Re: [Official] State of Modern Thread (B&R 01/13/2020)
Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2020 4:46 pm
good grief... not Twin debate again...
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Affinity is one of the easiest decks to pack sideboard hate for, because it takes splash damage from several other decks. Graveyard hate like Rest in Peace and Leyline of the Void is fantastic against Ravager, Plague Engineer is strong against a field of X/1's, Kolaghan's Command keeps it down, Chalice of the Void hits it hard, Collector Ouphe, Karn, and others all deal with artifacts well (Force of Nature even massively hurts them).Simto wrote: ↑4 years agoHow would it play out if the artifact lands were unbanned? I hope they will be, because I love artifact decks hehe.
Would it be less explosive than having Mox Opal, but better in the mid/long game because of more artifacts on the table aka more synergy/power?
Karn the great creator and Collector Ouphe are two natural enemies of those lands, so there's definitely stuff to keep them in check.
I feel like we'll have to agree to disagree here. First of all, those "rules" are not very clear to some millions of former Modern players. Secondly, some of them have slightly changed since 2011.gkourou wrote: ↑4 years agoWhat I forgot to say, because I thought it was obvious is that they unban cards that are
1) fine to unban(not limit diversity, not create logistics, not create unfun play patterns, not break the T4 rule all of those while being top tier) and
2) have an upside.
When Ferocidon was unbanned, it had 3 remaining weeks to show itself, so it was more of a "take it, even if you break the format, it's going to be 3 week, we don't care".
Why would Mox Opal be unbanned? It was just banned, because of the reasons it was banned.
Crabvine is being played, I saw quite few of those decks recently, even if it not such a great rate. Bridge could be unbanned. Again, the risk is bigger than the reward. They don't want to help graveyard decks at all, even if Bridge will help them only just marginally.
Punishing Fire, Deathrite Shaman, Birthing Pod helping midrange is not the only upside to unban those cards.
DRS could really limit diversity(there is this real risk), Birthing Pod could really limit card design space, Punishing Fire runs the risk of hurting even more the weenie decks that have a problem.
There is no hypocrisy here. It's their line of thinking and I agree with them. A card being fine is not enough to unban a card. It has to be fine(DRS probably isnt, Birthing pod probably isn't) and has to create an upside(Punishing fire creates non).
They balance risk and reward. Only when the reward is much bigger, while the card being safe, they unban a card. Atm, there is no such a card in the Banlist. I predict no unbans during 2020. And that's an easy prediction. If Veil is banned, only then small chance for Twin.
Birthing Pod is a combo card that was played in a deck that was almost exclusively Midrange. Sure, it shut down any other type of Midrange deck because it was the best one. It also shut down Burn, which I don't mind, but maybe Burn gets some new tools to help fight that?drmarkb wrote: ↑4 years agoBirthing Pod is a combo card. It also gives a fine plan B of increased value to rub salt in the wound. It needs to stay banned. Forever.
Drs is an obnoxious 1 mana planeswalker in any format with fetches.
Twin is twin and the most polarizing card in history.
Unbans need an upside. The process of bans is pretty haphazard but most of the banlist is fair, or would be if they took the same approach today as they once did rather than letting things exist that are as bad as those offenders from history.
We would need a smaller banlist if they printed better maindeckable answers that punished the linear decks, get that right and things will improve.
These are hypothetical guesses at best, and baseless doomsaying at worst. Plenty of people said Jace would tear Modern into pieces and that Stoneforge was an unstoppable meanace that would cause everyone to have to play it.gkourou wrote: ↑4 years agoLiterally no upside in Twin, and it would surely cause more harm than good in the worst case scenario or in the best case scenario, just create a new combo deck, while removing some other decks that would have a bad matchup. There is 0% to have a net positive in Modern's diversity.
So, the worst case scenario is awful, the best case scenario is not even good, and all the in between shades also bad.
