[Official] State of Historic Thread

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motleyslayer
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Post by motleyslayer » 3 years ago

played a bit of historic for the first time in a while today. I'm down to bronze due to not playing much but the format at least seems pretty healthy right now.

I'm probably gonna jam Gruul aggro for an event run by a podcast I listen to on the weekend

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Post by Guardman » 3 years ago

motleyslayer wrote:
3 years ago
played a bit of historic for the first time in a while today. I'm down to bronze due to not playing much but the format at least seems pretty healthy right now.

I'm probably gonna jam Gruul aggro for an event run by a podcast I listen to on the weekend
I would say be prepared for Elves and Aetherworks Marvel decks. They've made up at least 50% of the decks I've played since Kaladesh has released.

I understand why Aetherworks Marvel is so popular, new hotness and all, but I have no idea why Elves made such a big comeback (I am hoping it's just a sample size problem, or else, bleh, I hate playing against Elves).

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Post by motleyslayer » 3 years ago

I wonder if elves is because of that jumpstart card Allosaurus Shepherd . I'll be sure to keep elves and marvel in mind though, thanks for the heads up

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Post by Guardman » 3 years ago

motleyslayer wrote:
3 years ago
I wonder if elves is because of that jumpstart card Allosaurus Shepherd . I'll be sure to keep elves and marvel in mind though, thanks for the heads up
It did see a huge jump after Allosaurus Shepherd came to Arena, but then died down. But ever since Kaladesh it has been everywhere. For example, three of the six matches I played yesterday in Historic were Elves. Part of me wonders if Elves is just cyclical like Dredge in modern.

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Post by motleyslayer » 3 years ago

just played a bit more ladder, saw some awkward control decks. should I be worried about them on gruul aggro or not? Is there any cool tech I can use for them?

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Post by Guardman » 3 years ago

motleyslayer wrote:
3 years ago
just played a bit more ladder, saw some awkward control decks. should I be worried about them on gruul aggro or not? Is there any cool tech I can use for them?
By awkward control decks do you mean UW Teferi Control? They aren't the biggest threat if you play correctly, but I would still put a few sideboard slots for it (especially for cards that can be used against other decks).

First is to put some anti-lifegain cards in the sideboard (Rampaging Ferocidon, Tibalt, Rakish Instigator, or Roiling Vortex can work) which counters their Timely Reinforcements and Absorb while also providing some additional burn. This wasn't in gruul, but in my Mono-Red, but I actually had a UW player kill themselves because they played Shark Typhoon while I had a Rampaging Ferocidon. They had to keep casting spells which gave me free pings. It ended up doing six or seven damage to them without ever attacking.

The second is Heroic Intervention which prevents spot removal, Wrath of God, and Settle the Wreckage.

There is also a third way, if you are finding yourself always a few damage short before they go full control, and that is to include either a man-land in your sideboard (I suggest Crawling Barrens) or play one or two Ramunap Ruins maindeck.

Finally the best advice I can give is be aggressive and play around Absorb. Forcing them to tap out before you play your stuff is key.

If you are talking Grixis Bolas Control, my best advice is to be super aggressive. They have a greedy mana base and are prone to stumbling, but if they stabilize they are hard to beat. And it can also be a bit hard to play around the sweepers as I've seen both Extinction Event and Languish, plus the fact they play maindeck discard which makes holding back threats harder.

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Post by motleyslayer » 3 years ago

I saw a Grixis Bolas control and yeah, the mana is super awkward in that deck. I still gotta learn how to be super aggressive, I have little experience with aggro

I think I also saw jeskai control as well, but they didn't see much either game I beat them

Thanks for the help though

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Post by Guardman » 3 years ago

@motleyslayer: So how did you do in the event?

This is a little deck I've been having some fun with in the format. It isn't that tuned (Really needs Chandra, Torch of Defiance in the Sideboard and maybe another Embercleave) and is only made up of cards I've gotten from drafting (or already had in my collection), which is why the manabase isn't as streamlined as it could be. Fun deck though. Especially when you get to take an opponent from 16 to 0 in a single attack (even better because they took me from 16 to 1 in their last attack thanks to Embercleave). And it can get some silly reactions from players, like using Absorb on a Glass Casket when they have no creatures on their side of the board, just because they know me having an artifact on my side that they can't remove will probably lose them the game in the long run.



