Splinter Twin vs. Modern gauntlet testing discussion

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Mikefon
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Post by Mikefon » 3 months ago

We should consider both in the test deck and in the opponent's deck some sideboard slots for twin itself.

Then I'd like to share my first draft of a temur build. I started from the last legal building and tinker it with new additions.

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Post by Wraithpk » 3 months ago

For sure, we're going to try to envision what decks might do if Twin was like 5 or 6% of the meta. So we don't want to warp current lists around Twin, but just make some small adjustments. For instance, with Burn we're playing 1 Exquisite Firecraft, which already sees some play, and 1 Rending Volley, which is less common now, but was played more in 2015.

Save your Temur list for me, we're going to get to that and also Grixis, but let's figure out what we want to do with Jeskai before we move on.
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Post by cfusionpm » 3 months ago

Wraithpk wrote:
3 months ago
For sure, we're going to try to envision what decks might do if Twin was like 5 or 6% of the meta. So we don't want to warp current lists around Twin, but just make some small adjustments. For instance, with Burn we're playing 1 Exquisite Firecraft, which already sees some play, and 1 Rending Volley, which is less common now, but was played more in 2015.

Save your Temur list for me, we're going to get to that and also Grixis, but let's figure out what we want to do with Jeskai before we move on.
In context of today's meta, it's kind of silly to think of what people used to consider "warping." Against Twin, the things that are good are like creature removal, discard spells, and counterspells. And then sometimes people had 1-2 slots in the side for like a Spellskite and a singleton Volley. Meanwhile, the State of the Format thread is talking about how Whirza needs GY hate, artifact hate, sweepers, targeted removal, needle effects, and exile-based answers, while simultaneously not losing to any one of them individually. It's really quite breathtaking of a contrast going back and forth between threads.
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Post by BloodyRabbit » 3 months ago

It doesn't even NEED adjustments. I mean, with the printing of Push, T3feri and lots of other maindeck cards which are played in the meta game that interact with the combo it just looks silly.

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Post by Tzoulis » 3 months ago

cfusionpm wrote:
3 months ago
Wraithpk wrote:
3 months ago
For sure, we're going to try to envision what decks might do if Twin was like 5 or 6% of the meta. So we don't want to warp current lists around Twin, but just make some small adjustments. For instance, with Burn we're playing 1 Exquisite Firecraft, which already sees some play, and 1 Rending Volley, which is less common now, but was played more in 2015.

Save your Temur list for me, we're going to get to that and also Grixis, but let's figure out what we want to do with Jeskai before we move on.
In context of today's meta, it's kind of silly to think of what people used to consider "warping." Against Twin, the things that are good are like creature removal, discard spells, and counterspells. And then sometimes people had 1-2 slots in the side for like a Spellskite and a singleton Volley. Meanwhile, the State of the Format thread is talking about how Whirza needs GY hate, artifact hate, sweepers, targeted removal, needle effects, and exile-based answers, while simultaneously not losing to any one of them individually. It's really quite breathtaking of a contrast going back and forth between threads.
That's a gross misrepresentation of what's being talked in the other thread. Listing what's effective is NOT the same as saying you MUST have all of the above to even have a chance.

If you want to be pedantic, why should decks have a such a restrictive removal (Rending Volley) solely for the purpose of combating Twin? Isn't that warping? If that' "warping" is acceptable what's your problem in having specific hate for Urza, where other than Deafening Silence, everything else has multiple applications.

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Post by Mikefon » 3 months ago

Playing a couple of rending volley and/or Fry is already enough for me. It's not warping, but is "respecting" a deck using a sideboard slot for more than one match up (Fry can be played against both Urza and UW). Just wanted to be sure to have a good sample deck and have a sort of rapresentative gauntlet.

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Post by cfusionpm » 3 months ago

Tzoulis wrote:
3 months ago
cfusionpm wrote:
3 months ago
Wraithpk wrote:
3 months ago
For sure, we're going to try to envision what decks might do if Twin was like 5 or 6% of the meta. So we don't want to warp current lists around Twin, but just make some small adjustments. For instance, with Burn we're playing 1 Exquisite Firecraft, which already sees some play, and 1 Rending Volley, which is less common now, but was played more in 2015.

