Phelddagrif: Show Weakness to Hide Your Strength

Dunadain
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Post by Dunadain » 4 months ago

DirkGently wrote:
4 months ago
Words from existing vanity cards are grandfathered in and thus can be reprinted.
good point... I had always read that as CARDS from existing vanity cards, but your right, they could make a new Phelddagrif card if that wiki page is accurate.

But yeah, if Kenrith, the Returned King is the new status quo for "politics" then we are just flat out of luck.

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Post by Moonlighter » 4 months ago

A week ago, I managed to play a game with my newly crafted Phelddagrif deck. I played myself off as a lawyer, and gave people "legal advice," sent over an "aide" or two, or "prepare a brief" for them. It was pretty clear how it was working and I felt fairly in charge. Kenrith, the Returned King blew a counterspell on Kynaios and Tiro of Meletis's Propaganda, so I then turned him into a tree, which he stayed for the whole rest of the game. In informed him that I was sorry, but that this was best from the standpoint of his inheritance taxes. I spend a lot of the game discarding cards, because there simply were not that many threats on board. I let Seton, Krosan Protector get out of hand, because I was sitting on an instant-speed board wipe. The only problem with the deck is that no one was moving fast enough to win, and so I just kept the game to a even pace. We ended up calling it when I used a Cyclonic Rift to clear the board of K&T's 50 tokens and it was past time for us to stop. I look forward to giving it another shot when we are able to play with more streamlined decks.

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Post by DirkGently » 4 months ago

Having thought about it a bit more, I think Yavimaya, Cradle of Growth is actually kind of great for this deck. We don't usually need green fixing for our spells, BUT it means we can pump 100% of our mana into hippo tokens, which is arguably the most useful donation ability. And it also has good synergy with Out of Time, and with Ezuri's Predation, for those who are running it as a wincon.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
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Sefir
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Post by Sefir » 4 months ago

I might be a minority here, but I am not sure how good Out of Time actually is in the deck. It is simply FAR too efficient. Remember, it doesn't kill. It phases creatures out. Including commanders. Thus making the scenario where 3 people in the table instantly attack us to death to release their commanders from Out of Time a very possible one.
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Post by Moonlighter » 4 months ago

DirkGently wrote:
4 months ago
Having thought about it a bit more, I think Yavimaya, Cradle of Growth is actually kind of great for this deck. We don't usually need green fixing for our spells, BUT it means we can pump 100% of our mana into hippo tokens, which is arguably the most useful donation ability. And it also has good synergy with Out of Time, and with Ezuri's Predation, for those who are running it as a wincon.
I know I've mentioned it, but Riftstone Portal serves this role in my deck pretty easily. I found myself pitching cards (such as with Pulse of the Grid pretty regularly.

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Post by DirkGently » 4 months ago

Sefir wrote:
4 months ago
I might be a minority here, but I am not sure how good Out of Time actually is in the deck. It is simply FAR too efficient. Remember, it doesn't kill. It phases creatures out. Including commanders. Thus making the scenario where 3 people in the table instantly attack us to death to release their commanders from Out of Time a very possible one.
I agree that phasing out 3 commanders would be a pretty ostentatious move that would be likely to set us as the archenemy, but we do have some degree of control over how powerful it is. We can choose to avoid playing it when the less-offensive commanders are on board, and we can even tell people "hey, I'm going to play this card, maybe figure out a way to kill your commander." Or even kill their commander FOR them.

Alternately, we could point out that, sure, it sucks that your commander is gone, but freeing it wouldn't be worth it since it would unleash a far nastier board state for one of the other players, presumably. In a scenario where one person is playing a really scary deck that's going to keep demanding interaction or it'll immediately win, losing their commanders might be a sacrifice the other players are willing to accept.
Moonlighter wrote:
4 months ago
I know I've mentioned it, but Riftstone Portal serves this role in my deck pretty easily. I found myself pitching cards (such as with Pulse of the Grid pretty regularly.
That's an interesting point, though I'm a bit anxious about needing a discard outlet AND being susceptible to grave hate, which we generally aren't. Cradle just kinda does its thing.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
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Chromaticus
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Post by Chromaticus » 4 months ago

Anyone running Barrier Breach ? Just saw it come up in a video.

