Dennick's Cockroach Mill

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 1 year ago

rexyplaysmtg wrote:
1 year ago
Couldn't agree more! I would even consider (again possibly) Archive Trap or Psychosis Crawler for some mill and passive damage since this deck also has a good amount of control. Bruvac the Grandiloquent is my favorite card for milling tbh; the faces of your opponents when you have a Body of Knowledge out with 20 cards in your hand and 15 damage dealt to it paired with a Teferi's Tutelage, ultimately milling each opponent 60 cards brings me much joy.
I still think there is a lot of value to repeat milling over one shot but some of the one shot effects can still be decent. I just don't like giving up a clue to apply some arbitrary milling that will give me a single clue if it isn't killing an opponent. Its really hard in this format to get enough single use milling chained together to push for fast wins via milling whish is generally why I prefer the over time milling. Also the over time milling can accumulate multiple clues which is a large part of why I run them. If I want to push harder on milling than I am currently I would likely consider adding Mesmeric Orb, Ruin Crab, or Dreamborn Muse as it stands right now. I ended up cutting Ruin Crab at the same time as Hedron Crab and I don't regret cutting Hedron but I think I might have been a little hard on Ruin Crab in my assessment in part due to Hedron's underwhelming results.

Given how slow my mill plan tends to be though I have opted to have more controlling elements than to just push faster with my mill plan though. I think Mill is going to be slow enough that pushing for speed can be a mistake in that I don't think its ever going to be fast enough to outpace someone just curving proactive wincons against it.

Bruvac the Grandiloquent - I think this card is really cool. My fear though is how much of a target can be put on his back and I think you need to play him right before doing crazy big things. If you can get away with playing him out early and opponents ignoring it then I think he is great. I am a big target myself so I try to go for fast results and my concern with him is how many pieces assembled it takes for him to really show up and do profitable things. This deck needs to flip its commander and start milling with something before he really becomes profitable and even at that point he often can be as profitable as just having found any second mill engine from the deck. Where he is really going to shine is if you are fully set up with 2+ mill effects set up. I would generally call that a little bit winmore though as the setup assembly for him to be better than just drawing another mill card is going to be narrow. As a commander he is interesting but I also struggle to feel that there is that much viable mill in mono blue.

Alt Wincons - Its possible I could add more damage as a backup wincon. I think some of the easier additions would be to just throw in a random equipment like Blackblade Reforged which could be equipped to go voltron. I haven't had enough of an issue with my primary mill wincon but I would say I have still probably killed something like 10% of players with just random beats in the air which seems very odd as this deck is really not geared for that lol. Lion Sash has been reasonable as a pump effect though and I know I have killed a few players off the back of that card. I have mostly not been having overly large issues with my primary mill wincon but I could also see something like Approach of the Second Sun being something for those who want a few more ways to push the win button. I am a big advocate of running light on dedicated wincons though so I like how my mill effects are also a draw engine for me with my current approach.
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bashrag
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Post by bashrag » 1 year ago

I was trying to build a budget version of this with stuff I had lying around and I'd put Altar of Dementia in. I quickly realized the card wasn't great and while looking for a replacement I realized I had Pyre of Heroes.

Dennick into Trinket Mage into Academy Rector into... I don't know. The best Humans/Clerics I've seen at five mana are Stitcher Geralf, Bishop of Rebirth, and The Council of Four.

The Council of Four seems like generally good value. Stitcher Geralf gives some more mill and some value from the creatures you've already milled. The Bishop of Rebirth lets you abuse your Trinket Mage. The only other way I can think of to get value out of the Bishop is adding something like Selhoff Occultist but there's probably a Soldier or a Human with an ETB ability at 3 mana that could be mined. I'm not sure it's worth it or even viable to attack with the Bishop though since she doesn't have evasion.

I'll try and think out a tutor chain worth following tomorrow.

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 1 year ago

bashrag wrote:
1 year ago
I was trying to build a budget version of this with stuff I had lying around and I'd put Altar of Dementia in. I quickly realized the card wasn't great and while looking for a replacement I realized I had Pyre of Heroes.

Dennick into Trinket Mage into Academy Rector into... I don't know. The best Humans/Clerics I've seen at five mana are Stitcher Geralf, Bishop of Rebirth, and The Council of Four.

The Council of Four seems like generally good value. Stitcher Geralf gives some more mill and some value from the creatures you've already milled. The Bishop of Rebirth lets you abuse your Trinket Mage. The only other way I can think of to get value out of the Bishop is adding something like Selhoff Occultist but there's probably a Soldier or a Human with an ETB ability at 3 mana that could be mined. I'm not sure it's worth it or even viable to attack with the Bishop though since she doesn't have evasion.

I'll try and think out a tutor chain worth following tomorrow.
Altar of Dementia is tricky in that its a sac outlet and it does milling but its unlikely that you are ever going to get to use it all that much. I put a copy in my list really early on and I wasn't impressed with it beyond it being an artifact sac outlet making it easier to find but when I stumbled over the idea of Witch's Oven I kind of quickly put the altar behind me.

I love Pyre of Heroes as a card so I would love to hear how your results turn out. Expanding beyond budget its also possible that a few other things could be interesting with this:

Ranger-Captain of Eos he can get Weathered Wayfarer and if you wanted to expand the one drops you could also add Ruin Crab back in if you want. I cut the crab early on but if you add a ranger package it could be something to consider again. If you have these two one drops it gives options for ramp, sac, and mill which covers a lot of bases to set up Dennick. Obviously from the Pyre standpoint pyre gives you a sac outlet but even just drawing Ranger-Captain could work here.

Recruiter of the Guard - Another three drop tutor and it can actually get a lot of different utility in the list currently.

I know the two cards I highlighted here aren't super budget friendly but I think they would be the strong three drops I would look at if I were exploring Pyre of Heroes myself. I did consider the idea of it myself but my concern was that I didn't think I really had very good chain options set up for it. I have one three drop human and two four drop humans and I just felt like it was a lot of work to get there was sort of my concern. I don't think its a bad idea but keep in mind its also going to be a bit off curve and going to take some intentionality to run it successfully.

The Council of Four - I came close to testing it myself. If you run it let me know how it goes. I might still give them a shot later but I do think they are sort of slow to play being a five drop. I like their stats and all of their potential triggers though.

Stitcher Geralf - I think its ok, the thing to keep in mind is that its a bit slow and expensive being a five drop that needs to tap and uses three mana on tap to do what it does. If you want to try it out on a budget / you own one go for it but I don't think I love it as you fill things in.

Bishop of Rebirth - I don't know if you are thinking instead of or in addition to Sun Titan but in general I think the fact that it loses out on the ETB and can't target as many types of permeants is a big loss. Sun Titan being a 6/6 is also a lot more impressive when it comes to attacking than a 3/4 which can be a lot easier to mob to death or get into board states that are hard to do any attacking with. I guess my point here is that you might see more success with something like Emeria Shepherd which does cost a little more mana but I think the power of Emeria is also a lot better.

I would love to hear any feedback and or how the deck runs for you. When assembling a deck and on a budget really whatever you have on hand / can get easily is the best solution. Run some cards that can ramp you mana, be controlling, and give you repeated triggers of mill. If you stick to those focuses for anything you have to fill it should turn out at least alright. The sac outlets will be tricky on a budget so make sure to give it enough focus to start.
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bashrag
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Post by bashrag » 1 year ago

ISBPathfinder wrote:
1 year ago

Altar of Dementia is tricky in that its a sac outlet and it does milling but its unlikely that you are ever going to get to use it all that much. I put a copy in my list really early on and I wasn't impressed with it beyond it being an artifact sac outlet making it easier to find but when I stumbled over the idea of Witch's Oven I kind of quickly put the altar behind me.