Save your Temur list for me, we're going to get to that and also Grixis, but let's figure out what we want to do with Jeskai before we move on.
In context of today's meta, it's kind of silly to think of what people used to consider "warping." Against Twin, the things that are good are like creature removal, discard spells, and counterspells. And then sometimes people had 1-2 slots in the side for like a Spellskite and a singleton Volley. Meanwhile, the State of the Format thread is talking about how Whirza needs GY hate, artifact hate, sweepers, targeted removal, needle effects, and exile-based answers, while simultaneously not losing to any one of them individually. It's really quite breathtaking of a contrast going back and forth between threads.
That's a gross misrepresentation of what's being talked in the other thread. Listing what's effective is NOT the same as saying you MUST have all of the above to even have a chance.

If you want to be pedantic, why should decks have a such a restrictive removal (Rending Volley) solely for the purpose of combating Twin? Isn't that warping? If that' "warping" is acceptable what's your problem in having specific hate for Urza, where other than Deafening Silence, everything else has multiple applications.
I just think it's silly to complain about the "warping" of a deck that is easily interacted with using traditional, main deck tools like discard, counters and removal. But then also say that another deck, which requires multiple, narrow answers, that are all different, and none of which are that effective individually, just highlights how much mindsets have changed with regards to what is and is not OK for Modern.

Also Fry is considerably better since it hits a number of relevant targets. People who complained that rending volley was warping, we're probably playing Decks that chose not to interact on any meaningful axis, and we're hoping that to sideboard running volleys would be enough for that matchup. Abrupt Decay is also a card many have forgotten about.
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Post by Mikefon » 3 months ago

Now: does Corridor Monitor belong to the deck? I admit I didn't know of this card!

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Post by BloodyRabbit » 3 months ago

Mikefon wrote:
3 months ago
Now: does Corridor Monitor belong to the deck? I admit I didn't know of this card!
It doesn't speed up the combo (Twin on turn 4 regardless), so the flash + tap abilities are much more relevant.

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Post by Wraithpk » 3 months ago

Tzoulis wrote:
3 months ago
If you want to be pedantic, why should decks have a such a restrictive removal (Rending Volley) solely for the purpose of combating Twin? Isn't that warping? If that' "warping" is acceptable what's your problem in having specific hate for Urza, where other than Deafening Silence, everything else has multiple applications.
Rending Volley isn't that narrow of a card anymore. It kills Urza, Sai, Emry, SFM, Thing in the Ice, almost every creature in Humans and Spirits, Vizier, Soulherder, and Storm's dorks. So Burn running something like that or Fry because of Twin is not narrow or warping, because those cards hit a lot of the format. I had people in /r/lavaspike tell me they thought Burn players would start playing Fry anyway, because it's good against so much of the format.
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Post by Tzoulis » 3 months ago

Wraithpk wrote:
3 months ago
Tzoulis wrote:
3 months ago
If you want to be pedantic, why should decks have a such a restrictive removal (Rending Volley) solely for the purpose of combating Twin? Isn't that warping? If that' "warping" is acceptable what's your problem in having specific hate for Urza, where other than Deafening Silence, everything else has multiple applications.
Rending Volley isn't that narrow of a card anymore. It kills Urza, Sai, Emry, SFM, Thing in the Ice, almost every creature in Humans and Spirits, Vizier, Soulherder, and Storm's dorks. So Burn running something like that or Fry because of Twin is not narrow or warping, because those cards hit a lot of the format. I had people in /r/lavaspike tell me they thought Burn players would start playing Fry anyway, because it's good against so much of the format.
Operative word "now". "Everyone" was fine about that back then, but specific hate pieces now are frowned upon?

On topic, I'd use Into the Story in the grindy slot, either main or SB, I understand it's not a repeatable CA on a stick (Keranos or Jace) but keeping mana up always, plus Snapcaster should at least be considered.

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Post by Wraithpk » 3 months ago

Even back in 2015 you had Merfolk, Delver, Thalia, Electromancer, and Blighted Agent. Twin was the reason the card saw play, but it still had applications against several other decks. But I don't want to get into this kind of discussion here, let's keep this stuff in the State of Modern thread.

As for Into the Story, I could see it in a Grixis shell maybe. You probably already want Thought Scour in that deck to power out Tasigur, so maybe you want that and Drown in the Loch. I don't think you want it without Thought Scour, though.

But what's everyone's opinion on where SFM should be in a Jeskai build? Should the Twin and SFM package both be main, or should SFM be a sideboard plan for when the combo is bad?
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Post by BloodyRabbit » 3 months ago

But what's everyone's opinion on where SFM should be in a Jeskai build? Should the Twin and SFM package both be main, or should SFM be a sideboard plan for when the combo is bad?
I understand your point of wanting to show off what TwinBlade could do. Seriously.