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Post by motleyslayer » 3 years ago

I really like that list. I have been kind of hoping that some kind of vehicles list would be playable after the release of Kaladesh Remastered on Arena. It seems like it was one of the first things people wanted to try (probably because of its power n standard) but it hasn't really taken off from what I've seen

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Post by Guardman » 3 years ago

@motleyslayer: Thanks for the compliment. If you have the cards for it, I would say try it out as it has an unique aggro playstyle that isn't found in any other aggro decks in the format. Overall, I think the deck does have potential, but needs one or two more pieces to be a tier 2+ deck. For example, I would really like to find a replacement for Servo Exhibition since it can be lackluster a decent amount of time. But it is sort of a glue card, adding an additional artifact source, while working well with Embercleave and Heroic Reinforcements. By that same token, I really want to add a copy or two of Castle Embereth, but that would require at the very least taking out Shatterskull Smashing // Shatterskull, the Hammer Pass and the Mountain, and making the manabase just a little more awkward because of it.

As for vehicles, I too was hoping to see one, but after playing around with some bad vehicle lists very briefly in historic, I'm not surprised they aren't to be found. First off vehicle decks are midrange, and Uro Piles (and to a lesser extent Rakdos Sacrifice) are just better than any other midrange option. Second is that a lot of vehicles power comes from their wrath protection. Extinction Event is the most popular wrath right now, and because of the way it works, it makes more sense to scatter out your converted mana costs. And even then, if Extinction Event is no longer the go-to wrath, as long as Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath and Kroxa, Titan of Death's Hunger are around the question then becomes why play a vehicle as a wrath proof threat when playing one of the titan's is probably better.

I think there is a chance for Heart of Kiran if Superfriends ever becomes popular again, but I think overall vehicles are just not positioned correct for the meta currently.

After this most recent tournament, even though Azorius Control and Goblins took first and second, I do wonder if Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath is long for historic. Uro-piles had six of the top eight spots, both versions had 57% win percentages, and that was with their popularity as one of the most played deck and with every other deck knowing it would be popular. The question then becomes if you only go after Uro, or do you also take something from Rakdos Sacrifice as well since it will be the default number one deck without Uro around to police it. My personal opinion is yes, and just ban Cauldron Familiar and nip it in the bud.

Final thoughts: I would be surprised if Azorius Control stays around as a top deck outside of tournaments. Not that it's bad, far from it. It is probably the best deck in Historic. But from watching the games, listening to commentary and from a few players that played it, it sounds like it is a difficult deck even for pros to play correctly.

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Post by motleyslayer » 3 years ago

has anyone tried around with any snow brews yet since kaldheim has been out? is snow looking o be as good in historic as other formats?

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Post by Guardman » 3 years ago

motleyslayer wrote:
3 years ago
has anyone tried around with any snow brews yet since kaldheim has been out? is snow looking o be as good in historic as other formats?
I haven't seen any deck running snow so far (outside of the usual deck randomly running snow lands just because). And unless I am missing something, I doubt there will be a snow deck as the payoffs just aren't there.

Speaking of Kaldheim, I spent some time brewing a cool deck around Mystic Reflection.



Haven't had the chance to try it as I am still debating if I want to spend the wild cards for it (plus I want to see if I can pick up more Mystic Reflection in draft). But I really like the idea of the deck. The dream start is probably:
But it can play a more fair game since it has a lot of synergistic and good stuff cards and doesn't need to straight rely on a combo to win. Still very much in a planning phase and would require testing (especially to see if the mana base is worth it to play Phylath, World Sculptor despite the potential power).

Arena Note: I only found this out by building the deck, but Kaheera, the Orphanguard and/or changeling is bugged where changelings don't count as the right creature type to be included in the deck with Kaheera as a companion.

The other card I am interested in from Kaldheim is Orvar, the All-Form. I feel like there has to be some value engine with him.

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Post by motleyslayer » 3 years ago

guess we're getting an Uro ban sometime soon, how will that affect the format? what decks will be good now? Will Sultai still be good?

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Post by Guardman » 3 years ago

Sultai was already dying due to a mix of decklists adapting to it (Both types of Sacrifice decks are running maindeck removal for Yasharn, Implacable Earth for example) and the decktype diversity increasing (I've seen stats showing the deck win rate was around 48%). The Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath ban will just be the nail that prevents it from rising up (until the next broken Simic card). Overall, I think it will have little affect on the format. Goblins will still be around with random Muxus, Goblin Grandee wins. Sacrifice decks will still be great. Auras will still be overplayed. And Rakdos Arcanist will still be the default historic deck.