Neither do I, but here we are, continuing to spout opinions about hypotheticals as if they are truth and fact. I'd rather actually see for myself given that Modern is categorically unrecognizable and exponentially more powerful than when it was banned. Whatever we think we know is irrelevant, and whatever "testing" has been done is statistically meaningless. I'll bet the deck isn't even that good in a format where most decks put immediate and insurmountable pressure as early as turn 2. But hey, whatevs.That will do it for more for the Twin debate and I don't wanna speak more about it. Let's move on.
Weren't the last several pages talking about how Astrolabe needed to be banned? Besides, any single event is wholly meaningless. It's especially meaningless in the chaos and shake-up immediately following a B&R change.Today's prelim features so many fair snow decks. That's a good thing for the format. Uro is proving itself to be better than we thought it would be. Modern has a chance of being a fair format, after so many years. Let's see.
my god, all hail to the "many fair snow decks". Are you sure you don't mean "fair" as in my fair lady?
fully agree. As someone who played Affinity in legacy for almost 5 years, and another 3 years or so in Modern... the deck folds hard to several kinds of artifact removal. Creeping corrosion is a one-sided board wipe and almost a free win. Hurkyll's Recall allows merfolk wins on game 2. It's the reason I sold all my opal and ravager in 2017, to buy a playset of goyf, but today even goyf feels not so strong in modern.Aazadan wrote: ↑4 years agoAffinity is one of the easiest decks to pack sideboard hate for,Simto wrote: ↑4 years agoHow would it play out if the artifact lands were unbanned? I hope they will be, because I love artifact decks hehe.
Would it be less explosive than having Mox Opal, but better in the mid/long game because of more artifacts on the table aka more synergy/power?
Karn the great creator and Collector Ouphe are two natural enemies of those lands, so there's definitely stuff to keep them in check.
I don't understand this logic, especially given the massive doomsaying from hundreds of players, pros, and writers had about both Jace and Stoneforge. Was everyone just massively wrong about Jace and Stoneforge? Is everyone wrong about the "risks" of Twin as well? Where does this confidence of brokenness and risk come from? Why is there not the upside of promoting interaction by being so easy to interact with? Why is there not the upside of punishing fast goldfish decks?gkourou wrote: ↑4 years agoAll of this, makes the risk of unbanning JTMS minimal. Not 0%, but minimal. Now, think how much better a card like Splinter Twin is, a card that is being played at a shell that can delay the game and end it on the spot with another card being played at instant speed. Not draw 3, put back 2 in library, win. I am sure you realize the risk with Twin is so much higher, right?
I am from an older time. I've played since 1994 with time off in between, but non stop since Mirrodin.gkourou wrote: ↑4 years agoWhat do people want out of a fair deck in modern? To win with Dream Trawler? Even Modern's "fair" decks, have to cheat something, somehow.
Do you think adding the artifact lands would make the Urza decks stronger aka the reason Mox Opal got banned? I have a feeling Affinity and Hardened Scales will have a tough time because of being hit by bans and hate that's meant for the Urza deck, but sadly hits the other decks too.Aazadan wrote: ↑4 years agoAffinity is one of the easiest decks to pack sideboard hate for, because it takes splash damage from several other decks. Graveyard hate like Rest in Peace and Leyline of the Void is fantastic against Ravager, Plague Engineer is strong against a field of X/1's, Kolaghan's Command keeps it down, Chalice of the Void hits it hard, Collector Ouphe, Karn, and others all deal with artifacts well (Force of Nature even massively hurts them).Simto wrote: ↑4 years agoHow would it play out if the artifact lands were unbanned? I hope they will be, because I love artifact decks hehe.
Would it be less explosive than having Mox Opal, but better in the mid/long game because of more artifacts on the table aka more synergy/power?
Karn the great creator and Collector Ouphe are two natural enemies of those lands, so there's definitely stuff to keep them in check.
