Why is Negan salty?

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RedCheese
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Post by RedCheese » 1 year ago

Are so many people this sensitive about reference to historical stuff hundreds of years ago?

Negan's problem is because mechanically ehs neat, attached to a stupid secret lair absed on an IP nothing to do with MTG. Is pure cringe.

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Post by onering » 1 year ago

It's mostly 2 and 3, because TWD was the absolute worst Universes Beyond implementation we've had so far, in terms of availability, manner of release, how badly the IP fits with Magic, how jarring the art is, and how none will be available with in universe alternates (like Stranger Things was).

But it's also 1, 4, and 5. 1 wouldn't be relevant if the card wasn't already hated, but while it's not OP it's actually pretty good, and can easily get out of hand making treasure. Negan (along with Rick) were the two most playable cards in the TWD drop. It's also a design that some people who hate the idea would be interested in playing, so they are extra salty because they would have liked the card if it was an in universe flavor and released normally but now feel like they are missing out. 4 is pretty relevant as there are people who are ok with TWD cards but hate Began because he's a rapist, and that also adds on the salt for people who dislike the card for other reasons. Lastly, 5 is relevant because the secret choice mechanic is a bit annoying, but I'll also expand it and not that it's very much a feel bad mechanic (your best case scenario is choosing the same creature as the Negan player, which typically is going to mean choosing your best creature and that feels like %$#%). While the victim has a choice, it's not a satisfying one but one that will always feel bad, since there's no winning, only trying to not lose so badly. It can go ok for you, say if your opponent expects you to choose you best creature to ensure you only lose one creature and so gets greedy and chooses your second best, but you also choose your second best, and so your best creature survives, but that's a lot of mind games just to get less screwed. His mechanic captures what he did in the show really well because it makes the person experiencing it miserable. Unfortunately, that's not good game design. It's also a very staxy effect, as it encourages you to start running spells that make opponents sac creatures so you can get the treasures, since that doesn't only trigger off his etb, so you get a bunch of fleshbag marauder clones and other cards that generally serve to keep the board clear while Negan ramps his pilot. His design would have caused saltiness even if he was a normal in universe legend released in a main set or commander precon, it just wouldn't have been quite so high.

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Post by Dunharrow » 1 year ago

NZB2323 wrote:
1 year ago
Dunharrow wrote:
1 year ago
I think there is a difference between having a TV show or a movie where the bad guys are Nazis and having a game where you can pilot the Nazis.
As much as I hated the episodes with Nazis in Supernatural, they were the bad guys and the heroes won.

But if I had to sit through a game where someone could have Nazis in play, I would be really upset. Deckbuilding is form of self-expression and being able to pilot war criminals should not be okay.
And I think WOTC agrees, right? I mean, Invoke Prejudice and a dozen other cards are banned in all formats.

So why do conquistadors get a pass? Why is the KKK bad but genocidal colonials okay?
They should have avoided the flavour of colonizers seeking to convert people modelled after native americans. Like really, this is an ongoing source of pain for so many indigenous people in North America.

And I am not saying that a fantasy story cannot use these concepts and themes to tell a story. Avatar (blue aliens) did this and I think it worked (even though the story was Dances With Wolves in space).
But it is different when a person opens a pack of cards and their mythic is a colonizer who hunts indigenous-looking people. As a Jew, I would be pissed off if I opened a pack in a draft and I am looking at fascists modelled after the Nazis.
And I imagine many native americans would have felt the same way opening a Vona, Butcher of Magan.

I get that this is not something everyone will agree about. Magic draws on real-world things all the time. We have all rolled our eyes at how magic stopped making Demons for 7 years because of Christians who were upset.
But I think it is clear there is a line somewhere that should not be crossed. As Dirk mentioned, Hitler on a magic card would not be okay. Fascist villains could be okay, but not if they are in the same color scheme. Not if the art is reminiscent of anything from the real world.

