Having Your Voice Heard

[Taleran]

I don't mean to say people are lying but that the rosy view they present is exceptional and more rare in paper than the generic claim of "cedh players just want to race t1 cars." Suggests.

I believe some people really want that.

But I also believe most of them are practicing a degree of self deception if they think they are playing truly competitive games with an wildly unbalanced banlist.

I think the attitude of "let's just play competitive with this ridiculous noncompetitive banlist" also had negative impacts for the format as a whole. The practices of the cedh community do migrate to lower powered metas.

As someone who has played against your Tasigur Hermits, your Sultai Land Controls, Your Kess Storm decks and all mannner of other %$#%$#% in paper I can guarantee for you that interactive long games of different people disrupting one and other and moving their board states forward is a thing that is possible with the banlist as it stands right now and is really easy to do if you communicate with the people you are playing with and be a jovial pleasant to be around person.

You can play highly tuned magic in any environment because the base game of Magic the gathering is extremely flexible and well designed.

I would honestly say that the impact cEDH has had on card would have happened from Commander either way everything has mostly just gone up over time and recently with the WoTC declaration of no dedicated reprint sets in the near future at least in the short term.

[pokken]

As someone who has played against your Tasigur Hermits, your Sultai Land Controls, Your Kess Storm decks and all mannner of other %$#%$#% in paper I can guarantee for you that interactive long games of different people disrupting one and other and moving their board states forward is a thing that is possible with the banlist as it stands right now and is really easy to do if you communicate with the people you are playing with and be a jovial pleasant to be around person.

You can play highly tuned magic in any environment because the base game of Magic the gathering is extremely flexible and well designed.

I would honestly say that the impact cEDH has had on card would have happened from Commander either way everything has mostly just gone up over time and recently with the WoTC declaration of no dedicated reprint sets in the near future at least in the short term.

So what I'll say is that I doubt that most of the decks you play against are truly competitive at the same level. I've never really seen that. Usually someone is playing tier 1, someone is playing tier 2 with some budget sacrifices, etc.

The CEDH players at my shop all say stuff like "Oh, I couldn't get the vampiric tutor for it yet but it seems ok without it for now." Which makes me wonder what other things they're skipping for budget reasons.

That doesn't mean you can't have a fun game with those decks with disparate power levels, even if the differences are fairly significant - because the social / political nature of commander corrects for a lot of stuff. You can play 8s with 10s and it's usually still fun.

But it's not really competitive in the sense of Jund vs. UW Control in modern, or Miracles vs. Czech Pile (back in the day:P) playing 3-round games with sideboards.

[DrSeaMonster]

I don't really know where the divide is between casual and competitive, but it seems pretty vague to me.

The people in my playgroup all have a variety of decks with different power levels,
Personally I've got a Riku deck that has like four different infinite combos, I've got a Vorosh deck that can one-shot multiple players with infect, I've got a Nath that can use Mind Slash to completely push players out of the game, I've got a Balthor the Defiled deck that is literally just one stupid trick and I've got an Atarka, World Render deck that is just dirt stupid dragon tribal.

I think my point is that power levels of decks vary not just within playgroups, but within the decks of individual players.

[Taleran]

As someone who has played against your Tasigur Hermits, your Sultai Land Controls, Your Kess Storm decks and all mannner of other %$#%$#% in paper I can guarantee for you that interactive long games of different people disrupting one and other and moving their board states forward is a thing that is possible with the banlist as it stands right now and is really easy to do if you communicate with the people you are playing with and be a jovial pleasant to be around person.

You can play highly tuned magic in any environment because the base game of Magic the gathering is extremely flexible and well designed.

I would honestly say that the impact cEDH has had on card would have happened from Commander either way everything has mostly just gone up over time and recently with the WoTC declaration of no dedicated reprint sets in the near future at least in the short term.

So what I'll say is that I doubt that most of the decks you play against are truly competitive at the same level. I've never really seen that. Usually someone is playing tier 1, someone is playing tier 2 with some budget sacrifices, etc.

