Splinter Twin vs. Modern gauntlet testing discussion

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Wraithpk
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Post by Wraithpk » 4 years ago

Note: This thread is for discussing Twin decklists and testing results, not debating the validity of the ban or an unban.
-ktkenshinx
Ok, moving the discussion here. So far, we're at this for the manabase:
That feels pretty good to me, and it's about what the Blue Moon players are doing these days. Unfortunately, I don't think Twin can play Mystic Sanctuary because of the risk of it coming in tapped as the 4th land.

For the spell list, I think we should start by looking at Blue Moon lists. Here's a build from thepensword on MTGO:
We have to cut 11 cards from this, or 10 if we go down a land, which might be doable if we're running more cantrips. I also think I want a Clique, it's so good against control and just as a beater for the fair plan. Here's what I came up with:
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What does everyone think of this 60 for the maindeck?
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Post by cfusionpm » 4 years ago

Some preliminary thoughts:

Is there a reason to run Force of Negation main deck? Without the benefit of finding, protecting, or threatening the combo (which should be the priority game 1), it seems like that slot might be better filled with Remand and Serum #4.

I think not playing 4 Remand is a mistake.

I don't know how necessary Clique is Game 1.

I don't know how I feel about Opt. One one hand, it is objectively worse at digging for pieces than Serum or even Sleight of Hand. On the other, it's something you can do at instant speed if you're holding up a counter and they do nothing, or you're bluffing a tapper and want to use your mana on their end step.

Not sure how I feel about Fiery Islet either. The games Twin often lost were to fast aggro decks that got under the counters and we couldn't combo quick enough (remember, under perfect ideal conditions, you're still only looking at ~23% of the time). Dealing damage to one's self to every time we cast super blue-intensive spells can add up.

I don't know how much I like Archmage's Charm over Cryptic. I don't like a 2/2 split, but mostly because I don't like how few Cryptics that is. If I had to cut something for a 3rd Cryptic, it would be a Charm. 3/1 doesn't seem bad.

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Post by The Fluff » 4 years ago

now, this is much better. discussion can be focused instead of mixed up with other discussions in the other thread.

the manabase looks ok at 22 land. I like the single desolate lighthouse.

maybe one keranos, god of storms in the sideboard for grindy match-ups?
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Post by cfusionpm » 4 years ago

The Fluff wrote:
4 years ago
maybe one keranos, god of storms in the sideboard for grindy match-ups?
I mean, pick your poison. There are a million cards you could slot in for grindy matches. Most of them are Planeswalkers these days, but of the 1-2 SB slots usually reserved for that, you could have:

Keranos
Ral Izzet Viceroy
Jace TMS
Jace AoT
Chandra ToD
Chandra Awakened Inferno
Pia & Kiran
etc.

None of these stand held and shoulders above any other and each have their benefits and drawbacks, other than P&K maybe being the weakest. Going into a third color adds a lot of options, but it's already cluttered in just UR!

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Post by Wraithpk » 4 years ago

cfusionpm wrote:
4 years ago
Some preliminary thoughts:

Is there a reason to run Force of Negation main deck? Without the benefit of finding, protecting, or threatening the combo (which should be the priority game 1), it seems like that slot might be better filled with Remand and Serum #4.
The thought was to play it as a defensive card like the control decks do. I agree with you that it's rarely going to be used to protect the combo, it only works for that purpose if you flash in a creature and try to tap them off removal mana, forcing them to use their removal on their turn. Besides that, I think I have to at least try the card, because I know if we don't the anti-Twin people will criticize us for it.
I think not playing 4 Remand is a mistake.