In other news, with my Mono-Red Burn deck being poorly positioned right now, I moved back to Feather, the Redeemed (It seems like if Burn is bad, Feather is good and vise-versa). I upgraded it with Showdown of the Skalds (Which is absolutely amazing. It's as good, if not better than Escape to the Wilds) and Crush the Weak (Great card since it has foretell and exiles, but it can be a bit of a non-combo with Soul-Scar Mage), plus a single copy of Legion Angel (plus three in the sideboard, you know, because :)). I do want to try a Jeskai version with Orvar, the All-Form since I think it would be neat, but it is just hard due to the mana base and figuring out the cuts.

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Post by motleyslayer » 3 years ago

I kinda expected Uro and Omnath to be the only victims of the ban list in historic. Does this change the format much?

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Post by BOVINE » 3 years ago

:cry:
Last edited by BOVINE 2 years ago, edited 1 time in total.
B O V I N E

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Post by Guardman » 3 years ago

motleyslayer wrote:
3 years ago
I kinda expected Uro and Omnath to be the only victims of the ban list in historic. Does this change the format much?
After playing it for a little while I would say both yes and no. I still maintain that Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath decks were on the decline before the ban due to decks adapting to it. Though the more I think about it, I might have a bit more skewed perspective seeing as I play a lot more Bo1 than Bo3. Even still, I have no problem with the ban. Uro was format warping. And not in a good way.

As for the meta, I've noticed a increase in aggro decks and random decks in general. Which makes sense. Uro was the number one enemy of all aggro decks. But outside of Sultai no longer being a top deck, all the other top decks are the same as far as I can tell. I will say the aggro decks have gotten extremely aggressive where being on the play vs. the draw is extremely big right now. I've actually debated play more than four one mana kill spells just because killing their one or two drop while you have one mana on the draw is so important.

Also, this is neither here nor there, but it feels like I am seeing more and more Tibalt's Trickery decks in historic. I want to say the deck should feel inconsistent, but it feels like every game against them is turn two Trickery for the win. I don't know if it should be banned. But I have to think it is on some watch list.

Finally, I basically ported a deck full of standard cards (minus some lands and Syncopate) and have been doing pretty well with it.


The deck is pretty fun and crushes goblins. There is nothing like drawing a new hand of cards off of Aegar, the Freezing Flame and Crush the Weak. Or doing fun stuff like doing twelve damage out of nowhere thanks to Tectonic Giant and Calamity Bearer. Though the card that surprised me the most is Frostpyre Arcanist who is usually a four mana 2/5 with EtB draw a relevant instant or sorcery. And as always, my sideboard is a mess (which is probably why I play so much Bo1 :crazy: ).

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Post by Guardman » 3 years ago

Well the new Historical Anthologies has come out, but I haven't seen it make too much of an impact outside of some questionable Humans decks with Thraben Inspector and Death's Shadow decks (and the one guy I ran into playing a Spider Spawning deck). I'm most surprised to not see some sort of Hollow One/Flameblade Adept deck.

I am curious to hear if anyone has played around with the new cards and what your thoughts are (also if anyone has figured out a fun combo deck with Hamza, Guardian of Arashin yet).

As for me, I've slotted Thraben Inspector into my Mardu Artificer deck. It's been a great addition, allowing me to ditch Servo Exhibition and Bomat Courier, both of which underperformed, but had no good replacements until now.
The big get for me was the addition of Adorned Pouncer, which felt like the last piece to really make a cat tribal deck (other than a good one drop in the vein of Loam Lion or Wild Nacatl). Below is my rough list (as can be seen by the lack of a proper mana base and some one ofs), but in only a few days (playing a couple matches a day), it got me from Gold IV to Plat (in Bo1). Overall it has really impressed me so far. The only out and out bad match-up I've come across so-far is Angels (which is a bad match-up for every aggro deck). And even then, the match-up with Cats felt more winnable than with most other tribal and burn decks (plus I've actually won some games against Angels with Cats, unlike with burn).

The real power of the deck comes from the fact that that each creature on its own has a lot of utility, be it life gain, pump, artifact/enchantment destruction, indestructible, graveyard recursion, token generation, etc. It even gets a a decent utility land in Animal Sanctuary. But like I said, the deck does need refinement (questions like keep Kaheera, the Orphanguard as companion or go for a build that includes Toski, Bearer of Secrets / Cast Out vs. Skyclave Apparition and not playing Kaheera / etc.) Either way, I would recommend it for anyone looking for a new aggro-ish deck to try.



