Unreleased and New Card Discussion

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Ruiner
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Post by Ruiner » 1 year ago

BeneTleilax wrote:
1 year ago
Attractions are going to be the same, as there's no game cost, everyone *should* run an Attraction-board. And unlike Dungeons, they're actual cards, not tokens, so people will need to track down the rare ones. It's most of what I dislike about wishboards but slathered in forced, un-set wackiness. You can say it won't be compulsory, but in my experience deckbuilding threads tend to optimize slots pretty ruthlessly, not really for power, but just to pick at technically-worse inclusions. Back when Thought Vessel was $10 card, I saw a lot of people saying everyone should swap their everflowing chalices for it "Just in case someone plays a big table-wide draw spell when your hand is full", and I can't see why "just in case you should run an Attraction pile" would be any different.
Have there been any generally useful possible future staples that involve Attractions?

Outside of maybe utilizing them for artifact deck synergy, I haven't seen any real big uses other than for fun or in a dedicated Attraction oriented deck.

I might still throw together a pile just in case my Sakashima clone deck gets some dumb opportunities from opponents, but otherwise I'm not seeing a huge need to get them so far.

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Post by Hermes_ » 1 year ago

DirkGently wrote:
1 year ago
@Ruiner I'd imagine for a dedicated initiative deck that's probably true, but mostly when I've played against it it's been incidental initiative cards thrown in there. Part of that may be that my meta is jank. People suck at keeping track of their triggers already so adding initiative is a minefield between tracking who has it, where everyone is in the dungeon, and when to actually do the things in the dungeon. Usually it ends up falling on me, but when I'm already tracking 2/3 of the table's triggers, needing to track everyone's triggers for initiative is a massive annoyance. Ofc it's less bad if the people you play against are more competent.

But saying it's "no harder to track than Monarch" is a bizarre claim. It's monarch PLUS dungeons, itself a complex mechanic that's easy to lose track of. Plus it has weirder timings than monarch.

Moving multiple pieces along a single, normal-sized dungeon is a pretty tight fit. Having a double-sized dungeon card is a lot easier, or if everyone has their own. Still, "I play a random common, so now I have to distribute bingo cards to everyone that they have to track for the rest of the game" is dumb. It's dumb and I hate it.
Honestly sounds like a part of your dislike is your playgroup issues lol
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DirkGently
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Post by DirkGently » 1 year ago

Hermes_ wrote:
1 year ago

Honestly sounds like a part of your dislike is your playgroup issues lol
That is literally what I said, yes, but it's far from all of it.

Also I've played a lot of places and nowhere does everyone always remember their triggers. Especially triggers created by someone else's stupid card.
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Post by Dunadain » 1 year ago

Ruiner wrote:
1 year ago
BeneTleilax wrote:
1 year ago
Attractions are going to be the same, as there's no game cost, everyone *should* run an Attraction-board. And unlike Dungeons, they're actual cards, not tokens, so people will need to track down the rare ones. It's most of what I dislike about wishboards but slathered in forced, un-set wackiness. You can say it won't be compulsory, but in my experience deckbuilding threads tend to optimize slots pretty ruthlessly, not really for power, but just to pick at technically-worse inclusions. Back when Thought Vessel was $10 card, I saw a lot of people saying everyone should swap their everflowing chalices for it "Just in case someone plays a big table-wide draw spell when your hand is full", and I can't see why "just in case you should run an Attraction pile" would be any different.
Have there been any generally useful possible future staples that involve Attractions?

Outside of maybe utilizing them for artifact deck synergy, I haven't seen any real big uses other than for fun or in a dedicated Attraction oriented deck.

I might still throw together a pile just in case my Sakashima clone deck gets some dumb opportunities from opponents, but otherwise I'm not seeing a huge need to get them so far.
I don't know the more I think about it "Lifetime" Pass Holder might do stuff. A one mana 2/1 that provides card advantage reminds me of a certain red monkey... Add to that the possibility of it coming back after it dies and the fact that it goes well in multiples and I could see some black tempo deck playing it.

