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wizyard
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Post by wizyard » 1 year ago

great jorb, netn10!

solid showing this month, everyone

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Post by RattingRots » 1 year ago

bravelion83 wrote:
1 year ago
I couldn't know that, sorry. You can absolutely still post your own card though, in fact I'd really like to see it.
Oh yeah, no worries. Just a "great minds think alike" moment.

I'm still going to submit mine but I have to tweak a bunch of things with my card - they're pretty different executions so it's not a problem or anything.
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Post by folding_music » 1 year ago

I think designs that tone down Phyrexian mana are the biggest turn-off in custom cards recently >:3 just let them be powerful with none of this "if X was spent" amelioration imo

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Post by Rithaniel » 1 year ago

Riria wrote:
1 year ago
That is definitely an interesting perspective. It's pretty much... the polar opposite of mine? I pretty much see punisher effects as a trade: you give up some agency in exchange for more power than you'd expect at the mana cost (incidentally, I see normal modal cards like charms in reverse: you give up some power for more agency). So if a punisher effect had truly equal options, it couldn't justify milking the extra power, and it would defeat the purpose?
Well, I think I would agree with your PoV. Like, "target creature's controller sacrifices it" should cost more than "target player sacrifices a creature." The second option loses agency in exchange for speed, which is a form of "power." Here, we just agree.

The thing I'm saying is that incorporating choice should be done to increase the fun-factor of the designs. Like, if you had, for example, a card like this:
Calamity of Numbers
Sorcery S
Choose one—
  • Target creature's controller sacrifices it.
  • Target player sacrifices two creatures.
I would say that this is going to be a bad "give options to your opponent" design, because it clearly has best use cases. It's not really a design with any choice involved. It's a number's game. On the other hand, what if you had something like this?
Calamity of Poxes
Sorcery S
For each player, that player chooses a nonland permanent type and then each of that player's opponents sacrifices a permanent of that type. Each opponent who didn't sacrifice a permanent this way discards a card and loses 1 life.
This gives nontrivial choices, and, while it still can have best options, it's not clear-cut when you will have those best options or what they will be. The card itself introduces a quick minigame that has it's own strategies involved. It's fun.
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Post by Riria » 1 year ago

Yeah, I do see your point much better now that you gave an example, and I'm inclined to agree. (I do think Calamity of Poxes is a bad design because it incurs massive color bleed into black's normative inability to deal with artifacts, but that's beside the point, it *is* a good example of interesting implementation of a punisher-type mechanic)

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Post by Rithaniel » 1 year ago

folding_music wrote:
1 year ago
thanks to the various people who run this game but it just ain't a satisfying format, the votes and their rationale are just one big window into madness, eg, bravelion above explicitly punishing netn10 for trying something experimental
I can definitely get that. It's a format where people have to vote every single day, after all, and, often times, it's difficult to evaluate a half dozen cards fully and accurately enough that you vote for the "best option." So, you have to have rules of thumb to help you make quicker decisions. Each person's rules are going to be different, too. Like, I don't vote for designs that use mechanics from the most recent sets (it feels too much like being in lock-step behind other designers). Leo rules out cards based on formatting errors. Another person might avoid voting for cards that aren't "unique enough," and someone else might rule out cards that are "too unique."

It's practically impossible to make a card that will satisfy everyone's individual rules. So, the point kinda becomes "just have fun and make cards that you would vote for."
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Post by Riria » 1 year ago

I often make cards that I wouldn't personally vote for. I have, so to speak, a dual personal relationship with player types. Usually, I'm a Spike-Melvin, I'm excited about cards that are powerful (as long as they're not so overpowered as to strain credulity) and interesting, but the power comes first. So I will vote for an excitingly powerful card even if it's not the most mechanically interesting on the day, as long as it's at least *somewhat* mechanically interesting. But when *I* make cards, I'm more of a Melvin-Spike, I prioritize the exploration of design space over impact.

That's the primary reason I sometimes make cards I wouldn't vote for. There's also a secondary reason, namely that when I submit cards that are meant to be part of a cycle, I commit myself to finishing the cycle, even when I don't feel particularly inspired for one of the slots/color combinations.

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Post by Venedrex » 1 year ago

I try to vote the same way I try to make custom cards.

I look at a card and go, is this something I could see being printed at some point?

