[Official] State of Modern Thread (B&R 07/13/2020)

[EonAon]

Ive always had a question about modern. Why god why do I always see lists with fetches always not full setting a fetchland and getting by with off color fetches even when they should be adding two more like wooded foothills? Why do they add prismatic vista to the mix when two fetches would have been just as good if not better?
Example:
1 Hall of Heliod's Generosity
2 Prismatic Vista
5 Snow-Covered Forest
2 Snow-Covered Plains
1 Stomping Ground
2 Temple Garden
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Yavimaya, Cradle of Growth

I mean I get that some of these decks come from retailer sites and want you to buy a very diverse amount of product. I still see people doing this time and again for no real reason other than they may not IRL have the cards which in that case is fine, but some of this seems to come from pro players or long time players that should and probably do have the collection sets.

[TheAnnihilator]

Ive always had a question about modern. Why god why do I always see lists with fetches always not full setting a fetchland and getting by with off color fetches even when they should be adding two more like wooded foothills? Why do they add prismatic vista to the mix when two fetches would have been just as good if not better?
Example:
1 Hall of Heliod's Generosity
2 Prismatic Vista
5 Snow-Covered Forest
2 Snow-Covered Plains
1 Stomping Ground
2 Temple Garden
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Yavimaya, Cradle of Growth

I mean I get that some of these decks come from retailer sites and want you to buy a very diverse amount of product. I still see people doing this time and again for no real reason other than they may not IRL have the cards which in that case is fine, but some of this seems to come from pro players or long time players that should and probably do have the collection sets.

In this case, the reason is that Vista gets basics for playing around Blood Moon, which Enhantress sometimes plays. Any other fetch wouldn't be capable of getting both Plains and Forest.

Sometimes you'll see decks like Amulet Titan and Infect split fetches instead of playing sets of fetches, like 1 Windswept Heath, 1 Verdant Catacombs, instead of playing 2 of either. This is done to play around Pithing Needle.

[cfusionpm]

Also mind games with the opponent. If you only ever need to fetch something with green, a turn 1 Wooded Foothills telegraphs something very different (like Valakut, Ponza, etc) from Verdant Catacombs (Jund, Yawg, Shadow), or Misty Rainforest (Control, Infect, UR), or Windswept Heath (Bogles, Enchantress). It can greatly influence your opponent's first turn by misrepresenting what you're doing.

[Bearscape]

Consider is categorically better than Opt in nearly every possible application. Unless you are specifically looking for toolbox tutor targets (in which case, why are you playing Cantrips in the first place??), putting a card in your yard is better than the bottom of your library in almost every scenario today. Really glad I never sprang for OG foil Opts!

I got a nice extremely fringe "whell achtually" for you this time, something every mtg player enjoys when talking about strictly better; my Jeskai Nahiri lists will still want Opt as shuffling my graveyard away with Emrakul off consider would be a big issue

[robertleva]

Consider is categorically better than Opt in nearly every possible application. Unless you are specifically looking for toolbox tutor targets (in which case, why are you playing Cantrips in the first place??), putting a card in your yard is better than the bottom of your library in almost every scenario today. Really glad I never sprang for OG foil Opts!

I got a nice extremely fringe "whell achtually" for you this time, something every mtg player enjoys when talking about strictly better; my Jeskai Nahiri lists will still want Opt as shuffling my graveyard away with Emrakul off consider would be a big issue

Lol you managed to find a legit niche for Opt in a deck that is relevant. Well done sir!

[cfusionpm]

Had an interesting conversation with some folks last night at FNM about Hammer Time. Basically most agree it's basically the best deck, but creates fairly rancid and unfun gameplay patterns. The general sentiment among the several that were piecing it together was along the lines of "If I want to win a tournament (like the upcoming 2ks and 5ks),I'll play this. It's not fun or interesting, but my God does it win efficiently." I have yet to see it played by anyone at FNM, and of those building it, that was exclusively for the tournament and they have no intention of playing it Fridays.

Very interesting take.

