Rules headache

Pygyzy
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Post by Pygyzy » 2 years ago

Tried to come up with the most abstract card I could imagine and well...

Magic Rules Compendium Vol. I 4TT
World Enchantment - Aura
(T in a mana cost is payed by activating a non-intrisic T abilities. Those abilities have no effect.)
Enchant stack
Players may choose not to resolve spells they control. Their controller may have those spells remain unresolved on the stack for as long as Magic Rules Compendium Vol. I is on the battlefield.
When announcing spells and abilities, and as players pass priority between steps and phases, unresolved spells on the the stack are treated as though they don't exist.
Whenever a player chooses targets as part of casting a spell, that player may choose to have any number of unresolved spells on the stack become that spell, as long as all spells have a single target. (It's no longer that spell. It's every other unresolved spell with a single target.)

My earlier version remained on the stack as well enchanting the stack from the stack.

Since this an obvious rules nightmare my only question is, did I cover my bases enough with this template that it can pass off as "functional"?
Last edited by Pygyzy 2 years ago, edited 1 time in total.

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spacemonaut
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Post by spacemonaut » 2 years ago

Pygyzy wrote:
2 years ago
Magic Rules Compendium Vol. I 4TT
(...)
(T in a mana cost is payed by activating two non-intrisic T abilities. Those abilities have no effect.)
This reminder text doesn't make much sense. This is like saying " in a mana cost is paid by activating two abilities that cost ." Simply, it's not analogous to any other cost symbol.

I read as being like "As an additional cost to cast this spell, tap two permanents" before I read the reminder text. But you're better off saying that in ability text than converting a non-mana element to a mana cost. After all, you generally want to require people tap specific kinds of things: artifacts, creatures, etc. This is like a super-convoke, basically, one that also lets me just tap two lands (like an extra cost of ).
Pygyzy wrote:
2 years ago
World Enchantment - Aura
(...)
Enchant stack
You enchant the stack, but you don't ever reference "enchanted stack", so there's not much reason for this to be an aura. It would functionally not change at all from current if it was just a World Enchantment.



Your card appears to describe this process:

1. If I understand correctly, when I cast a spell, I can either have it resolve or ... not.
2. We ignore all unresolved spells.
3. I can change all the spells on the stack to copy my spell, as long as it targets something.

The rules at #3 are kind of arbitrary and I can render it nonfunctional as long as I cast a spell that doesn't have a single target: like a creature spell for example.

Rule #2 is an issue: I can't resolve any spells. You know how you said in #1 I can "choose not to resolve spells I control"? Well, if I don't choose that, and instead choose to let them resolve ... I still can't resolve them! It's an unresolved spell, and the card says those are treated to not exist.

It appears no spell gets to resolve until Compendium leaves the battlefield, but since we can't resolve spells, I can't cast a removal or another world enchantment. Unless I have an ability that can destroy enchantments already available, the game is now deadlocked.



What you're trying to do here is create a holding cell with spells we get to reference. I don't think it holds together. Instead, you can use an existing holding cell we've already got: exile!

Like, here's a version of this that uses exile and that I know works:

> Whenever a player casts a spell, they may exile it. If they do, they may have each other spell exiled with CARDNAME become a copy of it.
> When CARDNAME leaves the battlefield, each player may cast each card they own exiled with CARDNAME. Those cards remain copies as they're cast.



At the very least, use counters to identify which spells get ignored—but I'm not sure there's a reason to use the stack at all for the holding cell.

> CARDNAME 6
> World Enchantment
> Whenever a player casts a spell, they may put a delay counter on that spell. If they do, each other spell on the stack with a delay counter becomes a copy of that spell.
> Spells with delay counters on them can't resolve and don't exist for the purposes of priority and advancing steps and phases.
> : Exile CARDNAME. Any player may activate this. (Each spell on the stack begins resolving immediately after CARDNAME leaves the battlefield.)

Pygyzy
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Post by Pygyzy » 2 years ago

Interesting. You answered my question well. Thank you.

I made it enchant stack because originally it did reference "enchanted stack" however i could never get the wording right. I was trying to see what an "enchant stack" would look like and i dont think i quite accomplished that but there was an attempt ;)

Superconvoke as you called it doesnt make much sense but i liked the idea of using another tap ability as a payment. I think your interpretation makes more sense.

Your version is functional and basically does everything im going for. I think that just might work. Thanks that was really helpful.

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Post by spacemonaut » 2 years ago

I suspect the issue with enchant stack is ... there's only one stack.

Auras are good when there's multiple of something but you only want to affect one: creatures, graveyards, libraries, etc.

Nothing enchants battlefield because there is only one battlefield in a game. There's no functional difference from a normal enchantment even if you do reference enchant battlefield.

The exception is if you're making an aura for grand melee, which has more than one stack.

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Post by Pygyzy » 2 years ago

That makes sense. Sense is the goal.

Come to Sense XXX
Zone Enchantment - Stack Aura (Un-M)
(A zone card stays in that zone when cast. Play proceeds as normal.)
Enchant stack
As Come to Sense enters the stack, that stack gains X sense counters. (Any player may use sense counters.)
As you cast Come to Sense, create X additional stacks and X token copies of this spell. Each copy targets a different one of those stacks. (Any player may use any stack. Play proceeds as though they're one stack.)
X, Add or remove X sense counters from enchanted stack: Up to one target spell on enchanted stack with mana cost X becomes unresolved. Any player may pay X and X sense counters to end this effect. If they do, they gain control of that spell. Any player may activate this ability.

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spacemonaut
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Post by spacemonaut » 2 years ago

Why does Come to Sense need to stay in the stack? Auras enchant from the battlefield (that's the place where all the attachment rules function, they don't function elsewhere) and you can enchant anything from there, including the stack. Animate Library and Spellweaver Volute both enchant things outside the battlefield from the battlefield, for example.

Come to Sense doesn't appear to have a reason to create multiple stacks. The game rules also don't tell you what to do with multiple stacks—Grand Melee does, and it works in a way that's unique to the constraints of Grand Melee's limited range of influence and simultaneous turn-taking.

Spells don't "become unresolved", they just are unresolved—that's inherently part of being a spell. If it was resolved, it wouldn't be on the stack anymore and wouldn't be a spell. I don't really understand what purpose the last ability serves—it doesn't really do anything except make you pay a cost that changes nothing and later lets another player gain control of the spell.

If I were designing an enchant stack aura for Grand Melee, it might look like this:

Volcanic Epicenter 1RR
Enchantment — Aura
Enchant stack
If a spell on enchanted stack would deal damage, it deals that much damage plus 2 instead.


I feel like you're chasing down breaking the rules for their own sake, while overlooking that the game already gives you tools to do the exact thing you're doing anyway without the rule-breaking, and doesn't give you tools to do the rule-breaking. It leaves you working against the grain unnecessarily and creating trouble for yourself. Un-cards can and do still follow the rules to the extent the rules give them tools to accomplish the effect they're going for.

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Post by user_938036 » 2 years ago

Going abstract for the sake of abstractness usually leads you to convoluted wording of an ability that probably works just fine if you template it properly. To accomplish the wonkiness of having spells on the stack but the game proceeding as normal you can use the readily available tool of phasing.

TSA 0
World Enchantment
X: Target spell with mana value X phases out indefinitely. As long as it's phased out any player may pay X. If they do, it phases in, and they gain control of it. They may choose new targets."

Phasing out spells is cool but would require some rules ironing but it makes what you're trying to do fairly simple and straightforward.

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