Liesa, Shroud of Dusk - Combo Midrange

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ChocoDude
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Post by ChocoDude » 2 years ago

You know, I saw that you were running Aura of Silence over Heliod's Intervention and I thought about that and it being recurrable with Sevinne's. How has it been without Heliod's in there? I like that it can gain you life IF needed, but the tax of AoS is pretty good and in general it sits lower on the mana curve as I generically assume X=2 on average. I may even try that swap. I did add Aura to my Maybeboard and I have two unused copies currently.

Additionally, if I swap Aura for H.I. that would add two more white mana pips to my board which makes Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx even more appealing as I'm heavier on white pips.

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RogHimself
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Post by RogHimself » 2 years ago

Somehow I was never pleased to have a Heliod's Intervention in my hand whilst playing Liesa, and have played it for quite a while. It has been a dead draw for me more often than not. I know it sounds weird, because 'on paper' this should be THE deck for it (besides that new commander Hinata, Dawn-Crowned that is). Especially in our build, since it synergizes on multiple levels.

It could be because I don't like it as a top-deck whilst popping off with Bolas's Citadel. But I think it is just too mana intensive for what it can possibly do. Congregate (and even Riot Control) is usually just way more value for way less mana compared to Heliod's (not taking it's flexibility into consideration). Spending all mana taking down as many artifacts/enchantments (thus getting most use out of Heliod's) is also kind of useless 9/10 times, since most of the time there is just one enchantment/artifact that's preventing you from winning. It's flexibility makes him a jack-of-all-trades in our build, but frankly, does not excel in anything.

Still I'm doubting whether I should put it in nonetheless. Thought about swapping it for Vanishing Verse or Despark, but probably won't. Even these two limited removal spells helped me more often than Heliod's Intervention!

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ChocoDude
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Post by ChocoDude » 2 years ago

Actually I agree with your sentiment about it being in hand often, sort of waiting to maximize it's value with X >= 2. It usually doesn't FEEL that good to me. I can see Aura of Silence as an instant deterrent. I think immo make that swap too. Thanks for the response!!

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Post by Vedran » 2 years ago

Hagra Mauling // Hagra Broodpit is really good. It gets even better with Bolas' Citadel out, but by itself, I think you can never go wrong with MDFCs if their effect is at least playable.

If I were you, I'd remove Path to Exile too. Giving an opponent a free land just seems like too big of a drawback.

I've been running Tragic Arrogance for a long time and although it played almost perfectly, I always had a feeling that it just wasn't the right card for that spot so I replaced it with Promise of Loyalty. I mean, I still think that Tragic Arrogance is the best white board wipe, but when I'm playing a deck that usually has 3+ enchantments and 3+ artifacts on board that are really valuable to me, I don't want to get myself in a situation where I have to sacrifice any of them and that's why I took it out for PoL. And Vanquish the Horde is just amazing, the ability to rebuild after a board wipe is great.

However, the question then remains - how to deal with artifacts and enchantments? I already run most of the good generic Orzhov removal plus Heliod's Intervention and Dismantling Wave, both of them for their flexibility, because I value flexibility the most when building my decks. In addition, Heliod's Intervention is an instant so there is that factor of unpredictability which Aura of Silence doesn't have. The tax on AoS is pretty good, so I would say if your meta is artifact and enchantment heavy, AoS would be a pretty good pick. And yeah, regarding X spells, if they end up being at the top of my deck with Bolas' Citadel out, I just War Room or Castle Locthwain them. There is always a possibility (although suboptimal, lol) to pay 4 life and just cast that Heliod's Intervention for X=0 to see what's underneath it, haha. But yeah, in conclusion, I'd agree, it really depends on how the card feels while you are playing your deck.

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ChocoDude
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Post by ChocoDude » 2 years ago

That's good experiential info. Thanks!! Yeah I have 27 total artifacts+enchantments and with Liesa being easy to bring back it does make more sense to use a very low-cost creature wipe here, especially if you can cast it before Liesa's first turn on the board.

I'm going to keep Aura of Silence in there for a bit and see how it feels. I also have three other spot removal cards that can take care of particularly troublesome enchantments or artifacts. That may become a sore spot if four isn't enough. Playtesting will let me know. Either way, I'm excited to try out my tweaked removal now. I already made the Path to Exile for Vanquish the Horde swap. Now when Hagra Mauling arrives, I'm going to pull a land, most likely a swamp.