The CEDH players at my shop all say stuff like "Oh, I couldn't get the vampiric tutor for it yet but it seems ok without it for now." Which makes me wonder what other things they're skipping for budget reasons.

That doesn't mean you can't have a fun game with those decks with disparate power levels, even if the differences are fairly significant - because the social / political nature of commander corrects for a lot of stuff. You can play 8s with 10s and it's usually still fun.

But it's not really competitive in the sense of Jund vs. UW Control in modern, or Miracles vs. Czech Pile (back in the day:P) playing 3-round games with sideboards.

I feel like either you are moving goalposts about what defines competitive play or else we have never been talking about the same thing even a little bit.

[pokken]

I feel like either you are moving goalposts about what defines competitive play or else we have never been talking about the same thing even a little bit.

I think it's probably the latter. Most actual CEDH decks seem designed to win as many games as possible with zero concessions made to aesthetics. These decks are designed with the same ethos as competitive legacy, vintage or modern decks. I've watched the tournaments and lots of gameplay, and as long as people don't have budget limitations they tend to play out like they're trying to play vintage for the most part (with a potential core gameplan element always in "hand").

There is definitely a tier below that where people try to play good decks that have "competitive" games. People play great cards, play to win, but their strategies are not fully optimized for a capital C Competitive environment. Sometimes they make minor budget concessions. Sometimes they play pet cards. Sometimes they play spoiler strategies that aren't that great but create some interesting games. They're mostly playing to win, and mostly building to win, but if there were a CEDH GP they would probably be akin to people playing Soul Sisters in modern - the deck can win some games, it's strong, but it's not Hogaak-vine or whatever.

I'm usually on the low end of that power curve myself of this second group. Most of my decks would be as competitive as they can be with 5-10 card swaps, and fit in in the lower tier group of people doing things that are too strong to play with bear tribal but not strong enough to actually compete on a level playing field with Thrasios-Tymna scepter.

Based on what I've seen of your decklists (at least as I recall) I think you probably wrongly identify with the hardcore CEDH crowd.

[Taleran]

That wasn't really what I meant

competitive Commander will never behave like a 1v1 format so judging the level of competitiveness on those standards is not something that I think will ever work.

There are too many moving pieces in a Commander game for it to ever be comparable to those formats, its closest adherent is probably to a Canadian Highlander but even then the differences in card restriction methods and also the difference in life totals make those comparisons even fraught.

It is also why there can be variance in the power of individual competitive decks and there is not one deck take all because you are not playing against one opponent and x or y correct card at the right time from any deck can throw the game completely out of wack.

[pokken]

That wasn't really what I meant

competitive Commander will never behave like a 1v1 format so judging the level of competitiveness on those standards is not something that I think will ever work.

There are too many moving pieces in a Commander game for it to ever be comparable to those formats, its closest adherent is probably to a Canadian Highlander but even then the differences in card restriction methods and also the difference in life totals make those comparisons even fraught.

It is also why there can be variance in the power of individual competitive decks and there is not one deck take all because you are not playing against one opponent and x or y correct card at the right time from any deck can throw the game completely out of wack.

It sounds like you're saying that multiplayer formats can't be "solved" which I think is incorrect. They are more difficult to solve for a variety of reasons. But CEDH is very close to solved already--it may not win individual games because of political concerns or the like, but playing one of the best 2 strategies is probably correct.

If you tracked win rates I would be very surprised if Food Chain and Flash Hulk didn't have such high win rates compared to other CEDH decks as to make it largely incorrect to play anything else, even if you're playing things that try specifically to hate on those decks. (Now that PE is gone ofc:)).

The whole format kinda reminds me of Eldrazi Winter in modern.

[cryogen]

This thread is vetting a little sidetracked and there are some accusations being made here that are probably broad generalizations. Please soften your tones towards others and bring the discussion back to Sheldon's original question.

