Karador, Ghost Chieftan, Abzan Value Midrange

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duducrash
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Post by duducrash » 2 years ago

This deck has been one hell of a journey!

Heres a small deck history:

At first it wasn't a Karador, Ghost Chieftain deck. in fact not even Abzan deck. The first idea of this deck was a Chulane, Teller of Tales where I did play all the hatebears I played in other formats. Then I saw many of those hatebears where legendary and I played a Kethis, the Hidden Hand "Historic & Taxes" deck. and as I played it and changed and changed, it went towards a grindy GY game, and it eventually became Karador, this is now my favorite deck. the one I get like foil copies or cool secret lair arts.

Current Decklist (Updated as MKM)

Decklist

Board Wipes

1 Damn
Approximate Total Cost:

My version/Play Patterns

My version of Karador, Ghost Chieftain wants to play a long grindy game, hit all the land drops, slow my opponents a little bit and accrue value trough each game action. I want to slow my opponents a little bit and advance my position a little and in the end come out on top, either by attacking or several Elas il-Kor, Sadistic Pilgrim triggers. either way, Field of the Dead is directly involved in many of the games we end up winning, perhaps because of that I highly value hitting my land drops. I'm running 40 lands, 3 land cyclers and 7 ramp pieces. Aditionally, out of my 6 tutors, 3 can find Field of the Dead . Hitting a somewhat early Karador, Ghost Chieftain is big time for this deck. playing Satyr Wayfinder over and over again really gets the game going, with several of our pieces in the GY the game run pretty smoothly. if the game states proves to be too much to win via regular attacks, we can Fiend Artisan to get Moonshaker Cavalry and do an alpha strike.
Ideally in the early turns we are playing Thalia, Guardian of Thraben or Archon of Emeria and then hitting Circle of the Land Druid / Satyr Wayfinder .The hatebears will draw a kill spell really soon, but you would be amazed to see how some small taxation will throw commander players out of their loop. This small tempo advantage will be the building block. effects like Karador, Ghost Chieftain and Lurrus of the Dream-Den will allow us to play this cards multiple times a turn. aditionally, a sac outlet + Karador, Ghost Chieftain turn Archon of Emeria really unfair (I got to thank @pokken for this play pattern. I had not realized it and it became a really good line to have.)

My version is a bit (maybe too?) high on cycling cards, running all 3 1 mana land cyclers from LOTR + Street Wraith . I Really like the LOTR cyclers , they provide good fixing, they are assure we will hit our land drops and if needed they can even come back. I recently had a game where I cast the green one over and over to block Feather, the Redeemed . It's highly unlikely the creature itself will be relevant, but reducing for Karador, Ghost Chieftain and fixing for the right lands is worth it for me.

Notable exclusions
Hermit Druid - 18 basics is a bit too much, I think whenever I get to arround 14 I'll try it again. great card, but better used in more optmized landbases imho.
Survival of the Fittest - I just don't have one
Fauna Shaman - I wanted it to work but I played it twice and both times it was insta killed. Perhaps I could try it again but it left a sour taste in my mouth
Spore Frog - I probably should run it back, but I'm playing in a more aggro heavy playgroup and they would visibly moan when this card made an appearence. Have you ever seen a grown man concede to a 1/1 frog? it's weird
Protean Hulk - Protean hulk + sac outlet can get you a infinity combo, I currently don't run these lines in my build. but protean hulk alone for value could be usefull in the future
Natural Order - Most of my heavy hitters aren't green

Possible upgrades

Like I mentioned before, I don't run Survival of the Fittest for budgetary reasons. not the only card I don't run for those reasons, several cards I don't run and probably never will (like ABU deals and so on) but there are other cards that I don't own now but it isn't impossible for me to eventually get. here are some imrpovements I could eventually add to my collection.

Phyrexian Tower
Recruiter of the Guard
Ranger-Captain of Eos
Boseiju, Who Endures
Volrath's Stronghold
Last edited by duducrash 3 weeks ago, edited 19 times in total.

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Post by Phoenixlance » 2 years ago

I used to run a similar Anafenza list in the "before times." I included cards like Farseek, Three Visits, and Nature's Lore over the guild signets, but given the historic theme here the rocks might make more sense. I feel like they would be better than something like Deathsprout, however.