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Post by Dunadain » 4 months ago

Chromaticus wrote:
4 months ago
Anyone running Barrier Breach ? Just saw it come up in a video.
The cool thing about This deck is that all of the answers are flux spots, so you can throw whatever you want in to personalize the deck the way you want it.

Personally, I'm not a fan, hitting 3 targets is less relevant for us than for most decks, typically, when you need to remove an enchantment, there is only really one offender. I'd trade that efficiency for versatility any day, Forsake the Worldly might have a way less efficient rate, but if you really want both exile and the option to cycle, away, I'd pick Forsake the Worldly first.

Cycling doesn't seem all that great either, since you usually won't know if you need it or not, you might cycle it away then regret it a few turns later. Of course, you could cycle it if someone casts a must-answer threat to dig for answers.

If you really like the ability to destroy multiple things, I'd look at Heliod's Intervention, which is shaping up to be my favorite enchantment/artifact removal spell in the deck.

But again, Barrier Breach is probably a totally fine card, we run so many answers so it's fine to have a few more narrow options.

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Post by TheAmericanSpirit » 3 months ago

Alright Dirk, I decided to take the hippo for a spin myself. So far, I've been really impressed by how well I can trace back my misplays and meaningfully improve my control game in post-game reflection. I really can't wait to see how it does against the field of my flgs, which reopens its gameroom in July! Anyway, here's what I'm trying:
Decklist

General


Approximate Total Cost:

changelog
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-mana confluence
-city of brass
+intuition
+negate

7/2/21
-kenrith's transformation
-devastating mastery
-wooded foothills
+comeuppance
+song of the dryads
+verdant catacombs

7/12/21
-tranquil thicket
-lonely sandbar
-secluded steppe
-thespian's stage
-arch of orazca
-detection tower
-exotic orchard
+arctic treeline
+glacial floodplain
+rimewood falls
+marsh flats
+wooded foothills
+arid mesa
+scattered groves

The utility lands weren't doing enough often enough. Cut them to increase the fetchability of my manabase AND ADD THE SCATTERED GROVES I FINALLY FOUND, BABY. YEAH! Took long enough.


7/14/21
-flooded grove
-mystic gate
-wooded bastion
+Ghost Quarter
+thespian's stage
+Wrath of God

Minor changes. Added 2 utility lands back and a wrath at the expense of the filter lands, which are occasionally awkward.

7/21/21
-Seaside Citadel
-Wrath of God
-Negate
+Arcane Lighthouse
+Reality Shift
+Sylvan Library

It was feeling a little Wrath heavy and draw light at times, so in go the Library and the shift. The negate → library shift seems sketch in some groups, but the average power level of my flgs is >7 so I wager it won't get a blink most of the time (or at least no more than anybody else's Library). Negate just sucks sometimes and if I'm going to play counterspells that sometimes suck, I'll stick to the ones that make Geese. (Side note: I really enjoy the subtheme of a lot of our cards giving out incidental tokens. The flavor feels right somehow.) Lighthouse is just a cool new pickup who enters at the expense of Seaside Citadel, who is currently the worst land.

7/25/21
-Sylvan Library
-Austere Command
+ Mirri's Guile
+Devastating Mastery

I love ol' A.C. but killing planeswalkers matters these days. More than one superfriends deck at the shop and 4 < 6. The double bounce is whatever, I'll use it as a bribe. But wow, was I wrong about library. Casual decks fear it, competitive ones will attack you to reduce its capacity to draw cards. All around bad news. I switched it for guile, which has less name recognition, achieves an awesome filtration system in tandem with fetches, and does not provide a logical incentive to direct aggression towards the hippo savior.

Tbh, I've been tinkering with the idea of adding enlightened tutor because (my version of) the deck has Telepathy, Out of Time, Search for Azcanta // Azcanta, the Sunken Ruin, Exploration, Mirri's Guile, Song of the Dryads, and soon Immovable Rod. 7 targets isn't bad, with effects ranging from boardwipe to spot removal to value. I think if I end up going this way, Kenrith's transformation will probably return just to up the package count. The only real apprehension I feel is about enlightened tutor's redundancy with Wargate, which basically does E Tutor's job but broader and better.