I am not sure where conquistadors lie - are they closer to demons or or nazis? I personally think they went over the line. I think it was close enough that if they had changed a few things to make it less evocative of Europeans forcibly converting native americans, it would have been fine.
Vona, Butcher of Magan isn't about genocide. She won a war on Torrezon by killing officers in the middle of the night. Then she came to Ixalan in search of the golden sun and Elenda. She fails to capture the immortal sun, she finds Elenda, who tells her she needs humility, and then a dinosaur eats her.

Sure, she's about conquest and power, but I don't see any genocide/KKK/Nazi parallels there.

I mean, I know she's a conquistador, but where do you draw the line? The Romans conquered Israel and for a time being Jewish was illegal in Ancient Rome. Are Rome themed sets off the table? During Medieval times being Jewish was illegal in a lot of countries, are medieval sets offensive?

Look at how many paladins there are in Magic, when historically paladins were Christian warriors fighting against Muslims.

I just don't get how paladins are good, medieval characters are good, Romans are good, but a conquistador who isn't about genocide, fails to get the immortal sun, is told by her hero that she needs humility, and gets eaten by a dinosaur is bad.

Like there were 4 endings for Ixalan, one for each tribe "winning" and the one for the vampires winning had her in a dinosaur's mouth.
did you read Vona's flavour text?
Not everyone reads the stories, but when you look at this card, it's some kind of murderous colonial. 400 years of conquest. Against who exactly?

And yes, there is a line. KKK is bad, Romans not bad... but I don't know where colonials invading native american tribes sits. Some people are upset about it. I didn't think much about it when the set was out (I hate tribal sets and didn't pay much attention). But then I saw someone from central america talking about how it felt to open a booster that had conquistadors, the people who destroyed meso-american culture.
If a set about Roman culture included crucifixion, some people would have a problem with it. Even though that is 2000 years old.

I am not here to tell you it was wrong, I am just saying that it was close to the line. I personally think it went over the line. But that perspective is also based on everything that has come out over the last two years about residential schools in Canada. Colonialism didn't end 500 years ago. I don't know that anyone is triggered by the attired of the vampires. But the concept of Europeans converting natives is.... a bad look, IMO.

Again, my opinion.
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Post by NZB2323 » 1 year ago

Dunharrow wrote:
1 year ago
NZB2323 wrote:
1 year ago
Dunharrow wrote:
1 year ago
I think there is a difference between having a TV show or a movie where the bad guys are Nazis and having a game where you can pilot the Nazis.
As much as I hated the episodes with Nazis in Supernatural, they were the bad guys and the heroes won.

But if I had to sit through a game where someone could have Nazis in play, I would be really upset. Deckbuilding is form of self-expression and being able to pilot war criminals should not be okay.
And I think WOTC agrees, right? I mean, Invoke Prejudice and a dozen other cards are banned in all formats.

So why do conquistadors get a pass? Why is the KKK bad but genocidal colonials okay?
They should have avoided the flavour of colonizers seeking to convert people modelled after native americans. Like really, this is an ongoing source of pain for so many indigenous people in North America.

And I am not saying that a fantasy story cannot use these concepts and themes to tell a story. Avatar (blue aliens) did this and I think it worked (even though the story was Dances With Wolves in space).
But it is different when a person opens a pack of cards and their mythic is a colonizer who hunts indigenous-looking people. As a Jew, I would be pissed off if I opened a pack in a draft and I am looking at fascists modelled after the Nazis.
And I imagine many native americans would have felt the same way opening a Vona, Butcher of Magan.

I get that this is not something everyone will agree about. Magic draws on real-world things all the time. We have all rolled our eyes at how magic stopped making Demons for 7 years because of Christians who were upset.
But I think it is clear there is a line somewhere that should not be crossed. As Dirk mentioned, Hitler on a magic card would not be okay. Fascist villains could be okay, but not if they are in the same color scheme. Not if the art is reminiscent of anything from the real world.

I am not sure where conquistadors lie - are they closer to demons or or nazis? I personally think they went over the line. I think it was close enough that if they had changed a few things to make it less evocative of Europeans forcibly converting native americans, it would have been fine.
Vona, Butcher of Magan isn't about genocide. She won a war on Torrezon by killing officers in the middle of the night. Then she came to Ixalan in search of the golden sun and Elenda. She fails to capture the immortal sun, she finds Elenda, who tells her she needs humility, and then a dinosaur eats her.

