Splinter Twin vs. Modern gauntlet testing discussion

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Wraithpk
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Post by Wraithpk » 4 years ago

BTW, when I talked to BBD on twitter, he said he wanted to check out the final list we come up with, so he might have some advice for tweaks once we find a 75 we agree on.
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Post by Wraithpk » 4 years ago

[mention]TheAnnihilator[/mention], Have you had issues with the Field of Ruin and the Archmage's Charm together, or is it not a big deal with just 1 of each? We were trying to avoid playing them together.
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Post by BloodyRabbit » 4 years ago

There are some points which are kinda incorrect in the analysis.

-------

a) UR Twin played, usually, 23 lands + 4 Serum + 4 Remand. Stop. Remember that Kiki costs one mana more than Twin. 23 Lands + 3/4 Serum + 4 Opt + 4 Remand are fundamentally flawed, unless...

b) You play Jace TMS maindeck. IMHO this is wrong. In the sideboard can be a wise choice, but maindeck you want to play mostly at istant speed. Archmage's Charm grinds better in this kind of strategy (a la Blue Moon).

c) "cards like Kolaghan's Command, Grim Lavamancer, Electrolyze, and even a Searing Blaze". Isn't it what I said? "Outside of Burn" → the only real archetype that plays Lavamancer and Searing Blaze. Electrolyze isn't a card in the 2019 Modern. Kolaghan's Command is played in decks against whom we don't combo anyway for N reasons. You may play 4-2 if you prefer, but several successfull pro showed us how there is a HUGE argument for the 3-3 split (Todd Anderson, Dickmann...).

d) I utterly disagree about Magmatic Sinkhole. It's never dead unless you've got exactly both copies in the first hand (and even then, if you're grinding you can cast it reliably). It's the card Twin never had. What it needed to fight Goyfs and Delve creatures reliably.

e) I agree about the Fiery Islet argument. I copy/pasted the manabase of someone else, but I would probably ditch the third Steam Vents and the Islet.

g) Keranos was already bad before Twin got banned. Pia and Kiran Nalaar, as a hoser, was WAY better.

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Post by Wraithpk » 4 years ago

I'm with you on Jace being a sideboard card, but everyone seems to be split on this. Maybe we should take a poll?

Pestermite also dies to W6, LtLH, and Plague Engineer, can't attack into Narcomaebas or Lingering Souls. It's possible that a 3/3 split could be better, but I think the 4/2 split is the safest thing to test with.

I think we definitely want 2 Magmatic Sinkholes in the 75, and at least 1 main deck. What are you cutting from [mention]TheAnnihilator[/mention]'s list to make room for the second in the main?

I think the argument for sideboard fair finisher is between Keranos or Ral, Izzet Viceroy. My take is that Ral has the higher ceiling, but a much lower floor. Keranos is going to be more consistent, but he's not as good as Ral when Ral is at his best. If Ral gets to stick around, he's amazing, but if he comes down and just draws a card or kills a Goyf and then dies, that's not really strong enough. Keranos, on the other hand, will always provide value every turn, and as long as we're not immediately dying to Jund's aggro plan, he'll start to pull us ahead of them for sure.
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Post by Wraithpk » 4 years ago

Ok, here's some polls for some of the things we're disagreeing on:

22 or 23 lands?

Is Jace in the maindeck or sideboard?

Keranos or Ral?

Is Force of Negation maindeck or sideboard?

Anything else I should make a poll about?
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Post by BloodyRabbit » 4 years ago

I hope people like @BloodyRabbit , or @cfusionpm can accept the fact that there are Serum visions in the list at maindeck
Oh, wait. I like additional cantrips. It's just a matter of space, but it can be made. I've got nothing against 4 Opt + 2 Serum/Sleight. Expecially with 22 lands. I like them less if you go up with the manabase.

Keranos or Ral?
Pia and Kiran Nalaar and Seasoned Pyromancer are just better/more efficient at grinding AND flooding the board, IMHO.

I think we definitely want 2 Magmatic Sinkholes in the 75, and at least 1 main deck. What are you cutting from @TheAnnihilator's list to make room for the second in the main?
I would simply play my maindeck. And make space for one/two cantrips, if you prefer.