So, does it have errors, does it break the color pie, does it fill a role in a set or product.

A lot of times I see cards that break the color pie, and don't seem to have any clear purpose.
I know some people enjoy speculative designs, and to an extent I like pushing boundaries, but I personally won't vote for cards that don't seem to have a reason to exist other than, because it hasn't been done before. Like, Abzan enchantment commander hasn't been done before and is interesting.

An instant that counters itself isn't. That's an extreme example, but you get what I mean.

As far as the cards I make are concerned, I'll be the first to admit some of my cards are absolutely stupid and bad. I mean, I lost in the final round of an MCC with a horrible design because I failed to do what I just described, I designed a card that didn't have any reason to exist. (Still kicking myself for that) It literally was a card no one would have wanted. So, I'm definitely guilty of breaking my own rules. But it was mostly because I was trying so hard to be unique, I ended up making something that wasn't practical.

So I think it's a balancing act. Because I get that as a designer you don't want to just make another 2 mana 2/2. We have to find the space that is practical but also fresh and exciting and that can be tricky. At the risk of sounding utterly sanctimonious, I think custom card design is like all creative endeavors. We want to push boundaries, but not leave behind the very people we are designing for. The clash between the familiar and comforting versus the exciting and Avant Garde.
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Post by Riria » 1 year ago

Venedrex wrote:
1 year ago
I look at a card and go, is this something I could see being printed at some point?

So, does it have errors, does it break the color pie, does it fill a role in a set or product.
This might be a hot take, but that's funnily enough too *permissive* for me.

I mean specifically in the sense of "Would this be printable given the extent to which it breaks the color pie". In my personal opinion, real, legitimate Magic cards, already often color bleed more than I think is acceptable. And I'm not talking about old stuff like Prodigal Sorcerer, but some of the new cards too. I understand that powercreep needs to happen to some degree, but I prefer it when powercreep makes the colors taller rather than wider, if that makes any sense. So I still vote based on more conservative color lines, and dock points from cards that are technically perfectly printable.

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Post by Venedrex » 1 year ago

Riria wrote:
1 year ago
Venedrex wrote:
1 year ago
I look at a card and go, is this something I could see being printed at some point?

So, does it have errors, does it break the color pie, does it fill a role in a set or product.
This might be a hot take, but that's funnily enough too *permissive* for me.

I mean specifically in the sense of "Would this be printable given the extent to which it breaks the color pie". In my personal opinion, real, legitimate Magic cards, already often color bleed more than I think is acceptable. And I'm not talking about old stuff like Prodigal Sorcerer, but some of the new cards too. I understand that powercreep needs to happen to some degree, but I prefer it when powercreep makes the colors taller rather than wider, if that makes any sense. So I still vote based on more conservative color lines, and dock points from cards that are technically perfectly printable.
Well, I mean, I specifically said break, not bleed. If you go off of bleeds, boy, you are in for a tough time. Unearth is a bleed, Connive is a bleed, Blitz is a bleed, I mean, I'm not really concerned that once in a blue moon for a major set mechanic white gets to loot, or red gets to draw.

To me personally the color pie has been getting better and better as time has gone on. Up until recently blue had the ability to destroy creatures. Sure you got a 1/1 bird out of the deal, but because of this, blue has better removal than black in EDH. Whoopsie. That's a break, and a format is worse off because of it IMHO.

I agree with you about power creep, though, I think. I want colors to have defined lanes and for power levels to not go crazy. And I understand that new cards aren't always better in color pie than old cards. The Phasing of Zhalfir is bad design, but now it's out of pie. They just didn't catch it in time.

Also, look at cards like this Wicked Wolf. Is wicked wolf a break? Green gets to fight, and this a creature that fights on etb. But, the thing is, wicked wolf is in many cases, almost a ravenous Chupacabra. So now R&D is pulling back from etb fight a little bit. So what I'm getting at is, it can be hard for designers to keep up with the constant shifting of the pie, even Wotc doens't get it right all the time. But we do are best, and we try to use good judgement. And things will always change.

And when you are making big changes, it can be hard to know where to draw the line. All the green card drawn engines starting from Beast Whisperer and going to The Great Henge, might be all fine and in pie by themselves (although now I think Simic is where that effect has gone), but when you combine them all together in eternal formats like EDH, they give Green an incredible amount of card draw. So Wotc even has to consider the cumulative effect of things that are in pie.