Sure, she's about conquest and power, but I don't see any genocide/KKK/Nazi parallels there.

I mean, I know she's a conquistador, but where do you draw the line? The Romans conquered Israel and for a time being Jewish was illegal in Ancient Rome. Are Rome themed sets off the table? During Medieval times being Jewish was illegal in a lot of countries, are medieval sets offensive?

Look at how many paladins there are in Magic, when historically paladins were Christian warriors fighting against Muslims.

I just don't get how paladins are good, medieval characters are good, Romans are good, but a conquistador who isn't about genocide, fails to get the immortal sun, is told by her hero that she needs humility, and gets eaten by a dinosaur is bad.

Like there were 4 endings for Ixalan, one for each tribe "winning" and the one for the vampires winning had her in a dinosaur's mouth.
did you read Vona's flavour text?
Not everyone reads the stories, but when you look at this card, it's some kind of murderous colonial. 400 years of conquest. Against who exactly?

And yes, there is a line. KKK is bad, Romans not bad... but I don't know where colonials invading native american tribes sits. Some people are upset about it. I didn't think much about it when the set was out (I hate tribal sets and didn't pay much attention). But then I saw someone from central america talking about how it felt to open a booster that had conquistadors, the people who destroyed meso-american culture.
If a set about Roman culture included crucifixion, some people would have a problem with it. Even though that is 2000 years old.

I am not here to tell you it was wrong, I am just saying that it was close to the line. I personally think it went over the line. But that perspective is also based on everything that has come out over the last two years about residential schools in Canada. Colonialism didn't end 500 years ago. I don't know that anyone is triggered by the attired of the vampires. But the concept of Europeans converting natives is.... a bad look, IMO.

Again, my opinion.
Vona had 400 years of conquest in the Apostasine Wars, which was a civil war in Torrezon, and then Torrezon took over the whole continent, which is like Europe, similar to Rome. So she was conquering other European nations. The Romans also converted people, had slaves, and executed Christians and Jews for their religious beliefs.

And she wasn't there to convert natives, she was there to get the immortal sun, she was there for like 2 weeks and a dinosaur ate her.

The closest card we have to a crucifixion or genocide is Tivadar's Crusade, but I guess no one cares about that because it's goblins.

I'm not saying your opinion is wrong, just that if you look at Vona with context I don't think there's anything wrong with her.
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Post by DirkGently » 1 year ago

Dunadain wrote:
1 year ago
Also wizards already took a stance by banning a number of potentially offensive cards and Hitler would be worse than all of them.
To be fair, cards like stone-throwing devils, if taken in a racist way, are framed to agree with that racist view.

Invoke Prejudice is the only card I would say frames the thing depicted as being villainous (arguably) but then there's the whole thing with the artist being a neonazi that makes it a lot more questionable, plus the universe ID.

If you made a Hitler card for some reason, you could at least ridicule him by making him terrible, as well as unambiguously villainous…but I agree that cardboard makes it a lot harder to control how things are perceived once it's in the hands of players. You don't get to control the story once people are playing the game - they're creating it themselves. So it's probably best not to let them create stories where the nazis win, even if the cards themselves were clearly framed as villainous.

Btw in an amusing coincidence I just got a short story accepted for publication about an alternate history where the Nazis did win. Don't worry, they're framed as villainous (And if you're thinking "that sounds overdone" don't worry, the story goes in a pretty different direction than the typical "man in the high castle")
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Post by RedCheese » 1 year ago

Is Vona a historical character? Is her country Spain or any other European country?

Whats the big deal then? Her faction isn't shown in a positive matter eitherway so i don't see the problem. I would atribtue Conquistadors to like Vikings. Been offended by inspirations like these is ridiculous. Why isn't Vader hated by every one then? isn't Star Wars Empire inspired by Nazis or something like that? Jesus Christ, everything is offensive these days.