7/26/21
-Nimble Obstructionist
-Return to Nature
-Inspiring Refrain
-Glacial Floodplain
-thespian's stage
+Mana Drain
+Nature's Claim
+Stifle
+Tundra
+Arch of Orazca

Did some A+ trading today and picked up a few goodies, including a tundra(!). Refrain is good but it isn't mana drain good and I don't want to overdo the value end of the deck anyway. Return to nature's grave hate is nice, but I have a lot of overlapping coverage for the typical graveyard antics. I figure I'll save a mana if I can. Obstructionist is the weird one. Its triggered ability is nearly uncounterable, but it also costs 3, which can be hard to hold up in the very early game when it often matters the most. Stifle is less bulletproof but significantly cheaper.

Other changes on my mind are switching Fated Retribution to WOG and Mystic Confluence for Misdirection to lower the cmc a bit.

Bonus edit:
-stubborn denial
+misdirection

So I recently cut Negate, and denial is worse than Force spike when the big PHD isn't out. Misdirection costs zero mana and can reflect mind twists. Also I got a sweet signed parente copy today, so %$#% it I am biased. Sue me.

7/27/21
-Arctic Treeline
-Rimewood Falls
+Forest
+Island

I had a revelation about the snow duals this morning - in a high grade manabase, they are only conditionally better than basics. I switched them for basics to make passage/vista slightly better.

7/28/21
-forest
-ghost quarter
-fated retribution
-reality shift
-bant charm
-snapcaster mage
+nexus of fate
+once and future
+immovable rod
+submerge
+yavimaya, cradle of growth
+strip mine

Did some more of the Lord's work while trading. The only change that worries me is Retribution → Nexus. 9 wipes down from 10 isn't statistically significant in a deck of 99, but I hesitate to tinker too much with the deck's weird biorhythm.

-Arch of Orazca
+plains

I have my reasons.

8/6/21
-Mirri's Guile
+Sensei's Divining Top

8/8/21
-Once and Future
-Immovable Rod
-Nexus of Fate
-Arcane Lighthouse
-Fabled Passage
+Bant Charm
+Reality Shift
+Fated Retribution
+Sea Gate Restoration
+Wasteland

Minor changes to improve feel.
Once and Future is out for being inconsistently adamant. Nexus is a cool anti-mill tech, but I hate drawing it outside of the 1v1 endgame stage. 7 is a lot of mana to explore. It might come back at some point, but I'm unenthused as it stands. Immovable rod has tested poorly against other removal and I'm pretty results-oriented, so I'm not sold on its what-if capabilities. Lighthouse is kinda useless 90% of the time and I can handle most voltron threats with wipes and fogs. If this changes, it's on a shortlist to reenter. Fabled passage is cool but seems unnecessary with the already ridiculous density of fetches. It stinks running out of stuff to fetch.

Reality shift, bant charm, and fated retribution are back as quality instants. Sea Gate Restoration is super low opportunity cost and is excellent late game. Wasteland comes in to support Strip Mine's land management.

I'd like to jam Inspiring Refrain and Wildest Dreams in here somewhere, but I'm not sure how or if I need to.

8/8/21 (continued)
-plains
-island
-sea gate restoration
-fated retribution
+glacial floodplain
+arctic treeline
+rimewood falls
+inspiring refrain

So after I cut the snow duals, my mana has been a little wonky in terms of fetching, specifically with my green fetchlands. Until I can complete my set of OG duals, I've added them back in. Retribution is again out because of two things: first, I don't always need a boardwipe when the board needs to be wiped. Everybody plays at least a few and mine become dead cards for a while if someone beats me to the punch. Furthermore, because I never achieve an intimidating or destructible boardstate, I can rest assured that when another player wraths, it's likely never with me in mind and thus their boardwipe works as free value for me against the dominant player.

