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bravelion83
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Post by bravelion83 » 3 years ago

@Venedrex My comments that I wrote as I read your judgment.
My comments
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Appeal ... 1/3 (0.5 for each)
0.5 for each psychographic? Yes, I can see it but it makes 1.5, not 1. If it's 0.5 for each of only two of the psychographics, I'd probably specify which two.
Elegance ... It's a Legendary Orc ... I don't get it.
I think this belongs in Flavor, not Elegance. Elegance is more about the card from a holistic point of view.
Elegance ... 1/3 (0.5 for Glitterblade + Treasure being a connection, 0.5 for good generic orc name, 0.5 for double strike and the name blade going together.)
This also makes 1.5, not 1. Anyway, it's not wrong, but you're not required to list all the specific reasons when you give the points. What you said for the specific point of the rubric (pun unintended) should be enough. But don't misunderstand me, I love the detailed explanations you give so far. I hope it continues. Let's go on.
Development ... they are almost always god creatures
It's just a detail, but subtypes should be always capitalized. As I always say to all judges on my months, let's not make the same mistakes we're supposed to punish (in Quality in this case).
Viability ... incredibly powerful keywords
Power level is more of a Balance issue. Also, they look like ordinary keywords to me. "Incredibly powerful" almost looks like marketing speech to create hype during preview season to me. They're powerful if the card they are on is, not inherently by themselves. Only my thoughts, of course. Mana cost counts a lot here, but for Balance, not Viability.
Wotc usually never puts double strike, indestructible, and haste together (if ever) because such creatures would be overpowered and tacky. Even just two of these three keywords on creature might be unacceptable for power reasons, even if they are dependent on the player possessing a Treasure.
All this belongs in Balance, not Viability, but again, I love the details.

Nothing to say about Balance, it's good to me. A full zero might be a little too harsh but I can't say you don't justify it. The only thing I can say is that I like to specifically mention how the card does in different formats (limited, Standard, Modern, multiplayer, etc...), but it's not mandatory, and every judge has their own way to look at things.

Uniqueness is good too to me.

Flavor too, but as I said before, things you say in Elegance belong here. I'd also mention the lack of flavor text and I'd check in MSE to see if there is room for it or not. If there is room, the absence of flavor text is a problem here. If there is no room, it's not a problem instead.
Quality - No big issues, just a little wordy in a couple places.
Wordiness belongs in Elegance, not here unless it's microtext. Again, always check cards you judge in MSE. I consider the limit for small font ten lines plus two breaks (Animate Dead|Eternal Masters in EMA).
There is one Quality mistake you didn't notice. I'd like you to guess what it is rather than telling you explicitly here. Hint: it's a very common mistake that you see often in custom cards, but that doesn't make it less of a mistake. It's right before your eyes, and I've kinda already hinted at it before right here in these comments. What is it?
Total: 10/25
I count 10.5 if you give 1/3 in Appeal and Elegance, or 11.5 if you give 1.5/3 in both of those. Always double check the math if you do it yourself, or let Excel or your favorite spreadsheet program do it for you (like I usually do). Anyway, it's a really low score.

Overall, I love the detail here, even if there are a few comments in wrong places. If it depended on me, I'd probably accept your sample judgment provided that you pay attention to writing the right things in the right points for real judgments. I'd also really like for you to at least find the one Quality mistake you missed. If you have any questions, you know where to find me. If you need an in-depth explanation of the rubric or any other aspect of the contest, check the guidelines. I wrote the document and void_nothing approved it as moderator. Link in my signature.
Last edited by bravelion83 3 years ago, edited 4 times in total.
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Post by void_nothing » 3 years ago

There are three issues with the judgment that stand out to me.

1) There are point gradations for a reason. 0 in flavor is really meant for cards that aren't merely dull - that would merit probably a 1 - they're flavored wrongly. 0 balance is meant for cards that aren't merely overpowered - again that would probably be a 1 depending on the situation and formats you're talking about - they're Ancestral Recall or Time Walk-level broken. I can't remember the last time I saw a card receive 10 points. A contestant would rightly be cheesed off at such harsh point deductions.

2) You went ahead and put flavor judgments in both Elegance and Viability. The criteria listed after each of the categories mean exactly what they mean. Elegance is about how mechanically understandable, and how complex, a card is. Viability is about how well a card fits within the color pie, its own rarity, and the rules of the game.

3) You outright missed the one Quality issue I deliberately put in the card, as bravelion mentioned.
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Post by Venedrex » 3 years ago

Gotcha, do you want me to try again from the top or just try to retcon the original?
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Post by void_nothing » 3 years ago

Whatever you find easiest but I think you would be fine just editing. Most of the substance of it is fine. You should be pointing out the issues that exist with the card, which you do. It's just a matter of doing it in under the right categories and making deductions that are reasonable for the scale of them.
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Post by Venedrex » 3 years ago

Judgment v2
SPOILER
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Design

(X/3) Appeal - Do the different player psychographics (Timmy/Johnny/Spike) have a use for the card?