I love Pyre of Heroes as a card so I would love to hear how your results turn out. Expanding beyond budget its also possible that a few other things could be interesting with this:

Ranger-Captain of Eos he can get Weathered Wayfarer and if you wanted to expand the one drops you could also add Ruin Crab back in if you want. I cut the crab early on but if you add a ranger package it could be something to consider again. If you have these two one drops it gives options for ramp, sac, and mill which covers a lot of bases to set up Dennick. Obviously from the Pyre standpoint pyre gives you a sac outlet but even just drawing Ranger-Captain could work here.

Recruiter of the Guard - Another three drop tutor and it can actually get a lot of different utility in the list currently.

I know the two cards I highlighted here aren't super budget friendly but I think they would be the strong three drops I would look at if I were exploring Pyre of Heroes myself. I did consider the idea of it myself but my concern was that I didn't think I really had very good chain options set up for it. I have one three drop human and two four drop humans and I just felt like it was a lot of work to get there was sort of my concern. I don't think its a bad idea but keep in mind its also going to be a bit off curve and going to take some intentionality to run it successfully.

The Council of Four - I came close to testing it myself. If you run it let me know how it goes. I might still give them a shot later but I do think they are sort of slow to play being a five drop. I like their stats and all of their potential triggers though.

Stitcher Geralf - I think its ok, the thing to keep in mind is that its a bit slow and expensive being a five drop that needs to tap and uses three mana on tap to do what it does. If you want to try it out on a budget / you own one go for it but I don't think I love it as you fill things in.

Bishop of Rebirth - I don't know if you are thinking instead of or in addition to Sun Titan but in general I think the fact that it loses out on the ETB and can't target as many types of permeants is a big loss. Sun Titan being a 6/6 is also a lot more impressive when it comes to attacking than a 3/4 which can be a lot easier to mob to death or get into board states that are hard to do any attacking with. I guess my point here is that you might see more success with something like Emeria Shepherd which does cost a little more mana but I think the power of Emeria is also a lot better.

I would love to hear any feedback and or how the deck runs for you. When assembling a deck and on a budget really whatever you have on hand / can get easily is the best solution. Run some cards that can ramp you mana, be controlling, and give you repeated triggers of mill. If you stick to those focuses for anything you have to fill it should turn out at least alright. The sac outlets will be tricky on a budget so make sure to give it enough focus to start.
I love the Ranger Captain of Eos idea. I might shell out for it since it's such a staple in any white deck. Unfortunately, Recruiter is outside of the price range I'm comfortable dropping on a piece of cardboard.

I think I'll stop at 5 and run The Council of Four. It seems like what this deck wants to be doing.

I think the addition of Pyre of Heroes makes including Tezzeret, Betrayer of Flesh more appealing. The only question is if he's worse than a Thran Dynamo.

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 1 year ago

bashrag wrote:
1 year ago
I love the Ranger Captain of Eos idea. I might shell out for it since it's such a staple in any white deck. Unfortunately, Recruiter is outside of the price range I'm comfortable dropping on a piece of cardboard.

I think I'll stop at 5 and run The Council of Four. It seems like what this deck wants to be doing.

I think the addition of Pyre of Heroes makes including Tezzeret, Betrayer of Flesh more appealing. The only question is if he's worse than a Thran Dynamo.
There are pros and cons to Tezzeret. I find it challenging to defend planeswalkers in this type of deck which really wants to fly below the radar especially since most of the Propaganda effects don't protect walkers. The ability to free crack a clue per turn is really powerful but that is also assuming that you are at a stage of the game that that is what you want to do with your clues. Lots of the artificer cards give alternative uses for the artifacts that aren't necessarily related to cracking them.

Overall, I would probably lean a little towards Thran myself. I own copies of both and there are benefits to both but I think adding more walkers can draw attention and be a challenge to keep alive. If you do run Tezzeret though do let me know how it goes as its been on my radar for a bit.
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Post by ISBPathfinder » 1 year ago

bashrag wrote:
1 year ago
I got five games under my belt now with this version of Dennick.

https://www.moxfield.com/decks/72fiGapQDEus-YjoMtUTJw

Zero wins so far. Frankly, nothing even close to a win.

Opponents:
Pod 0 Sythis, Lord Myrkull, Unknown (I lost this one to dumb and mana screw so I'm not counting it)
Pod 1 Prosper, Kaervek the Merciless, and Sythis
Pod 2 Niv Mizzet Parun, Edgar Markov,
Pod 3 Windgrace, Samut, Voice of Dissent
Pod 4 Slimefoot, Faldorn, & Scarab God

This deck can deal fine with combat. At no point did I feel like getting attacked was a problem. The problem seems to be that nobody was winning through combat. In Pod 0 Sythis comboed out with Heliod/Ballista on like turn 5. Pod 1 Prosper stormed off and won off of Marionette Master. Pod 2 Niv Mizzet went off with Underworld Breach, Pod 3 Windgrace went off with Torment of Hailfire, Pod 4 Slimefoot comboed out with Chatterfang.

It's the first week with the deck and I like an uphill fight but this was rough. It feels like it just doesn't matter if I'm below the radar when the way most people win is by killing the entire table at once.

I need more card draw and a lot more ways to deal with combo/storm. Rule of Law effects would have done wonders in most of these pods. The problem is that that's very much against the ethos of the deck.

If anybody has better ideas I'd like to hear them.
Alright its interesting to hear about your meta. Seeing more and more combo is definitely the norm these days even though I don't love it. Can you give me more insight on how much interaction and control you see in your meta as usually as the combo tendencies increase so does the cheap instant speed interaction of decks. I sat down at a few tables that were cEDH this weekend even though I didn't like playing at that level it actually became quite a slot as everyone was removing everything played it felt like.

My meta does have combo but most of the time its not super fast. Games do end on turns 5/6 on occasion but I wouldn't say its a super regular thing for us. That said I do have games where I am setting up and tapping out and someone drops something that spirals the game out of control and leading to me losing.

If combat isn't a problem you could scale back on a few things like Kefnet the Mindful, Soul Warden, Eight-and-a-Half-Tails, Dawn Charm, Collective Restraint, Ghostly Prison, and Propaganda. I don't know to what degree these cards helped you against combat and to what degree you just aren't seeing combat being utilized. I still see a lot of tokens in my meta which is why I go so heavily on the Propaganda effects. As you let up on those you can also run more card draw or interaction of your choice. I have had really good results from Nimble Obstructionist if you are adding some interaction being that its a creature that goes to graveyard for a clue trigger while stopping a trigger which often interacts really well with combo being that you would have to have a stifle effect to interact back on it. It also draws a card when you do it so it has a lot of depth in how you deploy that stifle effect.

Oblivion Ring is also something you should probably upgrade to Banishment or Cast Out at a minimum if not some other effect. Having instant speed on that type of effect is going to be huge. I see a decent bit of tokens in my meta which is why I opted to include Banishment into my list. In the past I ran Cast Out but I removed it for Tamiyo's Compleation which can be used in a lot of the same ways. I really wanted at least one of these effects for Academy Rector though as it opens up some additional toolboxing. You don't have a rector in your list so I wouldn't say that having one of these effects is a must. I just wanted to give you some background on what I have / do run and why.

