Volrath, the Shapestealer - Clones

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Post by WizardMN » 2 years ago

I got a game in online against a few different decks. A couple people scooped early so I don't want to go into too much detail. But I had a few plays that I want to call out.

Grist, the Hunger Tide created a bunch of tokens and I had Carnifex Demon in hand. However, They were able to give all their tokens a counter thanks to Oran-Rief, the Vastwood and I didn't have the mana to just kill the tokens outright so I bided my time. I never got a chance to cast and activate the Demon unfortunately.

I did get stuck on lands pretty hard and part of this was because the 3 decks I was facing were pretty aggressive so I couldn't just use a clone on my Wood Elves to ramp more. I needed them to copy my Ravenous Chupacabra which would have been really good except for one major misplay:

I was in a position where I was losing pretty hard and I was facing the last opponent. They had a good board, a bunch of equipment, and Puresteel Paladin letting them equip everything for free. They also had a Koll, the Forgemaster which plays heavily into my misplay. I countered their Sword of Feast and Famine with Mana Drain to give me some extra mana. I cast Sublime Epiphany on my turn to bounce their Sword of Light and Shadow and copy my Chupacabra. And draw a card. I used this to blow up their Paladin but Koll just gave it right back to them. I should have blown up Koll first.

Then I cast Phantasmal Image copying Chupacabra which I then also copied with Bramble Sovereign to blow up Koll and another creature. But this left them with Puresteel in hand which let them equip their Colossus Hammer for free and Bruse Tarl, Boorish Herder gave their creature double strike to one shot me since they had a way to get back the Sword of Feast and Famine I countered so I couldn't block.

I think I was in a bad spot either way since I couldn't seem to get to any of my wraths/bounce but I still would have preferred playing it correctly. I still had fun with the deck even ignoring the fact that I just couldn't get to my ramp so hopefully that doesn't happen next time.

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Post by WizardMN » 2 years ago

I have gotten behind in set updates again but this set did have a bit for quite a few of my decks. Here are my thoughts for this deck:

Blue Cards

Hullbreaker Horror - Another massive creature that has a huge effect. With the ramp in this deck, it shouldn't be hard to get to the mana for this. I like everything about this card and copying it with Volrath or any of my other clones just seems awesome. Maybe a bit oppressive if it really gets going, but still awesome.

Mirrorhall Mimic - Another Clone effect but this one also makes more tokens later on of whatever I enchant. I am not sure even both sides together end up making it a playable card considering the other clones I already have but it seems like it could be pretty close.

Overcharged Amalgam - Another Mystic Snake/Frilled Mystic variant but one that also hits abilities. I like this type of card as it fits my playstyle reasonably well so I probably try to find a place for it in the deck. It isn't perfect as it won't always stick around to be cloned, but I think it could work well. Worst case, it probably slots in over Mystic Snake.

Black Cards

Toxrill, the Corrosive - This is another big beater though being Legendary lessens the effect Clones have with it. Importantly, it gives everything I don't control a counter and does it at every end step. This could be detrimental as it kills off things I might want to Clone but, on the plus side, it kills off things :) I think I ultimately play this over Carnifex Demon.

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Post by WizardMN » 2 years ago

Here is what I am thinking for new changes:
12/15/2021
Approximate Total Cost:

Amalgam and Voidslime are pretty much straight swaps. Which, honestly, I don't like as I really like Voidslime as a card but I can never get it to really stick around. Amalgam, even though it is one more mana, seems like the better option for the deck.

Generous Patron is one that I saw a thread of its own for and I got to thinking about why I am not running it here. It works awesome with Volrath and, at the expense of buffing two creatures my opponents control, I get two cards out of it. "Worst" case is I get a counter on something else I control to turn Volrath into that. Either Bloodmage or Zimone could be considered the actual cut for this but the truth is that neither was doing much in the deck (Bloodmage did have an awesome game one time though) so it just felt they were the right cuts to make here. Zimone is nice but ultimately I don't think she is really needed.