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Post by Hermes_ » 1 year ago

DirkGently wrote:
1 year ago


Btw in an amusing coincidence I just got a short story accepted for publication about an alternate history where the Nazis did win. Don't worry, they're framed as villainous (And if you're thinking "that sounds overdone" don't worry, the story goes in a pretty different direction than the typical "man in the high castle")
so Fatherland instead? or SS-GB? or In the Presence of Mine Enemies?
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Post by Gentle Giant » 1 year ago

@NZB2323, you can argue from what the mtg stories tell about a character, but do you honestly think that the vast majority of players actually read those? It's such a moot point to argue from. @Dunharrow's point is that they don't see the super complex and nuanced character in the stories (and their demise), they see a powerful card resembling their ancestors' killers (putting it mildly). A big part of design is knowing how your players will engage with your product, to envision the experience from their end, and from the above perspective it's not hard to understand why certain choices in Ixalan were poorly made/problematic.
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Post by DirkGently » 1 year ago

Hermes_ wrote:
1 year ago

so Fatherland instead? or SS-GB? or In the Presence of Mine Enemies?
Nope, very different from all of them and probably not in a way you're thinking of.

I really want to spoil the reason why but I probably shouldn't. You'll just have to read it if you want to find out.
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Post by hyalopterouslemur » 1 year ago

Ahem, besides Negan's sex offenses, he also murders both Abraham and Glenn. Oh, and brainwashes Rick, and gives him the Sophie's choice of cutting off Carl's arm or watching everyone else die.

But Negan's minion Simon is worse, though. Oh, how about a massacre of every male resident of a town just so he can have his own harem all to himself?

Yeah, The Walking Dead was unsubtle in its villains.
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Post by Hermes_ » 1 year ago

DirkGently wrote:
1 year ago
Hermes_ wrote:
1 year ago

so Fatherland instead? or SS-GB? or In the Presence of Mine Enemies?
Nope, very different from all of them and probably not in a way you're thinking of.

I really want to spoil the reason why but I probably shouldn't. You'll just have to read it if you want to find out.
I'll give you the benefit of doubt, but I'm highly skeptical that it's a new twist on the Nazis' win in World War 2 or at least new to me.
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Post by TheAmericanSpirit » 1 year ago

Hermes_ wrote:
1 year ago
DirkGently wrote:
1 year ago
Hermes_ wrote:
1 year ago

so Fatherland instead? or SS-GB? or In the Presence of Mine Enemies?
Nope, very different from all of them and probably not in a way you're thinking of.

I really want to spoil the reason why but I probably shouldn't. You'll just have to read it if you want to find out.
I'll give you the benefit of doubt, but I'm highly skeptical that it's a new twist on the Nazis' win in World War 2 or at least new to me.
Yeah, @DirkGently, you've made some bold claims in the past but this one takes the cake. Also, how are we supposed to read it if we don't even know where to look for it? Wouldn't it also sunder your last shred of anonymity even if we did (unless you foresaw that and used a psuedonym)?

Edit: I admit, I love how many writers hang out here. @kirkusjones is quite good, you should ask him to show you some of it. @TheGildedGoose said once it was working on something, although I forget what. And now Dirk's cooking up alternative timeline short stories! I really should bust out the ol' pen and pad one of these days, just to throw my hat in the ring with these talented beings and see how I stack up!
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Post by DirkGently » 1 year ago

@Hermes_ @TheAmericanSpirit To be fair, besides watching the Man in the High Castle a few years ago I'm not particularly well versed in reverse-ww2 alt hist. I googled the ones hermes mentioned and they sound entirely unlike my take, but I'll concede it's possible someone else got there first that I'm not aware of.