[pokken]

Sorry Cryo. We did get off on a tangent there. My point (as relates to the OP) is that I think we should be very cautious in understanding the motivations of people as we try to be more inclusive. As CEDH gets more popular, the risk of listening too much to that community rises, especially since they are generally, well, assertive - more likely to post about what they're doing on the internet, for sure. CEDH views are extremely over-represented on Reddit in particular.

By all means listen and demonstrate that you listen. Just don't listen too hard to the vocal minority. Surveys are fantastic because way more people will respond to surveys than will write a detailed post about something, and people will get closer to giving their truthful opinions.

[FireStorm4056]

I don't mean to say people are lying but that the rosy view they present is exceptional and more rare in paper than the generic claim of "cedh players just want to race t1 cars." Suggests.

I believe some people really want that.

But I also believe most of them are practicing a degree of self deception if they think they are playing truly competitive games with an wildly unbalanced banlist.

I think the attitude of "let's just play competitive with this ridiculous noncompetitive banlist" also had negative impacts for the format as a whole. The practices of the cedh community do migrate to lower powered metas.

There's a very good reason for what you've witnessed. We CEDH players know we are few and far between, so we often organize our own dedicated meetups amongst ourselves. In other words, totally independent play sessions that are planned ahead of time and often happen at venues other than the LGS - someone's house, at a bar, etc. CEDH players recognize that "pickup games" are not really a thing, and there is a huge risk of pubstomping if you were to randomly join an arbitrary group at an LGS. For this reason, we often intentionally go out of our way to seek out other CEDH players ahead of time and create truly exciting/dynamic/balanced experiences. We also often avoid situations and locations that may inadvertently result in strong negative experiences (e.g. seeking pickup games at the LGS). However, there's nothing we can do to prevent every single player with a CEDH deck from pubstomping.

You are entitled to our opinion on balance, but just recognize that you're making some very strong assumptions that look from the outside-in (having never played this "flavor" of EDH in a playgroup that's all onboard), and are also not based on ever having witnessed a legitimate CEDH playgroup and meta (for the reasons above). That's all I will say so as not to veer off-topic.

I feel it's important to mention this in light of Sheldon's OP, because many in the RC and casual community probably aren't aware that this is how CEDH players organize. It's why many feel that CEDH is totally broken and inherently unbalanced, as all they witness are pubstompy games where all you need to do to win is have the biggest budget and most cutthroat attitude. This doesn't actually hold true in legit CEDH playgroups. However, those playgroups usually don't play in places you'd see us to begin with, so you're mostly just observing the outliers rather than the norm. If we do play at the LGS, we often seek the quietest nights (such as Tuesday evenings) to mitigate pubstomping to the greatest extent possible... specifically avoiding FNM or weekend times.

[BaronCappuccino]

With the degree to which cEDH players organize independently, they should have an even easier time than the casuals in invoking house rules to take care of a card here or there that's taking over their meta.

[Jace]

Another issue is the glacial pace at which change seem to occur, which makes people feel the RC is out of touch. Look how long it took to resolve Iona, or Paradox Engine, a card so many were saying would be banned on sight. It literally coined the phrase "Paradox Engine level good" because the card itself is a metric for how broken something turns out to be. When a card sets the bar like that, you'd think it would draw more audible scrutiny from the RC. It appears now that the new input from other sources, such as The Command Zone and other consulting parties with the RC have finally overcome this lapse in communication between player demands and RC action, but the continued (and I say this as a devout Blue mage) presences of Cyclonic Rift is another sign that player concerns are not being attended to by the RC. Any indication of cards being considered for banning, or more transparency in what is being evaluated would be ideal here. In one respect to avoid the surprise banning of cards like in Yugioh, which in part makes that game terrible, but also to rest assured that evaluations of certain cards is at least underway, and not the discretion of some opaque, out-of-touch and unapproachable group of individuals that may be unaware of the issue at hand.

I don't complain without suggesting a solution, so I suggest the RC release a "Warning List" or "Cards Under Evaluation" list that includes cards being considered for banning, or being observed, so players can feel more assured that the RC and its consultants are actually attending to the format outside of surprise banning.