[EonAon]

Im honestly unsure why they dont use Kor Duelist in hammer time. Like instead of the Sentinel which yeah can kinda draw cards but doesn't feel all that good, and if for no other reason dualist has to be responded to and that leaves your tech bits semi better protected from the aggro draw. I also kinda want to say put Plate Armor in but I really understand that that leaves the very important Lurrus engine out which in turn keeps it from being as robust as it is already.

[Tzoulis]

Im honestly unsure why they dont use Kor Duelist in hammer time. Like instead of the Sentinel which yeah can kinda draw cards but doesn't feel all that good, and if for no other reason dualist has to be responded to and that leaves your tech bits semi better protected from the aggro draw. I also kinda want to say put Plate Armor in but I really understand that that leaves the very important Lurrus engine out which in turn keeps it from being as robust as it is already.
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Big reason why HammerTime grinds so effectively is Sentinel. By cutting it for duelist (which thank you for remind me of it, I spent days trying to remember it) the deck becomes way more glass cannon-y, which is what Infect effectively was. Plus, it doesn't trample over and isn't an artifact (for Paladin and Saga's tokens).

Had an interesting conversation with some folks last night at FNM about Hammer Time. Basically most agree it's basically the best deck, but creates fairly rancid and unfun gameplay patterns. The general sentiment among the several that were piecing it together was along the lines of "If I want to win a tournament (like the upcoming 2ks and 5ks),I'll play this. It's not fun or interesting, but my God does it win efficiently." I have yet to see it played by anyone at FNM, and of those building it, that was exclusively for the tournament and they have no intention of playing it Fridays.

Very interesting take.

I wouldn't say it's the best deck, but one of the best for sure. Saw some Hammer games yesterday for the Hunter Burton Memorial Open, and it both got dunked on by Jund and it created interesting points of interaction and tension. I can see the "boring" part, but it feels to me that every combo deck - or hell, aggro deck - can be described as such; you either have enough disruption and a clock to win or they'll get to amass enough cards to push through.

During my FNMs this past month, that's literally the gameplay experience I've had against Ad Nauseam, Living End, 4c Scapeshift, Titan and Hammer (and Affinity to some extend). Which was exactly the same experience I've had for years against combo decks, with the most similar to HammerTime being Infect.

[motleyslayer]

Im honestly unsure why they dont use Kor Duelist in hammer time. Like instead of the Sentinel which yeah can kinda draw cards but doesn't feel all that good, and if for no other reason dualist has to be responded to and that leaves your tech bits semi better protected from the aggro draw. I also kinda want to say put Plate Armor in but I really understand that that leaves the very important Lurrus engine out which in turn keeps it from being as robust as it is already.

Before Hammertime was an actual known meta deck, there was a player at the main LGS I go to who played a very early/budget version of the deck. His version was Boros and ran creatures that were good when equipped like Kor Duelist Boros Swiftblade and Swiftblade Vindicator . Obviously this version was much slower than wha the deck became but it was interesting at the time

[EonAon]

Im honestly unsure why they dont use Kor Duelist in hammer time. Like instead of the Sentinel which yeah can kinda draw cards but doesn't feel all that good, and if for no other reason dualist has to be responded to and that leaves your tech bits semi better protected from the aggro draw. I also kinda want to say put Plate Armor in but I really understand that that leaves the very important Lurrus engine out which in turn keeps it from being as robust as it is already.

Before Hammertime was an actual known meta deck, there was a player at the main LGS I go to who played a very early/budget version of the deck. His version was Boros and ran creatures that were good when equipped like Kor Duelist Boros Swiftblade and Swiftblade Vindicator . Obviously this version was much slower than wha the deck became but it was interesting at the time

Honestly with Fighter Class that might be a nice cheap viable way if you cant sub the stoneforge. Would still get kludgy though.

