Karador, Ghost Chieftain - Quest for Control

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WizardMN
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Post by WizardMN » 1 year ago

I think I ended up with the same issue with trying to shoehorn in draw on creatures where having some big draw effects on noncreatures seems to be the way to go. To be fair, I may still be focused on the "big" effects which is why Wall of Omen and Blossom were cut and why I don't do much with things like Fell Stinger. Even Corpse Augur, which I had a while back, ended up being cut as it was just a little too difficult to get to work consistently and for enough value. This likely comes down to deckbuilding choices though so Augur certainly has potential.

I do get the point of getting the same thing over and over again being repetitive. It is one of the main reasons I cut Protean Hulk because every game just felt like it was guiding me to just getting that or it led to me always getting the same thing.

I do agree Yawgmoth might be the biggest piece you are missing so hopefully you can find a way to get that at some point.

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Post by duducrash » 1 year ago

I was thinking of some effects like Circle of the Land Druid or Satyr Wayfinder it helps with land drops and fuel GYs have you thinkered with it?

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Post by WizardMN » 1 year ago

I had Satyr Wayfinder for a while and I did like it. It is one of those cards that sort of flies under the radar but can help make the deck gel a little better. I ended up cutting it due to space while I tested out other options (which may in turn get cut anyway) and I haven't had a ton of time to test my current list further. But I think you won't be unhappy with including it in your list since it does a fair amount. The main issue I have with it is relying on it for the land and then whiffing. Filling the yard is still fine in that case but keeping a potentially risky hand off the back of Wayfinder and then not getting that land can be detrimental whereas a different 2 drop that guarantees a land even at the cost of additional mana (Dawntreader Elk or Diligent Farmhand for example) might be better.

As for Circle of the Land Druid, I don't think it is good enough. Wayfinder works in most cases because you get the land "now" but if you are needing the creature to die, the sequencing takes a hit and while you might still get the value out of it, it might take longer than you might like.

I do realize these assessments ignore the value of filling the yard but that is mostly because I don't place a ton of value on that in general. A lot of this is due to my build and my preferred way of playing but I tend to look at Karador as a utility piece for later in the game rather than something I am trying to get out as fast as possible. I don't think the alternative is the wrong way to do it, but because my focus isn't on getting Karador out as quick as possible, the mill options aren't quite as attractive. But, I do believe that even if that is what you want to do, *just* milling isn't enough and I think Circle is too close to being that.

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Post by LightningLion » 1 year ago

I registered on this website just to say: Great job, WizardMN! This is a great inspiration.
I started paper Commander like a year ago, always play casual and mostly against my friends precons (Zaffai, Thunder Conductor, Wilhelt, the Rotcleaver, Breena, the Demagogue, Henzie "Toolbox" Torre and Kamiz, Obscura Oculus). My deck started as a janky combination that tried to do too many things at the same time: reanimation, recursion value, aristocrat and self-mill, and was only able to win by infinite combos. And the few times I managed to win it was a really unsatisfactory victory, a very linear deck.

This is my current list. I'm at a point where I feel I want to change to a different commander because I don't know how else I could change from this deck and I feel like it's becoming too oppressive and unfun without actually being able to close games.
I like pod/toolbox decks filled with silver bullets for each situation, I once (when it was more about self-mill) managed to play together Kamahl, Heart of Krosa, Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite and Kessig Cagebreakers with 10 creatures in my graveyard, that was fun. Moved away from self-mill because I was burning too much resources and becoming dependent of reaching an Eternal Witness to recover my non-creature spells.

Like you, I tried to keep my power-level on pair with my friends (although despite all the money invested, my friend's precons are way more consistent and their win-rates are a bit superior to mine) and recently decided to remove all infinite combos because it was becoming too linear and boring: get Fauna Shaman or Fiend Artisan, tutor for your pieces, win... And in one of the last games I had all the pieces for the combo at hand and I ended up losing because I didn't wan to combo because I actually wanted to continue playing.

Anyway, awesome thread, would be very helpful if you could update the deck on the first page to your current list, that'd be easier to follow.
Last edited by LightningLion 10 months ago, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by WizardMN » 1 year ago

Thanks for joining in on the conversation!

I think some of the issues you are having are relatively common. I too despise infinite combos for example and trying to match your power level with the groups can be hit or miss.

I think this deck can set itself up as a decent pod deck but then I do believe that some of the more explosive plays (such as the Kamahl/Elesh Norn/Cagebreakers play above) become a little more uncommon. Simply because you are trying to use those silver bullets and they tend to be more answering things rather than trying to explicitly move towards a win. Of course, that depends on how you build the Pod chains. Although, as you stated, the deck is becoming unfun so perhaps the silver bullet aspect or the idea of playing it as a control deck is what is the "problem" with the deck for you. I tend to prefer it as a control deck but that might not be the best option for you.

