[Official] State of Modern Thread (B&R 07/13/2020)

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drmarkb
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Post by drmarkb » 1 year ago

I guess flickering stuff is popular in Edh, so I don't expect movement.
Part of the reason white has been so screwed historically is 'can't be cast' (as opposed to taxes), humility effects and mass land destruction have been frowned upon by the edh community, whilst 'interaction' means more 'hide behind' things are able to be removed, alongside a proliferation of 'each opponent' effects that conveniently circumvent whites' 'can't be targetted' mechanic.
In short, EDH screwed white, because white basically said 'no', and EDH players don't like 'no'.

Draft is another consideration blinking is an established archetype in many formats.
I would like to see evoke changed as stifle effects just don't cut it as counterplay at 2 mana, and the best humility costs 2.
We are probably at peak Leylines, they cannot print too many more, so again very limited on counterplay.

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Post by iTaLenTZ » 1 year ago

The main problem with Modern is how extremely efficient and streamlined every deck has become. Too many decks are playing Wrenn and T3feri in the same deck, combined with efficient removal like Binding, Bolt, Ending. Slam some free spells like FoN, Elementals, perhaps a companion and its just too much. Some use Creativity as a win condition, others cascade or Breach but the core is mainly the same. The rest of the meta is just trying to cheat someway or the other to beat these decks. BR Scam, Murktide, Hammertime, Yagwmoth and Titan. Murktide is the fairest of them all playing broken stuff like IE, Ragavan, DRC and Murktide, thus that says a lot. All decks are either combo/control or combo/aggro. Just the backup plan is different if they don't get their 'oops I win button'.

Hate cards have become anti-hate cards. Force of Vigor was meant to counter artifact and enchantment decks, not to destroy Leyline of the Void and Stoney Silence, Force of Negation was meant so control had a better matchup against big decks, but instead it has made combo better because you can now protect it better, Elementals are destroying the fair decks while they were meant to help them fight the unfair decks, and so on. You can't play any hate bear or mana dork because of Fury and Solitude. All fair decks have disappeared. Only Ragavan is doing what its supposed to be doing, punishing uninteractive decks (coming from someone who despises the card), There is a much bigger design problem pestering Modern mostly due to Horizons having the adverse effect.

Playing 4/5c without any downsides = Huge problem
Combining Wrenn with T3feri without any downside = Huge problem
Flickering Elementals = Huge problem
Fury and Solitude keeping fair creature decks out of the meta = Huge problem
Combo being too strong because of free anti-hate spells = Huge problem

Edit: I am afraid of Phyrexian Fleshgorger. It will power up BR scam and other flicker/Elemental decks to even bigger heights.

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pierreb
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Post by pierreb » 1 year ago

Just errata evoke to have split-second.

That being said, I agree with iTalenTZ that the problems are that answers have become answers to answers and multi-colors is too easy and not punishable.

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AvalonAurora
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Post by AvalonAurora » 1 year ago

The meta is really diverse right now, at least by WotC's normal metrics, it doesn't look healthy if you look at the decks themselves, and how well more reasonable decks can do in this meta. I think there has been serious problems with recent card design in terms of the health of various formats. Too much stuff is 'cheating' (on things like mana costs and card advantage) too hard with too many of the wrong upsides and too cheap/efficient/advantageous downsides (or 'downsides') and such. Too little respect for fair mono-color deck potential. Bad handling of punisher cards and often even worse aim of them, or lack of them for certain things that need it. And it doesn't look like this is going to be fixed any time soon, so I suspect the kind of modern we have now is likely here to stay, and someone looking for something more like the older modern may have to look for other formats.

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Post by motleyslayer » 1 year ago

pierreb wrote:
1 year ago
Just errata evoke to have split-second.

That being said, I agree with iTalenTZ that the problems are that answers have become answers to answers and multi-colors is too easy and not punishable.
I think this would be very reasonable and would make the format MUCH more fun

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Simto
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Post by Simto » 1 year ago

Forgive my stupidity, but what would it do giving them split second? as in split second instead of evoke? I thought split second was a kinda of hyper-instant?

And on a different note. Looking at various decks on goldfish.. I still really like that gruul midrange deck. It's so cool and it feels kinda old school too. Kinda like one of the last remnants of pre modern horizons (even though it uses a couple of them)
It's funny how when I got back into Magic around late 2016. Any time a new card was good enough for modern I was like "wow they're using a new card, it must be sick!" and now I'm like "Wow they're using the old card!? It must be sick!"

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AvalonAurora
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Post by AvalonAurora » 1 year ago

Simto wrote:
1 year ago
Forgive my stupidity, but what would it do giving them split second? as in split second instead of evoke? I thought split second was a kinda of hyper-instant?
It would prevent them from flickering to maintain the evoke critter, because it would stop new stuff from entering the stack before they are sacrificed by the evoke if the evoke also had split-second.

One problem I could see with it is it essentially making them uncounterable when evoked though.