This deck isn't designed to win fast unfortunately. It does seem odd though how much combo you described but you didn't outline a lot of control elements in that which is often paired with combo intending to play against other combo. This deck should still be able to play against these sort of decks due to being a blue control based concept but if its up to you on your own to stop every deck from comboing off its not really designed to do that. Generally speaking its hard to stop every deck on your own but I wouldn't say you don't have the tools to interact. I would be interested to hear if you had counter play against anyone going off or how you used your interaction in these games.

Ramp - Your ramp game is less than mine. I get that some of it is that Urza, Lord High Artificer is expensive but you might want to consider Worn Powerstone / Thran Dynamo / Gilded Lotus. Cracking clues is expensive and a lot of this deck wants to have a lot of mana once you get going. I used to run more than I do now on mana generation which I cut back for more consistency in flipping my commander but your ramp does still seem a bit lower than mine.



I had one game with my own list this weekend which I will give a recap of. None of these opponents were especially combo based but I believe Zabaz does have some infrequent combos drawing his deck with Sensei's Divining Top. I would say that Rin is probably a bit weaker of these three decks but his ability to threaten my creatures is concerning. I am less familiar with Meren's deck but I assume he wins via Gray Merchant of Asphodel or something.

Opponents: Meren of Clan Nel Toth, Rin and Seri, Inseparable, and Zabaz, the Glimmerwasp

T1: Fetch into dualland
T2: Basic into commander
T3: land + attack. I think I get attacked back and just sort of don't gain anything.
T4: land Smothering Tithe. Meren plays a Fleshbag Marauder effect and I sac my commander.
T5: Play commander's disturb. Zabaz has a few creatures and plays his own Smothering Tithe but he lacks card draw to make his as threatening without having something that sacrifices artifacts for value which he lacks.

From here I annoy opponents with Tithe until I have 7-9 treasure and a few clues just from things randomly dying. I take a few pokes from my opponents mostly because I don't have defenses and a few know how annoying I get later lol. After building up some treasure I play Shimmer Dragon as both defense and draw. This is probably turn 6 or 7 and I start pushing on the draw.

Rin plays a Warstorm Surge which is very spooky and terrifying. Meren plays out a Caustic Caterpillar and is eyeballing the hell out of my board because of the Smothering Tithe (paired with the shimmer dragon) and my Soul-Guide Lantern against his graveyard deck. I make an agreement with him to draw a card off the Lantern if he kills Warstorm Surge with it which he agrees.

From here I get Academy Manufactor and Psychic Corrosion online and suddenly everyone is paying two on all their draws (I wonder why lol). My commander is generating triggers for me though and my hand is super flush with answers. I just play whack a mole for several turns against Zebaz who has some gross things he tries pushing on me repeatedly but ultimately he can do like one big thing a turn for several turns and I just stuff him in a box via Cryptic Command and some spot interaction He ends up conceding after a few turns of that while I draw like 10+ cards a turn.

Rin finally gets some dogs in play and kills my Academy Manufactor with his commander after a few turns of it in play. He has also managed to put like 10 commander damage on me by now but his commander isn't well geared for commander damage.

I drop a Teferi's Tutelage into play with my gross turbo draw in play. I am probably up to 25 artifact tokens at this point. I end up milling my opponents for a bunch here and deny a few things like Gray Merchant of Asphodel from Miren. I have a lot of draw but I am out of counter magic which lets a destroy all artifact / enchantments effect slip through from Rin. I do have a Grinding Station and Relic of Progenitus still in my hand though and the grave hate and additional mill makes them scoop.

This game probably resolved itself on.... maybe turn 10 which isn't that fast but I had a lot of interaction. I was in the lead most of the game starting when I played the Shimmer Dragon which is a bit out of the norm but was able to defend my position. If Rin had gotten to keep his Warstorm Surge especially at the cost of my Smothering Tithe I would have had a very hard time with this game as if I had lost the Tithe I likely would have lost my commander the next turn to Rin's surge play and I would have been shut down on new token generation. I can't really blame Miren taking up the deal to not get grave hated and be done with Warstorm Surge though.
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bashrag
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Post by bashrag » 1 year ago

ISBPathfinder wrote:
1 year ago
Alright its interesting to hear about your meta. Seeing more and more combo is definitely the norm these days even though I don't love it. Can you give me more insight on how much interaction and control you see in your meta as usually as the combo tendencies increase so does the cheap instant speed interaction of decks. I sat down at a few tables that were cEDH this weekend even though I didn't like playing at that level it actually became quite a slot as everyone was removing everything played it felt like.

My meta does have combo but most of the time its not super fast. Games do end on turns 5/6 on occasion but I wouldn't say its a super regular thing for us. That said I do have games where I am setting up and tapping out and someone drops something that spirals the game out of control and leading to me losing.

If combat isn't a problem you could scale back on a few things like Kefnet the Mindful, Soul Warden, Eight-and-a-Half-Tails, Dawn Charm, Collective Restraint, Ghostly Prison, and Propaganda. I don't know to what degree these cards helped you against combat and to what degree you just aren't seeing combat being utilized. I still see a lot of tokens in my meta which is why I go so heavily on the Propaganda effects. As you let up on those you can also run more card draw or interaction of your choice. I have had really good results from Nimble Obstructionist if you are adding some interaction being that its a creature that goes to graveyard for a clue trigger while stopping a trigger which often interacts really well with combo being that you would have to have a stifle effect to interact back on it. It also draws a card when you do it so it has a lot of depth in how you deploy that stifle effect.

Oblivion Ring is also something you should probably upgrade to Banishment or Cast Out at a minimum if not some other effect. Having instant speed on that type of effect is going to be huge. I see a decent bit of tokens in my meta which is why I opted to include Banishment into my list. In the past I ran Cast Out but I removed it for Tamiyo's Compleation which can be used in a lot of the same ways. I really wanted at least one of these effects for Academy Rector though as it opens up some additional toolboxing. You don't have a rector in your list so I wouldn't say that having one of these effects is a must. I just wanted to give you some background on what I have / do run and why.

This deck isn't designed to win fast unfortunately. It does seem odd though how much combo you described but you didn't outline a lot of control elements in that which is often paired with combo intending to play against other combo. This deck should still be able to play against these sort of decks due to being a blue control based concept but if its up to you on your own to stop every deck from comboing off its not really designed to do that. Generally speaking its hard to stop every deck on your own but I wouldn't say you don't have the tools to interact. I would be interested to hear if you had counter play against anyone going off or how you used your interaction in these games.

Ramp - Your ramp game is less than mine. I get that some of it is that Urza, Lord High Artificer is expensive but you might want to consider Worn Powerstone / Thran Dynamo / Gilded Lotus. Cracking clues is expensive and a lot of this deck wants to have a lot of mana once you get going. I used to run more than I do now on mana generation which I cut back for more consistency in flipping my commander but your ramp does still seem a bit lower than mine.
Hey, thanks for the thoughtful reply to a very whiny post.

As for the meta I'm seeing. I rarely see anyone play Stax or traditional control. I'm one of the few people I know who enjoy that playstyle. Some people will play proactive combo but that style requires expensive mana rocks. What I am seeing the vast majority of the time is midrange value into combo finishes. It's not unusual to see a combo attempt to be played on turn 6 but usually, you start to see people attempt to combo on turn 8 to 10 at which point EVERYBODY tries to combo. I hope that I didn't give the impression that I wasn't seeing combat. I meant that the deck is very good at directing it elsewhere.

Oblivion Ring was terrible and I've removed it. As soon as I can I'm going to get a copy of Banishment.

I've got a copy of Nimble Obstructionist and I'm going to add it as soon as I can find the damn thing.

A friend of mine is going to trade me an Urza.