Toxrill and Carnifex Demon are straight swaps as well. Toxrill seems far better as a board wipe (which is a little bit of anti-synergy as I mentioned in my previous post) but it also doesn't mess with my board which is nice. Thanks to the way State Based Actions work, I can clone Toxrill with Volrath and have the -1/-1 effect apply from both as a way to double up on the de-buff (even if it is for a very very short time). So if I have 3 counters on something that is a 6/6 (now a 3/3) I can clone Toxrill and the 6/6 dies for having -6/-6 at the same time I deal with the Legend Rule. Not necessarily ideal but a cool interaction that does have a practical purpose. The token creation and card draw is just gravy on top.

And finally Hullbreaker Horror. I didn't really have a specific cut in mind for this card, and this and Toxrill does raise the curve a bit, but it seems like too good a card to pass up and can get out of control fast.

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Post by shifthappen1 » 2 years ago

New card that got spoiled and looks like a pretty good fit in here, Mirror Box

It's a cheaper and much improved Mirror Gallery 3cmc, only affects you, and gives +1/+1 to all legendary you control, then another +1/+1 for each other creature you control with the same name

Noclue what you'd cut for it, but it might be worth it!

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Post by WizardMN » 2 years ago

I am definitely going to be picking a couple of them up, but I am not sure about whether I want it here. Copying legendary creatures sounds nice but I only have 7 creatures/planeswalkers in the deck that are Legendary (technically 9 but two are Sakashima that already get around the Legend Rule in their own way). And Spark Double helps as well. While it would certainly allow for copying opponent's creatures a bit more, I don't feel that finding a slot for it makes sense in this deck. At least, not until I really go up the number of Legendary permanents.

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Post by WizardMN » 2 years ago

Here are my thoughts on new cards from Kamigawa: Neon Dynasty:

Blue Cards

Mindlink Mech - Another clone effect though one that does require us to tap down the thing we want to copy. I really like the effect but I don't think there is a lot that I want to be copying here for this to work out all that well.

Thousand-Faced Shadow - Another interesting card that I don't think quite makes the cut. It is a 4 mana clone so about par for the course. It can be "cast" at instant timing so that is better than most. But it can only clone something that is currently in the process of attacking and only on our turn. I think the limitations are just a little too high to make this really shine here.

Black Cards

Junji, the Midnight Sky - Another big beater in a deck that doesn't mind big creatures to copy. And being able to clone it can allow for it to bring back "itself". Interestingly, depending on the clone, this can create a loop thanks to the Legend Rule to bring it back over and over again though this deck doesn't have any real way to exploit that. It isn't something I want to lean into anyway, but it is a neat rules interaction. I might try to find room for it as I like being able to get my clones back.

Colorless and Land Cards

Takenuma, Abandoned Mire - Another way to get back stuff from the yard while also doubling as a land drop as needed. I think it fits into most black decks thanks mostly to entering untapped.

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Post by WizardMN » 1 year ago

Here are my thoughts on cards from Streets of New Capenna:

Black Cards

Shakedown Heavy - I am always on the lookout for new "big" creatures and this might qualify. While I would probably like for it to hit more often than I draw a card, cloning it represents a bit of a conundrum for my opponents where they can save themselves from the multiple Heavies but at the cost of giving me cards. I like the card enough I might give it a shot.

Green Cards

Topiary Stomper - Another 3 mana ramp creature but I don't think it is any better than any of the others I already use. It isn't bad if I want more of that effect but it isn't any better than other options either. Even though it is on a bigger body.

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Post by WizardMN » 1 year ago

Blue Cards

Ancient Silver Dragon - This just ends up being a big creature, which this deck doesn't mind having. 8 mana is a lot though so it is hard to say whether it should be here. The effect is a good one and can do a lot to keep my hand full, but might be on the "win-more" side. More so than I would want anyway.

Elminster's Simulacrum - More clones of things in a clone deck is always fun. I think I want to try this out just to see what it can do. This deck isn't often going to balk at a 6 mana Instant so while it is a bit high, it isn't so high as to be unusable.

Colorless and Land Cards

Dreamroot Cascade, Shipwreck Marsh, Deathcap Glade - These are all pretty good lands. While they aren't the best on Turn 2 and maybe turn 1, they are great from turn 3 onwards. They seem pretty solid in terms of fixing in all but the most aggressive decks and, even then, seem still worthwhile as they are very unlikely to be the only land one keeps.