I feel like I shouldn't give away the story for free now that the publisher has put money into it, at least not in a public place. Also they told me not to tell that I got selected yet, so I've been intentionally leaving out the name of the publisher so there's not enough info for [whatever bad thing they think might happen if people know, I have no idea]. Buuuut I'm kinda curious if anyone's beaten me to the punch on this idea, and I'm kinda dubious that y'all are buying a lot of UK short story collections unprompted. So whoever thinks they're most familiar with reverse-ww2 alt hist, I'll PM my story concept to, and that person can declare whether or not I'm accurate in saying that this is a unique take on the subject. And if that endorsement (assuming I'm right, which I usually do) makes you wanna go buy this collection when it's published, then I'll tell you once I'm allowed to. Deal?
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Post by Mergatroid_Jones » 1 year ago

Interesting that nobody has mentioned figures from Portal 3K like Liu Bei, Lord of Shu (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liu_Bei), Cao Cao, Lord of Wei (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cao_Cao), and Dong Zhou, the Tyrant (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dong_Zhuo).

They're all super important and pretty fascinating figures. Ruthless dudes too: genocide wasn't exactly a concept yet, but I wouldn't put anything past these fellas.

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Post by Hermes_ » 1 year ago

DirkGently wrote:
1 year ago
@Hermes_ @TheAmericanSpirit To be fair, besides watching the Man in the High Castle a few years ago I'm not particularly well versed in reverse-ww2 alt hist. I googled the ones hermes mentioned and they sound entirely unlike my take, but I'll concede it's possible someone else got there first that I'm not aware of.

I feel like I shouldn't give away the story for free now that the publisher has put money into it, at least not in a public place. Also they told me not to tell that I got selected yet, so I've been intentionally leaving out the name of the publisher so there's not enough info for [whatever bad thing they think might happen if people know, I have no idea]. Buuuut I'm kinda curious if anyone's beaten me to the punch on this idea, and I'm kinda dubious that y'all are buying a lot of UK short story collections unprompted. So whoever thinks they're most familiar with reverse-ww2 alt hist, I'll PM my story concept to, and that person can declare whether or not I'm accurate in saying that this is a unique take on the subject. And if that endorsement (assuming I'm right, which I usually do) makes you wanna go buy this collection when it's published, then I'll tell you once I'm allowed to. Deal?
Deal
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Post by Hermes_ » 1 year ago

TheAmericanSpirit wrote:
1 year ago
Hermes_ wrote:
1 year ago
DirkGently wrote:
1 year ago


Nope, very different from all of them and probably not in a way you're thinking of.

I really want to spoil the reason why but I probably shouldn't. You'll just have to read it if you want to find out.
I'll give you the benefit of doubt, but I'm highly skeptical that it's a new twist on the Nazis' win in World War 2 or at least new to me.
Yeah, @DirkGently, you've made some bold claims in the past but this one takes the cake. Also, how are we supposed to read it if we don't even know where to look for it? Wouldn't it also sunder your last shred of anonymity even if we did (unless you foresaw that and used a psuedonym)?

Edit: I admit, I love how many writers hang out here. @kirkusjones is quite good, you should ask him to show you some of it. @TheGildedGoose said once it was working on something, although I forget what. And now Dirk's cooking up alternative timeline short stories! I really should bust out the ol' pen and pad one of these days, just to throw my hat in the ring with these talented beings and see how I stack up!
I've been working off and on with my own book, it's YA high school romance and I've gotten a few chapters done and I'm willing to let folks read it,and comment on it.
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Post by kirkusjones » 1 year ago

Hermes_ wrote:
1 year ago
TheAmericanSpirit wrote:
1 year ago
Hermes_ wrote:
1 year ago


I'll give you the benefit of doubt, but I'm highly skeptical that it's a new twist on the Nazis' win in World War 2 or at least new to me.
Yeah, @DirkGently, you've made some bold claims in the past but this one takes the cake. Also, how are we supposed to read it if we don't even know where to look for it? Wouldn't it also sunder your last shred of anonymity even if we did (unless you foresaw that and used a psuedonym)?

Edit: I admit, I love how many writers hang out here. @kirkusjones is quite good, you should ask him to show you some of it. @TheGildedGoose said once it was working on something, although I forget what. And now Dirk's cooking up alternative timeline short stories! I really should bust out the ol' pen and pad one of these days, just to throw my hat in the ring with these talented beings and see how I stack up!
I've been working off and on with my own book, it's YA high school romance and I've gotten a few chapters done and I'm willing to let folks read it,and comment on it.
PM a link. Always happy to read others' work!