As far as aggro decks go, Affinity is one of the safest to have in the format because it's an easy target to sideboard against.
And, like I said in my earlier arguments, not only is the original ban reason no longer relevant, but there is an actual hole in the current metagame in having aggressive heavily creature based decks. And the only one which was even a possible factor was Affinity which was wiped out as splash damage from Mox. Bringing back the artifact lands makes a lot of sense in my opinion.
yeah, battle rage + a giant shadow can be lethal fast. Although my first encounter with shadow decks, I was thinking the deck was easy, because beat them easily game 1. On game 2 my creatures were killed by drown in sorrow, and they started looping kolaghan's command, snapcaster, and tasigur, to keep bringing back killed shadows - a few more games, and I realized shadow decks are the real thing. Thankfully, my main deck at that time is uw, so I have the tools - celestial purge, rip, halo, pte.FoodChainGoblins wrote: ↑4 years agoI am from an older time. I've played since 1994 with time off in between, but non stop since Mirrodin.gkourou wrote: ↑4 years agoWhat do people want out of a fair deck in modern? To win with Dream Trawler? Even Modern's "fair" decks, have to cheat something, somehow.
I am from an older time when it didn't take a fair deck attacking with a 9/9 for B that got Double Strike and Trample for 1R (essentially a Berserk that doesn't make the creature die at EoT). Up until just a few months ago, I literally only lost to Shadow decks because of Temur Battle Rage. Part of this is me playing decks that fair well vs. it. Part of this is countless play testing hours vs. this deck because I hate it. Part of this is because many of the decks I play are redundant and discard often slows down the opponent as well. The win-cons that I used to play the last time I played a "fair" deck was Cloudthresher or Broodmate Dragon in Standard 5 Color Control or Baneslayer Angel in Standard UW Tapout and Control later on. I could close the game quickly between double dragons and Cruel Ultimatum, but I could never do over 20 damage through a field of blockers. Plus, the answers to creatures were a lot better at that time.
I am not going to post more because this will probably erase, so I'll leave it at that...
It is not an argument, it is a statement. It won't come back was what I was implying.
I miss those builds of Shadow. Very grindy and tempo. I reluctantly kept mine that way much longer than I should have. It's been a long time since I've seen those ones do well. Seems now it's "double strike + trample or bust" most of the time. Much less interesting or fun to play.The Fluff wrote: ↑4 years agoyeah, battle rage + a giant shadow can be lethal fast. Although my first encounter with shadow decks, I was thinking the deck was easy, because beat them easily game 1. On game 2 my creatures were killed by drown in sorrow, and they started looping kolaghan's command, snapcaster, and tasigur, to keep bringing back killed shadows - a few more games, and I realized shadow decks are the real thing. Thankfully, my main deck at that time is uw, so I have the tools - celestial purge, rip, halo, pte.
No. I think artifact lands would do very little for Urza. Single color, can't fetch, can't cast Astrolabe, does not accelerate mana. They may play a couple but it wouldn't be a meaningful boost.Simto wrote: ↑4 years agoDo you think adding the artifact lands would make the Urza decks stronger aka the reason Mox Opal got banned? I have a feeling Affinity and Hardened Scales will have a tough time because of being hit by bans and hate that's meant for the Urza deck, but sadly hits the other decks too.Aazadan wrote: ↑4 years agoAffinity is one of the easiest decks to pack sideboard hate for, because it takes splash damage from several other decks. Graveyard hate like Rest in Peace and Leyline of the Void is fantastic against Ravager, Plague Engineer is strong against a field of X/1's, Kolaghan's Command keeps it down, Chalice of the Void hits it hard, Collector Ouphe, Karn, and others all deal with artifacts well (Force of Nature even massively hurts them).Simto wrote: ↑4 years agoHow would it play out if the artifact lands were unbanned? I hope they will be, because I love artifact decks hehe.