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Post by Vedran » 2 years ago

Dismantling Wave is an amazing card, often overlooked. It has some nice political value too - you can just destroy 2 artifacts/enchantments, spare one opponent and not destroy his thing, making a friend in the process. Spending 8 mana to blow up all the artifacts/ enchantments is subpar, but hey, if the situation asks for it, it might come in handy. It can't be countered too.

I took Pestilence out and I added Arguel's Blood Fast again. It really gives just that little bit of a push the deck needs to get the engine going again if it stops and that's why I like it. It isn't the most efficient, but it has proven extremely reliable so far. The second thing I like about it is that, since Liesa decks in general have lots of value cards which can turn the tide of the game in your favor, getting that single game breaking card gets even more consistent, especially because opponents rarely want to target it. My version of the deck really needed that and now, with my draw power/ recursion being at 18 cards, I feel the deck runs smoother than ever. It has that Orzhov flavor in it, especially with extort, it has a subtle connection to Liesa's lore and I managed to put some of my favourite enchantments in it, like Painful Quandary and Bloodchief Ascension and most importantly it runs really well against most of the decks I usually encounter in my lgs. That will probably be it until Capenna comes out, I am hoping we'll get some cool new drain cards in that set.

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Post by Vedran » 2 years ago

Short update:

I took Syr Konrad, the Grim out for Rhox Faithmender. I figured the life gain part needed some boost and after 6 rounds of irl testing the deck works even better.

I took out Arguel's Blood Fast // Temple of Aclazotz for Angelic Accord and we'll see how it goes. My main idea with AA is to increase my board presence offensively and defensively. I usually play against creature decks of some sort so a blocker or two more is more than welcome with my low creature count. In addition, adding AA should improve the usefulness of Congregate, Pontiff of Blight, Akroma's Will, Kaya's Guile, Fumigate - if the situation asks for it and Exquisite Blood.
Last but, in a way, not least - AA fits Liesa's lore pretty nicely, you know, the story about her Flight of Dusk, etc..

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Post by EonAon » 1 year ago

Actually, accord is a trap and if I was to put any variant in it would be Valkyrie Harbinger . The reason I call it trap is that by itself it does nothing except give a potential token. If you can extort 4 times during an opponents turn or somehow manage to gain enough life consistently over and over its a beast of a card since it says at the end of each end step, but with how minimal the mana production can be and the fact extorts cost colored mana its difficult to consistently use in Liesa. Usually your only able to leverage it best during your own turn. If anything Id remove the pontif for Harbinger and put arguls in back where the accord now is.

As for why harbinger? Easy it enables itself. Yes the fact its a creature has alot of downsides, but since its a creature and were playing black/white, resurrection is easier than in other colors.

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Post by Vedran » 1 year ago

I did some testing and it surprised me how well Pontiff of Blight plays. It netted me some huge chunks of life throughout two games. Regarding extort - did you mean if I can extort 2 times at my opponent's turn? 2 extorts usually give 6 life and If I'm playing against 2 opponents, they'll give me 4 life, which is enough for AA. If I'm one on one, then yeah, extorting 4 times to get 4 life is bad.

Yeah, Angelic Accord can be a dud sometimes, but so far during testing it gave me 2 to 3 tokens while it was on the field. I think that's an ok rate for 4 mana. It being an enchantment means it is a bit harder to remove and even if someone spends removal on it, no problem - one less removal at my opponent's disposal for my more problematic enchantments. But since I'm testing, optimizing and tweaking my decks almost all the time, I'll keep Valkyrie Harbinger in mind, thanks for your input. :grin:

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Post by RogHimself » 1 year ago

I made some swaps and thought it would be nice to share them!

Out
Blackblade Reforged - Good card. But imho not worth spending my mana on (rather ramp and get to the finishers).
Giver of Runes - Since I'm not reliant on my commander (or any creature in general) this seems like a misfit in my strategy.
Lurrus of the Dream-Den - Loved the lifelink on it, but felt like a dead card in some games. Did always love it with a Wayfarer's Bauble or Children of Korlis in my graveyard though.