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Post by WizardMN » 1 year ago

Here are the newest changes I am making to the deck:
6/13/2022
Approximate Total Cost:

Reliquary Tower has always been in a bit of an odd spot and I don't really feel it is necessary. And I couldn't come up with a better cut. The two Islands also felt like the best cuts to make for these new lands.

The cut for the Simulacrum was pretty difficult. With going down some basics, and the fact that Traverse is 5 mana, I just felt like this might be the time to cut it. I don't really know what else I wanted to cut, though Glasspool Mimic // Glasspool Shore came up again. I might come back to the Mimic later but for now I feel Traverse makes the most sense.

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Post by WizardMN » 1 year ago

A few more changes:
8/5/2022
Approximate Total Cost:

Note that Elminster's Simulacrum is not online so this is being cut for Shakedown Heavy for now. I will probably revisit some of this stuff as MTGO is getting more and more out of sync with paper Magic and I don't like that it is dictating my card choices. But for now, it is what it is.

Eureka Moment just seemed like the best other cut to make for now. Takenuma for a Swamp makes sense though that does bring me down to only a single basic Swamp which is not ideal. I might swap this for a different basic later if I feel I need to.

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Post by WizardMN » 1 year ago

With the full spoiler of Dominaria United, here are my thoughts on some of the cards that might make sense in this deck:

Blue Cards

Joint Exploration - This seems like a good way to get some gas late game, and of course ramp early game. I like the card overall and think I want to try to find a spot for it somewhere.

Vesuvan Duplimancy - For a clone deck, this sort of fits into weird spot. I have a few clones that do target but most don't and I don't have a ton of other spells that do target. Still, I might look through the list and see how many spells I really have that target and see if this card can end up working out.

Black Cards

Sheoldred, the Apocalypse - I am not sure if this ends up being that great but it seems like it could. Having 2, 3, or 4 of these out can really make short work on my opponents if they can't get rid of any of them. And she works out well in combat as well which is not nothing. I might try to find a way to get her into this deck.

Green Cards

Silverback Elder - This seems like a great option. All 3 abilities are relevant (though I see the first 2 being used most often) abd the stats are pretty great as well. The 3 green mana requirement is a bit high, but if any color can ensure it has green mana, it is green. I think this makes its way into a lot of my green decks.

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Post by WizardMN » 1 year ago

With the release of the full Brother's War set, I have gone through to determine what cards might be good for this deck. And I didn't really find any. There was the one artifact that could be cast for {2UU} but it wasn't really much better than just straight up Clone so I didn't feel the need to talk about it. I am sure there is something I missed but from what I could tell, nothing stood out as something to include.

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Post by WizardMN » 1 year ago

Here are some further changes I am making to this deck:
11/13/2022
Approximate Total Cost:

Ertai being slotted in over Chupacabra seems like it makes sense. Sure, he offers them a card but he is far more versatile. So I am going to try that out. And Shakedown Heavy was really only here since I didn't want to think too much on what to put in for Elminster's Simulacrum.

Ertai makes sense here and Silverback Elder is a good creature in the middle of the curve that could do a few good things.

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Post by shifthappen1 » 1 year ago

Hey man, its been a while. Here's my current version of this theme:
https://www.moxfield.com/decks/7dtEzaKsYECiZnKyUTbi6g

Still need to test it some more, but there's some restrictions on my end within my playgroup:
1: no tutor that costs 2 cmc or less, except lands
2: no mana rock that cost 2 cmc or less
3: no card that has the words "without paying its mana cost"

Thanks again for sharing your changes and thinking, I really like playing this deck so far, along with my marchesa aikido. never a similar or boring game.

I'm mostly playing with cockatrice until I decide to buy some of those cards, but I also added "reasonable budget" to my rules, cause cards are so expensive :cry:

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Post by Rorseph » 1 year ago

shifthappen1 wrote:
2 years ago
Did you ever think about using Nacatl War-Pride so that you can copy it with Volrath, attack, and copy something else with Volrath as the clone effect triggers?

