Marchesa, the Black Rose - Reanimator

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Post by WizardMN » 1 year ago

I have been wanting to change up my decks a little bit more and try to add in some different themes across my decks. The three main color combinations I want to try to get decks for are Naya (Hazezon Tamar is the frontrunner here), Temur (not really sure on this yet; maybe Xyris, the Writhing Storm or Miirym, Sentinel Wyrm but nothing truly stands out) and, the combination this thread is about: Grixis.

This thread is more of a starter for now without an actual decklist in mind. I am just trying to get some of my thoughts written down and potentially get suggestions on where to take this. Once I finalize a Commander choice, I will update this post with the decklist.

As of right now, I am looking at the following Commander options, which lead to different builds:

Cecily, Haunted Mage / Eleven, the Mage - This would be focused mostly on a spellslinger/big spells type of build. I probably wouldn't do a lot with X spells but there are plenty of big spells in these colors (or, I assume there are; I haven't actually looked yet) that would allow for quite a bit of use out of the ability. Plus, the Commander helps keep my hand full which is always welcome. The main concern is that going too heavy into the big spells aspect means I can get stuck if/when the Commander is removed. It sounds fun but can falter a bit more easily depending on how heavily I lean into big spells.

Marchesa, the Black Rose - Marchesa would be more geared towards theft and reanimation. The idea would be around using temporary theft effects and sac outlets to permanent steal creatures. And because it requires +1/+1 counters (which Marchesa helps provide) I would want to add in a few more "extra" effects for that. And because I would be doing things around reanimation with Marchesa anyway, I might make it a true reanimation build with things like Reanimate or Goryo's Vengeance depending on how many Legendary creatures I end up with. This list has fewer failure points as it would be less reliant on the commander since the individual pieces can still be good on their own. Not as good, but still good nonetheless.

None others really stand out. Sedris, the Traitor King could fit a reanimation theme but seems just better in another deck if I want to run it at all. Kess, Dissident Mage and Abaddon the Despoiler also seem like they would be good inclusions for a potential Cecily deck, but aren't enticing enough to helm the deck.

It will probably take me a while to get a fleshed out decklist but I am hoping that by starting this thread I will actually get the list built. In the end, I want to come up with 3 new decks total (retiring at least one current deck) and the three mentioned here (Temur, Naya, and Grixis) are among the leading candidates for new deck colors.
Marchesa, the Black Rose

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Post by Ruiner » 1 year ago

For the past few months I've been tinkering with a Kess, Dissident Mage reanimator deck and it's been doing pretty well. Getting to reuse Loot, Reanimate and Entomb effects has come in awfully handy in my experience. If you don't want Kess as your commander, which I get since not every legend has a vibe everyone likes, I'd definitely consider at least putting it in the 99.

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Post by yeti1069 » 1 year ago

I've built two different Kess decks, one reanimator- and one discard-themed. Both played wheels to dig deep and stock the yard, with the commander treating the graveyard as a second hand. The reanimator deck was kind of fun, but very swingy: there are some targets in these colors that have an ENORMOUS impact on the game/draw a ton of hate (and deservedly so).

The discard deck was a proactive control deck in the sense that it played few reactive cards (I ran 0 counterspells). I liked this more, but few others did. One of the things I liked most about this version is that I didn't have any other decks that tread the same territory, whereas I have a few other graveyard recursion/reanimation decks.

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Post by WizardMN » 1 year ago

I think those are very good points on Kess. I want to avoid her as the commander for now partly because I already built a Kess deck way back when and I didn't care for it much. Granted, she is pretty flexible in how she is built so I could easily build her again but in a new way.

I do agree that she deserves a spot in the deck either way. She clearly fits with a spell based deck but reanimator is going to be primarily spell based anyway so she works reasonable well with that as it is.

The idea of playing a more proactive deck is appealing but, at my core, I am a reactive player so I would probably want to lean into that side of things. That is, work on reanimating big things if possible and then protecting that with cheap counterspells where possible.