Obviously, Ragavan, Nimble Pilferer is way better than "Lifetime" Pass Holder but it seems like people are always saying that mechanics won't see play, but both the monarch and the initiative have found play. Heck, Paradox Zone was unironically a sideboard card in legacy for a hot minute (only a couple months, then Boseiju, Who Endures got printed) and if I hadn't seen that with my two eyes I wouldn't have believed that could ever happen.

So the whole "who cares if a card mechanic is problematic, no one is going to play it anyways" argument has never really convinced me
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Post by BeneTleilax » 1 year ago

"Lifetime" Pass Holder might well go into aristo and zombie decks as a one drop recursive zombie that enables gravecrawler well. Thankfully, in my experience tribal pilots care more about thematic cohesion than most. Also, at this point both people who've said attraction decks aren't necessary have now also said they will make at least one attraction deck to have on hand "just in case".

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Post by Ruiner » 1 year ago

BeneTleilax wrote:
1 year ago
"Lifetime" Pass Holder might well go into aristo and zombie decks as a one drop recursive zombie that enables gravecrawler well. Thankfully, in my experience tribal pilots care more about thematic cohesion than most. Also, at this point both people who've said attraction decks aren't necessary have now also said they will make at least one attraction deck to have on hand "just in case".
I don't think it's a must have, but I suspect it'll be a low cost investment if I feel like bothering with it.

I'm all for giving stuff with it a shot myself as well. I just haven't sat down to look at (legal) cards that utilize the mechanic and how they may or may not fit in any of my decks.

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Post by Dunadain » 1 year ago

I don't know, more I think about it, the more I'm down with attractions, the whole sperate deck is a problem, don't get me wrong, but it's interesting enough.

Stickers still seem dumb and you can't change my mind.
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Post by duducrash » 1 year ago

I fee like if stickers were in Ikoria 2.0 as counters we wouldnt complain as much tbh

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Post by DirkGently » 1 year ago

duducrash wrote:
1 year ago
I fee like if stickers were in Ikoria 2.0 as counters we wouldnt complain as much tbh
Maybe if Ikoria 2.0 also came with new companions and they reversed the rule change I'd be okay with it :D

Conceptually stickers (at least the p/t and textbox ones) are mostly fine - you modify cards by spending nu-energy, in ways more complex than abilities counters. Okay, fine. What I dislike a lot is the logistics of needing a whole pile of sticker sheets just to run one sticker card, physically sticking the sticker onto the card, eventually losing the stickiness of said sticker, making sure all the stickers get returned to the correct sticker sheet after every game, etc. It's just an ugly mess logistically imo.
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Post by Hermes_ » 1 year ago

DirkGently wrote:
1 year ago
duducrash wrote:
1 year ago
I fee like if stickers were in Ikoria 2.0 as counters we wouldnt complain as much tbh
Maybe if Ikoria 2.0 also came with new companions and they reversed the rule change I'd be okay with it :D

Conceptually stickers (at least the p/t and textbox ones) are mostly fine - you modify cards by spending nu-energy, in ways more complex than abilities counters. Okay, fine. What I dislike a lot is the logistics of needing a whole pile of sticker sheets just to run one sticker card, physically sticking the sticker onto the card, eventually losing the stickiness of said sticker, making sure all the stickers get returned to the correct sticker sheet after every game, etc. It's just an ugly mess logistically imo.
For once I am in agreement with you on this, my group was talking about the last unset and how mainly just one player made a busted X from unstable deck on the other hand another player had a Baron Von Count deck and it was fun to play against.

I've run selected uncards but that was after asking my group and I expect it will be the same this time around. One player will make a deck run it once and that will be that.
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Post by Mookie » 1 year ago

So... is it just me, or is Pair o' Dice Lost missing a 'nonland' clause? Seems mildly abusable. At the very least, it's an instant-speed Restock with some impressive flexibility. I don't think it beats out Seasons Past as my 'big recursion spell' of choice, but certainly worth consideration.