Timmy might like the sheer number of keywords that are on the card, but Txmmy doesn't probably like the fact that the creature isn't necessarily splashy in terms of a big awesome effect, and that the indestructible and haste, as well as the direct damage are dependent upon a way to create Treasure. However, the idea of machining gunning enemy creatures with Treasure is definitely something Txmmy would find enjoyable

Johnny/Jenny like the idea of enabling this guy with unique deckbuilding, but may be annoyed that the process of doing so isn't super complicated.
You don't really have to find an obscure synergy with this guy, just put Treasure makers in your deck.

Spike likes the idea of the keywords, possibly more so than Txmmy, as a powerful creature is a good way to win games. However, this card seems a little too situational for Spike in reality, as the indestructible and haste, while powerful, are realistically harder to trigger than one would think at first glance, due to the card itself not creating treasure.

1.5/3 (-0.5 for each)

(X/3) Elegance - Is the card easily understandable at a glance? Do all the flavor and mechanics combined as a whole make sense?

The card is a little wordy and hard to fully grasp at first glance. There is a lot of "and or" which can lead to confusion when players read the card. You can imagine two players going back and forth after one played this card: "Does it do XYZ?" "Yeah, oh and it also does that if you sacrifice a Treasure, not just if you control one." That takes away from the elegance of the card a bit.

2.5/3 (-0.5 for clunkiness in the text.)

Development

(X/3) Viability - How well does the card fit into the color wheel? Does it break or bend the rules of the game? Is it the appropriate rarity?

Double strike is perfectly fine on a red card, especially one with two pips. Haste is fine as well, and caring about Treasures is totally acceptable in red. Indestructible seems out of place on this card due to it being tertiary in red.

Another red flag is the combination of these three keywords on one creature. Wotc usually never puts double strike, indestructible, and haste together (if ever) because such creatures would too strong. Even just two of these three keywords on creature might be unacceptable for power reasons. Yet, it is balanced out by being dependent on the player possessing a Treasure.

The rarity of this card is fine, but a case could possibly be made to bump this up to Mythic.

2/3 (-1 for excessive keywords that are not usually found on one creature.)

(X/3) Balance - Does the card have a power level appropriate for contemporary constructed/limited environments without breaking them? Does it play well in casual and multiplayer formats? Does it create or fit into a deck/archetype? Does it create an oppressive environment?

To me, this card runs into balance issues because of the overabundance of keywords, ease of which those keywords can be triggered, and rng related to whether or not you can make Treasure to supercharge this card. Permanent indestructible on a double striker as long as you control a Treasure is a little bit unbalanced to me as it might make the card swingy. If you have a Treasure, your opponent needs a very specific form of removal to deal with the card, or it could cause a lot of damage. Alternatively, if you don't have a Treasure, this guy feels a little weak for a rare legendary creature.

The second part of the effect: "or when you sacrifice a Treasure," feels a little unnecessary because most players wouldn't generally sacrifice their last treasure, which somewhat invalidates the bonus being obtained through sacrificing a Treasure, because they will probably make sure to always have a Treasure so their creature can't die to most removal.

1/3 (-2 for possible play pattern issues and randomness.)

Creativity
(X/3) Uniqueness - Has a card like this ever been printed before? Does it use new mechanics, ideas, or design space? Does it combine old ideas in a new way? Overall, does it feel "fresh"?

Cards that care about Treasure have been made before. To me, the card has aspects that I haven't seen specifically, but the general idea of a red creature that grows stronger based on Treasure is nothing new. It doesn't feel particularly new or exciting to me, but it does do some new things.

2.5/3 (-0.5 for being in a similar mold to some other red cards.)

(X/3) Flavor - Does the name seem realistic for a card? Does the flavor text sound professional? Do all the flavor elements synch together to please Vorthos players?

The first part of the name seems fine, the second part not so much. Flavorfully, I think Vorthos players would be a little disappointed with this card. There just isn't much story to find in its flavor, and what does come through seems to be a detriment to the card, but it's not the end of the world.

2.5/3 (-0.5 for glitterblade being the name of an Orc.)

Polish
(X/3) Quality - Points deducted for incorrect spelling, grammar, and templating.

No big issues, just a little wordy in a couple places, and I think there the word strike should not be capitalized.

2.5 (-0.5 for wordiness not capitalizing the word strike.)

(X/2) Main Challenge (*) - Was the main challenge satisfied? Was it approached in a unique or interesting way? Does the card fit the intent of the challenge?

2

(X/2) Subchallenges - One point awarded per satisfied subchallenge condition.