I've gotten a few more games in and I've narrowed it down to just not drawing the cards I need. My plan, at this moment, is to add Rhystic Study and Mystic Remora until a time I can get a less annoying draw machine. I hadn't considered the lack of ramp as a problem since getting to the part of the game where cracking multiple clues a turn hasn't been happening. I'll keep an eye on how constrained I feel by mana after I figure out how to get a consistent flow of cards going.

Lantern of Insight has been helpful in the meanest way. It's helped me mana screw some people out of participating in the game at all. I'm not sure that it's worth it for the lulz though.

A card that I'm questioning right now is Timeless Dragon. It's not really ramp and while a flying 5/5 isn't a bad thing in and of itself I don't know if it's great. What do you think about replacing it with Dream Trawler? Another thought is Nautiloid Ship.

Confounding Conundrum seems questionable with Deep Gnome Terramancer. I'm running Oath of Lieges as a way to punish the ramp player and it has more synergy with the Gnome. If I can actually get a copy of the Archivist of Oghma it's got extra synergy with that card as well.

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 1 year ago

bashrag wrote:
1 year ago
Hey, thanks for the thoughtful reply to a very whiny post.

As for the meta I'm seeing. I rarely see anyone play Stax or traditional control. I'm one of the few people I know who enjoy that playstyle. Some people will play proactive combo but that style requires expensive mana rocks. What I am seeing the vast majority of the time is midrange value into combo finishes. It's not unusual to see a combo attempt to be played on turn 6 but usually, you start to see people attempt to combo on turn 8 to 10 at which point EVERYBODY tries to combo. I hope that I didn't give the impression that I wasn't seeing combat. I meant that the deck is very good at directing it elsewhere.

Oblivion Ring was terrible and I've removed it. As soon as I can I'm going to get a copy of Banishment.

I've got a copy of Nimble Obstructionist and I'm going to add it as soon as I can find the damn thing.

A friend of mine is going to trade me an Urza.

I've gotten a few more games in and I've narrowed it down to just not drawing the cards I need. My plan, at this moment, is to add Rhystic Study and Mystic Remora until a time I can get a less annoying draw machine. I hadn't considered the lack of ramp as a problem since getting to the part of the game where cracking multiple clues a turn hasn't been happening. I'll keep an eye on how constrained I feel by mana after I figure out how to get a consistent flow of cards going.

Lantern of Insight has been helpful in the meanest way. It's helped me mana screw some people out of participating in the game at all. I'm not sure that it's worth it for the lulz though.

A card that I'm questioning right now is Timeless Dragon. It's not really ramp and while a flying 5/5 isn't a bad thing in and of itself I don't know if it's great. What do you think about replacing it with Dream Trawler? Another thought is Nautiloid Ship.

Confounding Conundrum seems questionable with Deep Gnome Terramancer. I'm running Oath of Lieges as a way to punish the ramp player and it has more synergy with the Gnome. If I can actually get a copy of the Archivist of Oghma it's got extra synergy with that card as well.
Its worth noting that if your opponents are very light on answers it can be right to run cards that prevent them from executing their wincons rather than answers for the wincons. By that I mean that something like a Pithing Needle, Linvala, Keeper of Silence, Worship, or even something as odd as Platinum Angel which can be very fragile to interaction can completely shut down avenues of victory on your opponents. I am not saying that its necessarily the direction to shift but decks that are light on answers and just proactively try to go off are very weak to some hatebear effects if you can get the right one. I don't think it necessarily fits this deck's idea but shutting those decks down with transform, theft, or like a Drannith Magistrate.

Something worth thinking about here is that the artificer toolbox isn't bad in my list at least. I could also extend my artificer toolbox to include Tezzeret the Seeker and Fabricate if I had some really must have artifacts in my deck. The reason I say this is that if you can find some big time hate effects that shut down some of the more commonly run combos it might be worth it. Pithing Needle for instance is incredibly powerful at shutting some combos down and it fits into the Trinket Mage package but its also an effect that you have to have a lot of meta knowledge on what you are playing against and what combos they run and how to shut them down. Damping Sphere is another combo breaker effect I can think of that can shut down infinite cast loops but that still can be narrow in when it is or isn't good but if you know the meta it could be really useful.

Draw - The draw can be a bit hit or miss with this deck. The biggest concern is that usually it becomes really good as you get to later points of the game but getting the mana and token production to get to that point can be tricky and I have definitely experienced times where the draw can suck if you haven't gotten to the point where things are going off. Its tough to really say if its something that should be addressed more or not though because I have seen games where I just can't assemble anything and other games where I hit like turn 5 and I just break the game with draw. I would say keep experimenting with it and your list in general. I think its something you have to keep tinkering with especially while your list has some different spins and cards to it but I know what you mean its just tough to say because it either desperately needs some cards still or it seems to swim in clues. My experience has usually been that the first 5ish turns of the game I usually have like zero additional draw on average but things hopefully take off after that.

Lantern of Insight - Yea my experience is that opponents freaking hate cards that give away what they are drawing as well as give opponents options to screw with it. I don't think its amazing but opponents tend to really draw some hate from this sort of effect.

Timeless Dragon / Plainscycling / cycling in general - I wasn't that impressed by it. I wanted to like it just because it gives me a cheap means to get a creature to grave at instant speed with some option of some additional use to it but yea.... it wasn't crazy. I do think I could get behind some more cycling creatures I just don't love the options we have right now. I cut the dragon myself recently after testing it out a little but I never really felt like I found it that much in my testing but it also could have been when I found it. The idea was that finding it early in the game where I might need another land early on or right after flipping my commander it could be useful but I only really found the plainscycling stuff after I was spinning things up. Honestly I don't love the sphinxes but I could see something like a Fact or Fiction being budget friendly and fine if you want to try a little more draw. Dream Trawler in my opinion just lacks enough impact in this game its really slow and fair. Nautiloid Ship is in my opinion overpriced graveyard hate that is also sorcery speed effect with the hope of the payoff making it worthwhile. Most of my graveyard hate I am most impressed with having a good strong effect on it rather than trying to get some value back out of it so I am more impressed by timing and effect rather than trying to get some value and slowing down and increasing its cost.

Confounding Conundrum - I run this card in part as a meta choice due to an over abundance of ramp / landfall decks. I get your point on both cards at the same time being not so great but I would rather have the redundancy of hate on this type of deck. Lands has very little to hate on it that isn't heavily frowned on and I honestly need more consistency than what I have for hating on this sort of thing. Conundrum also cantrips when it enters so the downside of it is actually incredibly low. If I could run more copies of them I would. I get that if you get both of them at the same time they don't function well together but I want to hate on them more I just don't like some of the hate effects I have left that I could run like Aven Mindcensor where it feels like I actually have to commit a card to it. The chance of backfire on both of the ones I currently have is very low and one draws a card and the other if you get a single ramp from it it probably pays for itself. There are a few decks in my previous LGS (I just moved) that ran on the upside of like 15+ fetchland like effects to them and I just need to punish the hell out of landfall.
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Post by bashrag » 1 year ago

ISBPathfinder wrote:
1 year ago

Timeless Dragon / Plainscycling / cycling in general - I wasn't that impressed by it. I wanted to like it just because it gives me a cheap means to get a creature to grave at instant speed with some option of some additional use to it but yea.... it wasn't crazy. I do think I could get behind some more cycling creatures I just don't love the options we have right now. I cut the dragon myself recently after testing it out a little but I never really felt like I found it that much in my testing but it also could have been when I found it. The idea was that finding it early in the game where I might need another land early on or right after flipping my commander it could be useful but I only really found the plainscycling stuff after I was spinning things up. Honestly I don't love the sphinxes but I could see something like a Fact or Fiction being budget friendly and fine if you want to try a little more draw. Dream Trawler in my opinion just lacks enough impact in this game its really slow and fair. Nautiloid Ship is in my opinion overpriced graveyard hate that is also sorcery speed effect with the hope of the payoff making it worthwhile. Most of my graveyard hate I am most impressed with having a good strong effect on it rather than trying to get some value back out of it so I am more impressed by timing and effect rather than trying to get some value and slowing down and increasing its cost.