Also: Form of the Approach of the Second Sun made me laugh.

I'll also give Standard Procedure a shout as a not-a-wish. It looks extremely abusable, and I'm glad it isn't actually legal, since it would definitely be a format staple. Paying one mana to not-wish up Negate // Infernal Grasp // Return to Nature // Wash Away // Dig Up // Croaking Counterpart // Alchemist's Gambit // Even the Score // Path of Peril seems... strong.

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Post by Hermes_ » 1 year ago

Mookie wrote:
1 year ago
So... is it just me, or is Pair o' Dice Lost
Our LGS was named pair o' dice so that card hurts lol
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Post by Dunadain » 1 year ago

Mookie wrote:
1 year ago
So... is it just me, or is Pair o' Dice Lost missing a 'nonland' clause? Seems mildly abusable. At the very least, it's an instant-speed Restock with some impressive flexibility. I don't think it beats out Seasons Past as my 'big recursion spell' of choice, but certainly worth consideration.

Also: Form of the Approach of the Second Sun made me laugh.

I'll also give Standard Procedure a shout as a not-a-wish. It looks extremely abusable, and I'm glad it isn't actually legal, since it would definitely be a format staple. Paying one mana to not-wish up Negate // Infernal Grasp // Return to Nature // Wash Away // Dig Up // Croaking Counterpart // Alchemist's Gambit // Even the Score // Path of Peril seems... strong.
Thing about seasons past is it doesn't exile itself.

Better comparison is, as you said, Restock

Personally, Once and Future is just better but I suppose if you're dumping a lot of lands in the yard.

Oh, it's also another reload for Borborygmos Enraged laser. Which may be the most toxic deck I've ever brewed.
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Post by DirkGently » 1 year ago

A few other applications:

Restocking a ton of 0-cost artifacts for some sort of artifact storm deck (admittedly not usually a green thing).
Restocking a bunch of X-spells for Zaxara, the Exemplary, Rosheen Meanderer, or Magus Lucea Kane.

Probably not great but it has some applications. You've gotta be expecting to get a lot more than just 2 cards for it to be remotely in consideration, Restock hasn't been good in forever and this one isn't as reliable, even if it is an instant.
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Post by 5colorsrainbow » 1 year ago

DirkGently wrote:
1 year ago
. Okay, fine. What I dislike a lot is the logistics of needing a whole pile of sticker sheets just to run one sticker card, physically sticking the sticker onto the card, eventually losing the stickiness of said sticker, making sure all the stickers get returned to the correct sticker sheet after every game, etc. It's just an ugly mess logistically imo.
You could just use the paper strips option then. Double checked and the rules even say you don't need to own any physical sticker sheets either if you wanna use paper.
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Post by DirkGently » 1 year ago

5colorsrainbow wrote:
1 year ago
You could just use the paper strips option then. Double checked and the rules even say you don't need to own any physical sticker sheets either if you wanna use paper.
Explain exactly how this option is supposed to work.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
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Post by TheAmericanSpirit » 1 year ago

DirkGently wrote:
1 year ago
5colorsrainbow wrote:
1 year ago
You could just use the paper strips option then. Double checked and the rules even say you don't need to own any physical sticker sheets either if you wanna use paper.
Explain exactly how this option is supposed to work.
1. Take a standard 8×10 sheet of loose leaf paper. Using the lines on the sheet as a guide, fold and tear the paper in half length-wise so you have two sheets (likely you will only need one, but having a second ready is good prep).

2. Now, take your first half sheet and go to the offending player who introduced stickers into the game state and ask to see their sticker deck.
Select one card at random.

3. Using your random sticker sheet, copy all names and abilities onto individual lines on the looseleaf, leaving one line space between each and at least the bottom third of the sheet empty.

4. Carefully tear the name/ability section off and separate them, then take the remaining third of the paper and fold it into three sections like a trifold posterboard. In each of these sections, draw a quick but recognizable rendition of the art stickers on the sticker sheet and then separate them.