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Post by Wraithpk » 4 years ago

List A, but if it were up to me I'd switch the Jaces and the Forces, and play something else than P&K, maybe another Clique or a Seasoned Pyromancer. I can really go either way on numbers for the cantrips, too. I think we want a mix of both, and ideally we'd be playing 4 of both, but we just can't fit that. So what's the right mix? Difficult decision.
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Post by BloodyRabbit » 4 years ago

[mention]BloodyRabbit[/mention] , do you accept my list B as something you would want at a Twin list to playtest?
Yep. Regardless of personal choices, I would only state two things about that list:

a) You cannot afford BOTH basic Mountain and Loothouse in the same core while being heavy on Charms. One "colorless" land is the only thing you can walk away with.

b) It needs at least one more piece of early interaction. I like 4 Bolts, 2 Snare, 4 Remands and 1 Abrade. Your list plays 1 Snare and 0 Abrade. IMHO the second Snare is crucial, basically in the same way as UW Control jams 4 Paths and 2 Snare (then, our top ends are the combo and Sinkhole, theirs are Verdicts and walkers).


Basically, I would go for something like this (that's my take, I get that we cannot agree on everything):




----


On another topic, you're not convincing me about the "Pestermite dies to Wrenn". Again, we're talking about matchups where we-don't-go-for-the-combo. Outside of Burn (fast red decks, generally speaking) Pestermite is usually a better choice at pinging the opponent's life. Expecially if you play only a single Vendilion Clique.

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Post by BloodyRabbit » 4 years ago

The more I think about it, the more appealing Seasoned Pyromancer in the maindeck is. It ditches away dead Twin copies rotting in our hands, useless counterspells in the Humans matchup and creates a board against Liliana all in one. Probably, I would just go:

-2 Serum
-1 Vendilion
+1 Land
+2 Pyromancer

This would help the beatdown plan, and maybe I could see going for 4 Exarch.

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Post by Wraithpk » 4 years ago

Blue Moon has been playing 1 Mountain and 1 Loothouse with Charms. I think we can get away with 2 nonblue lands. I really don't like Spirebluff Canal, though, I don't want anything that could come in play tapped as my 4th land, that will absolutely lose games for you. I would also swap the 2 P&K in your list for 2 Jaces, I definitely think it's wrong to play 0 Jace in the 75.
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Post by BloodyRabbit » 4 years ago

about 1 mountain. Not that big of a deal. We have to be able to fetch it for Burn.
Not sure what are you talking about. There is one Mountain in the list. I said I dislike running BOTH Mountain and Loothouse.


Sorry, also, I disagree with 4 opt + 0 Serum, on 22 lands
Actually, in my last list you can find either 22 lands + 6 cantrips or a suggestion to run 23 + 4 to free one slot for Pyromancer. Look back.

really don't like Spirebluff Canal, though, I don't want anything that could come in play tapped as my 4th land, that will absolutely lose games for you
I honestly like the one of, but it could certainly be replaced by another land. There are spots in which is good and spots in which is bad

also agree about JTMS instead of P&K's.
You can choose your favorite cc4 hoser. I do think that, alongside other beaters, playing Pia and Kiran is more correct than Jace, The list already has tons of CA, between Charms, Cryptics, Snaps, Mancers.

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Post by idSurge » 4 years ago

BloodyRabbit wrote:
4 years ago
Basically, I would go for something like this (that's my take, I get that we cannot agree on everything):
I think this is close to what I would run Main with adjustments.

1. You convinced me (or someone did) to go 3/3 on Tappers.
2. I would not run Canal. The SINGLE game I would lose over months to it being the 4th land when I need to combo out, would never be acceptable to me. :p
3. I would probably adjust the sideboard, and just lean into the tempo game post board, hoping that the 'fear of twin' would enable it to work like it used to.

I think the sideboard is near perfect as well, other than the concern/differing opinion on how to approach winning in games 2/3.
UR Control UR

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Post by Wraithpk » 4 years ago

Ok, so how does everyone feel about this:

We're probably not going to all agree 100%, but I want to get something we're all mostly happy with that I can shoot to BBD to get his input.
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Post by Wraithpk » 4 years ago

So +1 Charm, -1 SV?
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Post by TheAnnihilator » 4 years ago

I must say I'm not a fan of Charm. I would rather play 2 Charms (or 1, but that's porbably a losing battle). I do like the sound of Seasoned Pyromancer in the side, sortof like a better P&K. Not main tho. As for JtMS, I honestly don't care where it's played -- main and side make no real difference to me, I could see an argument for either. I also think that 23 lands is crucial and it would be a mistake to shave lands for cantrips -- cantripping into lands is SO much worse than digging for relevant interaction or combo pieces. let your cantrips set up your gameplay instead of setting up your land drops.

