MTGNexus

Tzoulis wrote: ↑

4 years ago

If people think Pioneer will not have any degenerate crap and that they'll enjoy Midrange vs Midrange/Control decks, they're wholly mistaken. I'm not talking the wild west style at the moment, I'm talking after the ban list is settled, the best decks will include degeneracy.

They absolutely will. The HOPE however, is enough to pull people in. I'm following decklists on twitter, there are literally dozens of new decks posted every day, and plenty are degenerate. They are not the Modern degenerate however, and for some, thats enough.

idSurge wrote: ↑

4 years ago

Tzoulis wrote: ↑

4 years ago

If people think Pioneer will not have any degenerate crap and that they'll enjoy Midrange vs Midrange/Control decks, they're wholly mistaken. I'm not talking the wild west style at the moment, I'm talking after the ban list is settled, the best decks will include degeneracy.

They absolutely will. The HOPE however, is enough to pull people in. I'm following decklists on twitter, there are literally dozens of new decks posted every day, and plenty are degenerate. They are not the Modern degenerate however, and for some, thats enough.

This is a good explanation of how I feel as well. After reading an article from a local Judge who was "into" the Frontier format, I am pretty convinced that he is right for the most part. He said that a lot of players may think that they can do Midrange and Control type decks in Frontier and they were dead wrong. Combo and super quick Aggro decks ran the format and he believes that it will be the same for Pioneer.

I think it will be fairly degenerate, but there isn't quite the fear of potentially dying on turns 2 or 3 like when you play against Neobrand, Storm, or a handful of other Modern decks that have the ability to kill quickly. I hate to bring up Teferi, Time Raveler again, but I think this is probably going to be the first format that pushes this card to get banned. Sure, there are plenty of other targets, like the Cat and others, but Teferi is not going to be long for this world if Wizards wants players to play this format, as evidenced by 3 GPs coming up.

I saw yesterday a lot of treasure cruise and dig trough time battles.... No it wasn't hard to cast

What source are you watching these pioneer vids from? YouTube, a twitch channel or a specific website like SCG or something ?

Only a random twitch streamer. Didn't remember even his name anymore. But he played dig through time and oko, seemed busted versus brews of opponents, like gatedeck, mono red, green stompy. His lost was versus another oko deck and treasure cruise. Oko is horrible. People had a lot of problems versus this walker. Wotc needs a anti walker card which is good and not only card disadvantage

Oko looks better and better every time I see him in action in any format. I expect he will end up banned in standard and Pioneer at some point. I will be picking him up for modern, but not at his current price.

metalmusic_4 wrote: ↑

4 years ago

What source are you watching these pioneer vids from? YouTube, a twitch channel or a specific website like SCG or something ?

CalebD has been streaming Pioneer the past couple of days, although I've only managed to see him for a bit and he played mostly Rx brews.
MTGGoldfish will stream Pioneer as well tonight.

metalmusic_4 wrote: ↑

4 years ago

Oko looks better and better every time I see him in action in any format. I expect he will end up banned in standard and Pioneer at some point. I will be picking him up for modern, but not at his current price.

I ended up getting 4 of them at $32, $42, $30, and most recently, $42.66. I am awaiting the other 3 coming in the mail any day now because I really, really want to try more copies in the SB of Paradoxical Urza and Crab Vine.

I do agree that the card will definitely eat a ban at some time in some format. I just don't know where it will happen first, even if Standard is a solid bet. I am tempted to now spend another $200 for 4 Hydroid Krasis and 4 Questing Beast and now having the best Standard deck in the format (of course there's some other small stuff too, but those are the biggest).

I agree with Robert and Idsurge's general drift- people play Modern, but it is often their 2nd/3rd favourite format, and because it is ubiquitous people buy in.