[Jim Wolfie]

Cedh's house rule: no cheating, no card restrictions based on feels. Usual tournament at casual rel stuff. Playtest cards are usually a yay. Sometimes there not. That one is like the only real house rule I've ever seen in cedh that's actively discussed, but I haven't ran into a ton of issues where people running the house were Hardline no's

[mention]Sheldon[/mention] I would also talk to Cameron from the lab maniacs. He has a ton of experience in all kinds of meta and I feel like he's someone who would be decent in your group in general not just as someone for a potential cag slot.

Like take this with a grain of salt, infinite cag members won't change the perception of the RC being out of touch. What would change that is showing that the RC's games are like are the same as someone else's games. This isn't even a relating to cedh thing, this is just being an everyman thing.

Personally I would appreciate more faith in us to moderate ourselves and decide what is and isn't okay. I had 4 friends quit on me because they really only liked p engine decks in commander. I can't say I blame them, when your favorite card gets banned it's a bit of a buzz kill.

[Istarkano]

Personally I would appreciate more faith in us to moderate ourselves and decide what is and isn't okay.

I have seen a similar statement many times since the announcement. What does this mean exactly? That question isn't targeted toward you Jim Wolfe, but to everyone with a similar view.

Are we talking no ban list? I am fine with that personally, but my playgroup is very insular (my friends and their spouses), so we are very big on Rule 0 and police ourselves perfectly fine. But this seems awful for those times when I go to a store to play or for those who have no group and need to play at stores.

Is it a complaint that the ban list is too large? Just a glance at the current banned lists shows that EDH is fairly close in number to other formats. Legacy is the one that it is the farthest from, but they have a large restricted list, which isn't possible in singleton. I mean, EDH's list is marginally larger than Modern, and it encompasses a much larger card pool. Seems like they (RC & CAG) have been doing a good job of curating the banned list, keeping it as small as possible. In fact, if nobody has read them, I found this article and this article to be very enlightening on the subject of EDH's banned list.

[cryogen]

Personally I would appreciate more faith in us to moderate ourselves and decide what is and isn't okay. I had 4 friends quit on me because they really only liked p engine decks in commander. I can't say I blame them, when your favorite card gets banned it's a bit of a buzz kill.

This bit confuses me, because the RC's message has been pretty a consistent "this style of play is how we think you'll get the best experience from Commander, if you choose to deviate from that then you may have to self regulate."

[Sinis]

Dear Sheldon,

My thoughts for the format align pretty closely with yours. I have, personally, cultivated a small group from LGSs, and created groups on social media to schedule games with like-minded people. It's what we wanted the format to be! We talk about what kinds of games we want to play, and we police ourselves with a high degree of effectiveness (we have soft-banned many, many cards long before the RC has put them down). The latest banning will not affect the tiny pocket-group I run in the slightest.

Despite all that, in the survey, I wrote 1 for whether I felt heard.

The impression I have is that you play with a tiny insular group (not dissimilar from my own) with its own foibles and characters. This is fine, rather, the problem I have is the inconsistent application of ban list principles. Erayo was banned for locking people out of magic years ago, and I brought Iona the very same day. Years (years!!!) later, agreement has been reached.

There are so many other awful cards just hanging around. (RC Collective) You banned Paradox Engine, but, we never even touched on Deadeye Navigator, which has been a) generating infinite mana, b) drawing/retrieving all the cards, c) locking people out of the game, and d) all of the above at the same time ever since it was printed in Avacyn Restored. Furthermore, by your own criteria, Deadeye Navigator doesn't create interesting board states. It either goes infinite, infinitely prisons (Mystic Snake will ruin a game), or is a french vanilla 5/5 beater for 4UU. Yet, I don't think I've ever heard its name whispered. I am certain it has been mentioned on the official forums. I'm certain it has been brought up time and again, and I'm certain mine isn't the only voice doing so.