I don't know how necessary Clique is Game 1.
Ok, I suppose we can make that swap.
I don't know how I feel about Opt. One one hand, it is objectively worse at digging for pieces than Serum or even Sleight of Hand. On the other, it's something you can do at instant speed if you're holding up a counter and they do nothing, or you're bluffing a tapper and want to use your mana on their end step.
It doesn't dig as well as SV for sure, but as you said, it works so much better with the flash game plan. I really wanted to play 4 of both, but i just couldn't find room.
Not sure how I feel about Fiery Islet either. The games Twin often lost were to fast aggro decks that got under the counters and we couldn't combo quick enough (remember, under perfect ideal conditions, you're still only looking at ~23% of the time). Dealing damage to one's self to every time we cast super blue-intensive spells can add up.
What would you want to replace it with? Cascade Bluffs? Another basic Island?
I don't know how much I like Archmage's Charm over Cryptic. I don't like a 2/2 split, but mostly because I don't like how few Cryptics that is. If I had to cut something for a 3rd Cryptic, it would be a Charm. 3/1 doesn't seem bad.
2 Cryptics was pretty stock in 2015. If I was going to cut the Charms I think I would want main deck Jaces before more Cryptics.
The Fluff wrote:
4 years ago
now, this is much better. discussion can be focused instead of mixed up with other discussions in the other thread.

the manabase looks ok at 22 land. I like the single desolate lighthouse.

maybe one keranos, god of storms in the sideboard for grindy match-ups?
There is roughly a 100% chance I have a Keranos in the board, that's my second favorite card after Snap. I really just wanted to iron out the main deck before we move on to the sideboard.
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Post by Wraithpk » 4 years ago

So swap Jace into the main and FoN to the sideboard? Ok, I like your list, gkourou
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Post by cfusionpm » 4 years ago

Wraithpk wrote:
4 years ago
2 Cryptics was pretty stock in 2015. If I was going to cut the Charms I think I would want main deck Jaces before more Cryptics.
Cryptic seems sooooo versatile and helpful in stabilizing and not dying. Tapping the team, bouncing something, or countering something to buy another turn is often enough to turn the corner and win. Piggybacking off of the Fiery Islet remark, I would highly consider Mystic Sanctuary as replacement. It also gels nicely with Cryptics.

I don't ever want to tap lands on my turn. For the last year or so, I have spent a lot of times playing decks with both Jace and Cryptic. Almost every time I had a Jace instead of a Cryptic in hand, I did not have an opportune time to tap out/low for it, and I was just wishing it was another Crypric. Jace has been exceedingly underwhelming overall and I am not excited for the card whatsoever. He is just another option in a long list of possible options for grindy matches. He is not special or considerably better than any other option.

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Post by Wraithpk » 4 years ago

I don't think we can play Mystic Sanctuary because there will be times where you'll lose because it's the 4th land you draw and you have a Sulfur Falls on board, so it comes in tapped.

As for Cryptic, is there a reason we would need more Cryptics today than we did in 2015? I know the card is really good, but 2 was always fine.
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Post by cfusionpm » 4 years ago

You didn't need as many broad/versatile answers in 2015. Cryptic hits a ton of relevant things that keep us from winning or keep us alive. At least one that comes to mind are decks which main deck Ensnaring Bridge, or decks which requite a Primeval Titan to resolve and attack. Cryptic is too good and does too many things for me not to play at least 3 copies in any deck that wants to play it.

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Post by metalmusic_4 » 4 years ago

I like several of the thoughts here and am glad someone set this up. I have a few points I would like to stress.

- I like 2 force of negation main. Free counterspells = good IMO.
- I don't like archmage's charm, I would remove it entirely.
- I'm a believer in blood moon, I would run 2 instead of the charm.
- maybe try 1 mystic sanctuary, could be good to return a counter.

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Post by Wraithpk » 4 years ago

We're definitely going to have FoN and Blood Moon in the 75. I think Blood Moon is still a sideboard card, though. I think I want 2 in the board. I could really go either way with Force.

I really want to try the Archmage's Charms in the deck. It's become a staple in Blue Moon decks today, and I like what it does for Twin. When you get to 3 mana, your opponent is really going to be guessing, not knowing if you're holding up a combo creature, a Charm, or a Snap Bolt/Opt. All of its modes are relevant too, additional hard counters to go along with the Cryptics help the control plan, the draw 2 digs you to combo pieces, and the mind control mode can be relevant in certain matchups.