In
Damn - Didn't like to include wipes at first, mainly because they can disrupt my gameplan when I'm going off with Bolas's Citadel. Then I figured that this argument does not apply for Damn, since I just cast it as single target removal when on top of my library.
Farewell - Same as above: can be used flexible when located on top of my library. I really did miss some boardwipes in the deck, mainly because the deck needs sufficient time to get the correct pieces set up (and have sufficient mana for it). Usually my board-state is quite empty so a card like Farewell can really help catching up with tempo-decks.
Obzedat's Aid - Haven't tested it yet. I like that it can bring back any permanent, so it even includes a Marsh Flats. It will never be a dead card, but 5 mana seems steep. Might swap for Reanimate.
Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth - Great with Greed.

Also I'm waiting for Smuggler's Share to drop in price, definately would want to give this a test. Seems very good in this list (or any white list that does not include green). Extra draw plus extra ramp is always very welcome. Having a difficult time deciding which card to cut for it though. Will probably swap it for either Despark, Fracture or Vanishing Verse since Draw > Ramp > Removal.

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Post by BlackbirdPlaysMTG » 1 year ago

I have been playing the deck for a bit now and I have slowly taken it into a different direction. I was trying out a lot of different ideas and trying to do a myriad of things. Now I am just trying to play Angels and Demons and beating face with them. I added a lot of new threats compared to the old decklist. This approach seems to make the most of Liesa's life loss ability (going full voltron or lifegain does not really make use of her ability). Now her ability keeps chipping at them when they make their plays, while I try to beat them down with evasive threats. Also added some cards that protect my boardstate, like Teferi's Protection. When I have assembled a board, I can keep open some mana for that or other interaction.

I am still in the process of trying out cards, finding the right card draw package and looking at different curves. Maybe the Rune-Scarred Demon, Archfiend of Despair and Avacyn, Angel of Hope are a bit too greedy.

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RogHimself
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Post by RogHimself » 1 year ago

I've rebuilt my Liesa deck entirely as well. Took it into a group slug direction, full send. With lots of control to drag out the game.

Check it out!

https://www.moxfield.com/decks/2e3PshWy6kW0bNJnnL4PsQ

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Post by EonAon » 1 year ago

@LaHistorica So these are cards you might want to check out. The ones I really recommend are Varragoth, Dream Devourer, whip and the alter/tower combo. Devourer especially since it allows you to -2 off any casting cost on either the angels or demons and or other spells. Alter/Tower with some kind of beneficial play we could add might be worth looking into for the higher end ramp.

Varragoth is a repeatable vampiric tutor and is VERY good in my demon deck.

Celestine isnt either a demon or angel but the life gain plus the ability to bring back creatures is very strong and Rodolf goes indestructible every life gain and also brings back creatures. The fact that they both have lifelink is relevant.

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Post by BlackbirdPlaysMTG » 1 year ago

RogHimself wrote:
1 year ago
I've rebuilt my Liesa deck entirely as well. Took it into a group slug direction, full send. With lots of control to drag out the game.

Check it out!

https://www.moxfield.com/decks/2e3PshWy6kW0bNJnnL4PsQ
Nice list, with extra style points for the Fraying Omnipotence! You play quite a few boardwipes I see. Which cards are outliers in terms of power from your perspective?
EonAon wrote:
1 year ago
@LaHistorica So these are cards you might want to check out. The ones I really recommend are Varragoth, Dream Devourer, whip and the alter/tower combo. Devourer especially since it allows you to -2 off any casting cost on either the angels or demons and or other spells. Alter/Tower with some kind of beneficial play we could add might be worth looking into for the higher end ramp.

Varragoth is a repeatable vampiric tutor and is VERY good in my demon deck.

Celestine isnt either a demon or angel but the life gain plus the ability to bring back creatures is very strong and Rodolf goes indestructible every life gain and also brings back creatures. The fact that they both have lifelink is relevant.
Thanks for the list of possible goodies!

I have been considering Celestine, but the fact that she was not an Angel or a Demon soured me on her. I know, I am also playing the new Sheoldred but still. Rodolf is similar to Celestine. I think these kind of effects are pretty good in the deck. Ashnod's Altar and Phyrexian Tower aren't probably to great as standalones in my list, as I don't really run small sacrifice fodder. I really like the Whip of Erebos... gotta find space for it though :\ . Burning-Rune Demon is on the list as a possible addition. Varragoth seems like a solid card. It's deathtouch makes it a nasty attacker/rattlesnake and tutoring the best possible draw repeatably is good.

