[Official] State of Modern Thread (B&R 07/13/2020)

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Bearscape
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Post by Bearscape » 2 years ago

Albegas wrote:
2 years ago
tl;dr For those who are asking for bans, are you asking for them because a deck(s) are truly broken, or is it because the meta in your opinion does not appear to be evolving quickly enough to avoid stagnation? If the latter, about how long should a meta remain the same (i.e. T1 decks barely change or gain new contenders and T2 options only get a deck or 2 every 2 Standard sets) before bans are used to eliminate stagnation in the meta?
The meta is very diverse and interactive so probably nothing needs to be banned. On powerlevel, the only card I'd truly keep an eye on is Lurrus. But I also think companions are just one of the worst designs they have ever made, even after the errata. In the grandest scheme of magic (the metameta?) I believe every format where they are legal is worse off as long as they exist. Lurrus is of course on another level, actively inhibiting deck design options in formats where low mana cost is already the status quo, but none of the other playable companions have done anything interesting either. Kaheera, Yorion and Jegantha are only played when they are basically free anyways, and even then they limit deck design; you're not gonna try a singleton Brazen Borrower or Snapcaster Mage in your UWx deck because the stupid free 3/2 in your sideboard doesn't allow it.

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Ed06288
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Post by Ed06288 » 2 years ago

My problem isn't the metagame, which is technically very good, but rather that every deck plays the same cards. The recent Vegas tournament had 7 different decks in the top 8, but still had at least 20 copies of Urza's Saga and a lot of Lurrus. It's a lot like how legacy has varied metagames, but top 8's still have 32 copies of brainstorm. I'll continue to play in small events with low tier decks, but I'm hesitant to buy any of the new stuff.

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Post by motleyslayer » 2 years ago

While I agree that it seems like despite there being a lot of playable decks now, there are alot of the same cards going in decks, I don't know if I'd ban anything right now, not even Ragavan. yeah there are cards that are super strong, I don't know if any of them are ban worthy. Maybe I'm just fortunate that my local meta is pretty diverse but I like how the strong cards from MH2 can still enable different cores

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Simto
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Post by Simto » 2 years ago

Modern would be boring if you couldn't use strong cards

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Ed06288
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Post by Ed06288 » 2 years ago

I see Ragavan and Urzas Saga as being significantly better than Deathrite Shaman and Field of the Dead respectively. It'll probably take public opinion some time before it turns against these cards though, maybe a year or 2.

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cfusionpm
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Post by cfusionpm » 2 years ago

Anyone playing the Banned Gauntlet on MTGO right now? So far, I am getting roflstomped by Eldrazi and Hogaak with Twin. The deck was built with 0 GY hate and absolutely cannot kill multiple large creatures. Electrolyze is still an unplayable card, and for some reason, their list includes TWO copies each of Twisted Image and Dispel, in the main deck! Maybe they're just trying to make it look bad. :rofl:

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Albegas
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Post by Albegas » 2 years ago

I haven't looked at the gauntlet decks in detail, but I have to assume that WotC just found a deck list from when each deck was banned, slightly tweaked it, and used that for the gauntlet. If you think about it, taking an older deck prior to banning cards and updating it to accommodating it to deal with later/modern decks is an oxymoron since the the optimized version no longer represents the version of the deck that was banned, and I sincerely doubt anyone at WotC has the time to extensively test decks before releasing them in a temporary gauntlet format

On the chance that people use the gauntlet to draw conclusions on what can/can't come off Modern's ban list, you just can't. Formats like that introduce too many variables to draw reasonable conclusions as to what's safe to unban and what's not. Best let the formats just be fun outlets to break monotony and nothing else

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cfusionpm
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Post by cfusionpm » 2 years ago

I'm sure it's just for a lark, but it was frustrating to be reminded how much more powerful Modern has become in the last several years. Having lost handily with Twin twice (0-3, then a 1-2) it really put me a sour mood. I could only laugh at what people still consider this unbeatable behemoth being utterly dumpstered by every other deck except that Naya joke.

Luckily I cleansed my pallet with several satisfying wins with MonkeTide in the Practice room queue.