[Simto]

So it looks like we're going to be playing Gandalf, Frodo, Uruk Hai, Arwen, Smaug etc etc etc in Modern next year. At least it wasn't Warhammer 40k being introduced into modern.... The Neon Dynasty and Gangster sets look waaaaay too futuristic for Magic if you ask me. Kaladesh (my favourite plane aesthetically) was already pushing the boundries. I was hoping the new Kamigawa set would have been set in a more ancient/feudal setting.
Not a fan at all of what we've seen so far and that's coming from somebody who's played Warhammer 40k since '94, is a closet weeb and love sci fi more than fantasy.
At least Lord of the Rings is fantasy so it won't look too different visually. Gandalf fighting a Dragon Rage Channeler won't look weird, but a Goblin Guide vs a Space Marine doesn't fit at all no matter how you slice it.

[Tzoulis]

next year

The set is slated for 2023, and probably for a summer release.

The Neon Dynasty and Gangster sets look waaaaay too futuristic for Magic

Early magic was built on mech suits, genetic splicing and engineering, space travel, AI and huge robots, nuclear reactors and many more (EDIT: forgot to add floating cities due to technology), but a more cyberpunk look and a mob world are too futuristic?

a Goblin Guide vs a Space Marine doesn't fit at all no matter how you slice it.

But an Ornithopter holding a huge hammer and/or a spear made of nightmares or a monkey staring down a Wurmcoil engine somehow fits. And that's not getting into %$#% that can be done in slower formats where creatures, equipments and enchantments more frequently interact with one another.

[Simto]

Ah my bad, I misread when the Lotr set was coming. I thought it was next year.

In my opinion, yes and yes. Both worlds, the new Kamigawa especially, look too futuristic, not to mention the new un-set being set in space/scifi and Warhammer 40k commander sets coming out. I think they're pushing very hard to expand on Magic's "brand" so it's not just fantasy / high fantasy.
The previous "high tech" planes have still all been very rooted in some sort of fantasy element. The new Kamigawa set looks full blown futuristic sci fi from what we've seen. I think it looks waaay too futuristic.
But that's just an opinion from a bitter, old and angry man who hates everything. So who cares anyway. Not like I have say in anything anyway.
The Brothers' War looks cool though.

[Arkmer]

I have to admit the art differences are really subtle; when I heard it was happening I was more upset than when I saw the art examples. It felt loosely Ravnican, specifically similar to Mission Briefing with magical manifestations of modern tech. I don't know how I feel about it yet, I'm just going to be very cautious once these sets start releasing.

It's not a Magic is doomed feeling, it's an uncertainty about all the changes they're going to push now. LotR coming to Modern is just the start. I just don't think I'm okay with crossovers in MtG.

[BeneTleilax]

My issue is that they will touch on them superficially. I've talked about the numbered-jokes problem with recent Creative before, and New Calan seems to be doing a lot of that. Ob Nixilis in pinstripes and those tacky fantasy-art pauldrons just seems like such a hollow combination of references, like an elevator pitch that never got expanded on.

I know early magic could be quite derivative as well, with a lot of TNG recycled into the Weatherlight and such, but that felt more sincere. I feel the writers at that time were just really into Trek, and so wanted to recreate their favorite parts of it. This, now, feels too outward-facing, as though the writers instead looked at the general notion of "noir", or "cyberpunk", and combined that with the general notion of "fantasy", without any particular love or understanding. That's why I most dread the Brothers War, because I don't want it redefined in that style.

[Simto]

My issue is that they will touch on them superficially. I've talked about the numbered-jokes problem with recent Creative before, and New Calan seems to be doing a lot of that. Ob Nixilis in pinstripes and those tacky fantasy-art pauldrons just seems like such a hollow combination of references, like an elevator pitch that never got expanded on.

I know early magic could be quite derivative as well, with a lot of TNG recycled into the Weatherlight and such, but that felt more sincere. I feel the writers at that time were just really into Trek, and so wanted to recreate their favorite parts of it. This, now, feels too outward-facing, as though the writers instead looked at the general notion of "noir", or "cyberpunk", and combined that with the general notion of "fantasy", without any particular love or understanding. That's why I most dread the Brothers War, because I don't want it redefined in that style.

I agree with pretty much everything you said. A lot of the art and design is very homogenised too, but I do think they still make some cool stuff and interesting settings from time to time.