1 Move to attack phase
2 Clone War-Pride with Volrath
3 Attack
4 With War-Pride Trigger on the stack, clone X with Volrath
5 ?????
6 Profit

Saw this fun interaction as I was browsing for volrath edh.
As someone who knows a thing or two about this interaction, I don't recommend it unless you're only running War Pride by itself for the lulz or you're willing to go all in on it. I've explored that fairly well and trying to do something else with the deck at the same time isn't very effective. I fully support running War Pride by itself because it's just such a ridiculous thing to drop on your friends even without a lot of set up or against a tokens deck.
"From void evolved Phyrexia. Great Yawgmoth, Father of Machines, saw its perfection. Thus The Grand Evolution began."
—Phyrexian Scriptures


Aurelia | Maelstrom Wanderer | Primer: Thassa | Uro | Primer: Volrath

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Post by WizardMN » 1 year ago

@shifthappen1
Very nice list. There is quite a bit of overlap between our lists but obviously some significant differences as well. Mostly in the mana base but I can see why. And I don't blame you for going the way you did with it.

How has Mirage Mirror and Mirrormade been for you? Mirage Mirror is one that I have thought of before but Mirrormade looks like it has two few choices on things to copy.

Mocking Doppelganger is one that I totally missed (mostly due to the amount of sets being released; I just can't keep up). That looks decent though only copying opponents' stuff might be too limiting. In your maybes, I see Body Double and it is one that I am really glad to have in my list. It complements The Mimeoplasm pretty well as a way to reuse our yard (or other yards) without going deep on actual recursion which allows the deck it retain its main identity. Reins of Power seems like a pretty decent card in the right circumstances. I wonder how often it ends up being more dead than you would want though since this deck does want to have a decent presence on board so swapping board states isn't always going to be ideal.

Otherwise, I think your list looks pretty solid. Again, this is mostly because of the similarities in our lists but I like what you have.

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Post by shifthappen1 » 1 year ago

Well, its similar because I based mine off of yours then adjusted a bit to my liking, still need to test it more, could only get 2 games in ever since I modified it, so many of these cards I didnt draw yet.

Mirage Mirror has been an MVP for me in my Queen Marchesa deck, enabled a LOT of things, didnt try it out in volrath yet, but copying something on the go has been pretty good. copying skullclamp, other equipment, creatures without haste that are scary, but since it was already on the board for a while, mine can attack now, copying the biggest badest creature to block a strike from the opponents, its been quite nice. I kinda like having a non permanent option that I can change at will, sorta. once per turn, but still pretty versatile.

Mirrormade I didnt draw yet, but there was a lot of great opportunities so far in the 2 games I played so I wouldn't have been unhappy to copy artifact or enchantment instead of creatures, plus, it can still copy the theros gods to be a creature anyway, and those are rather common.

Mana base is a lot of $$$ so I went for gate theme for budget reason, other cool but expensive cards that I have in the list I test for now, but they are also likely to go away.
We rediscussed the houserules a bit so the rule #3 is most likely going away, so I'll be including diluvian primordial and maybe some other options, not sure yet what I'll swap.

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Post by shifthappen1 » 1 year ago

About Mirage Mirror :

It's just such a good card. In a recent game, made it swap into stuff like solitary confinement during other players turn so I get all the benefit but none of the waste, transform into the most dangerous creature on the board in response to artefact / enchantment removal, thus saving it but also preventing them from attacking, transformed it into wedding ring that 2 other players had to get all the benefit when its their turn, but during my turn its back to the mirror so they get nothing from me, etc.

The versatility is massive. It has it all. The fact that I can choose once per turn, but it can happen at any time, is pretty big. Changing it as I need is really big. Same reason why Volrath is so strong as it can change over and over in a single turn as needed for volrath for just 1, while Mirror is once per turn for 2 but can copy a lot more stuff, very relevant. There's ALWAYS something I an use it for, even if its to save it from removal in response, or just leaving it ready to clone anything and opponents not attacking into me or removing my stuff for fear of me using it against them to waste their effort, which can happens surprisingly easily.

Try it out if you can. the fact that its not a permanent clone and can copy more stuff without any preparation, unlike Volrath, can be a boon, even if you need mana all the time.

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Post by WizardMN » 1 year ago

With the full set spoiled for Phyrexia, All is One, here are some of the cards I am looking at.