IMHO, Stoneblade is just bad in this deck. And by 'bad', I mean unplayable.

In case, it's much better maindeck anyway. Like, take my last Jeskai list, cut the Mancers and the Helixes (going to 4 Bolts), put it 4 Stoneforge + Skull + Sword.

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Post by Wraithpk » 3 months ago

Like I said, you might be right, but we're going to have to prove that to people, because SFM and T3feri are the hot anti-Twin unban talking points now.
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Post by gkourou » 3 months ago

We are going to do the test, end of. It's just that I am an at a pretty rough position. I already explained that to @Wraithpk . Hopefully, we will start our testing at around 21/10.

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Post by Wraithpk » 3 months ago

Yep, there's no rush dude, take care of whatever you've got going on, we'll be here
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Post by BloodyRabbit » 3 months ago

By the way, in case assistance is needed for the play test, I may find a spot too.

What I can cover, as I played with profit in the recent past:


- Grixis/Esper Shadow
- Any Delver strategy
- Mardu Pyromancer
- Any Uxx Control
- Saheeli in all of its forms (Snow, Jeskai, Midrange)


If you'll ever need someone joining, let me know and I'll try to make space in my agenda.

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Post by ktkenshinx » 3 months ago

cfusionpm wrote:
3 months ago
In context of today's meta, it's kind of silly to think of what people used to consider "warping." Against Twin, the things that are good are like creature removal, discard spells, and counterspells. And then sometimes people had 1-2 slots in the side for like a Spellskite and a singleton Volley. Meanwhile, the State of the Format thread is talking about how Whirza needs GY hate, artifact hate, sweepers, targeted removal, needle effects, and exile-based answers, while simultaneously not losing to any one of them individually. It's really quite breathtaking of a contrast going back and forth between threads.
This thread is for discussing Twin lists and test results, not debating the validity of the ban or specific elements of the ban (e.g. whether something is "warping"). Take that to the State of Modern thread. OP edited to reflect this policy.
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Post by Wraithpk » 2 months ago

Hey, if anyone else wants to participate in the testing, let me know. Gkourou and I started playing matches, but we could use more people to get more data.
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Post by gkourou » 2 months ago

@BloodyRabbit , do you care to take part in this? Anyone else? The games were super enjoyable. The list felt perfectly smooth. Aside for the slightly tight manabase, it seems like it's 95% perfect, at least maindeck.

We need more people, more data though.

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Post by Tzoulis » 2 months ago

I can take up UWx control, Urza variants and UWx Stoneforge decks if you want.

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Post by gkourou » 2 months ago

That sounds great! Especially the Urza variants are super important! Let's wait for @BloodyRabbit and @Wraithpk to see how they respond to this.

@Tzoulis , what's your timezone?

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Post by Tzoulis » 2 months ago

gkourou wrote:
2 months ago
That sounds great! Especially the Urza variants are super important! Let's wait for BloodyRabbit and Wraithpk to see how they respond to this.

Tzoulis , what's your timezone?
Same as yours (iirc) Greece, UTC+2

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Post by Wraithpk » 2 months ago

@Tzoulis FYI, the way we're doing it is we're taking turns playing both sides of the matchups to account for any possible differences in the skills of the pilots in the testing. We also want to make sure we're noting possible biases with the testers experience with decks. For instance, we just played 3 matches today, but we both felt the Burn vs. Twin matchup was still close to even, maybe slightly Twin favored now, but Gkourou and I are both former Twin players, and not Burn players (although I play Red decks in Standard at times), so we have to acknowledge that the matchup is probably going to feel more towards Twin to us than it actually is, because we're both more skilled on Twin. We'll need to get more matches in to get a bigger data sample either way, but it's something to keep in mind.

Also, if you want to take an Urza deck and conceptualize how it might be slightly different if Twin existed, that would be really helpful. We don't want to warp current decklists, we're just trying to imagine if Twin was just a healthy part of the meta, like maybe 5%, how decks might make small changes by a couple cards to account for that, if needed. Like with Burn, we ended up not making many changes at all, we just added a Rending Volley to the side of a typical Burn list.
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Post by BloodyRabbit » 2 months ago

I had a 7-8 days window two weeks ago, unfortunately right now I don't have the time.

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