I really don't think we want Mystic Sanctuary. We want deck velocity, digging through our deck, not putting spells back on top. Plus, it will absolutely cause you to lose games when you need to draw a 4th land to combo and it's the land you draw. I don't want anything that could come in play tapped as my 4th land.
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Post by idSurge » 4 years ago

Jace is not main deck material. Its simply not that good for UR, and that is fact proven out by how many months of Blue Moon being 'meh'.

UR would not be as good at keeping a board clear, is not nearly as good at protection of its own assets as UW, and its strengths are Tempo (Bolt/Snap/Clique/Remand) and cheating out wins via Moon effects. None of this screams 'Jace' to me.

I'd keep it clean to start with.

EDIT: I wish there was a way to put in Mystic Sanctuary, but those games where it is the land you need to play Turn 4 and you cannot twin out? Soul crushing.
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UR Control UR

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Post by metalmusic_4 » 4 years ago

My first list might be something like:
Decklist
Approximate Total Cost:

I know blood moon creates some nonbos with mystic sanctuary and cryptic command, but in the matches where it is good it is VERY good.

Also, I know we are just getting started and we have to begin where we left off with the winning deck lists from when it was legal, but these are very traditional looking lists. Alot has changed it we have many new toys. There may be value in brainstorming wilder new ideas involving something like as foretold with ancestrial vision, lonely sandbar, or a really crazy idea like mono red prison using combat celebrant as the combo creature with blood moon, chalice and such. Most of these new ideas will fail, but some could be playable to very good. Ashiok can mill us for snapcaster targets while shutting down the opponents graveyard and fetch lands. We just have SO MANY new things to look at.

We are starting with playable deck lists, but the best build could be very different from what it was. I just don't want us to get limited by the older deck lists. Inspired by....yes, limited by....no.

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Post by Wraithpk » 4 years ago

I'm not really convinced that we want Blood Moon in the main deck. I definitely want 2 in the board, but it was always a sideboard plan for Twin. The main deck needs to be configured to maximize your combo potential.
There may be value in brainstorming wilder new ideas involving something like as foretold with ancestrial vision, lonely sandbar, or a really crazy idea like mono red prison using combat celebrant as the combo creature with blood moon, chalice and such. Most of these new ideas will fail, but some could be playable to very good.
It's possible, but there's not really any way to know. I think it's most likely that the best Twin deck would still be Izzet, or a 3 color build similar to the 2015 builds but with new cards. So, I think the best thing to do is to test the obvious things we would see if Twin was unbanned, which are the 2015-style builds.

We can also play some games with whatever list we end up on, and tweak some cards if things don't feel right. That said, I think I want to go ahead with Gkourou's 60 as a first draft. For reminders, it was this:
Decklist
Approximate Total Cost:

So, let's talk sideboard. I'm thinking:
This is 21 cards, so obviously we need to cut 6. Also, open to suggestions for cards I didn't think of.
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Post by BloodyRabbit » 4 years ago

This deck would want to operate exclusively on the opponent's turn.

Not running more than one Clique, the full set of Opt and some copies of Archmage's Charm seems just WRONG.

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Post by The Fluff » 4 years ago

Wraithpk wrote:
4 years ago
The Fluff wrote:
4 years ago
now, this is much better. discussion can be focused instead of mixed up with other discussions in the other thread.

the manabase looks ok at 22 land. I like the single desolate lighthouse.

maybe one keranos, god of storms in the sideboard for grindy match-ups?
There is roughly a 100% chance I have a Keranos in the board, that's my second favorite card after Snap. I really just wanted to iron out the main deck before we move on to the sideboard.
I like the card years ago because Keranos is uncounterable by spell pierce, which many decks used when twin was legal. Also, once he's on the board he's hard to get rid of - he's almost never a creature in our deck so cannot be pathed, and cannot be attacked because he's not a walker.

about the main. Several ideas floating around on the thread. I still feel blood moon belongs in the side, not the main. As there are match-ups where it's not good.
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Post by BloodyRabbit » 4 years ago

I was used to play UR Twin with 22 lands, 4 Remands and 4 Visions. For years. It means having a huge possibility of going straight for three lands in a row without having to using cantrips, and Charms help digging for other mana sources if necessary. I wouldn't touch it.