Second, I wanted to play inspiring refrain again. The card is sweet, no further justification needed.
The only things I feel like I'm truly missing are Scattered Groves, which I cannot seem to find anywhere, Intuition which I'm looking to acquire in the coming months,and Force of Will, which never seems to be worth the $100 usd when I'm making big buys imo. What do you all think? Is this a decent starting point towards our strange purple savior?
Last edited by TheAmericanSpirit 2 months ago, edited 24 times in total.
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Post by TheGildedGoose » 3 months ago

I'm not the expert but the only two things that stick out to me are the high land count (I understand I'm the contrarian here, but Dirk's outdated budgetless list runs 41) and Snappy. Here, despite the stricter casting cost, Mission Briefing is the better card to play because Surveil 2 is stronger than a random 2/1 body. I don't think I'd play either, though.

Oh, and Yavimaya, Cradle of Growth for maximum hippo production. In my deck without duals and fetches I foresee it being a massive boost.

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Post by TheAmericanSpirit » 3 months ago

TheGildedGoose wrote:
3 months ago
I'm not the expert but the only two things that stick out to me are the high land count (I understand I'm the contrarian here, but Dirk's outdated budgetless list runs 41) and Snappy. Here, despite the stricter casting cost, Mission Briefing is the better card to play because Surveil 2 is stronger than a random 2/1 body. I don't think I'd play either, though.

Oh, and Yavimaya, Cradle of Growth for maximum hippo production. In my deck without duals and fetches I foresee it being a massive boost.
I'm gonna disagree pretty hard on the topic of lands; I sometimes have felt 45 wasn't enough (also it's only 44 really, Maze is more like a 0 mana permanent that eats a land drop). The deck seems to purr best when it's making all its land drops. Snapcaster on the other hand... yeah he's not great. But I have signed copy and nowhere else to play it right now. He'll probably come out for intuition or force eventually.

And Yavimaya is def the real deal, but my only copy is in my selvala deck at the moment. When I get another, I'm gonna slam dunk it into the list for sure.
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Post by DirkGently » 3 months ago

I think you'll probably want to lower the land count a bit once you get intuition. Tutoring intuition into loam package is a really common play pattern that guarantees lands basically forever, at which point the extra lands are just going to gunk up your draws. But I agree that hitting land drops consistently turn after turn is crucial, so without the reliability of intuition loam a few extra is probably reasonable. My budget version I think I went a bit higher (until I got another intuition and it stopped being budget).
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

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Post by TheAmericanSpirit » 3 months ago

So a local lgs had a copy of intuition and I happened to have a crap ton of store credit... so I got one! :D I'll update my list shortly!
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Post by TheAmericanSpirit » 3 months ago

So I got a great game in last night. 3 player against Adrix and Nev, Twincasters and Zabaz, the Glimmerwasp. Zabaz got a quick start and immediately aggro'ed me, so I armed adrix to the teeth with spirits from Forbidden Orchard and pointed them in the wasp's direction. Eventually Adrix's board got really nutty so I cleaned up with Hour of Revelation and brokered a tentative peace with the Wasp. From that first boardwipe onward, I was basically in the driver's seat except that I missed like 4 land drops after hitting my first five on curve. My hand got kinda gunked with removal I didn't need, so I had to play really conservatively for a bit until I hit intuition and put the land problem away. Eventually I started whacking Adrix with a flying Phelddagriff and got them to 17 cmdr damage before Zabaz used Thaumatic Compass // Spires of Orazca to maze a lethal hit in the hopes that Adrix could use her thrice-rebuilt army to alpha strike me. I used Alchemist's Refuge to flash out Supreme Verdict and killed Adrix the following turn after helping the spires find their Beast Within. Once it was 1v1, the wasp couldn't really make anything stick, and what could stick couldn't outpace Pulse of the Fields, and eventually they scooped it up to a Cyclonic Rift after I had put them to a smooth 12 cmdr damage with no signs of abating. Long game (3 hours), but well worth it.