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Post by Ed06288 » 2 years ago

Players of "Banned Modern" claim the format would be pretty good if Eldrazi were removed, and I'm assuming Hogaak and Oko are pretty overpowered too. Birthing pod and Splinter Twin are regarded as being pretty benign. All anecdotal of course.

I came in here to ask about Sea Gate Stormcaller. In order to copy the spell, does the spell have to be on the stack or just played previously in the same turn? I'm assuming the later. Card occasionally sees play in 4 color death shadow, maybe I'll pick up some.

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Post by stille_nacht » 2 years ago

To be fair, twin wouldn't run ... whatever is going on there lol. It would have Rags and FoN and whatnot.

What is with that banned gauntlet though? It's really hard for me to puzzle out to be honest. Like who is going to pick 4 color Bant Charm when you can literally be playing Hogaak, Eldrazi, and Summer bloom. Why is literally a stock 2017 affinity list being used as the mox opal deck? So confusing.

By the way, from your experience would Hogaak still dominate this meta? Like against solitude and whatnot? I'm having a hard time evaluating banned cards post MH2, not that it was easy before. Second sunrise literally doesn't even seem good anymore to me for example lol.

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Albegas
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Post by Albegas » 2 years ago

Brian Kibler basically sealed Second Sunrise when he wrote F6 on a piece of paper in a live tournament on camera, got a hot dog, talked with some friends and came back to find his eggs opponent still playing out his turn. It's not even about it being good. The decks using it are too good at screwing up tournament time tables.

As for Hogaak, I can see people thinking it's worse now that Looting and Bridge are both banned to the point where it can come back. However, I still believe that on a fundamental level, Combo decks need to struggle to come back if the combo is disrupted to be balanced. Dying from a combo on T4 is fine, but if I disrupt that combo before then, that deck should seriously struggle to reassemble that combo to win. Dredge style decks have always been too good at bouncing back after what should be crippling throwbacks. Granted, Dredge decks are just about dead, but I don't know what a "healthy" Dredge deck looks like in Modern. It just always seems to be T3 fun or broken T1 horror. Best let Hogaak lie and let Combo players gravitate towards other combo decks that are fragile but still get results

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Post by stille_nacht » 2 years ago

I mean dredge seemed like a fine t1 deck for a long time post-creeping chill IIRC. It just needs to be maybe race-able by aggro I think, while naturally tending to beat control and midrange. For example it's not good right now because its getting raced succesfully by tempo (Murktide) not just aggro (Hammer).

I'm wondering specifically for Hogaak if Solitude means that it will be more manageable or not. On the other hand, its big turns also maybe involving vengevines is problematic, probably too much but I've overestimated things before..

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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 2 years ago

stille_nacht wrote:
2 years ago
I mean dredge seemed like a fine t1 deck for a long time post-creeping chill IIRC. It just needs to be maybe race-able by aggro I think, while naturally tending to beat control and midrange. For example it's not good right now because its getting raced succesfully by tempo (Murktide) not just aggro (Hammer).

I'm wondering specifically for Hogaak if Solitude means that it will be more manageable or not. On the other hand, its big turns also maybe involving vengevines is problematic, probably too much but I've overestimated things before..
I play Modern a lot. I do switch decks just for fun quite often, except when I identify a Tier 0 strategy. I played Hogaak for almost it's whole Modern legality.

That being said, it is too easy to sacrifice Hogaak to Carrion Feeder or just play another one. Solitude is not enough to contain Hogaak, although I will certainly admit that the Modern meta is MUCH, MUCH stronger since MH2. There are so many cards on the banned list that could come back, but we see that WotC has no problem printing much stronger cards than cards that are banned, but since they are "mixing" up the meta occasionally, they don't see a need to go back the the "old days." I've been watching some SCG videos of Modern back in the days and every single deck I play right now would absolutely %$#% on some of the keeps I've seen people at 8-1, 11-2, and other records, keep. :rofl:
Last edited by FoodChainGoblins 2 years ago, edited 1 time in total.
Standard - Will pick up what's good when paper starts
Pre Modern - Do not own anymore
Pioneer - DEAD
Modern - Jund Sacrifice, Amulet, Elementals, Trollementals, BR Asmo/Goryo's, Yawmoth Chord
Legacy - No more cards, will rebuy Sneak Show when I can
Limited - Will start when paper starts
Commander - Nope

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Post by motleyslayer » 2 years ago

I feel like this is the first time I've switched decks so much in a while, probably because there are a few strong decks that I enjoy. A few Lurrus piles like GDS and Mardu (Rakdos splash white really), Living End and Murktide (despite not being able to figure out how to do well with Murktide yet).