While not a Legendary creature, can't go wrong the ol' reliable Eternal Witness to get back those important lock pieces. I'm also a fan of Oversold Cemetery.

It's tricky naming specific creatures for a deck like this, given that so much of it can rely on playgroup and expected meta, so I'll try to be as objective as possible while drawing on my own experiences.

Kambal, Consul of Allocation is probably my favorite legendary hatebear next to Thalia. The draining really adds up over the course of a game, and can single-handedly win the game on its own against certain decks. Linvala, Keeper of Silence is another strong consideration as there are many relevant creatures still in EDH that rely on activated abilities. My Anafenza list also had Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite at the top end to help close out games.

I'm a little wary of Massacre Girl as another wrath effect, as she can inadvertently break your own board too while trying to deal with the table, but presumably if you're casting her you're behind anyways and with Kethis you should be able to recur pieces easily, so I guess it's fine here. Good tutor target with Sisay at any rate.

Winds of Abandon is probably my favorite white removal spell right now, I like its flexibility to either be a Path effect or a Plague Wind. Combine with Leonin Arbiter for hilarious times (well, for you).
I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more card draw.

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duducrash
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Post by duducrash » 2 years ago

Phoenixlance wrote:
2 years ago
I used to run a similar Anafenza list in the "before times." I included cards like Farseek, Three Visits, and Nature's Lore over the guild signets, but given the historic theme here the rocks might make more sense. I feel like they would be better than something like Deathsprout, however.

While not a Legendary creature, can't go wrong the ol' reliable Eternal Witness to get back those important lock pieces. I'm also a fan of Oversold Cemetery.

It's tricky naming specific creatures for a deck like this, given that so much of it can rely on playgroup and expected meta, so I'll try to be as objective as possible while drawing on my own experiences.

Kambal, Consul of Allocation is probably my favorite legendary hatebear next to Thalia. The draining really adds up over the course of a game, and can single-handedly win the game on its own against certain decks. Linvala, Keeper of Silence is another strong consideration as there are many relevant creatures still in EDH that rely on activated abilities. My Anafenza list also had Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite at the top end to help close out games.

I'm a little wary of Massacre Girl as another wrath effect, as she can inadvertently break your own board too while trying to deal with the table, but presumably if you're casting her you're behind anyways and with Kethis you should be able to recur pieces easily, so I guess it's fine here. Good tutor target with Sisay at any rate.

Winds of Abandon is probably my favorite white removal spell right now, I like its flexibility to either be a Path effect or a Plague Wind. Combine with Leonin Arbiter for hilarious times (well, for you).
Thank you so much for your input!!

Yeah I'm also not sure on the artifact ramp mostly because I also wanted to put Collector Ouphe. This is a nice idea going foward.

Kambal, Consul of Allocation is awesome, I flat out forgot he existed for a moment. Linvala is great just a bit expensive (money wise) and I never went after it. It sure seems fun, specially against the hell that is Thrasios, Triton Hero

I don't know how Massacre Girl girl plays tbh, shes one of those quarentine includes, but I do like the theme and having a Wrath the doges Gaddock Teeg .

I had Leonin Arbiter at first, but it just feels bad to deny other players their lands. Thats why I cut both him and arbiter. It's one thing to hose a tutor but it messing with lands can lead to some (somewhat justified) salt

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duducrash
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Post by duducrash » 2 years ago

Some cards don't feel as good as I anticipated. For one Whip of Erebos is awkward here, not much ETB value to be whipped back not much I get to bring it back for a single turn.

Orzhov Signet , Selesnya Signet and Golgari Signet and even Arcane Signet I don't know if thats the way I want to go when ramping. @Phoenixlance pointed this out and got me thinking. First of all one big omission is Karametra, God of Harvests. She works very well here. Other than her I'm thinking in going with

Farhaven Elf , Yavimaya Dryad and Yavimaya Granger and Wood Elves are what I'm thinking right now. What you all think? These 4 and Sakura-Tribe Elder will dodge Thalia tax. will benefit from Nylea, Keen-Eyed and will have nice synergy with Teshar, Ancestor's Apostle and trigger both Karametra and Oketra. I would love input on this.

This isnt entirely a graveyard deck but there are several graveyard synergies, so I wonder how much I like Kunoros, Hound of Athreos I like the idea but it hoses me more than most I guess.