Do you have your own list online somewhere?

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Post by RogHimself » 1 year ago

LaHistorica wrote:
1 year ago
RogHimself wrote:
1 year ago
I've rebuilt my Liesa deck entirely as well. Took it into a group slug direction, full send. With lots of control to drag out the game.

Check it out!

https://www.moxfield.com/decks/2e3PshWy6kW0bNJnnL4PsQ
Nice list, with extra style points for the Fraying Omnipotence! You play quite a few boardwipes I see. Which cards are outliers in terms of power from your perspective?
Thanks!

Although the deck certainly contains some strong cards, the power of this deck mainly lies in the accumulation of all seperate punisher effects combined. I tried to synergize cards as much as possible. In a vaccuum, most of these cards just won't get opponent's down to 0 fash enough.

Ankh of Mishra punishes Landfall. Rug of Smothering, Kambal, Consul of Allocation and Liesa, Shroud of Dusk punish decks that cast many spells. Payoffs like Blood Artist, Massacre Wurm, Assault Intercessor, Dingus Staff specifically hate on aristocrats/sacrifice decks, but just like to see creatures dying in general (TRIGGERS!!).
Blood Seeker and Suture Priest hate on go-wide decks, and when my opponents are running out of creatures I'll help them a little in the form of Tombstone Stairwell. This last card synergizes greatly with Last Laugh, resulting in a complete wipe and LOTS of damage spread around. In case creatures do tend to stick around, there's almost always a boardwipe in hand dealing with all of them, triggering one of the pay-offs.

Having these control elements (wipes) in the deck is something that's important for a Liesa deck, since she's drawing lots of hate. In my experience, players just REALLY dislike taking damage from somebody. Even when it's really that combo player they should fear for. I like to keep a clean board, because most punisher effects are symmetrical, which would mean I would be a very easy target to eliminate.

All of these creatures going from the field to the yard is what Syr Konrad, the Grim likes to see. Bloodchief Ascension approves as well. Since Bloodchief is so easy to get online with Liesa, Shroud of Dusk, Kambal, Consul of Allocation, or Ankh of Mishra, I might have to call this the best card of the deck. Especially when combined with something like Pox, Painful Quandary, Dark Deal or Syr Konrad, the Grim's mill ability.

Pox, Fraying Omnipotence and Dire Fleet Ravager are all evil cards, but really make this type of strategy in a 40-life format work. Players get to critical life stages very quickly. Also, it feels really good to cast Undying Evil or Malakir Rebirth // Malakir Mire on Dire Fleet Ravager, to get an additional trigger after I remove him with one of my own boardwipes.

A card I should also definately mention is Heartless Summoning. It allows us to get Liesa on the field every turn for just three mana, which makes Liesa even stickier than she already is.

Regarding card-draw. Keen Duelist and Protection Racket are both perfect on-theme card draw. Also, Blood Pact, Sign in Blood could potentially blow out an opponent, especially when Sheoldred, the Apocalypse is on board. It's why I've included Secret Rendezvous and Your Temple Is Under Attack (and Dark Deal) in the list as well.

Cleansing is an obscure card I found which is a late-game bomb for only three mana. Players should have a lot of lands on board late-game and should not much life left at that point, resulting in no good decision to be made.

Finally, ofcourse cards like Wound Reflection and Archfiend of Despair will simply take all of the previous mentioned triggers over the top. The latter is a great Reanimate or Animate Dead-target after it's discarded.