Blue Cards

Blade of Shared Souls - I like this card though it is limited. The nice thing about it is that it is only 3 mana for the first copy but after that it is only 2 mana to copy something. Granted, it is only stuff I control and it doesn't give me ETB triggers, but I can see it being useful in certain situations. I think losing out on the ETB triggers is enough to stay away from it for now, but I might look at it later.

Green Cards

Cankerbloom - Based on the interaction with Volrath, this may be worthwhile to add in as a way to deal with Artifacts and Enchantments while also potentially just adding more -1/-1 counters to stuff. I don't plan on going too deep into the Proliferate aspect since I don't actually want creatures with counters to die too often, but this could be useful in the right circumstances. I don't know what makes sense to cut though so that will take some thinking to see if I can even find anything.

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Post by WizardMN » 10 months ago

I am finally getting back into playing so I decided to try this deck out online. I played two games and the first saw two people scoop almost immediately. It was just me against a Child of Alara deck and they seemed to be running basically every tutor. I think they cast 10 different tutors in the first 7 turns. Since they were able to sculpt their hand flawlessly, I had no chance and scooped after giving it a fairly valiant effort.

The next game was a bit better but one person scooped early (presumably they were missing land drops), another scooped a bit later (not really sure why), and so it again was back to me and another person. This time they didn't really let me even play out more than a turn as I cast a Noxious Gearhulk to blow up their Soul Warden (knowing they had an Archangel of Thune in hand I bounced with Sublime Epiphany) and they scooped after this. I only had two Wood Elves on the field along with the Gearhulk and, like I said, they still had the Archangel in hand so it felt a bit premature. Granted, I had quite a bit in hand to keep them under control, including a Cyclonic Rift, but I never got to do much with it.

Since these two games were pretty much busts, I didn't really get a feel for how the deck was performing. And I didn't feel like trying for a third game so I switched decks after this.

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Post by WizardMN » 10 months ago

I played again last night, but this time in person. As such, I don't recall everything that happened but I will try to record the more important points. The game was against Shadrix Silverquill, Lord Windgrace, Krav, the Unredeemed & Regna, the Redeemer partners.

Start of Summary

I started off decently though I kept a risky hand. 3 ramp spells, 2 lands, and no green mana. I ripped a fetch land off the top and was able to ramp decently well though I did sort of peter out a little later on. Lord Windgrace, as expected, ramped way better but even Silverquill got ahead of me eventually.

Because my hand was mostly ramp, I didn't have a lot of action. I did get Volrath down and tried to snipe partners Mother of Goons. They protected it, as expected, but it at least tapped it down. This ended up not being a viable strategy long term since Silverquill cast an Orzhov Advokist which buffed it.

We went on like this for a while without anyone truly getting a foothold. A few potshots here and there but no one was truly the aggressor. If stretched, it could be considered that partners were simply because of Bitterblossom but even that wasn't much.

Finally, Windgrace built up a sizeable board state and partners had Avacyn, Angel of Hope, I ended up copying Avacyn with Volrath, casting Sublime Epiphany to bounce theirs, and then casting Damnation to blow the board. I thought I was in a good position but everyone rebuilt far quicker than I could pressure them. And this was when two people had 2 or fewer cards in hand (all 3 might have been light on cards; I am not sure).

Part of this of course was that Windgrace had his own Damnation which wiped my board. So, we went on a while more to try to rebuild and Windgrace started going off. They eventually got all their lands out of their deck and built up an army fueled mostly from Field of the Dead and Thespian's Stage copying it. They went after Silverquill and I thought we were getting to the end so I countered Silverquill's Inkshield so we could start getting the game over with.

And then another wrath hit....

So, we played another hour after this but Windgrace basically stopped being relevant. They had no more lands so Field of the Dead wasn't doing anything. They likely could have kept cracking fetches to bring back with Windgrace but they never went that route. On the other hand, partners was getting out of control. I had cast Cyclonic Rift (which is what truly ended things for Windgrace) but I was nowhere near actually ending the game. So, when partners swung at me, I dug a bit with some cards and found Evacuation but never cast it because bounce in this game was so irrelevant. It just delayed the inevitable. So, I ended up losing with Windgrace right after. They did have Constant Mists to keep them alive but I think they were in the same mindset of just wanting the game to be over.