Would it be less explosive than having Mox Opal, but better in the mid/long game because of more artifacts on the table aka more synergy/power?
Karn the great creator and Collector Ouphe are two natural enemies of those lands, so there's definitely stuff to keep them in check.
As far as aggro decks go, Affinity is one of the safest to have in the format because it's an easy target to sideboard against.
And, like I said in my earlier arguments, not only is the original ban reason no longer relevant, but there is an actual hole in the current metagame in having aggressive heavily creature based decks. And the only one which was even a possible factor was Affinity which was wiped out as splash damage from Mox. Bringing back the artifact lands makes a lot of sense in my opinion.
An unbanning of the artifact lands is probably being held back because of Urza getting the power of Mox Opal back in a sense. I know it's not quite the same, but the artifact lands are definitely a type of fuel hehe.
I hope there's some sort of help coming to the aggro based artifact decks soon.
I remember I played against a dude at my LGS's fnm who had a completely foiled out Affinity deck with Mox Opal sleeves and playmat. I feel bad for him now.
Artifact lands would do little for affinity as well. If anything, they'd supercharge Emry/Breach/Station combos.
Menguchi 5-0'd the MODO event yesterday with a Breach deck, which is how I'd build it, without the control elements and more WinCons.idSurge wrote: ↑4 years agoHonestly, if I was looking to buy or build a new deck, it would be one of these 3.
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/2828440#paper - Breach Combo/Control
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/2828441#paper - Snowblade
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/2828443#paper - 4C Control
I refuse to play T3feri however...so would make an intentionally worse version of probably the first one.
Affinity would change it's cards for sure, to use actual cards with Affinity again, but that would get them the acceleration they lost with Mox gone. Emry wouldn't see much change in her power level. The cards are completely safe.
that's what I like about modern. Decks always try to evolve to become better.cfusionpm wrote: ↑4 years agoI miss those builds of Shadow. Very grindy and tempo. I reluctantly kept mine that way much longer than I should have. It's been a long time since I've seen those ones do well. Seems now it's "double strike + trample or bust" most of the time. Much less interesting or fun to play.The Fluff wrote: ↑4 years agoyeah, battle rage + a giant shadow can be lethal fast. Although my first encounter with shadow decks, I was thinking the deck was easy, because beat them easily game 1. On game 2 my creatures were killed by drown in sorrow, and they started looping kolaghan's command, snapcaster, and tasigur, to keep bringing back killed shadows - a few more games, and I realized shadow decks are the real thing. Thankfully, my main deck at that time is uw, so I have the tools - celestial purge, rip, halo, pte.
In other news, From the Vault Fetchlands was announced: https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/a ... 2020-03-13
It's not the format anymore. You would be hard pressed to convince me that it's not just Magic now. It's been like this since we'll...before Eldrazi.
I just don't like that the evolution is "How can I remove interaction with my opponents and instead just kill them faster?"The Fluff wrote: ↑4 years agothat's what I like about modern. Decks always try to evolve to become better.cfusionpm wrote: ↑4 years agoI miss those builds of Shadow. Very grindy and tempo. I reluctantly kept mine that way much longer than I should have. It's been a long time since I've seen those ones do well. Seems now it's "double strike + trample or bust" most of the time. Much less interesting or fun to play.The Fluff wrote: ↑4 years agoyeah, battle rage + a giant shadow can be lethal fast. Although my first encounter with shadow decks, I was thinking the deck was easy, because beat them easily game 1. On game 2 my creatures were killed by drown in sorrow, and they started looping kolaghan's command, snapcaster, and tasigur, to keep bringing back killed shadows - a few more games, and I realized shadow decks are the real thing. Thankfully, my main deck at that time is uw, so I have the tools - celestial purge, rip, halo, pte.
In other news, From the Vault Fetchlands was announced: https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/a ... 2020-03-13
nice new art on the zen fetchlands. I wonder how much they would cost?