That is also a good point on reanimator being swingy. Primarily due to opponent reactions more than anything. It paints a huge target when I cast Reanimate for Vilis, Broker of Blood or something. Though, that seems extraordinarily fun to pull off. For me anyway :P

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Post by WizardMN » 1 year ago

First, it looks like Marchesa is getting reprinted in the newest set with some pretty sweet art so that makes my decision a bit easier to go with her.

I think I am going to focus primarily on the reanimation aspect. There are quite a few reanimation spells to use, most at 5 MV unfortunately, but adding in some looting and rummaging effects should make big creatures easy enough to cheat out. I have around 80 cards in the deck so far but that needs to be cut way down as that is almost entirely reanimation spells.

I am going to figure out the best draw/discard spells and then I will need to figure out anything that adds counters to creatures. Mikaeus, the Unhallowed is an easy add as he works exceptionally well with Marchesa but I am sure there are others that will help make a lot of use out of her.

I also want to try to find a bunch of creatures that have ETB triggers if possible. I want to be able to re-use creatures more easily with Marchesa on the field and ETB triggers give me more immediate use beyond just saving the creatures for attacking or their static abilities. But so far, I think I am liking the way the list is shaping up and hopefully I will have something more or less finalized this weekend to try out.

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Post by Ruiner » 1 year ago

Not sure on your budget concerns but I would definitely recommend Sneak Attack. It's been useful in my Kess reanimator deck and I imagine it would be way better with Marchesa in play.

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Post by yeti1069 » 1 year ago

I've definitely found Sneak Attack to be very useful in Marchesa. I only recently took it out to make room for some other stuff, and have had a little less need for it since reducing my curve a bit. It was especially good alongisde Inalla or any of the ETB/wizard trigger doublers with things like Venser, Shaper Savant, who could come out for to bounce a spell or permanent and then bounce himself to do it all over again.

If you're planning on doing a reanimator thing with big creatures it will be even MORE useful.

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Post by Tevesh » 1 year ago

I highly recommend Body Launderer and Unforgiving One as ways to cheat your own Creatures back into action. You'd probably want to have a lot of Looters to put bombs into your 'yard to then cheat, like Benthic Biomancer or Smuggler's Copter.

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Post by WizardMN » 1 year ago

Ruiner wrote:
1 year ago
Not sure on your budget concerns but I would definitely recommend Sneak Attack. It's been useful in my Kess reanimator deck and I imagine it would be way better with Marchesa in play.
yeti1069 wrote:
1 year ago
I've definitely found Sneak Attack to be very useful in Marchesa. I only recently took it out to make room for some other stuff, and have had a little less need for it since reducing my curve a bit. It was especially good alongisde Inalla or any of the ETB/wizard trigger doublers with things like Venser, Shaper Savant, who could come out for to bounce a spell or permanent and then bounce himself to do it all over again.

If you're planning on doing a reanimator thing with big creatures it will be even MORE useful.
I am lucky enough to not really have much for budget concerns. I might still shy away from cards thanks to prices of certain variations, but anything is effectively fair game.

As to Sneak Attack, that seems like it would be tailor made for this type of deck. Allowing me to find a way to cheat things in from the hand or yard diversifies the threats (or, the source of the threats) a little more. It also allows for "Flash"ing creatures with ETB triggers as needed.
Tevesh wrote:
1 year ago
I highly recommend Body Launderer and Unforgiving One as ways to cheat your own Creatures back into action. You'd probably want to have a lot of Looters to put bombs into your 'yard to then cheat, like Benthic Biomancer or Smuggler's Copter.
I think the idea of looters is good, though I would definitely defer to repeatable ones like Copter over Biomancer. Though, Biomancer can be good if I can find enough ways to add counters to my own creatures. Perhaps with a sac outlet and Marchesa, Biomancer ends up being good enough anyway?

I think I have Body Launderer in my list now as it covers the looting and reanimating all in one card. I didn't see Unforgiving in my search earlier but that seems reasonable as well. The main issue I see with both is that they are conditional which suggests the possibility of "whiffing" on stuff. Though, Unforgiving One is repeatable; it too just needs more ways to get counters on things.