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drmarkb
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Post by drmarkb » 2 years ago

Modern for me feels bad. I have seen removal get better in Legacy through Abrupt Decay to Brazen Borrower to Prismatic Ending. Critters and walkers have powered up in that time stupidly, nothing else has and the net result has been to push combo, critter aggro and tempo whilst control and prison have been left largely in the dust, with the odd archetype representing them in a format with 50. Modern feels like it has irrevocably changed in different ways, it is a different format after all, but it has a similar feeling of 'forced interaction' and 'modern horizons block constructed' that bores me rigid because all the lovely different types of permanent now read ' land ' and 'non land'. Every deck has stupidly good flexible removal for everything apart from maybe land, though vindicate exists now I guess for land. The critters have powered up too, but lock pieces that say 'no' or 'not for 5 turns' have not, they even stupidly banned Lattice for non power reasons.

I just want some cards that say 'no' that my opponent cannot instantly remove efficiently. I do not mind them being able to remove anything, o ring is fine, I object to doing it permanently and efficiently. Players with their 'I don't want to have a card stuck in my hand' can go and do one, it is a healthy part if mtg to have a card stuck in hand due to an opponent's action. Cards that loot dead cards away are ideal for this.
Every format from Pioneer to Legacy is going to end up in 3 years with very few to one control deck, and half of the decks appearing as 'control' will be combo decks in disguise, which will get banned in Pioneer, of course if they are too good. I do not want just one UWx control list, even if it is a good one.
I want to see control viable in all the colours, and yes, by 'control' I mean prisons.

Interaction is good, I get that, but in efficient formats cards that efficiently remove like Prismatic Ending make me want to not play and not spend. Interaction in every game of the same sort is dull as dishwater. The same saga, companion, removal stuff every match feels too 'samey.' Sometimes cards need to be not interacted with, whether that be Cavern of Souls or Abrupt Decay being uncounterable, or a linear Red deck keeling over because of Leyline of Sanctity, or cards like Paladin Class making it harder to interact on enemy turns. Cards like Curse of Silence are ideal 'no' cards but are *always* underpowered, and having to exist in environments where removal is Force of Vigor, Prismatic Ending etc.

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Albegas
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Post by Albegas » 2 years ago

I'm actually really confused by this post. If I'm understanding this right, you think that prison pieces are too weak, but spot removal is too strong, and the solution is to have threats that can't be answered in a format almost historically dominated by decks that were too hard to answer before being banned? If I'm misunderstanding the post, please feel free correct me because I really am more confused than anything else.

I did at least gather that you disagree that UW is the de facto control combination, and I agree that it's an issue. If there were some debate on a 3rd color that should be splashed, I'd be fine with it, but the fact that red auto-wins for no other reason than a Jeskai triome bothers me, especially since red splashes are almost nonexistent. I'd love to see some Ux control (or non-W) pieces that actually give UW Teferi cards a run for their money and open up avenues for more control decks

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Post by drmarkb » 2 years ago

Slight misunderstanding. I don't want threats that can't be answered, I want permanent hate pieces that are harder to answer. Not impossible to answer, just harder. The stronger you make removal, the harder it is to land 'no' cards that stick like Chalice. Or Meddling Mage effects. Without those cards control will always be UWx, never big Red or Mono Black or the like. I used examples that covered both threats and answered to try and show how cards that are difficult to interact with are not always bad.
Historically, one issue in modern has always been homogenisation, and OP walkers like Oko lead us to that. There was no answer to OP walkers, by the time you kill them they generate value. The other issue- deck that ignore each other- well Wotc fixed non interaction by printing better removal, Prismatic Ending, vindicate etc. I
So by doing that they will eventually make the format control v aggro vs UWx du jour.
You can see the sane effect in Legacy, which is further down the line, as control slips further down the list percent wise and only pops up when combo is suppressed by tempo.