Looking through your list I see you are more into the mana dorks than I am. I don't really like them in this deck because I expect to be wrathing the board quite often so they just end up as collateral damage. If you decide to keep with mana dorks, I think not having Birds of Paradise is a mistake. It can block better and produce all 3 colors of mana which is relevant. It can't really attack but that isn't what you have your mana dorks for anyway. I think cutting Elves of Deep Shadow is likely the best swap for that.

There are a few other cards that I likely wouldn't play (mostly on the self milling side of things) but I can see where they are still useful. One card you do have that I go back and forth on is Viscera Seer as it is one of the best cheap sac outlets out there.

I see you are playing typed duals but not a whole lot of cards care about that. I am assuming the lack of fetches is due to budget but I think adding in Farseek is likely going to be better than Rampant Growth most of the time. Of course, I would suggest keeping both or maybe swapping Growth for another creature based ramp.

I am not sure what else can be changed to change the strategy to make it more fun. Is it primarily the infinite combos that you are trying to get away from? Is there another aspect of the deck that you feel makes it oppressive and unfun? I can certainly offer more suggestions to move into a different playstyle if you still want to keep Karador as the Commander. The nice thing about him is that he can be built a number of different ways so I am sure there is a build that still lets you do what you want without feeling oppressive but also that lets you win often enough (or keeping the games close often enough) that you feel like things are performing well.

As to the list in the first post, I do admit that is one of the main things I end up not doing all that well. It isn't even that hard in most cases since I keep my lists on Magic Online and wrote a program to convert those deck lists into BBCode. I just get lazy/don't think about it and the decklist tends to get out of sync. I will try to get that updated sometime today to make things easier to follow.

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Post by LightningLion » 1 year ago

Ah, my apologies, I was trying to share my experience with Karador, not specifically requesting help. Althought that is appreciated, so I'll try write something more extensive and meaningful.

The Rock is the kind of deck archetype I enjoy, more specifically Abzan variants (sometimes called Junk), as GB and BW are my fav color pairs (with Vindicate and Pernicious Deed being some of my all time favourite cards). Back when I started at EDH a year ago, someone told me "The Rock is a fair deck, that doesn't translate well into Commander", don't know how accurate that is, but I tried and didn't work that well. I enjoy control decks in the form of aggro-control in other formats, and midrange in EDH.

The aspect of Magic I enjoy the most is deck-brewing and playtesting. I'm not the competitive kind of guy and I'd rather have a longer game with twists and epic moments over a simple victory. But even with that, I enjoy winning from time to time because it means my changes are working.

Yeah, the deck is a "budget" deck, buying only cards that were only under 5€. The problem with that was that I bought lots of cheap, secondary cards that weren't that impactful, while ending up spending more money than I needed for the primary, relevant ones, which I'm still buying. But yeah, when you change that often the direction of the deck that's the easiest way to get a taate of how it'd be. And actually, the cards under sideboard are all the cards I own for this deck.

I favored typed lands for Krosan Verge and Wood Elves, which I tried to recur. Fetches are a no-go because of their price. I prefer to spend my money on fun, interesting creatures/permanents over the other kind of cards.
Regarding mana dorks, money budget is why I haven't bought the birds. Yeah, they're better but I'm OK with an elf that is 20 times cheaper, althought the decks suffers of being weak against flyers. I'm torn between mana dorks and ramp spells, dorks are there inherited from a Stax Karador list that I partially copied for a while an whose concept I really like.

Currently I try to run a deck that is good by itself without being dependent on its Commander, because Karador is great but isn't that great when compared to more modern commanders. I see that in my friends decks: Willhelt, Zaffai, Breena and Kamiz are way better as resource engines. My graveyard is a resource but I moved away from self-mill because that was really dangerous.

I enjoy the deck the way it is rigyt now, but could use some help on finding ways to close. Continuosly wiping the board is no fun when it only slows the game without putting you ahead. And also, I'm very week against direct damage. My survival in games usually comes from my ability to negotiate with other players to ignore me while we focus on the stronger decks (Zaffai is an "oops I win all of a sudden" type of dek and Breena is incredibly aggressive).

But like I said, I think I already spent a considersble amount of money and time playing one deck, so I'm probably moving for a while to a new one. I'd really like to do something fun and non-linear with Bane, Lord of Darkness, Liesa, Shroud of Dusk or Teysa Karlov

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Post by WizardMN » 1 year ago

With the full set spoiled for Phyrexia, All is One, here are some of the cards I am looking at.

