial evasion effects.

Example scenario: you swing with varina, husk, and two fodder creatures. Opponent has a 3/3 they care about that would kill husk, but they cannot safely block because you will sac a 1-drop and punish them. Opponent is forced to block one of the fodders, you sac it and push 2 more damage through while still getting your attack trigger with everybody. (this gets really rude when you have, say, 8 creatures :P).

With multiplayer you can send the husk at a guy with a 3/3, send all your fodder at someone else, and send Varina at someone else. etc. Bottom line you can have more good attacks more of the time, and without drawing as much aggro by focus firing when all you really want to do is draw the cards and don't care *that* much about the damage.

But the main thing is, I need need critical mass of sac outlets to be safe playing in the mid-game. If I could play 2 more copies of Carrion Feeder that would be preferred, but no such luck :) IMHO critical mass is around 8 effective outlets (which with 3-4 tutors and 5 outlets I have)

I could see cutting one maybe? But for me having them has been nice. They're super good for mass reanimations.

p.s. husk also doesn't draw the kinda hate that Phyrexian Altar does so you can just run it out and not worry too much.

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Post by toctheyounger » 1 year ago

pokken wrote:
1 year ago
But the main thing is, I need need critical mass of sac outlets to be safe playing in the mid-game. If I could play 2 more copies of Carrion Feeder that would be preferred, but no such luck IMHO critical mass is around 8 effective outlets (which with 3-4 tutors and 5 outlets I have)
I'd agree with this, I find I often don't have them when I need them. Maybe I need copies of these two. Aside: did you ever end up getting on Altar of Dementia? How did that play out if so?
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Post by pokken » 1 year ago

toctheyounger wrote:
1 year ago
pokken wrote:
1 year ago
But the main thing is, I need need critical mass of sac outlets to be safe playing in the mid-game. If I could play 2 more copies of Carrion Feeder that would be preferred, but no such luck IMHO critical mass is around 8 effective outlets (which with 3-4 tutors and 5 outlets I have)
I'd agree with this, I find I often don't have them when I need them. Maybe I need copies of these two. Aside: did you ever end up getting on Altar of Dementia? How did that play out if so?
I didn't remember to lol. I am sure it would be great.

It's tough to find room for non zombies tho

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Post by skuba » 1 year ago

the new card vat of rebirth is kinda perfect, isn't it? Image.
I personally rly looking forward for this card!

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Post by pokken » 1 year ago

Not a zombie. The bar for non zombies is teferis ageless insight. I'm not playing that and it's super good. Hammy archive too

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Post by pzbw7z » 1 year ago

Vat of Rebirth seems like a perfectly playable, perhaps fun card that could occasionally do something valuable. It's an uncommon in a major release so there's very little risk in testing it. It is new, and it is different and these are things that have value in casual Commander play.

That said, it's probably not in the top 99 of cards available for Zombie tribal in the Esper color range.

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Post by toctheyounger » 1 year ago

Yeah, this is a bit of a slow one for me, unfortunately. In the right place it'll do cool things, I just don't think this is the right place. If we had ways to untap it for multiple uses in a turn we'd be talking a different story, but alas.

That said this reminds me that I never did a set review of any sort for ONE. Honestly, for me, there's absolutely nothing from this set for me. I think I'll save the fancy formatting and say that across all of my decks I think there's maybe 2 or 3 cards total that I'm into, and none of them are destined for Varina.

If anyone else picked up anything they thing could be worthwhile feel free to shout it out for discussion.
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