The thing I like best is even if the game goes long, no one can point at me for slow play because my turns are all <20 seconds. "Draw, Land for turn, *quick scan of my hand and the board*, Pass."
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Post by DirkGently » 3 months ago

3 player is always a lot more annoying with Phelddagrif. People are a lot less likely to ignore you than in a 4-player in my experience. It's really hard to come away looking squeaky clean because each opponent only has one other opponent to take the heat off you. In 4p, even if they suspect you're a problem, with two other opponents one or both of them is probably doing something more obviously dangerous.
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Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

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TheAmericanSpirit
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Post by TheAmericanSpirit » 3 months ago

Oh, I forgot to mention: Inspiring Refrain was the stone cold nuts in the aforementioned 3 player game. I suspended it on t3 and drew like 10 cards off it over the course of the game. I was worried it wouldn't have the oomph of something like Sphinx's Revelation and I was thrilled to see otherwise. Definitely an excellent addition and still subtle enough to be totally ignored.
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Post by Dunadain » 3 months ago

I know we like to wait until the full set is spoiled, but True Polymorph is the newest piece of commander neutralization tech, sometimes it will only turn the commander into a hippo, usually it will turn it into a mana rock, and sometimes, if your running them, you could turn the commander into one of those indestructible artifact lands. If Out of Time hadn't just been printed, I wouldn't hesitate to add this to my deck, even so, True Polymorph has some real advantages overOut of Time (the biggest simply being it's instant speed, and killing us won't give them back their commander) and I don't see any real reason why we can't use both. Thoughts?

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Post by TheAmericanSpirit » 3 months ago

@Dunadain

I dunno about it. We already play song of the dryads at 3, and for six we could play a bonified Time Stop and just counter entire turns instead. It also requires there to be multiple targets on the field, which can be easily countered by sac outlets, etc. I think if it cost 3-4, it would be a slam dunk, but 6 is a big premium for what it actually does. We'll see what @DirkGently thinks though.
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Post by Dunadain » 3 months ago

Maybe, but by the time we need to neutralize commanders, we should be sitting on a lot of mana.

At one point this forum was seriously discussing using Mistmeadow Witch and Stifle to permanently exile commanders. In comparison to that, True Polymorph looks like an absolute steal.

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Post by TheAmericanSpirit » 3 months ago

Dunadain wrote:
3 months ago
Maybe, but by the time we need to neutralize commanders, we should be sitting on a lot of mana.

At one point this forum was seriously discussing using Mistmeadow Witch and Stifle to permanently exile commanders. In comparison to that, True Polymorph looks like an absolute steal.
Compared to Song of the Dryads, Out of Time, or Kenrith's Transformation, both of those options are terrible imho. We can always just remove problems into oblivion anyway. Commander Tax at 8-10 is effectively neutralized anyway, so I don't see a reason to hold up 6 for pretty conditional removal with multiple points of failure.

Edit: I'll admit I'm not the authority here though. Please do try it out and get back to us, feedback is always valuable and there's a 1000 ways to skin the metaphorical cat.
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Post by DirkGently » 3 months ago

I suppose I'll weigh in.

So downside-wise, the cost is definitely steep (surprisingly steep tbh - seems like they could have costed it a lot lower) - how much that matters depends on what sort of situation you're in. If you sit down vs precon, precon, and cEDH Zur deck, then it probably matters a lot. If you sit down vs 3 75% decks then it's probably totally fine. The instant-speed does make up for a lot of the cost, ofc, since we can EOT it, besides doing in response to some sort of shenanigans or in retaliation or whatever.

Another downside I see is that it can't target planeswalkers like dryad or imprison can. Planeswalker commanders are kind of a pita for us since there's a lot less good pw removal. Also doesn't hit Esika, for example, or purphoros under most circumstances. Commanders being just about everything under the sun these days.

While the perma-exile plan was, well, permanent, this doesn't strike me as much more durable than the enchantment versions. If they have a sac outlet, or removal for whatever permanent type you turn it into, they can free it. Doesn't die to strip mine, which is nice, but overall I don't think it's a huge difference. Definitely nothing close to the perma-exile. I do like the fact that it can't be overwritten by killing us, but most of the time I use neutralization it's either against a deck that's all-in around their commander and it effectively takes them out of the game, or it's 1v1 and then they're trying to kill me anyway. But YMMV.