Also, I think that you can't afford the Field with multiple Charms main, but I also think it's worth a little greed to play both basic Mountain and Loothouse. Finally, I think you want 2 Snares. 4 Opt and 2-3 Serum seems fine.

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Post by Wraithpk » 4 years ago

[mention]TheAnnihilator[/mention] What would you want to put in for the 3rd Charm? The 23rd land?

As for Seasoned Pyromancer, I think we only have 3 or 4 sideboard slots for the fair matchups. 2 of those are Jace, 1 is either Keranos or Ral. I've seen a lot of you guys skipping sweepers, and I think we need an Anger for that last slot.
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Post by Cow31337Killer » 4 years ago

I'm confused. Do people think Splinter Twin is getting unbanned?

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Post by TheAnnihilator » 4 years ago

[quote=Cow31337Killer post_id=37087 time=1570161176 user_id=1104]
I'm confused. Do people think [card]Splinter Twin[/card] is getting unbanned?[/quote]

Yes, eventually, but it's unrelated to this post.

This post is to come up with an "updated" Twin list to run against a gauntlet of current modern meta decks to see how it fares in this environment and ultimately support or refute the idea that Twin should remain banned.
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Post by TheAnnihilator » 4 years ago

Wraithpk wrote:
4 years ago
TheAnnihilator What would you want to put in for the 3rd Charm? The 23rd land?

As for Seasoned Pyromancer, I think we only have 3 or 4 sideboard slots for the fair matchups. 2 of those are Jace, 1 is either Keranos or Ral. I've seen a lot of you guys skipping sweepers, and I think we need an Anger for that last slot.
Yeah, 23rd land would work. If the list is already on 23 lands, I think the 3rd Serum is still better than the 3rd Charm.

I agree on the Spyros, not enough slots to play them, sadly.

As for sweepers, I think it's pretty tempting to run.no less than 2 Angers in the board. It's just so good at crushing Dredge and GWx. However, those are the only decks it really shines against

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Post by Wraithpk » 4 years ago

Cow31337Killer wrote:
4 years ago
I'm confused. Do people think Splinter Twin is getting unbanned?
Not within the next year, no, because WotC doesn't do unbannings more often than once a year, but the purpose of this is to test Twin in the current meta and see where it is from a power standpoint. A lot of people have a lot of opinions about how good Twin would be now, and we're hoping to find some objective data on that subject.
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Post by TheAnnihilator » 4 years ago

Oh, I just realized everyone's been forgetting Spellskite! It was very key in mu's vs. Burn, Jund (mainly for protecting Moon), the mirror, decks that rely on Path for exarch, and modular triggers. Should we be including it?

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Post by cfusionpm » 4 years ago

TheAnnihilator wrote:
4 years ago
Oh, I just realized everyone's been forgetting Spellskite! It was very key in mu's vs. Burn, Jund (mainly for protecting Moon), the mirror, decks that rely on Path for exarch, and modular triggers. Should we be including it?
I picked up my Judge foils just in case...!

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Post by Wraithpk » 4 years ago

Damn, you're right, I forgot about that card...
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Post by BloodyRabbit » 4 years ago

23 lands and 7 cantrips is overkill. Too much air in the deck.

Spellskite is a horrible maindeck card, and I would NEVER side it against Jund.

23 lands, 7 cantrips would be okay in a Kiki-Jace shell. There's definitely no need for such amount of mana, here.

Spellskite dies to Kommand (metà game full of it) and does literally nothing in the matchup. There's no way in hell we are comboing against Jund, and while it may be decent vs Wrenn it's obnoxious against Lily. Moon is actually quite bad vs them anyway.

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Post by The Fluff » 4 years ago

Cow31337Killer wrote:
4 years ago
I'm confused. Do people think Splinter Twin is getting unbanned?
not really. There was a discussion that started at State of Modern thread about how Twin would do against the current decks. This thread was created, with the permission of a mod.. so that the discussions about "testing of Twin vs current decks" don't get mixed up with other things there.
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