Black Cards

Drivnod, Carnage Dominus - I looked at the new Elesh Norn for this deck and realized that I have a pretty healthy split between ETB and LTB triggers. Of course, that means that neither of these cards actually perform all that well so I can never be sure which side of the deck I am going to get. Ultimately, Elesh Norn likely ends up being slightly better but neither works out all that great in practice so I don't think I try to add either one.

Green Cards

Cankerbloom - We are getting quite spoiled with all the different Qasali Pridemage type effects in green. I am not sure this one is much better than any of the others I am already running but having the option to proliferate might be useful. In this deck, there is very little I care to proliferate so I lifely pass on it here, but it is still nice to have the option.

Multicolor Cards

Glissa Sunslayer - I like the fact that she can be pretty flexible and the abilities are pretty good. And the "hidden" fourth mode of just straight up killing creatures is pretty good too. Due to the interaction of First Strike and Deathtouch I think she can often deter being attacked and/or will almost certainly get in on most attacks. I am not sure where she fits here, but I think she can do good work.

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Post by PrimevalCommander » 11 months ago

@WizardMN have you gotten any action with Kura, the Boundless Sky? Curious how you liked that swap? I haven't gotten to cast Kura much, but the one time I did I was happy to tutor up several action-lands.

Also I recently swapped in Braids, Arisen Nightmare for Grim Haruspex as one of my draw creatures because I don't think I ever see this card draw less than 2 cards per trigger, and it goes off every turn. Talk about value! :cool: Though it does make me want more creature fodder to sac with Braids and Yawgmoth, Thran Physician, and Sidisi, Undead Vizier in the list.

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Post by WizardMN » 11 months ago

Not yet. My cousin actually just reached out to me about trying to do some EDH at a nearby LGS starting in May so I am hoping my EDH playing becomes more commonplace. For now, I just haven't taken the time to do as much online as I would like.

That is a good callout on Braids though. For some reason, I never notices she could draw cards and this seems like a reasonable deck for her to be in. Neither effect is likely ever going to be disappointing (even against a token deck with lots of sac fodder, the other players sacrificing something is likely good enough). I might have to revisit her for this list as well as my Sygg list.

If you find a way to get reasonable sac fodder though, I would be interested in hearing it. I don't think it is completely correct to go too far in that direction but for things like Braids and Yawgmoth, it could be worthwhile to increase it a little bit.

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Post by PrimevalCommander » 11 months ago

I typically don't have a ton of sac fodder in play, which is why I was trying to find utility dorks that don't require self-sacrifice to be useful. When I was playing Vulturous Aven and Moriok Replica, before [/card] Fell Stinger, I'd never have any chump blockers or fodder in play. I had run Hallowed Spiritkeeper for a while, but it just never did enough or never came around when I needed it. But it could be a good way to make a few disposable tokens for little investment now that some of my best draw engines require creature fuel.

One reason I want to test Scholar of New Horizons since it sticks around to die later to one of my other effects. I will keep an eye out for other ways to passively make dorks, but just generic token makers will probably look underwhelming based on our strategy.

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Post by LightningLion » 11 months ago

Had a lot of Commander games this weekend, as I attended my first Duel Commander tournament. Format is a bit different (1vs1, 20 life, special rules, different banlist, etc) and I anticipated faster and more aggressive games, something I'm not particularly good at. Took some extra inspiration from your updated list and changed a few things you said that I agreed with, like changing mana dorks to actual ramp.
These are the cards I added and played for the first time: Lurrus of the Dream-Den, Shigeki, Jukai Visionary, Dawntreader Elk, Necrotic Sliver, Remorseful Cleric.

I knew it, but seing it was a different thing: Lurrus is great. It provides and incredibly amount of value while Karador isn't in the board yet, allowing to ramp with Sakura and Dawntreader Elk. And locking my opponents with Spore frog (something you can't do with Spike weaver because of its cost), and sometimes he even gets you some life back.

Shigeki I chose it to replace Satyr Wayfinder because, on paper, it should help with 3 things: milling, ramping and recovering removal from the 'yard. But I don't think it works that well... That double X is pricey and his ability is very slow. Meanwhile Satyr does only two things, but better.

Remorseful Cleric I used it on a 3 player EDH with friends and I actually used it more to block flyers than to actually care about graveyards. I'm a bit exposed againts flying creatures.

And now, Necrotic sliver... Glad I decided to try it because it didn't look that good to me. Turns out instant speed recurrable removal is great.

The only aggro match I was able to win was against an Arcades, the Strategist deck by recurring Spore Frog each turn while hitting for 3 with Dauthi Voidwalker until the guy conceded, and on the other game I simply recurred Ravenous Chupacabra each turn until he simply didn't have enough mana to cast Arcades.