I will add too, that the early stuff that was bordering on high tech stuff was done in a similar vein as maybe steampunk (or aetherpunk with Kaladesh which is my favourite). Where it's high tech and they have airships, phyrexian mechs, Urza has power plants beaming with energy and stuff like that, but it's still rooted in fantasy and not "futuristic high tech" if that makes sense.

[drmarkb]

Neon dynasty is an abomination. Why call it Kami, except so that they can reference old cards and think a bit less? Everyone who wanted more kami wanted swords, feudal vibes and ancient warriors and spirits. Nobody wanted neon anything.
I thought the crossover stuff was kept out of modern? Obviously not.
I expect the Brother's war to disappoint a fair few, but be met with a shrug from many who don't actually care that much, and please a few in equal measure.

I have no idea why they can't separate out this non mtg stuff, so that it is commander legal- if a play group allows- but not in non rotating formats unless done like Ikoria and its Godzilla cards.
Why upset people? It seems odd, as if the stuff is so broken it is essential in modern or legacy, I simply won't play. I am sure many others feel the same. If they are not at that level, then nobody will be running a Gandalf in competitive mtg. In fact I can see Legacy events, some if which are already proxy, simply saying 'these cards are not allowed' and the community banning them.

[EonAon]

I honestly dont understand all this hate. Yes Magic is a fantasy world based game but breaking out of the mold every now and then actually helps the game. Ok Neon Dynasty will show a plane thats actually evolved to a higher tech level than previously seen. Kaladesh was gearpunk/steampunk based and that was actually pretty interesting as a plane, so why is magitech off the plate?

I can understand it a bit more in the 40k dislike since as a entirely different IP and history can and probably be disconcerting if it was just mashed into the standard or modern meta but since it so far seems to be commander only I can live with it. LOTR at least thematically fits but where we are inserted into the story will be a make or break point.

On the brothers war I am ambivalent on since so far track records for artifact matters sets in MTG are kinda bad and Urza's saga was one of the points in the games history that almost broke the game.

[drmarkb]

Why not call it Neon Dynasty? Why have a Kamigawa reference at all? There is no upside as all you do is disappoint those who want an actual Kamigawa set. Make a new plane, upset nobody other than those who don't like the aesthetic.

[Simto]

I just think people are upset / hating it because Magic is "fantasy based" and these stuff are pushing it into the futuristic / modern realm. Yeah they have pushed the boundries a bit before, but like I said earlier, it's always been rooted in fantasy and not a futuristic/modern world. It's been like that for close to 30 years, so it's only normal that some people lash out a bit when it goes from almost zero to hundred in terms of tech in the worlds.
And as much as I love Blade Runner, Cyberpunk, sci fi and other futuristic stuff, then I would 100% rather have more feudal and ancient Japanese style stuff. More of the Mystical Archive style stuff.

I just wish Brothers' War would be a modern horizon 3 set hehe. I don't want cool, iconic, nostalgic cards to be standard draft chaff and %$#% rares/mythics. I'd like them to be strong cards.
But the last Dominaria set was great and a dip back in nostalgia, so I have hopes for them making another cool set that's an homage to stuff I saw on cards when I was a kid.

[BeneTleilax]

I honestly dont understand all this hate. Yes Magic is a fantasy world based game but breaking out of the mold every now and then actually helps the game.

My own issue with them is that they seem to be so reliant on existing reference. As opposed to making and developing their own worlds, they're using general pop-culture notions and going "oh, you know, that, it's like that thing". I find that a really hollow way to worldbuild, characterize, and plot. It's like hearing someone hum a tune just well enough to recognize.

[pierreb]

Why not call it Neon Dynasty? Why have a Kamigawa reference at all? There is no upside as all you do is disappoint those who want an actual Kamigawa set. Make a new plane, upset nobody other than those who don't like the aesthetic.

My guess is that we will have ninjas in the set. One of the first images of the set shows someone on a roof with a katana-like weapon. Looks like a ninja to me. I expect moonfolk, the rocky/spkiy goblins, Oni, etc. I can't say I was thrilled by the prospect of cyber-punk in MTG, but I'm willing to wait and see, maybe it will be done intelligently and mesh well with the usual MTG fantasy. I mean if you were able to accept Mirrodin and Kaladesh, then there is no reason for KND to be worse.