If you also add Jace (2 other 4cc mana drop) it's obvious that you need a different manabase, though.

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Post by Tzoulis » 4 years ago

If you want instant speed grindy cards you should look a couple of Into the Story, it seems perfect for the playstyle of the deck, both pre- and post-board.

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Post by BloodyRabbit » 4 years ago

So, four 4-drops, but 3 opt 3 SV 4 remand, have to be working right, yes?
And 22 lands? No way it isn't working.

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Post by idSurge » 4 years ago

BloodyRabbit wrote:
4 years ago
I was used to play UR Twin with 22 lands, 4 Remands and 4 Visions. For years. It means having a huge possibility of going straight for three lands in a row without having to using cantrips, and Charms help digging for other mana sources if necessary. I wouldn't touch it.

If you also add Jace (2 other 4cc mana drop) it's obvious that you need a different manabase, though.
Something else is, didnt people start shaving off a Twin? 6 Tappers and 3 Twins? I dont know if that was just something my local group started doing, but if people are loading up on Opts and Charms, do you NEED 4 Twin?
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Post by BloodyRabbit » 4 years ago

Something else is, didnt people start shaving off a Twin? 6 Tappers and 3 Twins?
I played 3 Twin when running Jeskai Twin and Tempo Twin with Young Pyromancer (basically the same shell as TarmoTwin).

I do think the fourth one is correct when you don't have enough power to reliably close a game. Either you run more beaters (Seasoned Pyromancer may be one, I invite you to look at my Jeskai Copycat lists in the old forum - in The Jeskai Way thread) or you go for the full set.

What I always found important was splitting the tappers. 3-3 is perfect, cause Exarch is damn BAD at racing people, while Fatal Push and Path to Exile are as popular as Lightning Bolt. Except in a field filled with Burn, I would never go 4-2.

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Post by Wraithpk » 4 years ago

Some of the 3 color builds would play 3 Twins, but Izzet always played 4.

It feels really bad to cut more of the cantrips. I really wanted 4 and 4, ideally, but there just wasn't room. There's only about a 4% difference in hitting your 4th land drop on turn 4 with 22 lands vs. 23 lands, but if you account for the additional odds of having a SV to see 3 cards deeper, that closes to just a 1% difference. I think we should try 22 lands, we'll probably know in testing if we need to change that, but theoretically it should be fine.
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Post by TheAnnihilator » 4 years ago

I've also been on UR Kiki for a while, sorry I'm late to this discussion. Here's the list I would be on:

This is the 75. I really like gk's lists in general, but here are my thoughts:

- 22 land is actually not enough. Twin always used to play 23 (albeit, with only Serum as a cantrip) but you want to hit every land until turn 4 and be able to find either counters or bolts with Opt/Serum. If you're digging for land, you're putting yourself way behind.

- 4 Opt is a must, and it's better than Serum because you can Snap it back at instant speed. Mainphasing a Snap-Serum was always risky, and doing so without Force maindeck to be shields up during their turn is just bad. Opt doesn't dig as much, but the fact it plays better with Snap makes it much better imo.

- Only 1 Sinkhole main. The card is awful in some matchups, and you really just want to hit a single Goyf/Walker with it for tempo. The 2nd Sinkhole is usually very dead, but it's worth a sideboard slot, so I cut the Fry to fit it. It's similar to when Twin played Roast --> 1 main, 1 side.

- Archmage's Charm -- I cut it for the 4th Opt. The curve is generally always too high in Twin, since you're required to play at least 10 3+ cards not including Clique, Jace, and Cryptic, which are also almost always included. ACharm is the worst of the 3+ cards we play, so I cut one to lower the curve a bit.