Confounding Conundrum - I run this card in part as a meta choice due to an over abundance of ramp / landfall decks. I get your point on both cards at the same time being not so great but I would rather have the redundancy of hate on this type of deck. Lands has very little to hate on it that isn't heavily frowned on and I honestly need more consistency than what I have for hating on this sort of thing. Conundrum also cantrips when it enters so the downside of it is actually incredibly low. If I could run more copies of them I would. I get that if you get both of them at the same time they don't function well together but I want to hate on them more I just don't like some of the hate effects I have left that I could run like Aven Mindcensor where it feels like I actually have to commit a card to it. The chance of backfire on both of the ones I currently have is very low and one draws a card and the other if you get a single ramp from it it probably pays for itself. There are a few decks in my previous LGS (I just moved) that ran on the upside of like 15+ fetchland like effects to them and I just need to punish the hell out of landfall.
I've gotten a few games in with this version of the deck.

https://www.moxfield.com/decks/72fiGapQDEus-YjoMtUTJw

I'm still not winning but I'm not losing without having a real effect on the game. Several of my losses have been from poor decisions and that's to be expected until I learn what is a real threat.

Thanks for the suggestions for stax pieces. The idea of dropping a Pithing Needle on a Kennrith is hilarious and it's an easy sub for Lantern of Insight. Damping Sphere seems like a fetchable bit of tech against quite a few decks.

I hadn't even realized that cycling Timeless Dragon was a way to get a Clue. For some reason, I hadn't connected that Dennick triggers off our own graveyard. You even told me in the previous post about Nimble Obstructionist! I am embarrassed.

I will reconsider Timeless Dragon in that light, as well as some creatures that sacrifice themselves. Given how taxing Dennick is to get back out I'm thinking about Selfless Savior and Alseid of Life's Bounty in particular.

Landfall is a problem. I've fought Aesi, Tyrant of Gyre Strait enough times to know that it's a serious pain to hate on without turning the whole table against you. My experience with Oath of Lieges has, thus far, been good. It allowed my table to catch up with a Karametra, God of Harvests deck recently and I think the table would have just been steamrolled if it hadn't been there. That said, Confounding Conundrum would have worked just as well and without ramping my opponents as well.

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 1 year ago

@bashrag its also worth mentioning that I don't know how you are playing the control / interaction elements of this deck. I tend to try to play as little of my interaction as possible using my opponents drawing cards / ramping / whatever as positive things that draw attention to them. I try to keep my interaction for as last second as possible often taking some small attacks and allowing opponents destroy my permenants unless I am running them over I very rarely play out my interaction outside of last second interaction when I have to. If you are less familiar with playing a control deck in commander this sort of strategy is something that can be harder to pick up on but your goal is usually to allow opponents to proactively play almost everything outside of things that will result in you losing the game or being locked out of the game. If your opponent plays a Warstorm Surge or something sure answer that but in a lot of cases the way I play the control of this deck is to not do anything until I have to which ensures I have answers still as people try to go off and kill me. Don't try to play this list like a traditional UW control throwing counter magic and spot removal all the time. That is how I handle it at least. Try to use the fact that your opponents are doing proactive things as a reason opponents should hit them / destroy their stuff rather than trying to do it yourself.

I just wanted to give you some insight on how I play the deck myself. Keeping your interaction for as long as you can makes you a lot harder to remove from the game. Don't worry about opponents destroying your things unless you have a lot of interaction / mana / boardstate generally let everything happen if it doesn't result in you dying in the next turn or being locked out of the game. I have seen a lot of players who can have some trouble identifying interaction targets and if your goal is a list similar to mine you really want to hold back on interacting with a lot of things just asking yourself "does this kill me" as when you interact. The times when you would actually cast Angel's Grace is generally when you want to time most of your interaction with this deck.
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Post by bashrag » 1 year ago

ISBPathfinder wrote:
1 year ago
@bashrag its also worth mentioning that I don't know how you are playing the control / interaction elements of this deck. I tend to try to play as little of my interaction as possible using my opponents drawing cards / ramping / whatever as positive things that draw attention to them. I try to keep my interaction for as last second as possible often taking some small attacks and allowing opponents destroy my permenants unless I am running them over I very rarely play out my interaction outside of last second interaction when I have to. If you are less familiar with playing a control deck in commander this sort of strategy is something that can be harder to pick up on but your goal is usually to allow opponents to proactively play almost everything outside of things that will result in you losing the game or being locked out of the game. If your opponent plays a Warstorm Surge or something sure answer that but in a lot of cases the way I play the control of this deck is to not do anything until I have to which ensures I have answers still as people try to go off and kill me. Don't try to play this list like a traditional UW control throwing counter magic and spot removal all the time. That is how I handle it at least. Try to use the fact that your opponents are doing proactive things as a reason opponents should hit them / destroy their stuff rather than trying to do it yourself.

I just wanted to give you some insight on how I play the deck myself. Keeping your interaction for as long as you can makes you a lot harder to remove from the game. Don't worry about opponents destroying your things unless you have a lot of interaction / mana / boardstate generally let everything happen if it doesn't result in you dying in the next turn or being locked out of the game. I have seen a lot of players who can have some trouble identifying interaction targets and if your goal is a list similar to mine you really want to hold back on interacting with a lot of things just asking yourself "does this kill me" as when you interact. The times when you would actually cast Angel's Grace is generally when you want to time most of your interaction with this deck.
In the first few games I was playing the control elements on combo pieces. That didn't work out since there aren't enough control cards to hold down everybody and Torment of Hailfire is a one-card combo. I'm saving my An Offer You Can't Refuse type cards for those. Like you said, counter the card that kills you.

Now that I'm getting more familiar with things that actually matter I'm using them more judiciously. I'm wary of cards that are repeatable removal of my enchantments like Aura Shards and Sunforger. In most of my decks I'd be running Torpor Orb and Suppression Field type effects to deal with those before they become a problem. Now I'm using counterspells as a way to keep them off the board but it's significantly harder since the best counterspells specifically target non-creature spells. More and more people are using Cathar Commandos and Caustic Caterpillars rather than Disenchant.

I've got a pretty good idea of how to play the deck now. It's just a matter of putting the time (and money) in at this point.

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 1 year ago

Ok, I haven't gotten to play much magic lately due to moving. I won't go into it just mentioning I haven't gotten to play this deck in new metas. It was cool seeing people playing some gradual win condition strategies and actually playing wraths again. My old meta was super chalked full of spot interaction and haymaker / combo wincons so I look forward to testing this deck in some new locations as I am sure some of my experience will vary with this.