Recently, black is now destroying enchantments. Mire in Misery has led to Invoke Despair. I personally think this a fine change, but it has interesting ramifications. For a while they were restricting it to only destroying enchantments your opponents control, but then they decided that you destroy your own enchantments because they don't really print enchantments that you'd want to destroy that you control anymore.

All my dumb rambling to say, I think the color pie is described best as a living thing. It changes and evolves as time goes on, hopefully for the better, but sometimes for the worse.
Last edited by Venedrex 1 year ago, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Riria » 1 year ago

I'm not saying that I expect R&D to do significantly better than they currently are, their task is very hard and they are doing a very good job on average.

My point is that printability doesn't dynamically alter my color pie-based rating of cards. The fact that The Phasing of Zhalfir now exists does not make me judge custom blue cards any differently.

Btw, I don't actually... hate Wicked Wolf? I don't like it, but it feels more like a bleed than a break to me. This is especially since green has had non-fight unilateral damage like Ambuscade for ages, at common, and it's still being printed, and its ability combination feels sort of like that.
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Post by Venedrex » 1 year ago

Riria wrote:
1 year ago
I'm not saying that I expect R&D to do significantly better than they currently are, their task is very hard and they are doing a very good job on average.

My point is that printability doesn't dynamically alter my color pie-based rating of cards. The fact that The Phasing of Zhalfir now exists does not make me judge custom blue cards any differently.
Absolutely, but for me, Tocasia's Welcome makes me judge white cards differently. And that's not to say your method is wrong or mine is right. I mean, I think sometimes the players know better than wotc what needs to change or what the color pie should be. At the end of the day, I think our gut instinct as players is worth more than a million articles on the mothership. We are the consumers of the content, which makes us really good at knowing what it should look like. We might not always know how to achieve it, but we know it when we see it.

Edit, for sure, I agree with you about wicked wolf. I don't hate it that much either, I just used it as an example of how an effect that is in pie, when made hyper efficient can begin to resemble something that a color shouldn't have access to.
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Post by Riria » 1 year ago

One thing I will admit is that when a color pie extension becomes baked into mtgnexus, as in, it happens in printed cards, then it starts happening in custom card creation/contests, then everyone becomes okay with it, that is when I feel like it's not a hill worth dying on and conform. One example of this I can think of is impulsive draw. I still think they shouldn't have given that to red, I still think it's not appropriate as a red mechanic, I'm still never going to personally make a custom card which is monored and has impulsive draw, but I have completely stopped docking other people's cards for that.

Edit: Yeah, at the end of the day color pie rules are mostly a balance factor, and it only becomes an issue if a color can do something they shouldn't if they can do it efficiently. Blue obviously has access to Scour from Existence, which is as off-pie as you can possibly imagine, but it's okay because Scour from Existence is underpowered.
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Post by RattingRots » 1 year ago

wizyard wrote:
1 year ago
Thoughtstream
Instant (U)
Overflow (Each card with overflow you include in your deck while deck building increases your minimum deck size by one card.)
Draw two cards.
I think this mechanic would be more interesting if it made you run something like 2 extra cards in your deck instead of 1. The issue is that if you take a 60 card deck with 20 lands and 40 spells and add 4 of this card for example with the same mana ratio, you now have a total of 21 lands and 43 spells or 22 lands and 42 spells. So that means you actually get to cut your 1 or 2 worst non-overflow spell and add 4 overflow spells. As a result I think it basically unambiguously improves the quality of your average spell. So IMO you'd want to have the cards force you to add multiples to your minimum deck size so that it's a deckbuilding decision as opposed to a freeroll.
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Post by wizyard » 1 year ago

that's a good point

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Post by Rithaniel » 1 year ago

On the topic of "reducing minimum deck size" cards: While I think the design space is really interesting and potentially fun to design around, thinking about it, I've decided that it's too universally useful. There is no deck that wouldn't be improved by having less RNG in card draws, and so every deck would want to run as many deck size reducers as possible. So, the cards become necessary to play the game, if you want to play competitively. It's a dangerous mechanical space as a result.