End of Summary

So, it was well fought by partners and perhaps we "gave up" a little but it was a grindy game that went on for nearly 3 hours. The game was super fun but it just felt bad each time the board was reset as it put us further and further from ending. I mostly felt bad for "killing" Silverquill though as I really did think the game was about to end.

The two main takeaways from this were: I need a real end game of some sort and Hullbreaker Horror was absolutely terrible in this game. I had it in hand for most of the game and never once cast it because it would do absolutely nothing. Again, bounce just wouldn't do anything as everyone had enough mana to recast everything.

Perhaps I need to look into another real wrath since that likely could have helped me get ahead and there is an argument to be made that Toxrill, the Corrosive would have been a great card to cast but I discarded it in favor of keeping Hullbreaker in hand. Toxrill might have been able to keep things going (though it also might have just died since I probably would have cast it earlier). I even had Takenuma, Abandoned Mire to get it back but used it on something else.

In the end, I believe there may have been some missteps on my part but, really, I think it is because the deck has no real end game. It expects to control the board and swing in for a few damage here or there but that doesn't work when most of the board control is bounce and players can just recast everything again.

I do like the way the deck played and it gave me a lot of cool interactions. So I will think on it and try to find a way to make this a little more threatening somehow;

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Post by pokken » 10 months ago

WizardMN wrote:
10 months ago
In the end, I believe there may have been some missteps on my part but, really, I think it is because the deck has no real end game. It expects to control the board and swing in for a few damage here or there but that doesn't work when most of the board control is bounce and players can just recast everything again.
I think part of this is just the way commander is changing. People are getting better, decks stronger, etc. So when you have the window you really need to close the game out. Even actual sweepers aren't permanent enough to establish serious control in modern EDH (though things like Farewell and Aetherspouts can do it).

I know it's a bit of my go to but I'd think about something like Pathbreaker Ibex - Volrath's ability to become stuff is very good, since you can functionally have a hasted one (and he's also a 6/5). Finale of Devastation is of course pretty ridiculous.

In general, very powerful attack triggers seem like great ways to close the game with Volrath. I'm sure there are some I am missing.

I think adding a Heroic Intervention might be a better choice than adding another wrath though. I've found, through much trial and error, that being the one to dodge a wrath is often better than being the one to wrath.

And of course there's targeted stuff like Aetherspouts, that one's often pretty good.

edit to add: Also Black Sun's Zenith is legit with volrath still imho :)

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Post by WizardMN » 10 months ago

pokken wrote:
10 months ago
WizardMN wrote:
10 months ago
In the end, I believe there may have been some missteps on my part but, really, I think it is because the deck has no real end game. It expects to control the board and swing in for a few damage here or there but that doesn't work when most of the board control is bounce and players can just recast everything again.
I think part of this is just the way commander is changing. People are getting better, decks stronger, etc. So when you have the window you really need to close the game out. Even actual sweepers aren't permanent enough to establish serious control in modern EDH (though things like Farewell and Aetherspouts can do it).
Fair. I am used to wraths being enough but mass bounce especially is just not good enough. Without closing the game immediately anyway, as you said. Aetherspouts is a decent option but I don't like how limited it is in terms of what it can affect: only one player's creatures and only their attackers. I want more to actually clear the board.
I know it's a bit of my go to but I'd think about something like Pathbreaker Ibex - Volrath's ability to become stuff is very good, since you can functionally have a hasted one (and he's also a 6/5). Finale of Devastation is of course pretty ridiculous.

In general, very powerful attack triggers seem like great ways to close the game with Volrath. I'm sure there are some I am missing.
Or, as you are pointing out here, just find a way to close the game. My main issue with Ibex is simply having the board presence to make use of it. I think I maxed out at 5 creatures last night. Though, I suppose, they all would get +7/+7 with Volrath as Ibex so maybe that is enough? At least to tag one person somehow.
I think adding a Heroic Intervention might be a better choice than adding another wrath though. I've found, through much trial and error, that being the one to dodge a wrath is often better than being the one to wrath.
I can see the value of this but I am not sure how far I want to go with this. As the game last night showed, considering I had an Avacyn, Angel of Hope for at least 3 turn cycles, a one-shot Indestructible is less useful than I would like. Hexproof on it is good, but I am almost fine with just rebuilding from a wrath if I need to. Maybe not the greatest mindset all things considered, but I am wary of adding more "support" cards when I likely just need something to close out games. I do admit that if I move into trying to be a little more aggressive, something like Heroic Intervention might be a good call.
And of course there's targeted stuff like Aetherspouts, that one's often pretty good.

