Kamihara

Pygyzy
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Post by Pygyzy » 3 years ago

Another contest submission.

Kamihara
Legendary Land — Desert Wastes (R)
If Kamihara would enter the battlefield from your hand, if it doesn't have a dream counter on it, exile it until the beginning of your next upkeep instead.
Whenever one or more creatures attack you, exile Kamihara with a dream counter on it, and target attacking creature until the beginning of your next upkeep.
If Kamihara would enter the battlefield from exile, if it has a dream counter on it, put it into to its owner's hand instead.

Does this work? Is there another way to achieve the same ability without using counters? Not concerned about power level or anything just that it functions and if there's any way besides using the counters to get it to function similarly.

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Post by user_938036 » 3 years ago

Your first ability seems functional but it is also confusing as heck. As worded it is a replacement effect with a duration. That could work but doesn't currently exist. To accomplish what I think you want it should just be a normal ETB trigger. There doesn't seem to be a point for the "If it doesn't have a dream counter on it" portion of the first ability. It is entering form your hand it shouldn't be modified in any way.

The second ability functions just fine.

The last ability also functions just fine.

The only other problem is that I believe you have walked into a trap. You typed this card as a Waste. If that was just done for fun then it's fine but I think you may have fallen for the assumption that as a Waste is has "T: Add C". This isn't an ability intrinsic to the waste type like it is for the basic land types.

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Post by void_nothing » 3 years ago

Wastes is not a land type at all (do we have the :teach: emote?) You can see it right there on the typeline: "Basic Land" and nothing else.
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Important Facts: Colorless is not a color, Wastes is not a land type, Changeling is not a creature type

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Post by Pygyzy » 3 years ago

Ah ok. Yes I was unaware of that. Thanks for the help. That answers my question.

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Post by Feyd_Ruin » 3 years ago

Pygyzy wrote:
3 years ago
Is there another way to achieve the same ability without using counters?
It'll never have a dream counter on it when it "enters from your hand".
If it's entering from your hand, you played it from your hand and not exile, nor would a counter "follow" it across zones, etc.
As such, this works without the intervening "dream counter" if altogether.

Also, there's no real reason this shouldn't be a triggered ability instead of a replacement effect, to avoid the oddness of a durated replacement effect. ...Unless you did intend for it to tap for mana, and I don't think you can add that without it getting rather wordy anyways.
Whenever one or more creatures attack you, exile Kamihara with a dream counter on it, and target attacking creature until the beginning of your next upkeep.
If Kamihara would enter the battlefield from exile, if it has a dream counter on it, put it into to its owner's hand instead.
You can skip the counters here by combining the effects. I think it ends up more straightforward too, since you're not "Exile → Return → But then Instead of Return.."

Although I'm taking a small step away from your design, the combined text would also be a lot cleaner if you simply removed the creature from combat instead of exiling it. Assuming there's not a lore/etc reason it has to be exiled, removing it from combat is just as effective.

Kamihara
Legendary Land — Desert (R)
When Kamihara enters the battlefield, if you played it from your hand, exile it until the beginning of your next upkeep.
Whenever one or more creatures attack you, exile Kamihara. When you do, remove target attacking creature from combat and return Kamihara to its owners hand at the beginning of the next end step.
To the beaten, the broken, or the damned; the lost, and the wayward: wherever I may be, you will have a home.

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Post by Pygyzy » 3 years ago

Oh ya. I briefly considered an exile trigger. Funnily enough I was worried that would be too confusing lol

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Post by Pygyzy » 3 years ago

Ok what about this wording.

Kamihara
Legendary Land — Plains Desert (R)
Kamihara enters the battlefield tapped.
w, T: Entrance target creature until end of turn. Return Kamihara to it's owner's hand. (Entranced creatures can't attack or block and their activated abilities can't be activated.)

Does that work or do I need to write "Target creature has entranced"?

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Post by void_nothing » 3 years ago

Why would you have to write it that way? That makes it more complicated. It's perfectly fine as a keyword action.

Is there a reason you have the selfbounce as part of the ability and not the cost? Do you deliberately want it to be potentially multishot like Mangara of Corondor if you have an untapper?

Finally, entrance is just detain, except detain has a duration already embedded in it.
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Important Facts: Colorless is not a color, Wastes is not a land type, Changeling is not a creature type

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Post by Pygyzy » 3 years ago

I thought it worked as a keyword action but I couldn't remember for sure. And oh you're right it is detain.

I have the bounce because it seems strong also it's inspired by whatever that one zendikar land is that gains extra turns It basically a cheaper better Labyrinth of Skophos which is already strong so I needed someway to balance it.

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Post by void_nothing » 3 years ago

But - Magosi, the Waterveil returns itself to its owner's hand as a cost. Kamihara does so as part of its ability's effect. Those are functionally quite different.
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Important Facts: Colorless is not a color, Wastes is not a land type, Changeling is not a creature type

Pygyzy
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Post by Pygyzy » 3 years ago

Right. That's to keep you from getting multiple turns tho. I'm just trying to stop a creature haha.

But I overcompicated it anyways as usual. I wanted to try something different and it ended up being a lot of headache for little functionality change. It doesn't have the flavor I was going for but function is more important. I think it's a lot better now.

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Post by Pygyzy » 3 years ago

I'm not sure if this is exactly a rules question so forgive me but

Kamihara
Legendary Land — Plains Island (R)
Kamihara enters the battlefield tapped unless you control another legendary land.
1, T: Detain target creature.

Ignoring the second ability is this too close to strictly better than a basic? I don't want it to be an auto include like the last kamigawa legendary lands. Would making it two legendary lands line it up?

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Post by WizardMN » 3 years ago

I don't think that clause is too bad. It does, interestingly, give more use out of multiples of the same land without being broken. That is, you could have one, tap it, play another (which enters untapped), deal with the Legend Rule, and then tap the new one.

So, only needing one other Legendary Land seems fine to me and creates some interesting lines.

I would express caution for it being fetchable though. I think in the interest of balance, it might be better to either let it enter untapped conditionally, as you have done, and remove the basic land types. Or give it basic land types but always make it enter tapped.

In any case, I don't think it is so overpowered that it couldn't see print like this. Maybe the Detain ability should be at least 3 mana though?

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Post by Pygyzy » 3 years ago

Those are good points. I was worried about the land types. It's a tricky balance. I wanted it to be low cost like the original kamigawa lands Hall of the Bandit Lord but they have some design issues I wanted to fix. I think entering unconditional but weaker might be the way to go.

I'm trying to avoid it being "just a one-of that gives you a mild advantage"

Edit:

Kamihara
Legendary Land (R)
T: Add c
2, T: Detain target creature.

Edit2: Think I'll roll with this.
Kamihara
Legendary Land (R)
Kamihara enters the battlefield tapped unless you control another legendary land.
T: Add W or U.
Wu, T: Detain target creature.

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