And, to be clear, I recognize that Marchesa is a big part of getting counters on things but I don't want everything to be reliant on her being around since it is very likely she gets destroyed fairly often.

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Post by Tevesh » 1 year ago

WizardMN wrote:
1 year ago
Tevesh wrote:
1 year ago
I highly recommend Body Launderer and Unforgiving One as ways to cheat your own Creatures back into action. You'd probably want to have a lot of Looters to put bombs into your 'yard to then cheat, like Benthic Biomancer or Smuggler's Copter.
I think the idea of looters is good, though I would definitely defer to repeatable ones like Copter over Biomancer. Though, Biomancer can be good if I can find enough ways to add counters to my own creatures. Perhaps with a sac outlet and Marchesa, Biomancer ends up being good enough anyway?

I think I have Body Launderer in my list now as it covers the looting and reanimating all in one card. I didn't see Unforgiving in my search earlier but that seems reasonable as well. The main issue I see with both is that they are conditional which suggests the possibility of "whiffing" on stuff. Though, Unforgiving One is repeatable; it too just needs more ways to get counters on things.

And, to be clear, I recognize that Marchesa is a big part of getting counters on things but I don't want everything to be reliant on her being around since it is very likely she gets destroyed fairly often.
Biomancer is repeated; it's every time a +1/+1 Counter is placed on it, whether that's from Adapt or Marchesa's Dethrone.

If you do go with Marchesa, it is imperative to get the Pain Lands to control your Life Total. Also, use the Talismans to further control it and so you can ensure you can control if you're on the Throne or not.

Protecting Marchesa is your top priority, Sage of Fables and Metallic Mimic are two easy ways to make sure she always has a +1/+1 Counter when she comes back. If you're aiming to go hard with Reanimation, I think you might want to look into @plushpenguin's Marchesa Affinity list for ideas. He has built his in a way to never need to attack to get +1/+1 Counters, you might want to crib notes. There's also my Marchesa list that I've been working on for a long time; it's more Weenie Rush than anything else, but before I did the Rush I did try all sorts of strategies before finally settling on that.

If you're OK with leaning less on Reanimation and going more Stealy, I recommend Grenzo, Havoc Raiser and Thief of Sanity. I find the pure Reanimation or pure Theft doesn't quite work out, but a combined arms approach might be good.

I'm too much of a greedy idiot to play it, but Sadistic Hypnotist could be an absolute house, especially with Junji, the Midnight Sky.

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Post by yeti1069 » 1 year ago

Biomancer can get a counter every time you attack w/ Dethrone, and in a few different ways. It's pretty good. I took it out of my list to fit in some other stuff, and because at the time I didn't have enough raw card draw to support the repeated looting. With a reanimator approach, that's not an issue.

Body Launderer is a HOUSE with Marchesa in play! Puts counters on himself from doing what the deck does normally anyway, loots, reanimates stuff, and comes back for more.

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Post by WizardMN » 1 year ago

As mentioned, I realize Marchesa is the primary way for things to get counters (Biomancer included). My concern ultimately ends up being relying on that too much. Or, more specifically I guess, worrying about the fact that Marchesa is going to have a target on her back for most of the game for a lot of different reasons. Perhaps I am simply a little too cautious in regards to this? I still want to find other ways to get counters on things with Unspeakable Symbol being primary among the options. 3 life is a lot but the counter is important (and of course being at lower life is important too).

Body Launderer will certainly be in the first iteration of the deck.

The painlands and Talismans are good calls. It is an interesting dilemma in that I need to constantly make sure I don't have the most life (at least, to a point) but I also need to ensure I don't get too low. Those seem like reasonable options, especially when coupled with the Symbol mentioned above. I will probably try to flesh out the first iteration today or tomorrow and then potentially do some goldfishing online shortly.