edit to add: Also Black Sun's Zenith is legit with volrath still imho :)
I really should just add this. It might not always wrath the board but it works very well with my commander so it isn't a total loss if there are still things that are around after casting it. I think I might need to go through and find out if the creatures on the top end of my curve are enough and then look at getting rid of things like Evacuation and maybe even Kederekt Leviathan (though there are some cool plays with this since I can clone it at instant timing) and cutting things like Hullbreaker Horror and possibly others. Once I figure out what I want to get rid of, it lets me figure out what I have space for.

I wonder if something like Grave Titan wouldn't be bad? As you said, attack triggers work out well with Volrath so finding some other options could be good. Maybe this isn't significant enough though?

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Post by pokken » 10 months ago

WizardMN wrote:
10 months ago
I really should just add this. It might not always wrath the board but it works very well with my commander so it isn't a total loss if there are still things that are around after casting it. I think I might need to go through and find out if the creatures on the top end of my curve are enough and then look at getting rid of things like Evacuation and maybe even Kederekt Leviathan (though there are some cool plays with this since I can clone it at instant timing) and cutting things like Hullbreaker Horror and possibly others. Once I figure out what I want to get rid of, it lets me figure out what I have space for.

I wonder if something like Grave Titan wouldn't be bad? As you said, attack triggers work out well with Volrath so finding some other options could be good. Maybe this isn't significant enough though?
Yeah I think BSZ is the right call.

I also think cutting anything super expensive is worth thinkin on, this deck doesn't really have the spell volume for huge fats like Hullbreaker Horror and doesn't have the Animate Dead loop with Kederekt Leviathan to put the game on blast, so I think I'd cut that too.

I don't hate Grave Titan but I can't help but feel like there's something more explosive these day? 6 mana is just a ton for a deck that isn't ramping that hard and isn't cheating out its creatures.

The real nice thing with Volrath clones is to be cloning other people's stuff and going ham...maybe you could play Bribery and try to get other people's stupid fatties, put a counter on them and copy them?

There might also be stuff like Archfiend of Depravity or whatever that could work, maybe this is a good deck for that? I never had a ton of luck with it

I feel like there was another cool attack trigger guy...Archon of Cruelty? That one is kinda cool. But maybe better to just go for Ibex and a couple ways to tutor it? If you tone the curve top end down a little, maybe you'll have more dudes.

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Post by WizardMN » 10 months ago

pokken wrote:
10 months ago
I don't hate Grave Titan but I can't help but feel like there's something more explosive these day? 6 mana is just a ton for a deck that isn't ramping that hard and isn't cheating out its creatures.

The real nice thing with Volrath clones is to be cloning other people's stuff and going ham...maybe you could play Bribery and try to get other people's stupid fatties, put a counter on them and copy them?
I admit, that is part of my thought as well. I just couldn't think of much else that would add some board presence and aggressiveness to the deck. Maybe Bribery is a good enough addition for this? It would finally give me a reason to use my Bribery if nothing else :P
There might also be stuff like Archfiend of Depravity or whatever that could work, maybe this is a good deck for that? I never had a ton of luck with it

I feel like there was another cool attack trigger guy...Archon of Cruelty? That one is kinda cool. But maybe better to just go for Ibex and a couple ways to tutor it? If you tone the curve top end down a little, maybe you'll have more dudes.
Both of these are ones I thought of and Archfiend might be the better of the two. It controls the board in a good way to ensure things don't get out of hand. I also have never had great luck with it but it seems like a pretty good option so maybe it can work here. And I decided not to even discuss Archon because it only does so much and doesn't do a lot to really close things out. People are going to have plenty of sac fodder for it and it doesn't feel like enough on its own. Maybe cloning it with Volrath is good? But it is also another high cost creature which I don't think I want to go further into.

With all the power creep and big stuff being printed, it is interesting how tight the list wants to be and this really isn't the best deck for just throwing in the biggest stuff.

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