The funny thing is that after the tournament I played regular EDH with my friends using this list (current one, not the one I used o the tournament) and while they both played with precons (Silverquill Statement and Undead Unleashed) I was under the impression that I performed worse than when I played 1vs1. I think I need to redo my manabase and ramp because game lasted like 15 turns and I spent most of those with only 6 lands. I could be a matter of poor randomness luck since I got almost no draw and no milling but still, I think I have too many ETB tapped lands. I have an Underrealm Lich on the way and will probably get Kura, the Boundless Sky.
And while I ended 12 out of 24 in the tournament, the good thing was that I got a phyrexian Norn's Annex for like 50 cents in trades lol.

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Post by WizardMN » 10 months ago

I am finally getting back into playing and plan on playing in a LGS this Thursday. Because of this, I decided to get some reps in online. I played this deck against Sigarda, Host of Herons, Arcades, the Strategist, and Ixhel, Scion of Atraxa.

Start of Summary

I started off with a hand with 2 lands and a Wood Elves. Had I had a green source, I would have been tempted to keep it but the right play was to ship it. The next hand had 4 lands and a Fiend Artisan. Not much else went with it but it was good enough to keep.

I started off with land into land into Fiend Artisan. Sigarda started with a Leyline of Sanctity in play (which didn't mean much to me) and Ixhel got down an early Contagion Clasp. This was after Arcades ramped into their Commander with Sol Ring and Ixhel put the counter onto Arcades. I thought this was an odd choice as Fiend Artisan could have easily been picked off but I got lucky there as I think they expected to be able to kill Arcades eventually with the Clasp.

Sigarda also got down a Karmic Justice which did change some of my play decisions (I never got Bane of Progress off Artisan which I think I would have had Justice not been around). But ultimately, I think it triggered a single time all game. I do think the threat of it changed the rest of our play patterns but not sure if that threat was enough for them?

Anyway, Arcades started going off with their Walls but Sigarda got down a Dueling Grounds to stem the tide a bit. I ended up casting Three Visits into Skullwinder the following turn to get it back. I gave Sigarda their Nature's Claim back after they used it to blow up Arcades's Meekstone. I did this even though Ixhel's yard was empty since the Claim could come in handy later. Which it did (sort of).

Shortly afterwards, I got Junji, the Midnight Sky down to mainly use as a blocker since my yard was empty but Ixhel exiled it and hit me with their Commander. This was the only time their Commander hit me or anyone else.

From here, Sigarda and Arcades were going after one another. Arcades, at one point, cast Cyclonic Rift to help get in a bunch of damage. Which, to be fair to both of them, they were both quite threatening. Arcades was building an army, fueled in part by their Feed the Pack, and Sigarda was trying to go Voltron. Basically, each was trying to take the other out first and Arcades came excruciatingly close and got them to 1 life. Mostly thanks to Rift allowing them to hit for around 30 in one turn but Sigarda was able to gain a bunch of life back thanks to Shadowspear and Unquestioned Authority to ensure life gain and unblockable. They also had Daybreak Coronet for lifelink.

Unfortunately, Ixhel seemed stuck on lands but got to 6 I think (by turn 9) so they could do some things. Just not a lot. There was a situation where I could have helped killed Sigarda. Arcades attacked them when they were at 7 life and Sigarda blocked. I could have blown up their Shadowspear and Coronet with Outland Liberator // Frenzied Trapbreaker thanks to having Luminous Broodmoth on the field to get two cracks at it. This, of course, would have triggered their Karmic Justice and I didn't feel like intervening as they clearly wanted to go after one another and, to be honest, I wasn't entirely sure SIgarda was a bigger threat. Especially since I still had Fiend Artisan to get me to False Prophet.

I ended up casting Kura, the Boundless Sky off of a Rishkar's Expertise which drew me 4 cards thanks to Fiend Artisan being big-ish. Bazaar of Baghdad was also helping filter through the deck. I didn't activate it too often but it came in handy to get to my land drops at a couple crucial moments. I think I had 5 or 6 cards in a row without a land so Bazaar got me there.

With Fiend Artisan, I sacrificed Kura to get False Prophet. I also got Diamond Valley, Phyrexian Tower, and Takenuma, Abandoned Mire off the death of Kura. These came in handy not only to sac Prophet but to sac Cavalier of Thorns later on in response to a Farewell.