I noticed that there are some of the promo cards for Commander Legends: Baldur's Gate Review that I didn't review so I wanted to circle back and look at them. All of the alternate versions and how the spoiler handled this set somehow made me miss reviewing some of them for this set so lets circle back and look at those.
  • Deep Gnome Terramancer - I did actually catch it in my original review and added it to my deck which is part of why its weird that I forgot to look at the others. I don't have enough experience seeing this to say much about it though.
  • Aboleth Spawn - I think this is a powerful ability but I also think its sort of a meta call on how much often it would be of use. Its cost and effect can be high and it has that flash gotcha factor but its also going to depend on what you can slide it in across from. What I like about it though is the low cost plus ward makes it sort of appealing even if you just expect to get a Solemn Simulacrum trigger its really cheap.
  • Astral Dragon - I think this effect is sweet but it probably belongs more in the flicker / reanimate / dragon tribal kind of decks. It is worth mentioning still in this sort of deck just because the non creature card count is somewhat high.
  • Clan Crafter - The fact that you can crack any artifact token like a clue that also powers up the commander is interesting. It does give some options to shift to voltron which is amusing. I don't know if its worth a card slot but it amused me enough to look at it for a second.
  • Zellix, Sanity Flayer - I thought about this card for some time and even looked at some of the background pairings thinking about it as a mill commander. In the end I don't think it plays well with the propaganda effects in our deck as far as a defensive measure. If it is the commander you might shift to a deck that is milling for trigger generation rather than as a wincon. I think it could be interesting but ultimately I didn't like it as much as what I have now with card draw in the command zone.
Overall, I thought a lot of these cards were interesting. I think if I am being honest Aboleth Spawn is likely the more likely consideration of them just being a low cost flash interaction that has high potential payoff. That said its also a card that might do nothing. Zellix, Sanity Flayer might be amusing but I don't really think that there is enough payoff in the deck to leverage 1/1 tokens beyond a defensive layer. If you shifted to Zellix as a commander you could either go for Folk Hero and do a Horror tribal deck which there is some cool new horror based support for or go for Inspiring Leader as a means to pump the tokens and go for more generation focus. I might try to pick up a copy or two of Aboleth Spawn just because it feels like a card that slots well into draw go strategies where the cost is low and the potential payoff is high.
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Post by bashrag » 1 year ago

I got to play a game with The Council of Four on the table by turn 3. It was very effective at keeping players off me and drew me a card on 2 out of 3 opponents' turns for several cycles of the table. It generated 14 Knights in the duration.

Unfortunately, the Knights scared one of the other players and I was killed by a 22/22 Animar that I couldn't remove or block.

In my estimation, it's a good card. The fact that it's so efficient at generating Knights seems like it might conflict with the whole "stay off the radar" thing.

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Post by bashrag » 1 year ago

Stenn, Paranoid Partisan is a card I intend to try. The ability to reduce the cost of my instants on my opponent's turns and then reduce the cost of my permanents on my turn if I don't have anything to spend the mana on is probably worth trying. In addition, he enables the possibility of a The Reality Chip and Sensei's Divining Top combo.

I've also added Dissipation Field as a way to deal with Reckless Fireweaver type effects, and returned Comeuppance to the deck.

Is there anything from the last few sets that you are considering?

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 1 year ago

bashrag wrote:
1 year ago
Stenn, Paranoid Partisan is a card I intend to try. The ability to reduce the cost of my instants on my opponent's turns and then reduce the cost of my permanents on my turn if I don't have anything to spend the mana on is probably worth trying. In addition, he enables the possibility of a The Reality Chip and Sensei's Divining Top combo.

I've also added Dissipation Field as a way to deal with Reckless Fireweaver type effects, and returned Comeuppance to the deck.

Is there anything from the last few sets that you are considering?
Sorry been a bit busy lately with IRL stuff but I have had a chance to play some games in the two new metas I have been playing in. Side note, I am seeing a lot less token tactics than in my previous meta and a LOT more combo than I had previously. I am also seeing a bit more voltron and just random big beater strategies which might result in me cutting something like Collective Restraint for something more Fog Bank like.

I have meant to do some set reviews given how much content has come out over this summer so lets go ahead and get some of those out of the way:

Dominaria:
  • Defiler of Dreams - I am just not heavy enough on colored permanents especially not of a specific color for the payoff of this card.
  • Defiler of Faith - I am just not heavy enough on colored permanents especially not of a specific color for the payoff of this card.
  • Haughty Djinn - Cost reduction is ok and it flies / has ok stats. I am not blown away but its probably ok. I go further into my issues with cost reduction in my explination of Stenn, Paranoid Partisan but I actually think this is a slightly superior card to that because it flies and has better stats meaning it can chump smaller creatures and possibly trade better or buy better blocks because it flies.
  • Leyline Binding - I think Oblivion Ring effects are usually kind of weak without flash (which yes this one has). Its amusing that this one could cost a single mana but it won't in this deck. This card is probably fine if you are running 4 or 5 color decks and outside of that I think its hands off.
  • Plaza of Heroes - This land is probably fine. Given how the deck tends to play sort of draw / go it could offer some fixing and the option to sacrifice to preserve Dennick in some situations during a board sweep or vs spot removal.
  • Serra Paragon - I was really hyped for this card and I bought two which I am / was playing in some other decks. After playing with it a little..... I am less hyped. I think that this sort of effect is actually kind of too fair if I am being honest. If you have good card draw then playing lands from the grave isn't actually that useful. I have actually been second guessing Sun Titan in my list lately and its more likely that I cut him and have less of this sort of effect than go for more of it.
  • Stenn, Paranoid Partisan - The long of my explination of why I don't like cost reduction in a deck like this is that I think you need to have an abundance of cards that catch the cost reduction in a meaningful way and you also probably need to be proactively churning through those cards which tends to make cost reduction a lot better with effects that allow you to also draw cards or somehow recast your spells. I currently have a fairly balanced deck with similar creature / enchantment / instant spells and a slightly lacking artifact count. That means that cost reduction for me isn't very useful unless its something that is broad and reduces more than one category like cost reducing all white / blue / noncreature effects. Beyond that if you look at my instants most of them are reactive rather than proactive spells I would cast meaning that cost reduction is a bit so so in that I don't know if I will be casting multiple of them or cracking clues with remaining mana. I don't think that cost reduction works that well on a deck like this and you also need to take into account spells that cost a single colored mana or are heavily color restrictive like Cryptic Command where the cost reduction doesn't do nothing but a lot of the hard part of that spell is having the UUU up to cast it.
  • Vodalian Hexcatcher - This isn't a merfolk / changeling deck so it probably doesn't work out here but the idea of a cheap counterspell that also makes a clue always makes me look at it briefly. I think that counter unless you pay one is tough to pull off though ultimately and definitely not for two mana.
My overall thoughts on Dominaria are mostly a pass at this time. I was excited for Serra Paragon but after some testing I am less so. I think she can still perform in decks where you have multiple land plays in a turn as kind of a bad Crucible of Worlds but man she really isn't even impressive as that. Plaza of Heroes is probably a playable card in most decks especially so for those that tend to play more draw / go like this one.