I will not make the changes yet because I havent made my mind yet


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FoxHybrid
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Post by FoxHybrid » 2 years ago

Have you considered playing Liesa, Shroud of Dusk? It's kind of like Kambal, but it trades hitting yourself and not gaining life for pinging for every spell and having lifelink and flying. It might hurt you a bit, but you can gain some of that back with the lifelink, it might not fit in to every meta though.

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duducrash
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Post by duducrash » 2 years ago

FoxHybrid wrote:
2 years ago
Have you considered playing Liesa, Shroud of Dusk?
I gotta be honest and say I didnt even know about Liesa! I got lost in the commander legends shuffle. It definitely fits what Im proposing to do here! I will look into her!

I'm considering lowering my curve looking into more ramp, it feels needed!

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duducrash
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Post by duducrash » 2 years ago

This is deck is a perfect example of where my shortcomings as an inexperienced EDH deck builder. For most of the game the deck works fine, it does what I want to, by slowing the game down but whenever I have an advantage I can't turn that advantage into a win, I can't advance my gameplan much.

I've played 11 games with the deck and won 2. both times I didnt quite win, it was a more of my oponents losing the game. once an opponent killed everyone while dying to the crackback and other game Kaervek the Merciless did a mess and I just got clean up.

I'm stuck, I don't know what to do to the deck right now.

What I do know Is that I want a small sacrifice package. Recursion is a theme in the deck and with so many ways to get things back from the yard, controling when they go the yard is nice. Also cutting Yasharn, Implacable Earth 100%. its underwhealming even without the sac package, imagine with it.

I would grealy appreciate any input for more experienced players on how to build a late game strategy here

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Post by FoxHybrid » 2 years ago

One type of card I think might help you finish off games are Overrun type effects. Especially with your use of hatebears, I think it would make a good finisher, and as for a sacrifice subtheme, I think it would work well with cards you currently run, like Archon of Emeria and Spirit of the Labyrinth. You might want some sac outlets like Viscera Seer and Carrion Feeder as well as some reanimation, preferably permanent based, like Phyrexian Reclamation or Journey to Eternity // Atzal, Cave of Eternity. Depending on far you want to go into the subtheme, you could run cards like Grim Haruspex and Skullclamp.

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Post by kraus911 » 2 years ago

Migration Path over Skyshroud because then if you have Gaddock Teeg out you could just cycle it. I use it instead of Skyshroud in all my decks that want a 4 mana get 2 lands card.

Rankle, Master of Pranks is good in your deck since if you choose sac a creature you can get it back for value. Same potentially for discard. Flying, haste, such a flexible card.

I know you have artifact hate that makes it a bit of a nonbo, but Blackblade Reforged might be worth it.

Looks like a fun deck!

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Post by duducrash » 2 years ago

FoxHybrid wrote:
2 years ago
One type of card I think might help you finish off games are Overrun type effects. Especially with your use of hatebears, I think it would make a good finisher
Yeah! Overrun effects should help! maybe Kamahl, Heart of Krosa / Kamahl, Fist of Krosa they have built in overrun effects. If I can get an Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite might help too
FoxHybrid wrote:
2 years ago
You might want some sac outlets like Viscera Seer and Carrion Feeder
Yeah, I think 3~4 sac outlets would be nice. I like these 2+Yahenni, Undying Partisan maybe maybe maybe Stronghold Assassin

kraus911 wrote:
2 years ago
Migration Path over Skyshroud because then if you have Gaddock Teeg out you could just cycle it. I use it instead of Skyshroud in all my decks that want a 4 mana get 2 lands card.
Yeah, Skyshroud Claim is a better card because it can get nonbasic nonforests too. But it is too much of a nonbo with everything else. From Gaddock Teeg to Thalia, Guardian of Thraben effects. I think Solemn Simulacrum will be slot in here. I have a theme of fetch creatures in Arbor Elf and similar cards. Plus it will dodge taxes and enable the dogs Karametra, God of Harvests and God-Eternal Oketra
kraus911 wrote:
2 years ago
Rankle, Master of Pranks is good in your deck since if you choose sac a creature you can get it back for value. Same potentially for discard. Flying, haste, such a flexible card.
Thats a nice flexible spice. I'll try and get myself a Rankle! thank you

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Post by TheMrBigShot96 » 2 years ago

You need to be playing the legendary sorceries. I play a control version of kethis as well. My favorite spells are the legendary soceries. Urza's Ruinous Blast is a one sided board wipe 99% of the time that exiles. Kamahl's Druidic Vow shoots you ahead of the rest of the table. Primeval's glorious rebirth is the main reason I put together my deck to begin with since it's a recurable mass reanimation spell for you. Plus the icing on top is Kethis can help you recast them over and over.

