[Official] State of Modern Thread (B&R 07/13/2020)

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Simto
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Post by Simto » 1 year ago

Necrofish wrote:
1 year ago
I don't like 3feri.

However, I'll keep an eye on how the meta evolves with him. The best strategy is probably to never let him hit the board.
With the influx of PWs though I wouldn't be surprised if we saw some new PW kill spells in the near future.
Something like The Elderspell? :)

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Post by Necrofish » 1 year ago

Simto wrote:
1 year ago
Necrofish wrote:
1 year ago
With the influx of PWs though I wouldn't be surprised if we saw some new PW kill spells in the near future.
Something like The Elderspell? :)
Price of Betrayal should do the same job in most cases. I don't play any walkers of my own and would much prefer instant interaction, but I have a playset of them anyway.
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Post by Ulka » 1 year ago

Necrofish wrote:
1 year ago
Simto wrote:
1 year ago
Necrofish wrote:
1 year ago
With the influx of PWs though I wouldn't be surprised if we saw some new PW kill spells in the near future.
Something like The Elderspell? :)
Price of Betrayal should do the same job in most cases. I don't play any walkers of my own and would much prefer instant interaction, but I have a playset of them anyway.

Sadly that is a sorcery but I know what you mean the versatility and options it provides even at sorcery is still better
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TheAnswer
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Post by TheAnswer » 1 year ago

I know a huge chunk of why this thread brought up PW answers is 3feri, which doesn't allow instant-speed kill spells, so the Sorcery feature at least for that card shouldn't matter much.

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Post by metalmusic_4 » 1 year ago

I am a paper player, so deck evolution moves slower in my circles, but i havent run into a problem with t3feri yet. The problems in my area are still dredge and pheonix. I'm on neobrand now that the hogaak deck is weakend so much.

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Post by Wolffman » 1 year ago

I think that banning Bridge from Below was a good move and it seems like most people around here agree, so props to WOTC for fixing the issue as quickly as they did. It will be interesting to see what decks people choose to play in the wake of the banning, the introduction of the London mulligan, and the addition of all our new-to-modern cards. I have concerns about looting still enabling the most powerful decks in phoenix and dredge, but enough things are changing right now that I could be wrong.

I'll personally be playing some death's shadow since I feel that discard spells will be in a good place if the London mulligan encourages more aggressive mulligans.

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Post by The Fluff » 1 year ago

Necrofish wrote:
1 year ago
I don't like 3feri.

However, I'll keep an eye on how the meta evolves with him. The best strategy is probably to never let him hit the board.
With the influx of PWs though I wouldn't be surprised if we saw some new PW kill spells in the near future.
will be better if it's a pw kill spell that has two modes like Hero's Downfall which can also be used to kill creatures and manlands, less chance to be a dead card if the opponent does not draw their walker.
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Simto
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Post by Simto » 1 year ago

Necrofish wrote:
1 year ago
Simto wrote:
1 year ago
Necrofish wrote:
1 year ago
With the influx of PWs though I wouldn't be surprised if we saw some new PW kill spells in the near future.
Something like The Elderspell? :)
Price of Betrayal should do the same job in most cases. I don't play any walkers of my own and would much prefer instant interaction, but I have a playset of them anyway.
That art on that card is so dope!

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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 1 year ago

An answer for "has this always been a format where people complain about banned and unbanned cards?"

Yes, that's why this thread is so long. I complained before when Sword of the Meek was banned, while Rite of Flame was not banned. I had played both cards quite a bit in other formats, namely Extended. There is probably not a single person who thinks that every choice Wizards has made coincides with their own choices. There's people that believe Umezawa's Jitte should be unbanned, while Stoneforge Mystic is untouchable. You don't believe me? Ask Ross Merriam on Twitter or whatever kids these days use.