Warhammer:
  • Sceptre of Eternal Glory - I think there are decks where this might function very similarly to Thran Dynamo / Gilded Lotus but I suspect it will likely be more for decks that are mono colored or using a lot of basic lands in a two colored deck which isn't my list. I go back and forth on the mana producing artifacts in my list for this deck but ultimately I don't think I would get this card for this deck.
  • Sicarian Infiltrator - Its not that efficient when you compare it against cards like Blue Sun's Zenith but the trash token copies could be useful in chump blocking and generating clues slowly. I wouldn't write it off but I also don't think I am overly excited by it just because the tokens don't fly / have good stats.
  • Sister of Silence - amusing but also kind of expensive. Its cool that it can counter instant / sorcery spells or be a Stifle but man five mana is a lot for this effect.
  • Space Marine Devastator - I am annoyed that it costs 4 mana for this effect but at least white is lowering its bar as before now I believe there was a white Reclamation Sage at five mana so this is a nice move up and I do think that when you look at the stats gained across 2+ copies of this its actually quite good and it could be useful to just drop a good bit of stats into play. Getting a few bodies in play for blocking and generating clues might be worth it. I don't like tapping out heavily on my turn but this could be good enough to run.
  • The Golden Throne - Its probably not a great protection effect if I am being honest but it can still rebuff a Craterhoof Behemoth attack so its not nothing. In my opinion though defensive cards like this tend to just get targeted heavily by opponents. What I do think is fairly decent though is its sacrifice element. You could play this out when you get to 5 mana and sac and play Dennick back to play. The fact that its a sac outlet, mana producer, and survivability card might make it reasonable.
  • Vexilus Praetor - The protection it provides is alright I just think its rather expensive as a strictly commander protect effect for this deck at least but it might make a lot more sense for a voltron type commander as it protects them and makes them unblockable. I doubt I would run it for Dennick just because I don't think it does more for me in this deck than a counterspell could do for me instead.
I might try to get my hands on The Golden Throne for some testing. I did highlight Space Marine Devastator as well I just don't really know where I stand on it but maybe I pick up a copy for testing.

Unfinity - I have no interest in running or even reading what these cards do. I am a stick in the mud and I don't like these sets. Its fine that they made them black boardered as long as they can abide by the rules of the game but most of these type of cards just annoy me so I am not going to review these because well... no I don't want to.



I do have some cards I am working on seeing if I can't get some swaps for but I don't have my thoughts ready on that yet. I did stumble over the idea of Read the Runes though and I think I really like the idea of that card in this deck where early on it can provide a sac outlet for Dennick and later on there are several milling cards that would take advantage of a draw X card for a big shot of milling. It really feels like the early game sac potential on the commander overcomes the normal downside of X mana draw spells which tends to be that they suck in the early game even though its not as powerful later in the game I think it offers a lot of options which could be very good to have. Its also amusing that I could use it to sac clues in a pinch to keep cards kind of like a cheap option of cracking clues. We can also discard creatures from hand potentially as part of the discard allowing Dennick to create a clue. It seems like a sweet effect so I will probably try to bring that in for some testing.

I will try to follow up with some changes soon as I need to adjust a bit more to the fact that I am in a combo meta now. It might mean more cheap and fast interaction out of me.
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Post by bashrag » 1 year ago

"Unless it's something that is broad and reduces more than one category like cost reducing all white / blue / noncreature effects."

That's exactly why I'm interested in Stenn, Paranoid Partisan. If my hand is heavy on any particular type of card I'll just name that type. The fact that I can change the cost reduction after I pop off a Universal Surveillance and he combos with two cards that the deck is already set up to tutor for makes me think he's worth the test.

I play the deck every Wednesday at "Commander Fun Night" and I usually get in a few games a week. Hopefully, I'll know quickly if he's worth the card slot.

The Golden Throne feels iffy. On the one hand, it's another thing that someone has to go through to kill me. On the other hand, it just kind of sits there and baits artifact removal if I have no creatures to sac and outside of Dennick I usually don't. It was on my radar though and it might be worth trying.

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 1 year ago

It might work out for you I get the whole reset to another type idea I just don't think it really makes sense to spend three mana at end of one turn to cost reduce for the next turn. In a lot of cases you could just instead crack some clues so I think that competes with mana to some degree. You are running some combos which I am not so maybe that makes it better.

I agree that Golden Throne seems a bit questionable. I do think that its still useful as an emergency interaction though even if I had to sacrifice my flipped Dennick to emergency interact that could still be a viable interaction. I don't think that its a consistent accessible effect but it is a sac outlet and it does more than just that which is part of why I have at least a little interest in it.
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Post by ISBPathfinder » 1 year ago

Alrighty, its been a while and I have been kicking around some ideas and concepts long enough that I am going to make some changes and do some testing and see where we go from there. I am not convinced that any of the new cards are any good but I ordered some copies and I want to do some testing at the least to rule them out if they aren't. It is worth mentioning I did some testing of Aboleth Spawn and while I am not convinced to add it to my own list I thought it was worth mentioning that I think its going to ultimately be a card that individual metas will dictate a lot of how useful it is based on how many generic value ETB decks are run vs niche concepts. In the past ETB tactics were far more popular but wizards has diversified enough that I am less certain of including a card like this. I do think that if you can get away with a few triggers it can be incredible but if you don't see a lot of generic and powerful effects like Solemn Simulacrum / Reclamation Sage run in your meta its harder for me to really endorse. I got stuck with it in hand in some cases where it just wasn't doing anything and I wasn't too happy with it but I also think its wrong to write it off as not worth doing. I just wanted to make a note that I did do some testing even though it didn't make it into my digital list but I think its going to be heavily dictated by what your meta plays rather than being a blanket effect to run or not run across all metas.
  • Archivist of OghmaTrickbind I wanted a little more for interaction against combo decks and right now a lot of the ones I am seeing seem like they can be shut down by Trickbind. Archivist has not been impressive in my testing.
  • Sun TitanSpace Marine Devastator I am not really sure on the Devastator but its a creature based answer that can scale sidways and create some creatures that can block / be saced to make clues. I just haven't been feeling Sun Titan in this deck lately as it makes assumptions that my opponents interact with me rather than trying to race.
  • Tamiyo's CompleationFog Bank with the addition of Banishment I think I am ok with just having one of the two of these answers in and while Tamiyo's is far more powerful I think I prefer the broad answer over the more powerful commander answer given that I try to play pillow fort with this. My shift back to using Fog Bank in my 99 is in part due to shifting what metas I play in again and seeing more powerful single card threats than I did in my previous meta. Fog Bank can still suffer from opponents using large size + trample but I think something to keep large attackers at bay is still useful for this concept and its something I want just a touch more of I think for now. Its also worth mentioning that I feel like I see a little less of the overwhelming commander focused decks right now where as in the past there were a few more commander centric decks that could really run
  • Collective RestraintThe Golden Throne the propaganda effects haven't been doing as much for me lately and I have wanted more sac outlets and means to stall off death via combos. I don't know that its great but I want to test it out.
  • Whir of InventionRead the Runes Whir has been more awkward than I had thought it would be. Early on it can function as a sac outlet by tutoring up Witch's Oven but the problem there is that its a 4 mana play which is ideally when I would want to flip Dennick. Beyond that it also can be really rough having UUU by turn 4 and I think that has been the larger issue I have had with Whir. As games go late I don't really have anything super juicy that I find myself wanting to have Whir to go and get for me but I guess its funny that I could have instant speed grave hate it just hasn't been as impressive as I have wanted it to be. Read the Runes gives me the early game sac option still and I like how it can work with the mill whenever I draw effects too. The option to sac tokens as an option to bloat my hand up is good too and its something I get to decide after I see the cards I have drawn. I think its an interesting early and late concept that I want to give a shot.
  • Emeria, the Sky RuinPlaza of Heroes I have had a very hard time setting Emeria up to function in this deck. I think that Plaza as a means to protect Dennick is probably safer and I think it still fixes well for what I need to accomplish in the early game while being a land that enteres untapped at every stage and producing mana which is enough for me to be happy including one. Its possible that I might want to still cut one of the always tapped fetchable dual lands I was trying to run to support this.