On the topic of the color wheel: in my mind, color is mostly driven by flavor. The way mechanics are split up between the colors are mainly there to give each color a style. It's a major thing when it comes to custom card creation not because it's truly important for game design or balance, but because it's a major part of the style that is "MtG." As such, if we wanted to take the color wheel and toss it, that's entirely valid, and cards wouldn't necessarily suffer, but then they wouldn't really be "MtG cards," anymore. However, with that in mind, it's valid to bend the mechanics within a color, provided we keep the spirit, general strategy, and flavor of the color intact.
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Post by Riria » 1 year ago

I used to have a zero-Vorthos full-Melvin mentality when it came to colors, but I came around to it over time. I still think the primary purpose of the color pie is mechanical (more specifically, I think colors should have things they cannot do such that if you want your deck to do those things, you will have to make your landbase slower/more painful/more inconsistent in exchange for the versatility). But I accept these days that there are things which have *essentially* zero balance implications that would still hurt a card design. For example, blue gets flying very easily and without having to pay much of a tax in terms of mana, so it wouldn't break blue in any meaningful sense to give it a card with reach, but we still shouldn't for flavor reasons. Another example is we probably shouldn't let tokens have keywords that don't belong in their colors. (This is something I came around to over time, so I guess my inner Vorthos has grown a bit. In fact one of the first custom cards I ever designed was a monoblack sorcery that created white tokens with deathtouch, which I would mercilessly criticize today haha.)

Obviously, tossing away the color wheel as Rithaniel suggests WOULD be fine balance wise. Because it would affect all colors equally. The real issue, balance wise, is environments where some colors get broad versatility and bleeds while others don't. (EDIT: arguably even though a standard format where we decide to do the toss would be fine, it would have weird effects on eternal formats, but those have amazing fixing anyway, so this might or might not be a moot point, not sure)

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Post by void_nothing » 1 year ago

Once again congratulations to February's winner, @netn10!
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Post by wizyard » 1 year ago

hey, two months in a row!

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Post by netn10 » 1 year ago

Thanks everyone :) very solid month, reimagining Cleave for Capenna (or giving it its original porpuse, some might say) proved to be a fertile ground for designs!

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Post by bravelion83 » 1 year ago

I will add my own congratulations to netn10 for their win.

The first thread of mine for this month is up. The delay is due to what I detail in the Notes of the Day, I had to modify my local spreadsheet that I always use for keeping track of all the votes in a month when I host to account for what happened in yesterday's thread, the last one in void_nothing's month: Levin forgot to vote DURING their probation, which was issued on February 13th (you can find that day's thread in the contest archive) exactly for forgetting to vote. This is the second time it happens while the probation was still going on, so, according to the rules of the contest that can be found at the top of any day's thread, their card was NOT included in the cards up for voting today, and any eventual vote for them today will NOT count and will be excluded from my count tomorrow.

@Levin: this is nothing personal against you, it's just the rules of this contest, and void_nothing had warned you already when he first issued the probation that this might have happened. I've written my advice to you in the Notes of the Day today, please check them out. I really don't want this to happen again to you, and as I wrote there, I can't wait to see more of your designs! Just please pay more attention from now on and remember to vote every day, that's all. I really hope to see you keep participating in this contest, the very last thing I want to do is scare you away. Believe me, I'm really sorry I had to do this, but these are the rules of the contest and I just have to apply them when I host. Nothing more and nothing personal, I promise.
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Post by void_nothing » 1 year ago

This is a thankfully rare occurrence, so I understand if there are questions, but I can confirm that no, probation does not "reset" - the only consequences for not voting while on DCC probation is losing your chance to have your card be voted for the next day. Levin's probation only has 4 days left.

I want to concur with bravelion here: We the organizers don't want to intimidate anyone, and we certainly want to increase participation and want everyone to be able to enter and have fun. The thing is, not voting means you're just not fully participating - same as with New Challenge Every day, where you must post votes and an IIW. Mistakes happen, and the best thing to do is to find some way to remind yourself to vote.
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Post by Levin » 1 year ago