On the pro side of the fence, the instant speed is a big draw, potentially. I've talked enough about how valuable that is in general, but I think the question is whether neutralizing a commander as an instant is valuable enough to justify the downsides. I think ultimately it comes down to what sorts of games you tend to play, and how you tend to play them. In games where there's a pretty obviously a threat, it's probably easier to just lock them out before they spiral out of control. In games that are relatively balanced and you've got time to slowroll until someone starts to get scary, there's a lot of utility to being able to play reactively. Another thing this enables that isn't available to any of the other neutralizers is that some commanders simply don't hit the field until they're about to pull some ol' %$#%$#%, and then we're forced to use a counter/removal rather than a neutralizer, giving them a chance to try again later. Even something like Lightning Greaves can be pretty annoying for us since it makes it harder to use neutralization on the target without burning another removal spell first, if it's something that necessitates such a thing.

Another small bonus is that, as an instant, it can be tutored with Merchant Scroll. It can also be tutored and used immediately with Intuition.

To tAS's point, I don't think taxing out commanders is a reliable solution to all problems. Commanders that self-recur or are hard to interact with can pose a real problem for us, so I do think it's worth having at least 1-2 cards dedicated to circumventing the normal process of commander recasting.

Overall, I think it's a card with some significant upside, but I'm not sure I'd want to run it instead of dryads or out of time since it lacks the ability to shut down some of the more pernicious commanders (dryads hitting non-creatures, out of time hitting hexproof or multiple). I think it's a fine inclusion to have, but personally I find high-cmc spells are something I like to keep to a moderate level to avoid getting too clogged. Whether an additional neutralizing option is worth a slot depends on how often you want to lock down enemy commanders. I do think it's probably the best third-pick for neutralization.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

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Post by Hawk » 3 months ago

I await Dirk's thoughts, but here's my short list of stuff from this set:

Divine Smite - I will not be running this, but it's a consideration for budget players. Hits 15/25 of the current top 25 commanders, and phasing out can still be a great disruption piece against other creatures and 'walkers. Prooooobbbably better than Skywhaler's Shot?

Contact Other Plane - Mentioning only to say - don't. I feel like this is worse than Glimmer of Genius and Hieroglyphic Illumination 50% of the time and only equal to them the next 45% of the time, and those are already replacement-level reloads. When you do roll a nat 20, this may actually get enough attention to raise eyebrows. Just run the two aforementioned spells.

Split the Party - this is so close to amazing. If it was instant, I'd be running it already especially since we can goose the split and leave them with a horde of hippos. But at sorcery speed, this is just worse than any number of real boardwipes. So sad that we were a typeline away from an exciting new card :(.

Sudden Insight - should be better than Opportunity on average, but I don't run Opportunity. Again, this is a consideration for budget players.

True Polymorph - has been discussed. For the record, I'm not a fan. This is twice the cost of Song of the Dryads, Out of Time, and Imprisoned in the Moon and triple the cost of Darksteel Mutation. This can't be disrupted by enchantment removal, but it's also much harder to get great value out of. Turning a commander into a Hippo is a very temporary solution to a problem Commander, and turning them into a Arcane Signet is only marginally better. Six mana is just a bit much for me.

You Find the Villans' Lair - Is like the 15th best counterspell, so if you wanna go that deep it's worth considering. Me personally I'd never run it over Neutralize or Dismiss but again, budget options for folks who can't afford some of the expensive better spells.

Long Rest - I thought about it, as I run Wildest Dreams and this is generally the same efficiency at 1, 2, or 3 cards, and more efficiency at 4+ cards. Problem is - I rarely need Dreams for greater than X=3, and mustering Triple Green up front kinda sucks (and will until I get my hands on Yavimaya, Cradle of Growth). The lifegain at X=8+ is total overkill. This is a sidegrade to Wildest Dreams for players with incredible manabases.

You Happen On a Glade - Another "So close"; if this returned any card it'd be a real contender. Permanent only means it can bring back precious little.

Eye of Vecna - this might fly under the radar since we're not capable of summoning Vecna, and we don't mind paying life to get down for Pulse of the Fields. But ultimately I think it's unnecessary.