Please don't take this as a single-issue message against DEN. I think you guys are doing an acceptable job in general, and for that, you have my eternal gratitude and respect. But, your use of the ban list needs improvement. Whenever the ban list changes, the impression I (and many of the people I speak to) is "Well, that was random; guess one of the RC members had a bad game." Especially with the Iona banning; Iona has been around for a decade. Bannings in other formats happen when a) a card is printed and immediately becomes a problem (like Griselbrand's treatment on release), or b) when a card develops into a problem over time (i.e. all the modern bannings). Was Iona not a problem until now? Why was it not struck in the same swing that banished Erayo?

[papa_funk]

I don't complain without suggesting a solution, so I suggest the RC release a "Warning List" or "Cards Under Evaluation" list that includes cards being considered for banning, or being observed, so players can feel more assured that the RC and its consultants are actually attending to the format outside of surprise banning.

This actually makes things worse, not better. We used to have this many years ago. All it does it lead to people freaking out about cards that may never be banned (imagine if there'd been 10 cards banned last week - you basically have a mini version of that every time), spending endless hours yelling abut how we'd better not do it, and rather than stabilizing the prices on cards, just makes the whole thing more volatile.

It's not like there's surprise bans. PE and Iona have been 2 of the - let's say 10 - most complained about cards for quite some time. I think people just got complacent because we try to keep the format as stable as possible and hadn't banned anything for a long time. Anyone paying any attention on forums has a pretty solid idea of what cards are under consideration.

[HoffOccultist]

Anyone paying any attention on forums has a pretty solid idea of what cards are under consideration.

Honest question here: Which forums?

I stay relatively plugged in on Reddit and Twitter, and maybe I missed something, but Paradox Engine and Iona both have been complained about, but I wouldn't say any more than a number of other cards. Possibly top 10, but I'm very curious to see that information laid out.

If the forums you are talking about are primarily the MTGcommander.net forums, I implore the RC to spread out far beyond those forums. If you are taking information from far beyond those forums, please share it.

Just saying "these cards have been complained about a lot" gives me the impression that the RC is making decisions via public outcry (which I know isn't true), but then when the ban list update rolls out there's not much exposition there to back up your statement here. It doesn't need to be anything absurdly long, but even something like "Paradox Engine has been on our radar since it's release, but with new cards from Modern Horizons such as Urza, it's presence has become too problematic due to....X/Y/Z".

[Jim Wolfie]

[mention]cryogen[/mention] that banlist is probably much smaller than the assumed one the RC actually plays with. When you're playing inside a store however, each store has their own set of shibboleths, essentially shared values. In this way, most local game stores end up acting as temples for play groups that have a ritual of playing at the lgs. While magic isn't a religion at all, the need for community is. If your values don't align with the group, often you kinda just have to search out a different store or online community. I wouldn't be surprised if the people who go to stores did in fact want to go to stores, community is a hell of a drug. There's something extremely cathartic and relieving about not having to negotiate power levels imo.

one of the more common values i see among all stores is that if it's legal it's okay to play, except when it isn't. What isn't okay is very different between groups. Sometimes its budget, sometimes its creatures and wipes, and sometimes no one has an issue with anything. If people had an issue with it, they deal with it in their own way. When i'm saying have more faith in people's ability to self moderate, its because commander in 2019 needs that gate to be as large as possible. if people liked doing "the nuclear option first" then that's okay too.

[cryogen]

Anyone paying any attention on forums has a pretty solid idea of what cards are under consideration.

Honest question here: Which forums?

I stay relatively plugged in on Reddit and Twitter, and maybe I missed something, but Paradox Engine and Iona both have been complained about, but I wouldn't say any more than a number of other cards. Possibly top 10, but I'm very curious to see that information laid out.

If the forums you are talking about are primarily the MTGcommander.net forums, I implore the RC to spread out far beyond those forums. If you are taking information from far beyond those forums, please share it.

Just saying "these cards have been complained about a lot" gives me the impression that the RC is making decisions via public outcry (which I know isn't true), but then when the ban list update rolls out there's not much exposition there to back up your statement here. It doesn't need to be anything absurdly long, but even something like "Paradox Engine has been on our radar since it's release, but with new cards from Modern Horizons such as Urza, it's presence has become too problematic due to....X/Y/Z".