2

Total: 18.5/25
*An entry with 0 points here is subject to disqualification.
Last edited by Venedrex 3 years ago, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by void_nothing » 3 years ago

Yup, that's more in line with a typical judgment. I think you understand it now - consider yourself approved. However, I still do want you to pick out the Quality mistake. You're right to give 2.5 for Quality, but you have to call out why. It's not a missing "if" because static bonuses use "as long as", not "if."
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Post by bravelion83 » 3 years ago

My comments, version 2 too :)
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Appeal ... just put treasure makers in your deck
Treasure should be capitalized as it's a subtype, and as I said before, subtypes always are.
(-0.5 for each)
Now, I do like the deduction method much better than the additive method from before. This is the way to go.
Viability ... Another red flag is the combination of these three keywords on one creature. Wotc usually never puts double strike, indestructible, and haste together (if ever) because such creatures would too strong. Even just two of these three keywords on creature might be unacceptable for power reasons. Yet, it is balanced out by being dependent on the player possessing a Treasure.
As I said before, this belongs in Balance, not here.
Balance ... this guy feels a little weak
I also like the tone of this much better than the words you used in the previous version (which I have opened in another window to compare them, that's how I noticed the difference).
Quality ... I think there is a missing if right before the you've.
It was not what I was referring to, but now you've made me curious, let me check that. *checks* No, it's not that. That's fine. You still haven't found it. Try again! :)

This time the sum is correct and the scores much better.

All the rest is good to me.
void_nothing posted while I was writing this.
void_nothing wrote:
3 years ago
I still do want you to pick out the Quality mistake. You're right to give 2.5 for Quality, but you have to call out why
I want it too! What's it? Don't look too far, it's right in front of you!
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Post by Venedrex » 3 years ago

Oh hang on a sec, is the quality mistake the fact that the word strike is capitalized?
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Post by bravelion83 » 3 years ago

Venedrex wrote:
3 years ago
Oh hang on a sec, is the quality mistake the fact that the word strike is capitalized?
Yeah, you've got it! That's it! Congratulations!
Me keeping telling you "it was in front of you" was an intended hint that it was at the beginning of the rules text of the card, right in the very first ability... you know, at the front of the text.
Last edited by bravelion83 3 years ago, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by void_nothing » 3 years ago

It is! Even when appearing first, the keywords are "First strike" and "Double strike" - the s in "strike" is never capitalized.
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Post by Venedrex » 3 years ago

Gotcha, that got me good lol.
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Post by void_nothing » 3 years ago

I promise that was the hard part. The real fun is designing the challenges! I can talk more about that over PM if you want some advice or have questions.
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Post by Venedrex » 3 years ago

Judge Signup for the March MCC is up! http://nxs.wf/np127499
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Post by Venedrex » 3 years ago

March MCC Round 1 is up! http://nxs.wf/np127735
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Post by bravelion83 » 3 years ago

Venedrex wrote:
3 years ago
March MCC Round 1 is up! http://nxs.wf/np127735
@Venedrex Judge question (relevant for at least one of the entries posted so far): a card that doesn't have the guild ability itself but that grants a guild ability to something else not including itself, is that good for the Main Challenge? My gut says no, but it's always better to ask.
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Post by Venedrex » 3 years ago

bravelion83 wrote:
3 years ago
Venedrex wrote:
3 years ago
March MCC Round 1 is up! http://nxs.wf/np127735
@Venedrex Judge question (relevant for at least one of the entries posted so far): a card that doesn't have the guild ability itself but that grants a guild ability to something else not including itself, is that good for the Main Challenge? My gut says no, but it's always better to ask.
Yeah, the intent was for people put the mechanic on the card itself.
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Post by Riria » 3 years ago

slimytrout wrote:
3 years ago
(1.5/2) Subchallenges — Only giving half credit for the new word – "Valkyrie" and "Pinnacle" both technically count but they're both name words. Would have given full credit to Angel or God, but those have both appeared already.
This is neither here nor there, but the unique word for the subchallenge I intended was "steps". So I should probably get 0 points rather than half credit (I forgot The Bloodsky Massacre exists haha).