Eventually, Sigarda made it through and killed Arcades. Ixhel tried building more with a The Great Henge but Sigarda tried blowing it up with Nature's Claim. They cast Teferi's Protection in response so I used my Outland Liberator to blow it up. But now, because Ixhel was Protected, Sigarda came after me so I just sacrificed False Prophet. This exiled everything and left me with a flying False Prophet thanks to the Broodmoth that was still around. This gave me another go at it if I needed it.

As part of this, since I sacrificed Prophet to Phyrexian Tower, I used Takenuma and got Cavalier. This got me a land but then Ixhel cast Farewell the next turn. I simply sacrificed Cavalier to get Ashen Rider on top as I had plenty of mana to cast it and Ixhel decided that was enough and scooped it up.

End of Summary

All in all, the deck performed very well. A couple small stumbles on land earlier on as I didn't get much for ramp but it all worked out well. The one takeway I think ties into one of the more recent conversations and that is around creature based wraths. False Prophet almost certainly won the game here but that was really the only option. Cataclysmic Gearhulk wouldn't have worked thanks to Sigarda's ability (it would have helped against Arcades though) and I don't have Massacre Girl. I think she is still the next best option though I am not entirely sure she could have killed everything. I think so as luckily there was a couple 1/1 tokens to keep her going but there is a potential when trying to kill bigger things that she just won't trigger enough.

I do have noncreature based ramp of course so perhaps the stuff I have, especially considering I can get to Prophet with a number of other cards, is enough. And this is simply one of the worst matchups for Gearhulk so it is hard to say it is a bad options overall.

I do like the way the deck performed and I don't think I had any major missteps along the way. I look forward to playing it some more in the near future.

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Post by pokken » 10 months ago

WizardMN wrote:
10 months ago
Anyway, Arcades started going off with their Walls but Sigarda got down a Dueling Grounds to stem the tide a bit. I ended up casting Three Visits into Skullwinder the following turn to get it back. I gave Sigarda their Nature's Claim back after they used it to blow up Arcades's Meekstone. I did this even though Ixhel's yard was empty since the Claim could come in handy later. Which it did (sort of).
man I love Skullw ;)
WizardMN wrote:
10 months ago
Unfortunately, Ixhel seemed stuck on lands but got to 6 I think (by turn 9) so they could do some things. Just not a lot
I have not played a game of EDH where someone wasn't stuck on lands for the last year. People so greedy for the chicken wings now.
WizardMN wrote:
10 months ago
The one takeway I think ties into one of the more recent conversations and that is around creature based wraths.
Apex Altisaur yo - pretty dang pricy manawise though if you're not cheating I guess :)

There's also Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite for the old school, it usually winds up behaving pretty close to a creature sweeper.

And of course the ol' Skullwinder / Vanquish the Horde type loops are pretty effective at that; might be worth adding an additional wrath. I've really liked Vanquish lately, with how mana efficient it is.

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Post by WizardMN » 10 months ago

I did have a game with Volrath where it was me and another person left and Skullwinder was stuck in my hand because the card they would get would have been better than the card I could get. That, so far, has been the worst situation I have been in for Skullwinder. But overall, it has been a net positive which has been great.

Yeah, I wonder how much of that is because they are greedy for their own stuff and how much ties into how fast the format can be. I am not saying every game is ending on turn 3 but there are a lot of things that can really just end games early so being greedy could be a symptom of wanting answers. I don't think that is a good argument for going light on lands and it could just be poor deckbuilding in general. But perhaps the speed of the format is influencing that a bit.

I think both have the same problem with being pricey. I can cheat them in with Karmic Guide for example, but both are very difficult to cast on time or get with Fiend Artisan. It is one of the reasons I was thinking of Massacre Girl as 5 mana is a bit easier to reach than 7 and 9. Plus, neither Altisaur nor Elesh Norn are going to wipe away everything in most cases so I would rather lean towards something that could wipe everything.

Maybe something like Vanquish the Horde is the right call due to how cheap it can be though. I think because the deck is built with creatures in mind, I would prefer something in that space. I think Damn and Toxic Deluge are good options for wraths that are not creature based for now.

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Post by pokken » 10 months ago

WizardMN wrote:
10 months ago
I did have a game with Volrath where it was me and another person left and Skullwinder was stuck in my hand because the card they would get would have been better than the card I could get. That, so far, has been the worst situation I have been in for Skullwinder. But overall, it has been a net positive which has been great.
Yeah, I find that the fun/politics factor plus blocking over and over again with deathtouch in this deck should be worth the risk o that happening sometimes. It's a fine line between building around the ceiling/floor/middle, I think Skullwinder has a great middle and a much higher ceiling than e-wit, but lower floor of course. But it's not wishful thinking that sometimes it's down right better by a lot.
WizardMN wrote:
10 months ago
I think both have the same problem with being pricey. I can cheat them in with Karmic Guide for example, but both are very difficult to cast on time or get with Fiend Artisan. It is one of the reasons I was thinking of Massacre Girl as 5 mana is a bit easier to reach than 7 and 9. Plus, neither Altisaur nor Elesh Norn are going to wipe away everything in most cases so I would rather lean towards something that could wipe everything.
Yeah I think it's worth trying for sure. I have found a lot of times where, when I was playing Massacre Girl, I could not kill a board of a couple big creatures. It was surprising how often it happened. Interestingly, Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite can struggle in those situations too, but also lets you race sometimes.