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Post by Vedran » 1 year ago

I always thought group slug is the best way for Liesa to operate - pure life gain and tribal shenanigans always ended up performing pretty inconsistently. Fraying Omnipotence is simply a bomb paired up with Wound Reflection, Rog. :D

This is my build: https://www.moxfield.com/decks/GyzeufjtJUOpAz4Azxql_w

The idea is basically to punish everything that most commonly occurs in a game of commander - casting spells (Liesa and Kambal), playing lands (Ankh of Mishra), drawing cards (Sheoldred), creatures entering the battlefield (Soul Sisters + Marauding Blightpriest or Cliffhaven Vampire), losing life (Mindcrank, which basically disrupts opponent's decks. It can be tricky against reanimator decks, but people rarely play them in my playgroup so I don't mind.) and creatures dying or utilizing aristocrats strategies (Konrad). The deck has many small synergies, some noticable, some not. For example Skullclamp behaves like a tax card here, since when it is attached to Liesa and an opponent wants to destroy her, they'll enable me access to 2 fresh cards. Since the deck has upwards of 40 noncreature spells, I'm running Monastery Mentor whose tokens synergise greatly with Skullclamp thus covering a weakness Orzhov decks always tend to have and that is card draw. Command the Dreadhorde is in this build because of Mindcrank. The idea is total deck destruction through mill. While we are milling our opponents, why don't we get some cool value piece they have in their graveyard? Last card I am testing is a card that doesn't look like much at first glance, but I have a feeling it could turn out pretty solid - Union of the Third Path. Why don't we use Necropotence to take 30 cards into the hand and then gain 30 life possibly triggering a Vizkopa Guildmage and killing or getting the table really low. Then there's Vilis, Broker of Blood... Such a beast here. And while I'm running K'rrik, Son of Yawgmoth I can basically get him out on T4 or T5. I'd like to hear your comments/ questions, of course and I'm glad this thread is still alive!

Update:
Command the Dreadhorde → Revival // Revenge
Mindcrank → Staff of Compleation
Eerie Interlude → Union of the Third Path
Syr Konrad, the Grim → Vilis, Broker of Blood
Marauding Blightpriest → Crypt Ghast

Some changes were made since the time I posted this comment. I've realized that the deck is "punishment-heavy" and that I need more life gain to offset the life loss. Even though Revival // Revenge doesn't bring us closer to winning the game, it is still a card that gives us huge chunks of life and puts the player who has the strongest board on a much tighter clock. If the Revenge part isn't usable we can always use the Revival part to get back Monastery Mentor, Vizkopa Guildmage or Welcoming Vampire to the battlefield. I took Mindcrank out because I wanted to streamline the plan of the deck and I realised I probably don't need to take opponent's stuff through Command the Dreadhorde as my gameplan to win. Staff of Compleation serves multiple purposes in here - it is a mana rock and a card draw. In addition to that it can have some nice small synergies with cards like Bloodchief Ascension and for example Malakir Rebirth if we want to destroy and reanimate Gray Merchant of Asphodel. Union of the Third Path is a card that is pretty inconspicuous, but after Beacon of Immortality, Revival//Revenge and Congregate it is the next best card that gives us life - paired with Necropotence or Vilis it becomes a one shot kill spell if we have Vito or Vizkopa Guildmage on the board. I removed Marauding Blight Priest and added Crypt Ghast since it has synergies with Urborg, has Extort and has 2 power, which synergises with Welcoming Vampire. There is a subtheme in the deck revolving around Welcoming Vampire and creatures that have power 2 or less. At one point I just realised that most of the life gain/life loss/tax creatures have power 2 or less, so Welcoming Vampire fits the slot perfectly. This deck is in hug need of "veggies" to function and the vampire provides that. At the moment I'm running 32 lands + 4 mdfcs, but sometimes mid game I end up getting mana flooded. I'll be testing the 30 lands + 4 mdfcs configuration along with 2 more card draw spells - Night's Whisper + Read the Bones. Those will be improving synergies with Vilis, Sheoldred and upping my noncreature spell count to 50 for Monastery Mentor.

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Post by RogHimself » 3 months ago

Some spicy "new" tech for my Liesa OTK/Bolas' Citadel build:

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Post by BlackbirdPlaysMTG » 3 weeks ago

Going to try a new build soon... this is what I brewed up. It plays a longer game and should be a bit more resilient than the midrangey build I was playing. Has a bit more lifegain to keep me healthy and pillowfort to dissuade people from attacking me. I was considering running stuff like Exsanguinate and Torment of Hailfire, but even with Smothering Tithe in the deck and the possible addition of Cabal Coffers/Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth I don't think I will make enough mana consistently enough to turn them into game-ending bombs.

Liesa, Shroud of Dusk - New Build?

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