I hated this format. I am somewhat happy that Bridge from Below got banned, even if I kind of wished it happened after a few more tournaments for me (not Magic Fests, but local Qualifiers, SCG IQ that just recently came to San Diego). For me personally, every single format that Modern has had since the beginning, which admittedly I don't know much before mid 2012 (as Lord Seth alludes to) because I was playing mostly Standard at the time, every format has been fine to me outside of Eye of Ugin Winter and this "Hogaak time." This one was short lived. I would have liked to see it go at least to the next ban announcement - when's that? Probably a month I'm guessing?
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Post by ProphetJJ » 1 year ago

The next B&R is 26th August. We have the longest MC/GP Season since WAR and MH1 got out. If they haven't risked banning Hogaak now it would be a long period of this meta and drawing negative attention to the format. It was innevitable that something would have to be banned from it and I'm glad it was Bridge and glad it was done now.

Looting has a red flag but I'm really scared of what would happen if Looting was banned. I may very well be mistaken but I seriously doubt that most of the Looting decks would straight up die. Fair ones and unfair ones. This would shaken the pillars of the format way too much. Ancient Stirrings, Noble/Vial and SV/Opt would be the only way to go and that kills the format diversity we kinda enjoy about the format.

I said this many times already (mainly on MTGS) but GY/Looting decks are a part of the format and we should embrace that. Surgical is our Force of Will. so let's play it like another type of interaction we would play in our decks. I fear that if we try too much to remove the gy from Modern, we'll get a mess of a format as a result. IMHO playing Surgicals main is absolutely reasonable and probably expected even after Hogaak being banned. The only issue was that even with Surgicals and RiPs/Leylines we weren't properly able to contain the deck.
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Post by Simto » 1 year ago

FoodChainGoblins wrote:
1 year ago
There's people that believe Umezawa's Jitte should be unbanned, while Stoneforge Mystic is untouchable. You don't believe me? Ask Ross Merriam on Twitter or whatever kids these days use.
I'm glad Umezawa's Jitte is banned hehe, it's %$#% insane! One of my nephews has it in one of his "anything goes" decks and he wins every single time it lands hehe. It's just insane.
I remember that SCG unbanned list tournament they had. It was all Eldrazi with jittes in the top.

I don't think Looting should be banned. Half the format would die, it would warp into something else and everybody would start yelling for bans about whatever deck would be the new boogieman

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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

It always feels to me like thinking cards like Jitte or Stoneforge are too powerful are imagining a format that simply doesn't exist today. Midrange creature battles, card-advantage-matters, long-game value engines; those are the kinds of environments where cards like this shine. And while elements of that have always existed, especially at lower tier levels, they have simply not been the face of Modern for many, many years. I just have such a hard time imagining these cards having any meaningful impact in a format of Dredge, Phoenix, Titan, Tron, Urza Thopter, and the new iterations of UW PW Prison and Wrenn-Drinker Jund. They may have a small impact on Humans, but Humans has such a fast clock and is packed with its own disruption anyway, I can't imagine it would be too affected by either.

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Post by LeoTzu » 1 year ago

I agree with you on Jitte. The crazy stuff that happens in Modern makes me wonder if Jitte could even make a dent in the format. That being said, the card is pretty nuts and I don't think it adds anything good to the format, so I'm fine with it staying on the banlist.

If it is as busted as some people think, there's no reason to unban it.

If it's as useless in the format as some others think, it's pointless to unban it.

If it's just "fine" in Modern, does it do anything to make the format better by unbanning it? Probably not. At best it just lets you auto-win combat for the rest of the game.

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Post by Simto » 1 year ago

%$#%!!! I've been procrastinating buying a playset of Hexdrinkers the last week or so and now I see it's spiked up to double price so it's around €17 a piece........................
Does everything Jund touches get expensive?