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Post by bravelion83 » 3 years ago

I have just posted in the tracking thread, asking to host April. I have a plan and it only works now. Well not "only" actually, let's say it works best now. It could work in other months but right before a new set comes out is the best timing.
Author of the MCC Guidelines and FAQ. | For my projects, including Jeff Lionheart, my murder mystery story "One pierced heart, two mindful horns", and republished articles from my series "The Lion's Lair", see Leo's content index (Last updated on March 24th 2024 - Added OPHTMH Episode 4).
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Post by void_nothing » 3 years ago

Apologies for the delay in judging February round 3. I'll have it done tomorrow.
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Post by Lorn Asbord Schutta » 3 years ago

Well, the judges are subjective after all and they hold right to have their own opinion and futhermore it is not about assesment of my submission, but there are few things I would like to point out, and because the first round might close as well today, there will be little time for appeal.
Venedrex wrote:
3 years ago
Flatline
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(1/2) Subchallenges - Used bloodthirst so no extra point.
Flatline did not use bloodthirst, as bloodthirst is a keyword ability with absolutely different mechanical execution. By being an ability word and caring about having no cards in hand, I can only assume it was supposed to be a hellbent, but it get lost in editing. This is rather a quality problem.
Venedrex wrote:
3 years ago
marioguy3
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(1.5/3) Balance - I think this card is better than it may look on the surface. A two mana 2/2 with flying and haste that draws a card, and has the potential to be a late game finisher or mid game value play seems quite strong. I have concerns that in limited and standard this could be too powerful.
I am not sure if you have already taken this into consideration - if you did, then ignore this one - but the card draw is not one card per one drake token, but a card for each drake token at the moment of resolving the spell. It means, that at 4 mana, via replicating, you get two 2/2 fly-haste tokens and draw three cards. It is stronger then any other draw 3 at that cost.. Likewise, 2/2 fly-haste with cantrip for mana value 2 is pushed when compared to other options. Are you sure that this is just "quite strong"? Maybe 1,5 is the right spot for this, but I am not convinced.
Venedrex wrote:
3 years ago
Riria
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(2/3) Quality - "Incessant"
Insensate is a proper word and it fits in meaning with the whole flavour of Riria's submission, so I am not sure why the point is deducted here?

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Venedrex
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Post by Venedrex » 3 years ago

Lorn Asbord Schutta wrote:
3 years ago
Well, the judges are subjective after all and they hold right to have their own opinion and futhermore it is not about assesment of my submission, but there are few things I would like to point out, and because the first round might close as well today, there will be little time for appeal.
Venedrex wrote:
3 years ago
Flatline
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(1/2) Subchallenges - Used bloodthirst so no extra point.
Flatline did not use bloodthirst, as bloodthirst is a keyword ability with absolutely different mechanical execution. By being an ability word and caring about having no cards in hand, I can only assume it was supposed to be a hellbent, but it get lost in editing. This is rather a quality problem.
Venedrex wrote:
3 years ago
marioguy3
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(1.5/3) Balance - I think this card is better than it may look on the surface. A two mana 2/2 with flying and haste that draws a card, and has the potential to be a late game finisher or mid game value play seems quite strong. I have concerns that in limited and standard this could be too powerful.
I am not sure if you have already taken this into consideration - if you did, then ignore this one - but the card draw is not one card per one drake token, but a card for each drake token at the moment of resolving the spell. It means, that at 4 mana, via replicating, you get two 2/2 fly-haste tokens and draw three cards. It is stronger then any other draw 3 at that cost.. Likewise, 2/2 fly-haste with cantrip for mana value 2 is pushed when compared to other options. Are you sure that this is just "quite strong"? Maybe 1,5 is the right spot for this, but I am not convinced.
Venedrex wrote:
3 years ago
Riria
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(2/3) Quality - "Incessant"
Insensate is a proper word and it fits in meaning with the whole flavour of Riria's submission, so I am not sure why the point is deducted here?
Thanks for pointing that out, I'll amend the judgements to take this into account.
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Post by slimytrout » 3 years ago

@Venedrex I don't want to pile on, but I think you should re-check your math to make sure it's all tallied up properly. Just for example, I see that Riria's judgement has three deductions that are for half-point values, and yet the total is a whole number, which doesn't check out.

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Post by Venedrex » 3 years ago

slimytrout wrote:
3 years ago
@Venedrex I don't want to pile on, but I think you should re-check your math to make sure it's all tallied up properly. Just for example, I see that Riria's judgement has three deductions that are for half-point values, and yet the total is a whole number, which doesn't check out.
No problem, should be fixed now.
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Post by stille_nacht » 3 years ago

Bit of a framing question, in what context should we be thinking about viability when we make cards? Obviously the intention is to avoid obviously broken things, but different standard formats had different power levels. Is there a standard we typically think about? Should I call out which standard?

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Post by bravelion83 » 3 years ago

Viability is not about power level, that's Balance. Viability is about color pie, rarity, and rules. To get full points there you must be sure that your card is in the right color(s) and rarity and that it doesn't cause rules problem.
For Balance, no you shouldn't call out which specific Standard, that's additional content in the submission post that is not allowed. You can't write anything in your submission post except for the text card and the optional render. It's true that different Standard formats have different power level, but when in doubt always consider today's Standard, except in specific challenges like this one. In judging Balance, I've thought about both today's Standard and original Ravnica Standard.
If you have more questions, consider reading the guidelines document that I wrote and void_nothing approved as moderator. Link in my signature.
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