(For the same reason, I'm wait-and-see on the Brothers' War. I'm really afraid of a Urza PW card, which they would probably push power-level wise for obvious reasons. Do we want Urza, Lord High Artificer in PW form?)

I have more problem with Cappane as the only review images look dorky and silly. I also think mixing other IP in MTG is not good. LotR at least lives in the same fantasy corner, but W40K? ugh.

[Tzoulis]

I also think mixing other IP in MTG is not good. LotR at least lives in the same fantasy corner, but W40K? ugh.

The W40k look sure seems out of place in MtG:

Thran Quarry, Weatherlight, Urza's Armor, Belbe's Armor, Power Armor, Crosis's Attendant (reminds you of someone?), Predator, Flagship. Void

And many more like powerstones being Nuclear Reactors, the whole Thran and Yawgmoth's Phyrexians etc. or Urza's Legacy Project, which imply genetic splicing etc. or that the Sylex was essentially a nuclear bomb.

My own issue with them is that they seem to be so reliant on existing reference.

They do that because it's easier to resonate with people. It's also more evident in "theme" worlds. And if you want to get cynical, MtG has always been derivative of other larger or broader works and tropes, they just did their own take on them; see Mirrodin/New Phyrexia as a more hardcore sci-fi/science horror world, but with Myr and the Praetors etc.

Why not call it Neon Dynasty? Why have a Kamigawa reference at all? There is no upside as all you do is disappoint those who want an actual Kamigawa set. Make a new plane, upset nobody other than those who don't like the aesthetic.

Because canonically, the world has evolved for over 1300 years since when the original set's time, and because (Neon) Cyberpunk/Blade Runner aesthetic and prompt is VERY popular (the Neon part is a bit redundant since that's the aesthetic of Cyberpunk since its origins in the 1970's-80's). Tons of popular anime and movies/series have dwelt into this and a major conflict of the Cyberpunk genre is the Technology vs Environment and the ethics of an ever advancing technology. There's plenty of room to do a Traditions (IE Spirits/Kamis) vs High Tech (artifacts etc.) or Urban vs Rural divide (Hi- vs low- tech) and still play to the strengths of both the flavor of Kamigawa and the flavor of Cyberpunk.

[BeneTleilax]

They do that because it's easier to resonate with people. It's also more evident in "theme" worlds. And if you want to get cynical, MtG has always been derivative of other larger or broader works and tropes, they just did their own take on them; see Mirrodin/New Phyrexia as a more hardcore sci-fi/science horror world, but with Myr and the Praetors etc.

I explained the difference for me in an earlier post. Scars block took pains to illustrate the horrors of Phyrexian invasion, what it meant both at a planar and individual level. My issue would be if it went "Hey, you know alien invasions! Yeah, this like that. Please experience the correct reaction based on your prior experiences with other media". In other words, if it was BFZ. Resonance is so good at conveying ideas that it can be used a crutch for developing those ideas at all.

[drmarkb]

These worlds do not exist, they do not evolve organically. They evolve if someone sits down and says "how can we take X further, what is the next logical step". They are designed. I do not believe they sat down and asked "where does Kami go next". I believe instead they said "we want to do an anime/cyber/blade runner/Japanese world" and decided it would (a) be easier to staple it onto the pre-existing Kami stuff, because you can reference what is there and (b) it might appease those wanting a return to Kami. I do not believe that they sat down and said "how can we evolve the world of kami/where can we take it next"- there was never an interest in Kami II, just an interest in the style.
I believe they have seriously misjudged part their audience regarding (b)- the small number of people who wanted a Kami return wanted exactly NOT this. The majority who did not especially want a Kami return may not really care, although some within that will not want the new style. Overall a substantial chunk of the playerbase cares not one jot for aesthetics or story, fortunately for wotc.
There was a survey about how would you like to see XYZ a few cycles ago- and IIRC many of the options were about anime style/mech styles/sci-fi etc. No mention of Kami, but quite clearly this style of set was in mind,