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Post by Albegas » 1 year ago

Simto wrote:
1 year ago
%$#%!!! I've been procrastinating buying a playset of Hexdrinkers the last week or so and now I see it's spiked up to double price so it's around €17 a piece........................
Does everything Jund touches get expensive?
Yes. It's a law of the universe: Jund must always be the most expensive deck in Modern and all mainstay mythics must be worth at minimum $20 :p

Personally I'm surprised that Hexdrinker managed to find homes in Modern. My LGS was joking at prerelease that it seemed absurd that they'd make a card that was so good in limited and yet almost unusable in constructed. Once again I've managed to prove to myself that I'm incapable of appraising new cards

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Post by Simto » 1 year ago

Albegas wrote:
1 year ago
Simto wrote:
1 year ago
%$#%!!! I've been procrastinating buying a playset of Hexdrinkers the last week or so and now I see it's spiked up to double price so it's around €17 a piece........................
Does everything Jund touches get expensive?
Yes. It's a law of the universe: Jund must always be the most expensive deck in Modern and all mainstay mythics must be worth at minimum $20 :p

Personally I'm surprised that Hexdrinker managed to find homes in Modern. My LGS was joking at prerelease that it seemed absurd that they'd make a card that was so good in limited and yet almost unusable in constructed. Once again I've managed to prove to myself that I'm incapable of appraising new cards
I thought it looked sick from I saw it the first time hehe.... I hesitated with preordering it... then it spiked up to €10... and not I hesitated again and it doubled again.... Why am I so stupid.

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Post by The Fluff » 1 year ago

Hexdrinker has been seeing some success in the Stompy thread in salvation, and in the temur tempo thread as well. From what I read in the tourney reports, it was levelled up to mini progenitus mode when games go a bit long.
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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

Well, Hexdrinker a 2 power 1 drop that, by turn 3 can be immune to Push/Path/Bolt. Seems right at home in a deck playing 6+ discard spells.

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Post by Zorakkiller » 1 year ago

how do we get wotc to follow through on their stated goal of having modern be a turn 4 format?

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Post by Arkmer » 1 year ago

I do t know if the numbers have changed or how it was done but [mention]ktkenshinx[/mention] laid out a set of data showing the average turn ending on 4-5(?). That was a few months ago and on MTGS, if I recall correctly. I’m sure any recent data would be influenced by the now banned Bridge from Below and therefore fairly useless.

Point being that the last data set that a good amount of effort was put into shows that this is a T4 format. Personally, i think with garbage like Hollow One falling out of favor, the format is probably right where it needs to be as far as speed. If the previous assessment of T4-5 is still correct, then my only argument with the format is from an interactivity angle. Which, other than T3feri may actually be on the rise again. It’s tough to tell sometimes.
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Post by Zorakkiller » 1 year ago

decks are winning before turn 4. this conflicts with wotc's stated goal

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Post by Albegas » 1 year ago

Decks have always been been allowed to win before turn 4. The goal of the T4 rule is to make sure no T1 or T2 deck is winning before T4 too frequently. If memory serves, the lowest T3 winrate of any deck banned for being a T4 rule violator was somewhere around 18-20%. Either way, any deck is allowed to get a good string of cards and win before T4. I believe Gifts Storm's T3 win rate was somewhere around 12% before it completely fell off the radar and Wizards did nothing to it

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Post by Zorakkiller » 1 year ago

what's too frequently? it seems wotc is inconsistent with enforcing this rule.

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Post by Albegas » 1 year ago

I keep getting runtime errors when I try to access MTGSalvation, so I don't have access to the data KTK gathered, but if memory serves the lowest known T3 game win rate before eating a ban was about 20%, which I believe was held by Infect before Gitaxian Probe was banned. Beyond that, Wizards has never given a hard cutoff for what percentage of wins constitutes too many T3 wins. At the very least, we know can likely assume based on them never touching Gifts Storm before Phoenix rode into town that a deck can win about 10% of its games before T4 and Wizards won't really care. We also know based on this tweet by Aaron Forsythe that they don't care if a deck can easily goldfish a T3 kill if it doesn't happen enough in practice

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Post by Zorakkiller » 1 year ago

so this is really just a way for wotc to arbitrarily ban things, knowing they will never give us the real data and the vagueness of the rule. they should just use it in the most literal sense to avoid confusion and regain consumer confidence in the format. how can anyone spend any real amount of money on this format given how its managed

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