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Post by TheAmericanSpirit » 1 year ago

DirkGently wrote:
1 year ago
@Hermes_ @TheAmericanSpirit To be fair, besides watching the Man in the High Castle a few years ago I'm not particularly well versed in reverse-ww2 alt hist. I googled the ones hermes mentioned and they sound entirely unlike my take, but I'll concede it's possible someone else got there first that I'm not aware of.

I feel like I shouldn't give away the story for free now that the publisher has put money into it, at least not in a public place. Also they told me not to tell that I got selected yet, so I've been intentionally leaving out the name of the publisher so there's not enough info for [whatever bad thing they think might happen if people know, I have no idea]. Buuuut I'm kinda curious if anyone's beaten me to the punch on this idea, and I'm kinda dubious that y'all are buying a lot of UK short story collections unprompted. So whoever thinks they're most familiar with reverse-ww2 alt hist, I'll PM my story concept to, and that person can declare whether or not I'm accurate in saying that this is a unique take on the subject. And if that endorsement (assuming I'm right, which I usually do) makes you wanna go buy this collection when it's published, then I'll tell you once I'm allowed to. Deal?
Deal.
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Post by duducrash » 1 year ago

Mergatroid_Jones wrote:
1 year ago
Interesting that nobody has mentioned figures from Portal 3K like Liu Bei, Lord of Shu (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liu_Bei), Cao Cao, Lord of Wei (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cao_Cao), and Dong Zhou, the Tyrant (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dong_Zhuo).

They're all super important and pretty fascinating figures. Ruthless dudes too: genocide wasn't exactly a concept yet, but I wouldn't put anything past these fellas.
I'll be honest, I never knew they were real. Yeah, whenever there is "warlord" in someones wikipedia description im pretty sure stuff was wild

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Post by hyalopterouslemur » 1 year ago

duducrash wrote:
1 year ago
Mergatroid_Jones wrote:
1 year ago
Interesting that nobody has mentioned figures from Portal 3K like Liu Bei, Lord of Shu (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liu_Bei), Cao Cao, Lord of Wei (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cao_Cao), and Dong Zhou, the Tyrant (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dong_Zhuo).

They're all super important and pretty fascinating figures. Ruthless dudes too: genocide wasn't exactly a concept yet, but I wouldn't put anything past these fellas.
I'll be honest, I never knew they were real. Yeah, whenever there is "warlord" in someones wikipedia description im pretty sure stuff was wild
Cáo Cāo was hated in his own time, but nobody dared risk the penalty for saying so.

I mean, they're not all real. There's no evidence Diaochan ever existed. She's notable in Romance of the Three Kingdoms for being at the center of a love triangle: Her father, Wang Yun, presents her as Dong Zhou's concubine while simultaneously betrothing her to Lü Bu, in hopes of turning the men against each other. So, pretty much what the card depicts.

Lü Bu should be something like Chaos Lord to be honest. He's called the Bastard of Three Fathers for a reason.
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Post by Hermes_ » 1 year ago

So, yeah @DirkGently 's take on an Axis winning WWII is something I haven't heard of or at least the after-effects of an Axis win.
Last edited by Hermes_ 1 year ago, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by DirkGently » 1 year ago

Hermes_ wrote:
1 year ago
Dink
Lol rude if intentional.

But while we're on the topic, when I was ~3 Dink was the name of my imaginary friend. He was a mile tall but also I think levitated off the ground for some reason. I recorded hours and hours of talking aimlessly about him into my fisher price 1980s tape recorder.
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Post by Hermes_ » 1 year ago

DirkGently wrote:
1 year ago
Hermes_ wrote:
1 year ago
Dink
Lol rude if intentional.

But while we're on the topic, when I was ~3 Dink was the name of my imaginary friend. He was a mile tall but also I think levitated off the ground for some reason. I recorded hours and hours of talking aimlessly about him into my fisher price 1980s tape recorder.
Was in a hurry and on my phone lol I'll fix it
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