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Post by motleyslayer » 3 years ago

I'm really tempted to try some bad Death's Shadow decks, even if people don't know if it's good in the format yet. I feel it's missing too many parts that make it good in modern but I love the card too much

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Post by Guardman » 3 years ago

motleyslayer wrote:
3 years ago
I'm really tempted to try some bad Death's Shadow decks, even if people don't know if it's good in the format yet. I feel it's missing too many parts that make it good in modern but I love the card too much
Playing against Mono-Black, Rakdos, and Orzhov, it feels like it really misses Temur Battle Rage or some cheap way to push through extra damage. Maybe it needs to go more aggro and throw in Embercleave.

Also, unlike Modern, I feel the meta just isn't right for the deck. Most decks are more burst damage, rather than traditional damage. And by that I mean most of the decks are capable of doing 10+ damage in a single attack with limited set-up. Think Goblins with Muxus, Goblin Grandee, Angels with their giant flying three drop angels, Gruul with Embercleave, Elves with mass pump effects, etc. And that doesn't even include burn which is happy to sit back and watch the Death's Shadow deck burn themselves.

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Post by motleyslayer » 3 years ago

I feel that one common issue with shadow in historic is that it's missing Temur Battle Rage , which makes it hard to push through damage. I'm really tempted to try grixis as it gives access to The Royal Scions , which I even like in modern. I'll probably start with Scourge of the Skyclaves and sprite dragon as well. There's still plenty of good interaction. But maybe that might not be a great shell

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Post by Guardman » 3 years ago

In news that I find bigger than it probably is, the Mystical Archive cards (minus seven for power level concerns) will be legal in Historic. I also appreciate the fact that Mystical Archives will be in all packs including draft, but that is for a different forum.

https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/a ... ch-24-2021

The two cards so far confirm to be banned for power level is Swords to Plowshares and Demonic Tutor. And the other previewed card, Opt, is already Historic legal, but I have my hopes up that we will get some cool cards for Historic. What are your hopes. My number one is Lightning Bolt, but I already know if it is in the Archive (likely), it will be one of the banned cards (because that was what happened in Jumpstart).

Finally Nexus has a preview on March 30, which confirms Ancient Stirrings is in the Archive.

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Post by motleyslayer » 2 years ago

I played the CFB Pro Showdown today and a bit of ladder last night to prepare, which was my first time really playing much of the format in a few months. I must say I really enjoyed the matches I play. I think the only deck I played against twice was that mno white lifegain deck, which doesn't seem busted.

I played rogues today, event was single elimination. I beat a Jeskai deck around that Lorehold dragon and taking a bunch of turns. Lost to Izzet Phoeniz

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Post by Guardman » 2 years ago

I have to say I think the format has a turn 4 problem/being on the draw is way too big of a disadvantage problem. Far too many games are either won or effectively won by turn 4. And many of these decks are either able to do it through interaction or are attacking in such a way that if you aren't playing a counterspell or maindeck graveyard hate your only hope of winning is by hoping that you are fast enough (which if you are on the draw you won't be). This was always somewhat of a problem in the format even when there was the three headed beast of Food, Goblins, and Rakdos Arcanist, as Goblins could easily pull off a turn three or four win. While things like Burn, Gruul, and Elves, while being tier 2, could do it with strong draws, but not consistantly.

But since the Mystical Archives have been released, it has gotten a lot worse. Most of it has to come down to Faithless Looting, Brainstorm and Mizzix's Mastery now that Time Warp is banned. For example, I've often run into decks that are spending the first three turns dumping stuff into their graveyard, while on turn four they either Mizzix's Mastery into Emergent Ultimatum or Unburial Rites Scholar of the Lost Trove to do something that wins the game on the spot. This doesn't even include decks like Aetherworks Marvel and Arclight Phoenix which has gotten a lot stronger, faster, and consistent since Mystical Archives.

This isn't too bad around low gold and silver, but once I am in plat, it is infuriating how often I run into these decks (plus the odd Tibalt's Trickery who always hits something good on turn two).

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Post by Guardman » 2 years ago

In interesting news, it appears Pioneer Master sets are delayed indefinitely.
PAUSING WORK ON PIONEER MASTERS
Historic experienced rapid growth and change over the last year, and it developed into a unique and compelling format. We are excited to have Historic feel distinct, and we want to continue to build on that.

Unfortunately, our schedule doesn't have room to focus on growing that unique identity for Historic and fully supporting Pioneer. Some steps toward Pioneer will come as part of Historic's growth, but we have paused work toward the Pioneer Masters sets for the time being. We do not anticipate a Pioneer Masters release in the next year. We have a solid plan for those sets, but for now, we will be focusing on expanding Historic in other ways.
I don't have much thought on this other than I think it says more about Pioneer being in trouble as a format going forward than anything it says about Historic.

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