(Sorry first co.ment so I'm not sure how to link cards yet.)

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Post by duducrash » 2 years ago

TheMrBigShot96 wrote:
2 years ago
You need to be playing the legendary sorceries. I play a control version of kethis as well. My favorite spells are the legendary soceries. Urza's Ruinous Blast is a one sided board wipe 99% of the time that exiles. Kamahl's Druidic Vow shoots you ahead of the rest of the table. Primeval's glorious rebirth is the main reason I put together my deck to begin with since it's a recurable mass reanimation spell for you. Plus the icing on top is Kethis can help you recast them over and over.

(Sorry first co.ment so I'm not sure how to link cards yet.)
I am playing them! all 3 of those! they are pretty good indeed!

to link a card try [.card] without the dot. and then [./card] after the name. There is a sweet autocomplete feature that will search cards for you and you wont need to actually type them all

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Post by TheMrBigShot96 » 2 years ago

Oops my bad. Somehow completely missed those in your list.

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Post by duducrash » 2 years ago

Just had surgery and got some time to spare and can't do much so I've been messing with a lot of old cards. Ended up changing the deck a bit. I just don't know if I'm happy with the high (16) ammount of non creature spells.

Some changes are a bit of a sacrifice package for recursion payoff and some enchantment based hate.

I think maybe one of the Kamahls can help me cose games

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Post by duducrash » 2 years ago

This deck is really fun to play with but I just can't close games with. I'd appreciate advice on how to close games better and what possible changes I can make.

Gisa, Glorious Resurrector is a card I'm looking foward to geting and putting in

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Post by Sefir » 2 years ago

duducrash wrote:
2 years ago
This deck is really fun to play with but I just can't close games with. I'd appreciate advice on how to close games better and what possible changes I can make.
Abuse Kethis, the Hidden Hand+Hope of Ghirapur semi-infinite etb/death triggers. Along with Reki, the History of Kamigawa you can draw a bunch to have the gas to put more cards in your gy.
Maybe add The Meathook Massacre? It is legendary as well and in the right colors.
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Post by Myllior » 2 years ago

In previous posts, you've already touched on the premier hatebear finisher in Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite. While she may cost a bit, she is worth the price tag. You've also touched on the green Kamahls, both of which can provide the reach to a board of bears. Depending on how games typically run for you, Mirror Entity may also be a consideration; I run it as a finisher in my Derevi deck, however the deck also has a couple of synergies relating to Elves and Wizards, which Mirror Entity contributes to.

If there's one card I'd always recommend to a GW(+) hatebears deck, it's Archon of Valor's Reach. This card is a big beater that can single-handedly shut down decks or at the least make it very difficult for opponents to answer your board, while you'll dodge most - if not all - of its effect due to being so creature heavy.
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duducrash
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Post by duducrash » 2 years ago

Made some changes to the deck!

In

Plaguecrafter
Katilda, dawnhart prime
Torens, fist of angels
Guardian of faith

Out

Birds of paradise
Knight of autumn
Hope of ghirapur
Safi Eriksdotter

Torens overperforms he is even monastery mentor like I would say at times..

I recently purcharsed my Elesh Norn and plan to snap include her in.

Also thinking of cutting some dual lands for dual lands with forest typing, even if thet get in tapped because of Karametra, God of Harvests and elves that fetch. The op is super out of date, will improve soon

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duducrash
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Post by duducrash » 2 years ago

Continuing to update my decks ops since I have a PC back at home again.