As pools expand combo naturally gets better, aggro gets better. Control then finds it harder.

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Albegas
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Post by Albegas » 2 years ago

Ok, your stance is definitely a lot clearer now. I don't agree that stax/prison pieces deserve the same protection that counter-proof creatures have or counter-proof spells have precisely because they directly influence the game for multiple turns and often come in the form of non-creature artifacts and enchantments, both of which are difficult to answer game 1. That being said, I wouldn't be against something like a variant of Boseiju, Who Shelters All for noncreature artifacts or enchantments that can make prison elements harder to answer without being too difficult to answer unto itself and/or have some sort of drawback that punishes playing a large number of uninteractive prison style cards. I'm also not against raising the general power level of prison pieces. I don't want to see anything more broken than Blood Moon for lands, but I'd be interested to see more Tax pieces that can heavily influence a game without straight-up locking a player out of the game. I don't know what that looks like off-hand, but it would hopefully be something that isn't heavily W to incentivize someone to play something that isn't UW

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Post by drmarkb » 2 years ago

I think we are closer in opinion than might be first realised. I think ward 3 or so is the answer to protecting prison pieces in modern. Not full hexproof, but enough to keep them safe for a time. I also like hexproof from sorcery, or heatproof from instant, so that some decks struggle whilst others gave no issues removing it. Ward is a strong but not unbeatable keyword, so they can be answered, but in time.
Biseiju variants have been very much on my list of wants, again punishing decks relying on counters but rewarding flexible decks.
Blood Moon should be about the bar, and as long as t1 moon is impossible, those sort of cards could do it. I also like smokestack, it can lock someone out a game with 3 ball and crucible but only after a large number of turns. That to me is OK, a lock after many turns where scooping is obvious. Most cards like moon are single card combos, which fir me us worse than hard lock 3 card combos.

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Post by Simto » 2 years ago

drmarkb wrote:
2 years ago
they even stupidly banned Lattice for non power reasons.
I'm still sad about that....

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Post by iTaLenTZ » 2 years ago

Magic Aids latest post summarizes the state of Modern right now spot on. You pile up the most expensive cards and call it a deck and perform well with it. Modern Horizons has done more harm than good IMO. The powercreep is off the scale. Deckbuilding for synergies has never felt less relevant when every spell on its own carries so much power.

btw Ragavan being played in Humans is a forecast to an upcoming ban eventually. It has happened with every card that is too widely played even in the decks they don't belong in just because of their shear power.

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Post by Ed06288 » 2 years ago

drmarkb has a decent point. Prismatic ending even hits expedition map, amulet of vigor and shriekhorn. These are supposed to be decks that are slower but harder to interact with. Lantern control also got a lot harder to play.

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Post by drmarkb » 2 years ago

The worst thing about PE is it will never be banned, but should not have been made. The effect is much worse in Legacy than Modern, ditto Monkey. It would not have been hard to retool PE so that it could not remove colorless cards, which would have meant some things escape its clutches and it can be genuinely dead. It has locked control into UWx tap out forever.

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Post by Simto » 2 years ago

Bit of a sidenote, but those new full art Kamigawa basic lands make me want to play again no matter the meta. Holy %$#% they look amazing.
The weeb in me wants 30 of each hehe.

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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 2 years ago

Simto wrote:
2 years ago
Bit of a sidenote, but those new full art Kamigawa basic lands make me want to play again no matter the meta. Holy %$#% they look amazing.
The weeb in me wants 30 of each hehe.
They do look ... so cool. But I think at this point, WotC is getting too crazy on lands. They've clearly identified lands as something that players love to customize, but when everything is special, "nothing is special" anymore. Still ... these lands are GAS and I'm not even a weeb → barely know what that means, lol.
Standard - Will pick up what's good when paper starts
Pre Modern - Do not own anymore
Pioneer - DEAD
Modern - Jund Sacrifice, Amulet, Elementals, Trollementals, BR Asmo/Goryo's, Yawmoth Chord
Legacy - No more cards, will rebuy Sneak Show when I can
Limited - Will start when paper starts
Commander - Nope

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