5. Now, return the actual sticker sheet to its owner and congratulations! You've saved yourself the opportunity cost of owning sticker sheets for the low, low cost of sacrificing 5-10 minutes of your life each time you encounter them in a game of Magic! Repeat steps 2-5 if you somehow need more stickers to eke out a win.
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Post by Wallycaine » 1 year ago

TheAmericanSpirit wrote:
1 year ago
DirkGently wrote:
1 year ago
5colorsrainbow wrote:
1 year ago
You could just use the paper strips option then. Double checked and the rules even say you don't need to own any physical sticker sheets either if you wanna use paper.
Explain exactly how this option is supposed to work.
1. Take a standard 8×10 sheet of loose leaf paper. Using the lines on the sheet as a guide, fold and tear the paper in half length-wise so you have two sheets (likely you will only need one, but having a second ready is good prep).

2. Now, take your first half sheet and go to the offending player who introduced stickers into the game state and ask to see their sticker deck.
Select one card at random.

3. Using your random sticker sheet, copy all names and abilities onto individual lines on the looseleaf, leaving one line space between each and at least the bottom third of the sheet empty.

4. Carefully tear the name/ability section off and separate them, then take the remaining third of the paper and fold it into three sections like a trifold posterboard. In each of these sections, draw a quick but recognizable rendition of the art stickers on the sticker sheet and then separate them.

5. Now, return the actual sticker sheet to its owner and congratulations! You've saved yourself the opportunity cost of owning sticker sheets for the low, low cost of sacrificing 5-10 minutes of your life each time you encounter them in a game of Magic! Repeat steps 2-5 if you somehow need more stickers to eke out a win.
Notably, they've mentioned elsewhere that they plan to have an online tool that'll randomly "draw" 3 sticker sheets for you, so you can even skip the "talking to another person" step in the process.

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Post by kirkusjones » 1 year ago

Hermes_ wrote:
1 year ago
Mookie wrote:
1 year ago
So... is it just me, or is Pair o' Dice Lost
Our LGS was named pair o' dice so that card hurts lol

In Rochester?

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5colorsrainbow
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Post by 5colorsrainbow » 1 year ago

DirkGently wrote:
1 year ago
5colorsrainbow wrote:
1 year ago
You could just use the paper strips option then. Double checked and the rules even say you don't need to own any physical sticker sheets either if you wanna use paper.
Explain exactly how this option is supposed to work.
If you don't have (or want to use) the physical stickers you're allowed to use strips of paper to represent stickers similar how you can use dice, ect to represent counters and tokens. If you don't have the sheets you can use the randomizer tool to give you three sticker options that you can use paper stand ins to play.

While still a bit more of logical issue, it's negate some of the concerns you thoughts about the stickers lose stick, getting them back on the sheets ect.
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Dunadain
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Post by Dunadain » 1 year ago

As someone that works with kids, stickers are just messy.... Idk

And yeah, sure I can use paper strips or something as an alternative, but honestly I like buying tokens for cards that I know I'm going to need their token a lot, it's fun to have them on hand and it's just neat having actual cars represent your tokens, stickers however if I want to use actual stickers I'll probably need to buy replacement stickers every once in awhile.

I mean I don't want to blow this issue out of proportion, in reality I'll almost never use stickers, so I imagine a set of sticker sheets wil last me a very long time, but still I am not a huge fan of it. I also don't feel stickers are functionally different enough from counters, yes they stay when you change zones but that only really matters if you build around it, and if you want to build around counters staying on a permanent when it changes zones, let me introduce you to Skullbriar, the Walking Grave.
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DirkGently
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Post by DirkGently » 1 year ago

5colorsrainbow wrote:
1 year ago
If you don't have (or want to use) the physical stickers you're allowed to use strips of paper to represent stickers similar how you can use dice, ect to represent counters and tokens. If you don't have the sheets you can use the randomizer tool to give you three sticker options that you can use paper stand ins to play.