I'm not 100% sure of changes I've made in the past few weeks but here are some I know for sure. cards I don't own spare copies but will add in the future are Vindicate and Spirit of the Labyrinth (I had one here but put in another deck i'm playing more). One card I'll take out is Karador, Ghost Chieftain , the other one I'm not quite sure

some Outs

Vivien, Champion of the Wilds
Tomik, Distinguished Advokist
Varragoth, Bloodsky Sire
Arvad the Cursed
Kolvori, God of Kinship // The Ringhart Crest



some Ins

Merciless Eternal
Luminous Broodmoth
Archon of Valor's Reach
Knight of Autumn back again


I'm really happy with the deck overall, there are obvious changes to be made that I haven't made because I don't have the cards. But the decks does what it is supposed to do. It slows down the decks arround it, making the games longer, its my take on "be the change you want to see in the world" . Most of the times the deck helps not run away to the game and the value abzan brings to the table helps to grind out wins, it sometimes go nuts with ramping bringing back Wood Elves effects. It has gotten better at closing games but I feel I could benefit from another creature. I'm thinking about Maga, Traitor to Mortals or one of those crazy X hydras.
.
Also Kogla, the Titan Ape I stole one Kogla in a match the other day and it felt really good. I'm unsure how good he is overall but does seem good.

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Post by duducrash » 1 year ago

So, I recently decided to build a companion deck and this is the deck I would have the least work to do. So I'll give it a try (and hope there isnt some sweet legendary instant/sorceries in dominaria to make me regret). This is the shell I have right now.

I'll have like 11 new slots, cards I'm looking to put in

Carrion Feeder
Magister of Worth
Massacre Girl
Dread Cacodemon
Beast Whisperer
Grim Haruspex
Baird, Steward of Argive
False Prophet
Gala Greeters
Rumor Gatherer
Mageta the Lion
Sifter of Skulls
Merciless Executioner
Kogla, the Titan Ape
Maga, Traitor to Mortals


Help is appreciated with creatures that have needed effects built in!

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Post by duducrash » 1 year ago

Turns out this idea *sucks*. Its cute to build all creatures but all creatures just makes me give up on interaction.

I had two really fun grindy games where the deck performed really well and a couple of games where the very few instant speed answers I could have weren't available. I'll be returning to legends & taxes with noncreature spells. I'll keep trying to make creature based control decks, I like the idea of the legendary subtheme, but Umori, the Collector just aint it

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Post by duducrash » 1 year ago

So, I revamped the deck and updated the op with sections.

My next update will be a package of lands and Ramunap Excavator . I'll try and trade for Boseiju, Who Endures and Eiganjo, Seat of the Empire and find my Strip Mine and go from there

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Post by Chromaticus » 1 year ago

The companion nerf all but ruined it for commander. It might be worth it to do Umori, the Collector at 4 mana, but 7?? Blech.

Same deal Obosh, the Preypiercer, Zirda, the Dawnwaker, and Jegantha, the Wellspring. In the brief interim where it worked as written, I had a super fun Jegantha, the Wellspring companion deck with tons of haste enablers that would cast the commander on the same turn as Jegantha, the Wellspring. What I found was that taking the time to pay the three tax put me hideously behind.

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Post by duducrash » 1 year ago

Major changes for the deck.

Decklist

out

Minthara, merciless soul

Farhaven Elf

Search for Glory

Yavimaya Granger

Vryn Wingmare

Thorn of amethyst

Yavimaya Dryad

Stony Silence

Reidane, God of the worthy

Dosan, the falling leaf

Archon of Emeria

Aven Mindcensor

Archon of valor reach

Saryth, the viper's fang

Katilda, dawnhart prime

Nylea, Keen-Eyed

Kamahl, heart of krosa

owlbear sheppard

Reki, History of Kamigawa

Guardian of faith

Growing rites of itlimoc

in

silverback elder

remorseful cleric

ratadabrik of urborg

ramunap excavator

plaguecrafter

outland liberator

oracle of mul daya

lupus of dream-den

Lorran of the third Path

Kura, the boundless sky

Fiend Artisan

Fell Stinger

Eternal Witness

Elas Il-Kor, sadistic pilgrim

diligent farmhand

dawntreader elk

dauthi voidwalker

champion of lambholt

ayli, eternal pilgrim

Aron, Benalia's ruin

plumb the forbidden

winds of abandon
Approximate Total Cost:

I also reworked the lands, but unfortunately I havent kept track of what I did to them. this current iteration might have too many taplands, if this is proven to be true I'll work on that. I added some lands that sacrifice, such as Flooded Strand and Nurturing Peatland and would like to recurse them with Ramunap Excavator, I also changed the commander

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