I wonder if a card like Peacekeeper might be more the right angle? It's kinda strongly synergistic with Karador. Windborn Muse type dudes also can do some work. Vulnerable to spot removal sometimes though.

I think I kinda lean toward Windborn Muse effect, since it's a flying chumpblocker too, but that's just me. in karador, Stonehorn Dignitary might be superior though.

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Post by WizardMN » 10 months ago

pokken wrote:
10 months ago
WizardMN wrote:
10 months ago
I think both have the same problem with being pricey. I can cheat them in with Karmic Guide for example, but both are very difficult to cast on time or get with Fiend Artisan. It is one of the reasons I was thinking of Massacre Girl as 5 mana is a bit easier to reach than 7 and 9. Plus, neither Altisaur nor Elesh Norn are going to wipe away everything in most cases so I would rather lean towards something that could wipe everything.
Yeah I think it's worth trying for sure. I have found a lot of times where, when I was playing Massacre Girl, I could not kill a board of a couple big creatures. It was surprising how often it happened. Interestingly, Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite can struggle in those situations too, but also lets you race sometimes.

I wonder if a card like Peacekeeper might be more the right angle? It's kinda strongly synergistic with Karador. Windborn Muse type dudes also can do some work. Vulnerable to spot removal sometimes though.

I think I kinda lean toward Windborn Muse effect, since it's a flying chumpblocker too, but that's just me. in karador, Stonehorn Dignitary might be superior though.
I think that is my main cause for hesitation with Massacre Girl and is one of the bigger reasons I don't really like running Massacre Wurm either. Sometimes I just want/need the board gone so having a situation where Girl can't get going or stops in the middle of her process feels very bad. I do think the existence of Dryad Arbor here can help. We lose a land but it helps trigger Massacre Girl again which might be enough to get over the hump. Same with sac outlets to get her another trigger if needed.

I do sort of like the idea of Peacekeeper though. The main reason I won the game above was because Arcades couldn't attack much thanks to Dueling Grounds. Perhaps a creature based version of this is warranted. Especially considering I rarely attack anyway until the end of the game and it becomes trivial to get rid of Peacekeeper. The main question though is when would I want this over False Prophet in terms of tutoring for something. Peacekeeper is good if I just get to it at the right time, but I think I would primarily be focused on searching for False Prophet. Still, I won't always have access to it so maybe it is a reasonable option. I might think more on it.

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Post by pokken » 10 months ago

WizardMN wrote:
10 months ago
I think that is my main cause for hesitation with Massacre Girl and is one of the bigger reasons I don't really like running Massacre Wurm either
(...)
I do think the existence of Dryad Arbor here can help.
The thing I like about wurm is it doubles as a wincon by draining people a lot of times, so ceiling is higher? And it's one sided.
Yeah arbor is a good call.
WizardMN wrote:
10 months ago
I do sort of like the idea of Peacekeeper though. The main reason I won the game above was because Arcades couldn't attack much thanks to Dueling Grounds. Perhaps a creature based version of this is warranted. Especially considering I rarely attack anyway until the end of the game and it becomes trivial to get rid of Peacekeeper. The main question though is when would I want this over False Prophet in terms of tutoring for something. Peacekeeper is good if I just get to it at the right time, but I think I would primarily be focused on searching for False Prophet. Still, I won't always have access to it so maybe it is a reasonable option. I might think more on it.
I think your main reason for Peacekeeper is when keeping your board is relevant, especially if you have a dude on board you don't wanna exile. Like if you think you might be able to dig out with Noxious Gearhulk'ing a few things, but need to buy some time?

Nice part about PK is you can self-sac it in upkeep on the turn you want to win, really no support needed. It was very very good in Ephara back in the day; I eventually cut it because I got tired of the play patterns and my meta was just loaded with Warstorm Surge effects (may I hate that card).

The main downside to PK other than removal is that it keeps people from swinging at other people; so play pattern wise, Windborn Muse can be better for that situation?

The problem with all of those effects is they don't fix stuff like Ledger Shredder or whatever pile of value engines.