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Post by yeti1069 » 1 year ago

The most vulnerability Marchesa has is when she first gets cast, and if she doesn't have a counter or a sac outlet available. Generally, I try not to play her until I can have both of those lined up, but if I have a sac outlet and a decent suite of ETB creatures on the field (especially if they are card advantage pieces) I may play out Marchesa to swing with the team, get counters, and sac for value while hoping no one has removal immediately.

If you look at some decks, you'll see they mostly play a few ways to put counters on creatures outside of combat, particularly the commander.

In terms of pain, I like having a variety of ways to pay life when needed, but the deck needs a couple tutorable ways to gain that life back. I have Trinket Mage and Shadowspear, and Blood Artist. I like this better than, say, Zulaport Cutthroat because I can target myself with the triggers to keep my life from changing if a situation calls for that, while also allowing me to force down one life total and leave another in range of dethrone.

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Post by WizardMN » 1 year ago

I've updated the First Post with a decklist. This is not even close to being finalized as I am missing some key pieces and I have too many cards, but I am still working on making cuts. There is a very real issue with balancing the reanimation (or other "Cheat" cards) with the threats I am trying to get onto the field. The list above is missing almost all 5 mana reanimation spells because there are so many and I think they mostly aren't good enough. This deck is going to have a slight issue with ramp that I have also not addressed with the list above so I will be trying to do something with that later as well.

Importantly, not all suggestions so far are implemented for a variety of reasons.

But at least things are sort of coming together. And I am looking forward to getting it done to at least test it out as this seems like a pretty fun deck to try to play.


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Post by WizardMN » 1 year ago

I think I had Forge of Heroes but missed Forum and Palace so I will certainly be adding them in there eventually.

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Post by WizardMN » 1 year ago

Things have been slow going for a variety of reasons but I had some additional time to continue this build. I still don't have it down to 100 cards yet (only 40 more to cut :( ) but it is moving in the right direction. During this latest iteration, I removed anything that relied on getting creatures from opponents. This removes the theft aspect as well as removing anything that reanimated creatures in graveyards other than my own or stealing cards from hands. This tightens up the focus a bit while also trimming down on cards in the list which I desperately need. I also went down quite a few reanimation spells for myself but I think I still have a lot left over. I don't really know the ratio of reanimation and big stuff to reanimate and I really kind of want this to be a "big creature" deck that I don't get to play in most other decks thanks to mana curve concerns so cutting higher mana value cards is a bit harder here.

In any case, the list in the first post has been updated with the current list. As mentioned, I still have 40 or so cards to cut but this completes the mana base (on a basic level anyway) and once I can figure out what else to cut, I will finally have a playable list I can start testing out in order to tweak further.

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Post by yeti1069 » 1 year ago

I don't think most of the 5 mana reanimates are worth it. The discount on just casting the creature tends to matter less and less as the reanimation spell's cost gets closer to the CMC of the target

Don't forget Stitch Together, which can be decent, especially if you're self-milling or looting a lot. Also, since you're helmed by Marchesa you can run your team into blockers to get threshold, cast this, then get the team back at EOT.

Blood for Bones is probably going to be good here. Any of the spells that have you sacrifice as a cost are going to be better here than most other places, since you expect to get any of your dudes with a +1/+1 counter on them back.

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Post by WizardMN » 1 year ago

That is a fair point. Maybe I will just cut all of the 5 mana ones for now and see where that leaves me. I know a few have discounts of their own (the 6 mana one has Convoke for example) but I need to make cuts somewhere. I did leave Ever After for now since it does get me back two things. That might still be a mistake, but it seems pretty good.

I did forget about that so good call on Stitch Together. It is a bit conditional but probably not so much as to really matter. Blood For Bones reminds me of another sac outlet: Plumb the Forbidden. It doesn't reanimate but seems like it could be pretty good here to ensure my hand remains full. I don't have the room for it now, but I might come back to it. I think this deck primarily wants looting and rummaging effects but a way to instant timing sac my board, and keep my life total low if needed, seems alright.

