Block in the dark

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Ryder
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Post by Ryder » 3 years ago

Would the following ability work?

Whenever CARDNAME attacks, turn up to three attacking creatures face down until the end of the next declare blockers step. Opponents can't track those cards while they're face-down. (Face-down permanents are 2/2 creatures.)

That last clause is intended to allow the player to shuffe the face-down attackers so the opponent can't know which one they're blocking.

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spacemonaut
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Post by spacemonaut » 3 years ago

You can't just say "opponents can't track those cards". Distinguishing the cards we're interacting with is so fundamental to the game that if we couldn't do that, things would break in bad ways.

A trivial example is considering what happens if you cast Bloodscent on one of those face-down creatures. In order to legally declare blockers, I have to be able to distinguish which card you cast Bloodscent on, but I'm not allowed to do that. Also, if I want to Doom Blade that creature before blockers are declared so that I'm not forced to block it, I can't do that either.

Another example is if I have Lens of Clarity and identify which one's a Blightsteel Colossus so that I can Doom Blade it while it's still face down. I have to be able to distinguish that one to target it: "The one that's a Blightsteel Colossus. This one. I'm pointing to it."

I think some more fundamental things might also break. For example my capacity to say "I block two of them" requires being able to distinguish face-down cards from each other. After all, if I say "my soldier blocks that attacker, and my warrior blocks that other attacker", how can I prove I didn't just choose the same creature twice if I'm not allowed to distinguish which cards are which?



You're probably looking for something more like Jeskai Infiltrator. A rough draft:

Whenever CARDNAME attacks, turn up to three attacking creatures face down. Separate them into a pile and shuffle that pile. Turn them face up at the beginning of the next declare blockers step. (After blockers are declared. Face-down permanents are 2/2 creatures.)

or

Whenever CARDNAME attacks, exile up to three attacking nontoken creatures in a face-down pile. Shuffle that pile, then manifest those cards tapped and attacking. Turn them face up at the beginning of the next declare blockers step. (After blockers are declared. Face-down permanents are 2/2 creatures.)

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Post by user_938036 » 3 years ago

You are going to have to go with the exile version. Otherwise, the game and the rules need you to be able to distinguish which is which even if you turn them face down and shuffle them.

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Ryder
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Post by Ryder » 3 years ago

Yes, I was trying to combat rule 707.6:
707.6 If you control multiple face-down spells or face-down permanents, you must ensure at all times that your face-down spells and permanents can be easily differentiated from each other. This includes, but is not limited to, knowing what ability or rules caused the permanents to be face down, the order spells were cast, the order that face-down permanents entered the battlefield, which creature(s) attacked last turn, and any other differences between face-down spells or permanents. Common methods for distinguishing between face-down objects include using counters or dice to mark the different objects, or clearly placing those objects in order on the table.
My problem is, I specifically wanted to avoid the manifest keyword (as it'd require lots of additional reminder text).

Jeskai Infiltrator's wording is indeed the best fit. Current version:

Whenever CARDNAME attacks, exile up to three attacking creatures in a face-down pile, shuffle that pile, then put those cards onto the battlefield face-down, tapped and attacking. Turn those cards face up at the end of the next declare blockers step. (Face-down permanents are 2/2 creatures.)

Still wordy, but is it good now?

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Post by WizardMN » 3 years ago

You can't really do things at the "end" of a step (or phase). You can just word it as "Turn those cards face up at the beginning of the next Declare Blockers Step". Since the turn based action of declaring blockers happens before triggers go onto the stack, they won't know what they are blocking still.

This does allow them to respond after blocking but before damage but there isn't a good way to get around that if you still want them face up for damage.

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Post by spacemonaut » 3 years ago

Mostly good! The issue is that "[Do the thing] at [event/condition]" is a delayed triggered ability. An effect that's triggered by the declare blockers step ending only goes on the stack after combat damage is dealt.

I think you might need to use a one-shot effect with a duration instead, meaning we're using "until":

Whenever CARDNAME attacks, exile up to three attacking creatures in a face-down pile, shuffle that pile, then put those cards onto the battlefield tapped and attacking. They're face-down until the end of the next declare blockers step.

The question is whether you want them face-up during the declare blockers set but before combat damage is dealt, to give opponents a chance to answer the attacker/blocker matchups that now exist and to answer whatever's unblocked.

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Post by Ryder » 3 years ago

Nice improvement with omitting the second face-down during etb!
And right again, it has to be worded using "beginning of the next declare blockers step". Unfortunately it makes the effect less intuitive....

Obviously the whole point is to turn them back up before damage :)

As for the delayed trigger: The creatures would have to be "turned face down until [...]". As is, they enter the battlefield face-down and there is no clean way of slipping in a delayed trigger imo.

Whenever CARDNAME attacks, exile up to three attacking creatures in a face-down pile, shuffle that pile, then put those cards onto the battlefield tapped and attacking. Turn those cards face up at the beginning of the next declare blockers step. (Face-down permanents are 2/2 creatures.)

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Post by spacemonaut » 3 years ago

Just needs "face down" added to "put those cards onto the battlefield face down, tapped, and attacking." Otherwise they'd default to entering face-up, even if they were face down in a previous zone. Otherwise looks good to me.

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