- Cutting the Fiery Islet -- aggro decks that have approximately 6 or more cards that interact with the combo (between main and side) were always the worst matchup for Twin, including mainly red decks with Rending Volley or W with Path to Exile and either Spellskite or enchantment hate in the board (see Nature's Claim). Twin has a Loothouse for filtering lands late against grindy decks, so I think that Islet is more of a liability. Instead, I added a 6th Island (since you frequently want to topdeck Islands in postboard games where Moon comes in) and made the 23rd land a singleton Field of Ruin for Cavern and manlands (e.g. Colonnade in particular), but it also helps postboard vs. Tron when the games slow down a bit.

- Cut Keranos from the board -- Even before Twin was banned, Keranos was trending down because it too often plays from behind. A bolt or redraw if it's a land is just not fast enough against Jund anymore. I prefer to leave the Ral, since it can come down and immediately kill a Goyf, which is insanely valuable in the Jund matchup. I suppose Ral is worse against Force than Keranos, but I think that's fine, as most control matchups were fine.

- Cut the sideboard Disdainful Stroke for the 2nd Clique. Against decks like Tron, the game slows down a lot after G1 and you have to play around Nature's Claim. The 2nd Clique is important in the big mana and control matchups where it's just too risky to go for the combo. Clique beats usually get there. Also, Force does a good job countering a lot of the relevant cards from these matchups anyways.

- Trim the 2nd Dispel in the board to hit 15 sb cards: Dispel is much worse now that Dovin's Veto and Force of Negation invalidate "true" counter wars. Dispel is actually best against Burn and Tron (again, for Claim), but I think 1 is fine.

As a note, I see some people suggesting less than 4 Deceivers. That is absolutely incorrect. Deceiver is easily the best combo piece, and Mite is only there as "duplicates", but it's definitely worse.

As a side note, has anyone considered Brineborn Cutthroat for the list, is is that too experimental? A lot of current Kiki lists are playing 4 Cutthroats, and I would expect that to translate over to Twin too.

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Post by TheAnnihilator » 4 years ago

BloodyRabbit wrote:
4 years ago
Something else is, didnt people start shaving off a Twin? 6 Tappers and 3 Twins?
I played 3 Twin when running Jeskai Twin and Tempo Twin with Young Pyromancer (basically the same shell as TarmoTwin).

I do think the fourth one is correct when you don't have enough power to reliably close a game. Either you run more beaters (Seasoned Pyromancer may be one, I invite you to look at my Jeskai Copycat lists in the old forum - in The Jeskai Way thread) or you go for the full set.

What I always found important was splitting the tappers. 3-3 is perfect, cause Exarch is damn BAD at racing people, while Fatal Push and Path to Exile are as popular as Lightning Bolt. Except in a field filled with Burn, I would never go 4-2.
You want the 4th Deceiver because of cards like Kolaghan's Command, Grim Lavamancer, Electrolyze, and even a Searing Blaze with no land drop. These are cards that would never kill Deceiver by themselves, but would be excellent against Pestermite (and also would be more widely played if Twin were legal again). It's not just Bolt, but other mainboard cards that happen to incidentally hate on Pestermite.

Most 3 color lists played the 3-3 split because you needed room for splash color cards like Resto, Helix, and Path for UWR and Tasigur, Kommand, and Terminate for Grixis while also playing a more tempo focused plan than combo focused. Resto, Goyf, and Tasigur generally meant you were winning significantly more through regular damage. RUG tempo Twin I believe usually played 4 Exarchs because it only splashed Green for Goyf and sometimes Scooze.

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Post by Wraithpk » 4 years ago

Oh damn man, I really like your list.

Keranos vs. Ral. I dunno, the appeal to Keranos was always that Jund just can't ever deal with him, so he's a source of repeatable card advantage that they can't do anything about. Ral's upside is certainly higher if he sticks around, but they have a ton of ways to kill him.

I did see people playing with Brineborn Cutthroat, but what would we even cut for it? It doesn't do anything to advance the combo plan, so it wouldn't be a maindeck card, and people are already going to bring in removal against you, so it doesn't really make sense as a sideboard plan either.
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