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Post by Simto » 1 year ago

AvalonAurora wrote:
1 year ago
Simto wrote:
1 year ago
Forgive my stupidity, but what would it do giving them split second? as in split second instead of evoke? I thought split second was a kinda of hyper-instant?
It would prevent them from flickering to maintain the evoke critter, because it would stop new stuff from entering the stack before they are sacrificed by the evoke if the evoke also had split-second.

One problem I could see with it is it essentially making them uncounterable when evoked though.
Ah ok I get it now hehe, thanks. That would tame them a bit.

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Post by MAGUSZANIN » 1 year ago

AvalonAurora wrote:
1 year ago
Simto wrote:
1 year ago
Forgive my stupidity, but what would it do giving them split second? as in split second instead of evoke? I thought split second was a kinda of hyper-instant?
It would prevent them from flickering to maintain the evoke critter, because it would stop new stuff from entering the stack before they are sacrificed by the evoke if the evoke also had split-second.

One problem I could see with it is it essentially making them uncounterable when evoked though.
If the split second clause only applied to the Evoke trigger it wouldn't make them uncounterable because the Evoke trigger doesn't happen until they already resolved as a spell. It would also mean the opponent can't respond to their trigger by getting things out of the yard before Endurance resolves or sacrificing the creature targeted by Solitude.

Applying Split second to the spell on the stack would just make them flat out better and not do what you want it to anyway.

But yeah, split second on the trigger would make them less abusable for the person playing them for sure for sure.

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Ed06288
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Post by Ed06288 » 1 year ago

The meta isn't bad in the sense that it has a Hogaak or Eye of Ugin wrecking the format. But cards like Wrenn and Six (and others) remind me of Deathrite Shaman before its ban in legacy.

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Post by motleyslayer » 1 year ago

Won a 9 person RCQ with Rakdos Scam to get my invite and the playmat.
R1 got the bye

R2 beat Titan 2-0, g1 he conceded to a t1 grief because his hand was so bad. G2 just kept putting pressure on.

R3 beat murktide 2-1. G1 he ran me over. G2 he kept a loose hand which I ripped apart. G3 I got a t1 grief to rip his hand apart

R4 lost to my buddy on hammer. I probably could have scooped him in but I played it out

I finished first in Swiss and they decided to give the invites out to top 4 after Swiss instead of doing top 8 playoff because it was only 9 people

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Post by iTaLenTZ » 1 year ago

Ed06288 wrote:
1 year ago
The meta isn't bad in the sense that it has a Hogaak or Eye of Ugin wrecking the format. But cards like Wrenn and Six (and others) remind me of Deathrite Shaman before its ban in legacy.
If Wrenn stays legal then DRS should be unbanned. DRS could even be a counter to Wrenn. The meta is stale and boring. It consists of only 4 decks who's powerlevel is so much higher than the rest it leaves little room for innovation. The meta is solved. UR aggro, 4/5 Creativity, BR Scam and Hammertime.

The real question is: Is the format fun?

Lets say you play anything else that is not tier 1. How much fun are you going to have fighting off turn 1 Ragavan's , turn 2 Wrenn into perfect mana for the rest of the game and CA, followed by turn 3 Teferi into multiple Archons later on, getting stomped by Hammertime going through 2-3 removal spells because they have so much protection and resiliency and playing non-games after getting Griefed on turn 1 with undying. You can tweek your deck to beat 1 of them but trying to have a competeable matchup against all 4 is impossible because they attack from so many different angles. I don't expect to have a good or winnable matchup against all decks. There are good and bad matchups but I want to feel at least I am competing. A bad matchup shouldn't be 10-90 but 40-60.

Maybe the game is fun if you play one of the 4 top tier decks. If not then the chances are high your day will be miserable and you will most possibly not return to Modern for some time.

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Post by Simto » 1 year ago

Modern is the most fun Magic for me when you disregard tier 1 decks and just pick some of the more "fun" tier 2-3-4 type decks. I haven't played fnm since early 2019, but my local meta was 90% of those types of decks, making it very fun. Every game was different and often times very close. Lots of back and forth. Just how it should be.

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Post by Ed06288 » 1 year ago

It's rare I see rogue decks anymore at the local level. And the general public's lack of outrage towards MH2 is completely baffling to me.

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Post by Simto » 1 year ago

Ed06288 wrote:
1 year ago
It's rare I see rogue decks anymore at the local level. And the general public's lack of outrage towards MH2 is completely baffling to me.
Could be a lot of people have accepted it's just how things are now. The top meta is pretty diverse, but it's basically still the same cards over and over in those diverse decks. I guess it just shows the power level of the top cards since they work in so many different types of decks.

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Post by iTaLenTZ » 1 year ago

There is a lof of outrage towards MH2 but most people have accepted things are what they are and moved on. Speaking of myself I am tired of bashing Modern. I basically stopped playing the format 2 years ago, except very exceptional occasions I play an FNM, because I didn't like the direction they were taking it. Modern lost a lot of veterans but also gained a lot of new players with Horizons. Also lets not pretend Modern was in a great spot before Horizons.