While still a bit more of logical issue, it's negate some of the concerns you thoughts about the stickers lose stick, getting them back on the sheets ect.
Using the randomizer tool isn't going to be optimized, though. A card like Fight the _______ Fight you can guarantee having a sufficiently long word for, if you pick the sheets yourself. If you rely on the randomizer, there's a chance you whiff. And ofc once you get into ability and p/t stickers there are going to be better and worse ones. Not to mention you'd need to recreate the stickers every time you play with them, which results in the ridiculous flow-annihilating arts & crafts project @TheAmericanSpirit detailed.

And if you reuse them, how are you supposed to ensure they stay together in the same "sheets" so you can randomly choose 3 of them? Do you carry them around in ziploc bags to group your slips? That sounds pretty unwieldly to add to a deck box. And you'd also need identifiers on the paper slips to ensure they return to the correct bag at the end. Choosing a bag at random is a bit messy since you'll probably be able to see some identifying text - maybe you put a number on each bag and then roll a dice?

This is why I wanted specifics.

Any way you slice this it seems like a huge pain in the butt. This seems like a mechanic designed for limited that creates a lot of mess in constructed.
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Post by Wallycaine » 1 year ago

I do find the idea amusing that your concern is about spending too much time and effort on this, and yet when presented with easily workable solutions, we suddenly care deeply about being "optimal". Just perhaps, it's worth being slightly sub optimal to save yourself some time?

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DirkGently
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Post by DirkGently » 1 year ago

Wallycaine wrote:
1 year ago
I do find the idea amusing that your concern is about spending too much time and effort on this, and yet when presented with easily workable solutions, we suddenly care deeply about being "optimal". Just perhaps, it's worth being slightly sub optimal to save yourself some time?
The non-optimal-play solution is the one @TheAmericanSpirit detailed that requires stopping the game and wasting a bunch of everyone's time with arts and crafts. It's non-optimal AND it wastes time.

The optimal-play solution involves either working through a bunch of logistical kinks and carrying around (unless you have a better idea) a bunch of ziploc bags, or dealing with replacing sticker sheets when they wear out (and potentially making your sleeves sticky, remains to be seen). One wonders how easy the good ones will be to acquire in 10 years.

The rest of my cards don't ask me to jump through a bunch of obnoxious logistical hoops to be played optimally.

But in the cases where time-saving and optimization are on opposing sides (say when someone without sticker sheets acquires a sticker-related card), would you really be happy with the outcome of a game being determined by someone's willingness to waste everyone's time looking through sticker sheets for the optimal ones, versus saving time and doing it randomly? Like, say it's down to 1v1. Active player is dead on the next turn to a large tapped flyer, his opponent is on 3 life, and both players have a 3/3 in play. He has a Fight the _______ Fight off Cunning Rhetoric. He uses the randomizer tool for stickers and doesn't hit any with an 8+ letter word, so he loses. Whereas if he'd wasted everyone's time physically creating a sticker deck from stickers with 8+ letter words on them, he would have been guaranteed a win. That's a satisfying way for a game to end, to you? Either with someone throwing away a guaranteed win, or wasting everyone's time with an arts and crafts project?

Of course, in this particular case I would hope most sane people would be willing to say "okay, there are obviously plenty of sticker sheets that have 8+ letter words, so we'll just say you have a sticker pile with those sheets and call it good". But what if it's not the end of the game, and now the specific sheets matter for future applications? What if it's not as easy to pick out winning stickers and now you have to comb through all the sheets to find how many have a "winner"? This whole thing is just a mess.
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5colorsrainbow
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Post by 5colorsrainbow » 1 year ago

Id just have a notebook with the ten stickers sheets I want written down, use the tool to pick the three randoms ones, mark which ones in the notebook and then just use paper I rip out, dice or those dry erase tokens as sticker stand ins. I won't really bother recycling the paper tokens between games.

*I typically play kitchen table or draft/sealed and my play group is already cool with just using w/e if we don't wanna use real stickers similar to using w/e for tokens and counters.
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