I didn't add Blood For Bones either thanks to not having the space. I will keep it in mind as I playtest to determine what I can cut to make room for it and/or more big creatures. Current decklist has been updated and is down to 100 cards so I can at least start testing. Worth noting, I feel my creature count is a little low at 27 so I will probably be trying to find places to crank those up for some big scary monsters (Hullbreaker Horror seems top of the list to add).

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Post by WizardMN » 1 year ago

I updated the decklist in the first post. I made a few more changes for now by cutting Unearth (not enough targets) along with Ponder and Preordain in favor of things like Cathartic Reunion, Thrill of Possibility, and Chart a Course. While these are 1 mana more, they also allow me to fill the yard a bit easier which becomes very important. I also cut Rescue from the Underworld and Beacon of Unrest as a couple more 5 mana reanimation spells. I really didn't want to cut Rescue but I needed some way to test other things and it made the most sense.

Finally, just to make space, I cut Repository Skaab. Not sure I like this cut but it was the best I could think of. The other cards added were Drowned Rusalka as a test and Thirst for Meaning as another discard outlet but one that lets me draw first. I also added a land in Command Tower.

I am not sure whether this is where I want to be and the Rusalka and seems like it makes a lot of sense here but might not play out that great in practice. I am still trying to tweak the list when I have time and I will run this through a few more playtests to see what happens but they feel like alright changes.

On a sidenote: I did find MTGO seems to have a bug with Double Faced Cards as it let me add Suspicious Stowaway // Seafaring Werewolf to the list before I realized it was green on the back face. That seemed like a pretty good card for this deck so it was a bit disappointing to realize it wasn't legal (and weird that MTGO didn't stop me).

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Post by WizardMN » 1 year ago

With the full spoiler of Dominaria United, here are my thoughts on some of the cards that might make sense in this deck:

With the full spoiler of Dominaria United, here are my thoughts on some of the cards that might make sense in this deck:

Black Cards

The Cruelty of Gix - This is interesting. At worst, it is a 5 mana reanimate which is pretty standard (even bordering on a little expensive compared to other options) but the second Chapter to tutor something up as well moves it into a pretty good spot. I think this is worth trying out at least in this deck to see what it can do, even if the cost is a bit high. I will almost certainly never have it enter with 1 counter.

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Post by WizardMN » 1 year ago

With the release of the full Brother's War set, I have gone through to determine what cards might be good for this deck. And I didn't really find any. I am guessing there might have been something I missed but the only real reanimation spell was worse than a lot of others I am already not including and none of the creatures stood out as something worth including.

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Post by Tevesh » 1 year ago

If you just want Looters (I'm guessing because of you wanting to include Suspicious Stowaway // Seafaring Werewolf) there's Looter il-Kor. Though I'd be remiss to not mention Smuggler's Copter; it does some serious work. Loots early game, gives you something to do with summon sick monsters, dodges wraths and becomes surprisingly beefy into mid-late game.

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Post by WizardMN » 1 year ago

That is a pretty good idea. I like Copter in my Sygg deck quite a bit (though the 3 power is quite relevant there) and I think having some looters make sense. I don't want to go too high as they tend to be very underpowered outside the looting. Looter il-Kor seems like a fine addition as well. It is effectively unblockable which means it is repeatable fairly easily. I will look at both of those to see where I can fit them in. I definitely like Copter over Looter but I will see where each falls in testing.

I am updating this list a little slower than others as I am still trying to find time to get back into Magic in general and other decks are taking priority. But I am hoping to get mostly caught up on everything this week and play 1 or 2 games online with every deck so I can really get a feel for everything. So, I should have an update later in the week and I will definitely be trying out those couple of cards.

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Post by WizardMN » 1 year ago

With the full set spoiled for Phyrexia, All is One, here are some of the cards I am looking at.

Black Cards

Black Sun's Twilight - A 6 mana Reanimate is tough to justify but one that is Instant and staped to removal is tempting. I don't think it is all that much better than Yawgmoth's Vile Offering but I could see the appeal of Instant timing over Sorcery. For now, I think I pass on it but I might revisit it once I get this deck a little closer to actually being "complete".

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