It's a real tough call tbh.

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Post by PrimevalCommander » 10 months ago

pokken wrote:
10 months ago
The main downside to PK other than removal is that it keeps people from swinging at other people; so play pattern wise, Windborn Muse can be better for that situation?
This is my problem with Peace Keeper. It locks the entire board down from attacking, which actively hurts what I want to happen. I want my opponents to attack each other so I can sneak in the late game life drain or such to win. Board wipes arguably do the same thing, but generally a clear board is better for me than most anyone else at the table. Just play Spore Frog/Kami of False Hope, or Spike Weaver as your anti-combat card and your opponents will still get to alpha strike the other guy before you False Prophet their field away. Any of these pillowfort cards are weak to instant speed removal, so may as well make it as flexible as possible. Spore Frog is loopable with most any creature loop engine in the game. Groan inducing in Meren of Clan Nel Toth decks, but no arguing it's effectiveness.

I see Spike Weaver in the OP decklist, how many of these types of effects do you want? I like Ghostly Prison more than Windborn Muse because it is a bit harder to interact with, though harder to recur as well. Tradeoff's and all that. :smirk:

Also: Glad to see Kura, the Boundless Sky got to do the thing. That land group looks exactly like the first land group I tutored with Kura, though I was already about to lose so it didn't affect the game much, having so many relevant utility lands makes that feel like a triple Demonic Tutor (sort of) with the Kamigawa lands, Sac Lands, Bounce Lands, and Volrath's. I don't have a Bazar.

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Post by WizardMN » 10 months ago

Definitely a lot to think about in general. It is tough to advocate for more changes when I won the game. It is clear that someone else was able to control the board enough, and another was enough of a threat, that I never really needed to do much until later. Still, these games aren't always going to play out this way so I am just looking at options "just in case". Peacekeeper certainly has its flaws and Spore Frog is one that I have thought of as well. It mainly has the drawback of a single use per turn cycle whereas Spike Weaver and Constant Mists can be used a few times without jumping through too many hoops.

In any case, I think this discussion is mostly academic. I think with the current removal suite, both spot removal and board wipes, I am not rushing to shore up any potential weaknesses. If I find things are going sideways, this discussion at least starts the process for potential adds as needed.

And yeah, Kura was really good here. The trigger was instrumental in making a bunch of other things work so I was glad I had a way to kill it when I needed to. I am suitably impressed for its first showing.

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Post by WizardMN » 10 months ago

I got a chance to play this in person last night for the first time in a long while (nearly 3 years!). I played against Mari, the Killing Quill, Tanazir Quandrix, and Shalai and Hallar.

Start of Summary

The game started off slow. I didn't have much ramp, though I did get to Three Visits eventually. Shalai and Tanazir got a good board state right away and then Tanazir hit me early. This brought me down to 23 life after a few other things had happened. I ended up wrathing with Toxic Deluge (which I think is what actually brought me to 23) and then tried to build up again. However, everyone rebuilt pretty well (Mari was very impressive here).

There ended up being another board wipe later on which helped stabilize a little but I was down to 10 at this point. Luckily, Mari was the obvious threat so Shalai had out Sunscorch Regent and was able to keep pinging Mari. Eventually, we got to a point where there were a couple options for killing Mari. Shalai and Tanazir were going to team up and then Shalai rethought it. it still worked out but played a little safer so Mari didn't just die. The idea then was to get us to cast some spells to trigger Regent which we did (I cast something, I don't remember what) to ping for 1 more to get Mari all the way down to 1. We dealt 5 ping damage that turn in total.

This worked out to be just enough as Mari had Black Market Connections on the board and needed to pick at least one mode so this killed them.

However, because of Mari and their deck, my graveyard was basically empty. Tanazir also had Scavenging Ooze which was stopping me from looping much. But then I ripped Ashen Rider off the top to get rid of Ooze and this spelled the end for everyone else. I did end up getting down to 2 life before this but High Market and Miren, the Moaning Well kept me alive and allowed me to sac Ashen Rider a couple times to get more life. I ended the game at 15 life and Ashen Rider did everything to really bring this game home at the end. Honestly, getting rid of Ooze was probably a big thing here as it left things open even if they had other ways to get rid of Ashen Rider.

End of Summary

Again, the deck played wonderfully and I didn't have any significant issues with it. I did stall out and there was a threat of losing so who knows what would have happened without Ashen Rider but it was enough. I never got much in the way of big creatures unfortunately so Miren did very little up until the end to give me a way out. But, all in all, it ran mostly the way I expect which is just fine for me.