The LotR set will be the next reset/cycle point for Modern. Then in 1,5 years we will get Horizons 3 which will again reset the format. However this approach from Wotc isn't sustainable. You can't keep powercreeping Modern and the game in general. I feel they are running out of design space really fast by pushing so much product and powerceep. This game has survived for 30 years but how many more years will it stay? Maybe at some point in the future they need to redefine all formats. Maybe in 5 years Pioneer is the biggest format and Modern is slowly phased out like Legacy once was.

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Post by motleyslayer » 1 year ago

I feel that with how much the MH cards warp modern, the power creep associated with the sets can be worrisome. Even though I still really enjoy modern as a format, it'll be interesting to see the design space they use with future mh sets

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Post by Simto » 1 year ago

I just miss when cool decks like Mardu Pyromancer were viable. Simpler times. Life was so much better. Only a few years ago.

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Post by motleyslayer » 1 year ago

mardu pyro was a deck I had reasonable success with, deck was pretty fun. Although I actually enjoy playing the decks I've been playing lately in rakdos scam and izzet murk

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Post by Simto » 1 year ago

I didn't play it myself, but my best friend did. He's always been into mardu colours and that deck was just fun to play against and also watch. I really liked the idea and concept of the deck. I don't know what it would take to make a deck like that viable again or if it would even be possible. It would likely be 90% new cards and I'm sure some other broken stuff would pop up if Faithless Looting was unbanned. Mardu Pyromancer was a deck that used faithless looting, but not in a broken way. I wish modern had more of those decks and that meta again.
I was a big fan of Pioneer as a concept and should be more of that style, but I just find it boring and weak compared to modern. That middle ground that was my favourite spot doesn't exist anymore.

I can see izzet murk being pretty interactive and one of the more fun decks in the current top meta.

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Post by drmarkb » 1 year ago

Well people moaned for years about things being not interactive, now they moan about the elementals, that by and large interact with their opponent's stuff and are everywhere. We used to have permanents that some decks can't hit, now because people "want to play" it doesn't matter a rat's arse what the permanent is. Enchantment, critter, walker- we can basically deal with everything, all the time. No more blanking all your opponent's removal by going creatureless, no more loading up on one type of permanent hoping to overload removal because newsflash- sweepers exist for everything in nice modal cards. Modern is ok for what it is, but it is, by and large, as it always was, a one size doesn't quite fit anyone format. It just looks different from the outside.

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Post by AvalonAurora » 1 year ago

drmarkb wrote:
1 year ago
Well people moaned for years about things being not interactive, now they moan about the elementals, that by and large interact with their opponent's stuff and are everywhere. We used to have permanents that some decks can't hit, now because people "want to play" it doesn't matter a rat's arse what the permanent is. Enchantment, critter, walker- we can basically deal with everything, all the time. No more blanking all your opponent's removal by going creatureless, no more loading up on one type of permanent hoping to overload removal because newsflash- sweepers exist for everything in nice modal cards. Modern is ok for what it is, but it is, by and large, as it always was, a one size doesn't quite fit anyone format. It just looks different from the outside.
I'd argue that the elementals are too good, even if what we had before in some areas wasn't good enough. There was a strong reason to have increased amounts of modern viable stronger modal removal that wasn't dead when it's primary target wasn't around, but the target mana costs for that kind of thing were more like 2 and 3 cmc, not alternate to mana costs. Some better 1 cmc stuff was needed as well, but not quite as good as some of what we've gotten, instead, more options were needed there each with their own strengths and weaknesses, rather than as universally effective stuff as we've gotten at that cmc, stuff to shift around based on the meta or between maindeck and sideboard, but most of that kind of stuff now would just have strictly better options either way with some of what they've released.

I think WotC has proven bad at finding the 'sweet spot' of what makes a good Modern card, and is way too aggressive with non-mana alternate costs for stuff, when they hit the sweet spot, they hit it very well, with stuff like Archmage's Charm, but all too often they seem to go overboard, or unnecessarily far underboard even for limited balance purposes. It gives me the impression that the people designing sets like Modern Horizons don't actually pay all that much attention to the modern metagame or play all that much modern, nor that they care all that much about modern.

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Post by Ed06288 » 1 year ago

The meta would actually be pretty good if we could ban some of the MH2 stuff. Merfolk is still hanging around, Titanshift is making a comeback, and Mono-Black Coffers is a deck that's trying to gain traction. It's just too easy to gain card advantage off of some of the newer cards that other strategies get pushed out. And it's not like I think all of MH2 is bad, I think Cabal Coffers and Counterspell and Vindicate are cool cards.

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Post by motleyslayer » 1 year ago

I feel that every so often, different strategies will come up to challenge the top decks but will come up short. Creativity, Yawg, Titan, Shadow etc. I'd still like to see some kind of errata to evoke so it can't be abused as bad

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Post by iTaLenTZ » 1 year ago

It was pretty much set in stone nothing would change until January. I am curious to see what they will do. Modern has been a 3-4 deck format for the past 6 months now. It is clear something needs to happen to break open the meta and reduce the impact of MH2. I am expecting announcements in the following weeks.

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