Here are the previous years I've run my poll on MTGS:

Year one: DEN, Hermit Druid, Iona, and Mana Crypt were the biggest complaints.

Year two: Hermit Druid, Iona, Mana Crypt, and now Sol Ring

Year three: Iona, Mana Crypt, and Sol Ring

Year four: Iona, Mana Crypt, and Sol Ring

I can only speak for MTGS, but Iona has consistently been disliked for many years.

[Legend]

[mention]Sheldon[/mention] This is my first post ever here on MTGN, and I dedicate it to you, the RC, and CAD. Thanks for all y’all do. Y’all, especially you, have been gracious for over a decade despite the irrational insistence of perfection from some. Hold your heads high because for every 1 vocal dissident, there’s 10 thousand of us who are silent because we are content if not appreciative.

[HoffOccultist]

Here are the previous years I've run my poll on MTGS:

Year one: DEN, Hermit Druid, Iona, and Mana Crypt were the biggest complaints.

Year two: Hermit Druid, Iona, Mana Crypt, and now Sol Ring

Year three: Iona, Mana Crypt, and Sol Ring

Year four: Iona, Mana Crypt, and Sol Ring

I can only speak for MTGS, but Iona has consistently been disliked for many years.

That stands to reason, especially for Iona, but I'm curious how many similar data points are used is all.

[papa_funk]

Honest question here: Which forums?

I personally hang out on on MtgCommander, Facebook, Sally, here now I guess, and Reddit when I'm feeling masochistic. Plus all the random forums I'm visiting for my primary Magic job (I write the tournament rules) and whatever YouTube stuff looks interesting. Other RC members have their own preferences.

I used to do Twitter, but I had to give up a social media when I took my last job (just didn't have time for all of them), and that turned out to be the one that fell by the wayside.

[75chan]

I really don't want WotC to take over the format, I think you guys at the RC are doing a good job even if you're not perfect. I like the vast cardpool and the short banlist. I probably play too high power-level according to you guys (the famous 75%) but it's what I enjoy. I like playing fun broken cards that I can't play in other formats without having to go full spike and I iike the explosiveness of cards like Sol Ring and Mana Crypt. I'm very happy with the way the format is, and I think that WotC taking over would only make it worse.

Having said that, I both think my voice is heard and not heard. I was happy when Sheldon responded to a comment of mine once and I'm happy that at least some of you guys are poking around in forums and shows your faces. At the same time, I don't really feel like my opinion has an impact, but since I do play a bit over your style of casual even if I don't play full cEDH I'm not sure it even should have (but please unban Gifts Ungiven ^^).

[Vessiliana]

I might be late to this party. Living in a different time zone from most of you will do that. If so, I apologize and feel free to ignore this.

First of all, I'd like to thank the RC for the creation of this format. It's amazing, and I owe them for the many, many hours of fun I have had playing this game, which is now almost the only form of Magic I play.

Secondly, I think perhaps my meta might be a good example of what the RC considers a healthy one. It runs probably around 75% ish, with lots of viable decks. When a given deck becomes too much for the meta (like the Chain-Veil Teferi deck or the Arcanis infinite turns deck), that deck gets taken apart. There is a lot of discussion among the players about what we all enjoy and what we don't. We play regularly.

And the banned list has worked just great for us, as it is. Sure, we had to pull Paradox Engine and Iona with this last ban, but they were only in a couple of decks. (And the ban stopped me just in time from putting the PEngine into my Urza deck, which would have made me a bad, bad person...) No one in our meta plays Flash. But Protean Hulk shows up in Meren, where it is used as a toolbox to get answers for the current board state. No one minds seeing it.

I was very, very happy with the Primeval Titan and Sylvan Primordial bans, as well as the Kokusho unbanning. Other than that, I've not really had a big opinion one way or another about the bans, but we all abide by them. And our games are super fun.

Thank you.