Personally I will have two decks for Pioneer- one blue tempo deck with the basic land loving Djinn, copter and a bunch of onedrops like judge's familiar, stormtamer etc. with favourable winds and some bounce/counters.
One mono g stompy, probably on similar lines with Aspect of Hydra. I might stretch to mono-b devotion. Why? Becuase I want a deck I can pitch up with and play once in a blue moon. I don't give a toss about the format, so my investment will be the equivalent of the guy who turns up to Legacy with burn- a respectable deck that is not respected. Every deck will be midrange mush, tempo or degeneracy, until they ban the degeneracy. One of the reasons I enjoy Modern is that I can brew and play meta decks that prey on some of the the degeneracy a large percentage of the time, whilst losing to other degeneracy most of the time and desperately bringing in ten plus cards for game 2. I enjoy Chalice, Blood Moon, discard, Bridge, landkill, and other "annoying" strategies. I know when to sweep as do most enfranchised players, but I do understand that it can be frustrating to play on as a newer player who don't know when to sweep.

RTR has some answers in- it is no mistake that they included it- RIP, Decay, even DRS, Supreme Verdict. It won't be enough, and the ban list will step in, they have been honest about that. I hope they print more and more answers over the next few sets, I see no reason why degeneracy should exist if they print more suppression fields, stony silences, anti search, deafening silnces and other powerful restrictors, the issue is drawing them and for that reason I hope they print better filtering, even if tutoring is destined to be a distant dream.

I wouldn't mind if Into the Story ate a ban. The more I see this card in action the more ridiculous it becomes. Its almost Treasure Cruise all over again.

just suggesting, maybe there should be a "State of Pioneer Thread".. so all the pioneer talk could go there?

The Fluff wrote: ↑

4 years ago

just suggesting, maybe there should be a "State of Pioneer Thread".. so all the pioneer talk could go there?

The Fluff wrote: ↑

4 years ago

just suggesting, maybe there should be a "State of Pioneer Thread".. so all the pioneer talk could go there?

I don't disagree, but there is alot of overlap in the formats and its new so people are talking about it. Modern decks port to legacy, standard decks or combos can port to modern, i think its narural for pioneer to enter the modern discussion. We talk about legacy occasionally when we evaluate cards, in the future pioneer could be a useful tool in evaluating cards for modern. The Pioneer talk on this thread will likely die down.

Also there are always multiple conversations happening at the same time here, so if someone has modern things to discuss just post it and we'll talk about it.

Obviously lots to talk about with Modern, Pioneer, and MTG generally, but I want to zoom in on a topic that has gathered a lot of steam in the last two weeks: Oko. I don't have any problem with this card in Modern, but I'm completely baffled and deeply alarmed that this card made it through the full Play Design Team process. How did this card happen in Standard? The M-Files articles are conspicuously silent on the topic (https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/a ... 2019-10-11). Garuuk and Scions got a note. But not Oko? The flagship planeswalker? I fear those design team notes are damningly ignorant/oblivious about just how good the card is and they don't want to reveal it, but maybe it was just an oversight.

Standard's recent collapse should be alarming for anyone who cares about Wizards' ability to balance formats. Wizards is struggling to balance Standard with a team dedicated to doing just that. Given this, there is no way we can expect them to balance Modern, Pioneer, or anything else if their team struggles with their job with such a small format. This means we can expect more broken Standard cards benefiting Modern, and we can expect anything designed for formats larger than Standard to be totally off the intended mark.

To be clear, this isn't to categorically knock Play Design. I think they have an extremely difficult job. That said, between Field, Oko, Nissa, and other cards, I'm really struggling to defend some of the team's decisions.

Agreed. Oko is fine in Modern, mostly because UG is such an underpowered color combination there. Standard and Pioneer are a different story. He needs a ban in Standard, and I wouldn't be surprised if he got banned in Pioneer. In a format with TC, DTT, DRS, multiple PT winning and banned red decks, Marvel, and Saheeli combo, Oko has really looked like the strongest thing in the format to me so far. And the most absurd thing is that the Simic food package can go in other decks. You can put it into a 4c Saheeli deck, or an energy deck, or add black and play Sultai midrange with all the best interaction in the format, or white and play Bant with Teferi. It's kinda gross.