A dungeon package: Dungeon Descent, Dungeon Map, You Find a Cursed Idol? - If this wasn't all sorcery speed I'd consider it, but we've got so many great lands that can draw us cards printed or reprinted in the last 18 months that it's not necessary to go down this rabbit hole.
////////////////////
TL;DR: Divine Smite and True Polymorph are okayish but not staple level. Long Rest feels like a sidegrade that is worth checking out. Nothing else is all that great for our favorite hippo.

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Post by TheGildedGoose » 3 months ago

Hawk wrote:
3 months ago
we can goose the split
Image

I remain unimpressed with Phelddy's gains from this set.

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Post by DirkGently » 3 months ago

Now that we've got the whole set...

Diviner's Portent - decent value options for people doing a single-shot draw build, but not for my sensibilities personally.

Song of Inspiration - I would totally ignore this normally, except (1) it's instant speed and (2) it doesn't self-exile. Still probably not good enough, but it's definitely interesting. Too bad we probably can't trigger the lifegain very consistently.

Underdark Rift - ugh, %$#% the amount of "sorcery-speed-only" activation restrictions in this set. I guess it's still okay but we've got so many utility lands already, so I doubt this makes the cut. Maybe if it didn't self-exile so we could loam in or if it was instant speed, but with both nerfs it's a naw from me.

True Polymorph - I've said my peace about this. Interesting card but kind of a personal preference thing.

Dungeon Descent - holy sweet jesus they nerfed this card into the dirt and then kept digging. 4 mana activation? sorcery speed? tap a legend? Jeeeez.

So yeah, not much from this set, but I don't think that's a Phelddagrif thing so much as an everyone thing, as the power level is generally pretty low overall in this set and a lot of the mechanics are parasitic.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

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Post by DirkGently » 3 months ago

Whoops, didn't realize we were getting another day of spoilers. And we got a very interesting one: Immovable Rod. I'm glad to see wotc giving us lots of options for neutralization, since that was probably the weakest point of the deck.

So this probably deserves some significant analysis. Let's start with the plusses.

+ It removes all abilities and attacking/blocking, so it completely neutralizes the commander including derevi/yuriko, planeswalker commanders, artifact commanders...basically everything except the back half of Extus, Oriq Overlord // Awaken the Blood Avatar and Jadzi, Oracle of Arcavios // Journey to the Oracle.

+ It can be activated at instant speed, so it can block combos, neutralize commanders the turn they hit, or be used as an effective threat so long as they aren't already attacking you (and it still neutralizes evasion and whatnot so you can probably just block/bounce in that case too).

+ Holy crap, it even hits LANDS! You can ice that coffers or cradle no problem.

+ Not too bad of a total cost, and easy to empty from the hand early if hand space is an issue.

+ It's also a pretty reasonable but not-over-threatening value engine.

+ It doesn't die with the creature, i.e. if they find a way to sacrifice it.

+ it can switch targets, so you can use it to lock down a random value piece early and pivot to a problematic commander later, or release someone who is no long as much of a threat, etc. Sac effects aren't terribly effective either, except maybe with derevi and even then not amazing, since you just untap and do it again.

Not to many minuses, but a few spring to mind:

- Artifacts are generally easier to kill than enchantments.

- It can only lock down one thing at a time (as compared to out of time).

- The fact that you can retarget CAN be a bit of a political downside. If you're teaming up to kill the third player, then the person you're teaming with knows that you'll untap and target their commander (or whatever is most threatening) once the third player is dead. That gives them potentially significant reason not to want a 1v1 game against you. This could potentially be mitigated by promising to blow it up yourself, I suppose (or just not use it), and is a negotiable issue when moving from 4p to 3p since you can promise to target whoever isn't currently helping you finish off p4. Still, it's a bit of a shadow hanging over the game, potentially.

- For that matter, putting it on-board is a pretty big deterrent to someone planning to go off, which might cause them to hold back instead of walking into our answers. Given the option, I'd generally rather have opponents who go off half-cocked and hope to catch us unprepared than opponents who hold back until they're loaded with counter-control tools.

Overall I think this card is a slam dunk and an easy best-in-class replacing Song of the Dryads, unless there's something I've missed about it. Out of time is probably still worth using as a backup option, board wipe, and to circumvent hexproof without an anti-hexproof land.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

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