    These next changes are all related. As I decided to cut Diamond Valley and Emeria, the Sky Ruin from my list I decided to add a package to the list that can conflict some with enabling Emeria to function. The below package of three lands is an opening hand Weathered Wayfarer setup that I like to do that starts with T1 Weathered Wayfarer. T2 tutor and play Flagstones of Trokair. T3 tutor and play Lotus Field ramping off of Flagstones. T4 tutor and play Thespian's Stage using it to copy Lotus Field. This is a four turn opener but it results in being -1 total lands but those lands tap for 7 mana with 3 lands in play. I have used this in other decks that don't have a strong early game strategy and while it does interfere with playing and flipping Dennick I think its a viable opener and wayfarer can still get High Market or other ramp like Temple of the False God / Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx.
  • Diamond ValleyLotus Field
  • Glacial FloodplainFlagstones of Trokair
  • Prismatic VistaThespian's Stage
I also figured I would highlight a few cards that were in my consideration for this load of changes. I was looking for more sacrifice outlets as well as things that might trigger clue generation in some unique ways here. I really wish there were more cards like A Little Chat that can function as sac outlets but also be reasonable cards on their own merit.

Considerations:
Burnished Hart
Impulse
Strategic Planning
Otherworldly Gaze
Fateful Absence
Worthy Cause
Renounce the Guilds
Angelic Purge
Aura Thief
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ISBPathfinder
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Post by ISBPathfinder » 1 year ago

Not a lot to report of late. I think I have managed to play magic on one occasion in the last two months and I did manage to play this deck to a narrow second place in a very close game where I sort of lost because I got milled back in return which was awkward but also a bit amusing. I don't have much for updates though with only having played one game though. I did manage to see Space Marine Devastator in that game but never cast it as I drew it late and my problems by then were not things he could answer.

Jumpstart 2022:
  • Alandra, Sky Dreamer - Its a creature and it makes tokens when I am doing things I want to be doing and those tokens fly. So, I think its fine but I also think it doesn't really work when my deck isn't working and what it does is going to be defense based or backup plan based in that I am a mill deck primarily. Tokens that fly can die though which makes clues I am just thinking like what if I can't maintain clues or keep my commander flipped this card just seems like it works when my deck is working and it doesn't when my deck flounders. Beyond that going on the offense with this is going to be backup plan material primarily.
  • Hold for Questioning - It does investigate and locks up a permeant. The issue I have is primarily that it doesn't seem like its particularly effective at either part of what its doing. It cost four mana and triggered abilities still go off. I just feel like its over priced for what it does and not even that powerful of an answer considering it costs 4.
Honestly nothing really stands out all that much to me with Jumpstart 22 which is fine. I know people like having these reprint heavy sets they just aren't really for me. I think these are fine to exist I just don't get that excited for new sets all that often anymore especially not with the premium sets.

Phyrexia - All will be One:
  • Clever Concealment - Its not as good as Teferi's Protection but I still think its decent. There are a few problems as to why I won't be including it in this list mostly tied to the fact that it can only phase out my own permenants paired with its high cost and that the convoke can be hard to really do well with this deck as I am not super creature heavy. Ultimately most situations where this card would be useful a counterspell would also work. Its true that you could phase out vs a sweeper and make everyone else feel it still but there are a lot of other effects that you can counter outside of just sweepers. I do run some other phase out tactics but they have more versatility than this card in my mind. Where this card probably shines is when you don't have access to blue and you go wide.
  • Elesh Norn, Mother of Machines - I think that double ETB and shutting down ETB are both valid in commander but I also think they tend to be heavily targeted for hate. I think this card does good things but I also think that its mana cost might be prohibitive in it seeing much play at least for me. It doesn't fall into any of the tribal archetypes and I struggle to think of a lot of decks I build these days that would want a more expensive Panharmonicon that has a color identity attached to it. I am not saying that its unplayable but I don't think I will play this card much given that it doesn't check a lot of boxes for me (being the cost being high and creature type mostly irrelevant).
  • Mondrak, Glory Dominus - This is a token based deck that values having some access to sacrifice and has a little bit of fear when it comes to mass removal. I think this card checks a lot of boxes for me as far as the multi function of it. Its probably my favorite card as far as this deck goes that got spoiled for a while at least. I really want to get my hands on a copy and see how it goes.
  • Norn's Decree - Poison only matters if you have 10 and I think there is just too much flexability given to opponents with this card. They could attack you with 1000 creatures and kill you in one attack and there would be no issue as the trigger wouldn't go on the stack. Likewise if they are voltron its unlikely you ever get to 10 counters on them before you die. I just don't think its very good without also being on poison counters as a strategy already. I generally want my defenses to stop my opponents from being able to kill me rather than function in a counter pain function like this. Something like Propaganda can easily stop a lot of attacks from ever happening and I think its better to run with those tactics.
  • Phyrexian Vindicator - Its a cool design and a cool mythic but it scales poorly to commander as a format. I don't really expect that it will see much play as a whole but it might see some in standard (entirely depending on what that format looks like). This card is a cool design but its not broken enough for most formats of magic these days.
  • White Sun's Twilight - It doesn't fit this deck but I just wanted to give it a bit of a nod that this one is probably playable. Its going to probably need to be in a token deck but at seven mana sweeping the rest of the board and being set up with 5+ tokens is probably fine. Beyond this if you pair it with green and or red you can make the X much larger or possibly pair it with haste for more impressive results. Toxic is more tame than infect but I think this is probably still a fairly good card, just not for this deck.
  • Ichormoon Gauntlet - I have gone a planeswalker light strategy so this card doesn't really work here. I do think this probably encourages some unfortunate deck design concepts as it feels like its there to make infinite lock planeswalker strategy which I think is a negative for me.
  • Mirran Safehouse - Humm well I kind of like this effect. I think there was a similar artifact a while back but functioned off of lands in play. I like this one more as it can function as a fetchland easier but it also functions as a Myriad Landscape easier given that its going to have access to that effect easier plus it comes in untapped and can tap as mana fairly easy. It does have the downside that it might be a little harder to work in the early turns of the game but its not like I am not running fetches myself.
  • Soulless Jailer - This looks like another take on Grafdigger's Cage. I have never been too fond of these effects as while they are powerful they are temporary stopgaps that can leave you in a bad spot if and when they get answered. Its part of why I prefer exiling cards from graveyards over stopping them from being played. This new one is stronger in that it stops all permeants from being played from graveyard which does stop other things like Crucible of Worlds rezing lands and such too.
  • Staff of Compleation - Its a sac outlet and does other stuff. I should totally want that right? Well, its tough to say as this deck is really slow to actually kill people and its overall lifegain is fairly negligible mostly isolated to the front side of the commander whom I am actively trying to kill off. I think this card concept is cool but I would probably want to run it in a deck with a little more lifegain or a faster wincon.
  • Sword of Forge and Frontier - Thats..... probably one of the strongest swords we have seen. If I have a gripe about it its the consistency of this deck and how we tend to play. Lots of the cards in this deck are answers and need to be timed somewhat specifically in regards to the exile two cards and you can play them this turn. If you exile spot removal, counterspells, Angel's Grace for instance they aren't going to be very good in that situation. It will however rummage well with lands and most of the mill tactics and defenses of this deck. I just wanted to point out that while I think this is a REALLY good sword it tends to be a little better in decks that have a more proactive gameplan rather than a reactive one. I do think I want to test this sword out but it does lose a little bit in my book for this deck but I don't doubt I want a few copies of this for decks as a whole.
I am not going to jump into deck changes right now in part because its been a bit too long since I really got to play much but I do expect to get my hands on a copy of Mondrak, Glory Dominus at the least. I also suspect I will pick up some copies of the sword even if I think it might not work out for this deck I have plenty of decks that effect looks good for.
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