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Post by WizardMN » 10 months ago

Here are my thoughts regarding March of the Machine, March of the Machine: Commander, and March of the Machine: Aftermath. I am also potentially including cards from Warhammer 40k Commander since I got behind a little:

White Cards

Excise the Imperfect - An instant timing answer to basically anything. The main issue is that I am not sure on the power/downside of providing an Incubate token. I think in most cases I would probably rather deal with a 4/4, 5/5, 6/6, or whatever token than I would with whatever it is I am trying to remove. The main downside is simply that if it is stopping one from dying to combat damage, the token probably ends up being enough to deal the killing blow next year anyway. But that is a fairly small issue considering all the powerful permanents that exist out there.

Green Cards

Invasion of Ikoria - This looks to be a better Green Sun's Zenith. Sure, it costs 1 more mana but can also grab things out of the graveyard and is not limited by color. It can't find Humans but that is not that big a deal. And the back side is pretty powerful if it sticks around and can just win games. If nothing else, I think a straight swap makes sense but I could also see finding room to add this to the tutor suite.

Multicolor Cards

Sister Hospitaller - A creature that I can reanimate which then reanimates another creature and gains life seems solid. And with 2 toughness it can be gotten with Recruiter of the Guard which is very relevant. I might try to find some space for it to see what it can do.

Thalia and The Gitrog Monster - This looks pretty good for a 4 drop. A slightly more expensive Courser of Kruphix but one that also slows opponents and helps draw cards. It also will likely never be blocked. At least, not profitably owing to the Deathtouch and First Strike. I like the card enough that I might try to slot it in somewhere here.

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Post by WizardMN » 10 months ago

Here are a few changes I am going to try out:
5/19/2023
Approximate Total Cost:

First, the easy one is simply a swap between GSZ and Invasion. I think this makes more sense as it costs only 1 mana more and can get a lot more options. And it does (potentially) turn into its own threat later which is nice. The main drawback is simply that I can't get it back with things like Eternal Witness quite as easily since it is sitting on the board.

Sister Hospitaller is another reanimation option. Granted, Phyrexian Delver might be a better option even though it makes me lose life. But, the additional mana and life gain can be significant. I will have to see what happens and I might just swap in Delver again or just cut it entirely.

Thalia and Gitrog seem pretty good overall. Ramp and card draw for 4 mana is solid and it can be a good beater thanks to First Strike and Deathtouch.

Skyfisher hasn't been as good as I would have liked as I don't always have something to sac and Spring-Leaf is just the only other cut I could come up with.

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Post by LightningLion » 10 months ago

I never quite understood why you picked the spider over something like Ravenous Chupacabra. I don't see its second ability fitting this deck, so when it comes to the first ability, while it can potentially affect more types of permanents, being conditional is a big downside. Plus, we have many other ways to deal with artifacts and enchantments (although not that many for Planeswalkers).
After running Spring-Leaf Avenger for a while, people remember your deck had one ninja and also rarely triggers more than that first time.
Invasion of Ikoria is a pretty straight-forward replacement, and Thalia & Gitrog looks bananas, I really hope I can test them soon.

And as a side comment: Randomness sure is a funny thing. I made many changes to my deck 3 weeks ago for that tournament and while I've consistently played some of those cards, never even once was able to play Chainer. Even Last week when we beat our record with our game lasting 3 hours, and it went down to me having 2 cards left on my library.

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Post by duducrash » 10 months ago

I really like the spider! Wish she could sac herself but its even a sac outlet. The second ability is gravy, since its a may!

I'm also excited for Thalia and The Gitrog Monster and will try as soon as I get one

Two cards Ive been meaning to try are Drana and Linvala and Diabolic Intent and maaaaaaybe Cosmic Rebirth

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Post by WizardMN » 10 months ago

LightningLion wrote:
10 months ago
I never quite understood why you picked the spider over something like Ravenous Chupacabra. I don't see its second ability fitting this deck, so when it comes to the first ability, while it can potentially affect more types of permanents, being conditional is a big downside.
I don't really need Chupacabra (and arguably, I never needed the Spider) but hitting more permanents was the entire reason I wanted to try it. I don't really need to do more to hit creatures specifically so having something that is more flexible seemed like it could be decent. But yes, the conditional aspect was far more of a detriment than I was hoping.
duducrash wrote:
10 months ago
Two cards Ive been meaning to try are Drana and Linvala and Diabolic Intent and maaaaaaybe Cosmic Rebirth
Rebirth was something I looked at a little and just felt it wasn't quite there. I would be curious on Drana and Linvala though. And Diabolic Intent is one I have thought about as well but I try to keep the quantity of tutors (non-ramp ones anyway) to be fairly minimal. But I do think it could be good.

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