The fact that the Elk ability is a plus absolutely baffles me. Who ever thought that was supposed to be ok? Even as a 0, it's probably too good.

Plaudits to WoTC, they actually created a card that's an all-star (maybe just format staple instead of all-star for Legacy) across 4 constructed formats at the same time. Who woulda thought.

Maybe they should errata Oko and make the Elk ability a -1 and reprint the card and offer everyone who has Oko's a free off charge exchange. Anyway I have said it before and will say it again. Too many bad development decisions and things gone horribly wrong the past years in Standard and Modern and supplemental products like Icon Masters, Horizons etc. I deeply respect what Forsyth and Maro have done for MTG as a whole for 2 decades but its their time to go. They have passed their prime by several years and are destroying their own legacy and respect by overstaying and thus underperforming. All good things must come to an end. Its like having CR7 and Messi keep playing until they are 50 and expect they perform just as well as they have always done. Their performance has declined so dramatically it is unjustifiable for them to keep their jobs. We aren't talking any more about isolated mistakes, but blunder after blunder after blunder by the dev team. They can either walk out with their heads high or stay 2 years more until their position is unsustainable and they get replaced and lose everything they worked for. Their entire career will be ruined by 5 years of incompetence because that is all people will remember.

1. WotC doesn't do functional erata. They'll just ban Oko if he's a problem in a format.

2. We don't know that the problems recently are AF's or Maro's fault. I don't think it's fair to point all the blame at them.

But man, where is a good planeswalkerhate without producing card disadvantage? They print a set full of walkers, they made m20 and next m21 with walker as top cards, they printed wrenn and six in mh1 and they produced oko. It's not only 1 walker, but why the he'll they don't print a good answer? Power creep without help versus. This problems they made with this walkers are design failures, not only power.... Answers they failed too

Wraithpk wrote: ↑

4 years ago

Agreed. Oko is fine in Modern, mostly because UG is such an underpowered color combination there.

I don't know if this statement is aging well. It's from way back 6 hours ago. I joke, but seriously there are lots of powerful UG decks. I know SCG events are not major events but I saw UG urza taking over today, UG infect doing we'll, and amulet titan (which is UG) finished day one 8-1. (And even though neobrand is inconsistant and doesnt put up great results all the time, i would still call it a powerful UG deck) Oko to my surprise was everywhere today. I think there are other color combos in more need than UG is.

I expect oko to be banned in Standard and pioneer, unsure on modern.
I expect the urza deck to get a ban in modern, but unsure which card.

The announcers were makeing jokes about the health of modern. The primary targets of their ire were Oko being too good and urza decks being to good.

iTaLenTZ wrote: ↑

4 years ago

I wouldn't mind if Into the Story ate a ban. The more I see this card in action the more ridiculous it becomes. Its almost Treasure Cruise all over again.

i hope you're joking

i really hope you aren't this ***

please tell me you're joking

please

Warning for trolling and inappropriate language (word redacted).
-ktkenshinx-

dogwave wrote: ↑

4 years ago

iTaLenTZ wrote: ↑

4 years ago

I wouldn't mind if Into the Story ate a ban. The more I see this card in action the more ridiculous it becomes. Its almost Treasure Cruise all over again.

i hope you're joking

i really hope you aren't this retarded

please tell me you're joking

please

There's no place here for insults like that. You can disagree with someone without resorting to ad hominems.

dogwave isn't here in good faith, no point responding to him.

looks like dogwave came from a place that is not properly moderated.. this is the first time I've seen that sort of language here.

______________________

About the WotC article. The one thing that comes to my attention is Fabled Passage being mentioned as "different enough" from Prismatic Vista. Ok, it looks different enough.. as in strictly worse kind of "different enough". Is prismatic vista too strong to reprint in a standard set?