%$#% happens, but yeah, just have to be more careful next time.
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Post by bravelion83 » 1 year ago

void_nothing wrote:
1 year ago
@bravelion83 I believe you missed RattingRots' entry from yesterday, which was posted before this thread was!
What happened: RattingRots posted exactly while I was in the process of preparing today's thread and the page I was taking the votes from was still the one from before he posted. I always refresh the page at the last minute before starting updating my table to make sure I count every entry. RattingRots managed to post in that very brief period of time between when I refreshed the page and when I posted this thread, the like two minutes it takes to update my local spreadsheet. Then I posted the thread and went back to check the subforum main page, again as I always do, I saw my new thread but I immediately saw yesterday's thread right below it with "last post by RattingRots 5 minutes ago" and I went: "WHAT?" I opened yesterday's thread, realized what had happened, came back here, fixed things, mentioned that I fixed everything in the notes of the day, and then I thought I was done. I hit send in the edit page, it refreshes, and I see your post, so here I am again writing back to you and explaining in detail the quite frantic moments I've just been in. It wasn't easy to manage to hit the two minutes it takes for me to post the new thread, but he managed it. That's what happened. Thanks for mentioning it even if I had already noticed it, but you did well, it wasn't a given that I was still around to catch it live.
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Post by bravelion83 » 1 year ago

Riria wrote:
1 year ago
I'm *pretty* sure the CR as it stands doesn't allow this to work, but I don't think it would need much changing:

Bant Decree 1UWG
Instant (U)
Choose two. You may choose the same mode twice. If you do, this spell costs 1 more to cast.
  • Scry 2, then draw a card.
  • Distribute two shield counters among creatures you control.
  • Destroy target artifact or enchantment. If it was attached to anything, you gain 4 life.
@Riria
If you're referring to the first line, the "choose two" part, I believe it works just fine. In the process of casting a spell, you choose modes way before you even determine the cost. When you get to the point of determining the cost the game will know how many and which modes you have chosen (because you have already made those choices at the very beginning of the process, right after putting the spell on the stack which is the very first thing you do), so it will be able to detemine if the cost increase should apply or not. Usual disclaimer: I'm not an official judge, just a huge rules fan that spends too much time reading and thinking about the CR.

The part I have actual doubts about is the wording "attached to anything". I don't think that "to anything" is needed, the game knows whether a permanent is "attached" to something or not. What I would do is just say "if it was an Aura or Equipment that was attached to a permanent or player" or something like that. What else can get attached and to what? Nothing that I can think about in this moment, and even if there is something, that's just a corner case. You'd sacrifice only that corner case, if it exists, to gain clarity and a generally better templating, in my opinion. If I were this card's designer, it would be a sacrifice, and thus a change in wording, that I would absolutely make.
Author of the MCC Guidelines and FAQ. | For my projects, including Jeff Lionheart, my murder mystery story "One pierced heart, two mindful horns", and republished articles from my series "The Lion's Lair", see Leo's content index (Last updated on March 24th 2024 - Added OPHTMH Episode 4).
After I'm done republishing my articles I want to reprise the series focusing it more on editing, wording, and templating. Suggest potential future article topics here.
My CCCG Resume (Updated on February 27th 2024)
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MCC - Winner (9): Oct 2014, Apr Nov 2017, Jan 2018, Apr Jun 2019, Jan Mar 2022, Apr 2023 || Host (30): Dec 2014, Apr Jul Aug Dec 2015, Mar Jul Aug Oct 2016, Feb Jul 2017, Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last on MTGS), Aug 2019 (first on MTGN) Oct 2019, Jan Jun 2020 Apr Oct 2021, Feb May Sep Dec 2022, Mar Jun Sep Dec 2023, Mar 2024 || Judge (58): every month from Nov 2014 to Nov 2016 except Oct 2015, every month from Feb to Jul 2017 except Apr 2017, then Oct 2017, May Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last on MTGS), every month from Aug 2019 (first on MTGN) to Feb 2020, May Jun 2020, Mar Apr Sep Oct 2021, Feb May Sep Dec 2022, Mar May Jun Sep Dec 2023, Jan Mar 2024
CCL - Winner (4): Jul 2016 (tied with Flatline), May 2017, Jul 2019 (last on MTGS), Jun 2021 (tied with slimytrout) || Host (5): Feb 2015, Mar Apr May Jun 2016
DCC - Winner (3): Mar 2015 (tied with Piar), Feb Apr 2022 || Host (12): May Oct 2015, Jan 2016, Jun Sep Dec 2021, Mar Jun Sep Dec 2022, Mar Jun 2023

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