[Official] State of Modern Thread (B&R 07/13/2020)

User avatar
FoodChainGoblins
Level 47
Posts: 900
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Riverside

Post by FoodChainGoblins » 2 years ago

Is there a deck that slaughters BR Lurrus variants? Essentially 4 DRC, 4 Monkey, and then a ton of 1/2 drops? I was running Elementals, but lost to it three times in a row. Overall, I think I'm still high, but is there anything that does even better?

I'm strongly considering 4 Engineered Explosives main and Leyline of Sanctity SB.
Standard - Will pick up what's good when paper starts
Pre Modern - Do not own anymore
Pioneer - DEAD
Modern - Jund Sacrifice, Amulet, Elementals, Trollementals, BR Asmo/Goryo's, Yawmoth Chord
Legacy - No more cards, will rebuy Sneak Show when I can
Limited - Will start when paper starts
Commander - Nope

User avatar
EonAon
Posts: 274
Joined: 3 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by EonAon » 2 years ago

MTG goldfish has a aggregate data for Elves of the collected company variety. A couple of the more recent techie cards it gets is Realmwalker and Elvish Warmaster. One of the newest toys it might try and play is Rite of Harmony. Over all the higher tiered tribal decks at the moment is goblins in BRG, and 4 color humans. Overall tribal strategy has taken a huge beating by more efficient cards being grouped together in other colors.

User avatar
pierreb
Posts: 280
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Up North

Post by pierreb » 2 years ago

FoodChainGoblins wrote:
2 years ago
Is there a deck that slaughters BR Lurrus variants? Essentially 4 DRC, 4 Monkey, and then a ton of 1/2 drops?
Yes, Wizards Ban is pretty good against it. Monkey was a mistake and only still living because:
  • Modern is not much played in paper due to COVID
  • Modern is not in Arena
  • A staple mythic in a high priced set is a Hasbro wet dream
And, no, I don't buy the argument that it encourages interaction. Any card that is not a reactive spell or prison piece encourages interaction. But monkey is closer to a combo card that needs an immediate answer than a true permanent you have a few turns to answer. You always need turn-1 answers for the monkey and as FCG pointed out, you end-up skewing your maindeck to ridiculous level to avoid both the CA and mana advantage on a 1-drop. DRC at least takes many turns to embody its effect: reducing your life total to zero. Monkey gives you cards and mana, which is an accumulating effect.

User avatar
Simto
Posts: 396
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by Simto » 2 years ago

I watched a bit of the World Championship stream and standard looks like a boring game of limited compared to Modern. I hope we get to see some bigger modern tournaments again some time. Or some other tournament not hosted by Wizards themselves. Their streams are an absolute chore to watch.

User avatar
motleyslayer
Posts: 1127
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him
Contact:

Post by motleyslayer » 2 years ago

I know Face to Face games up here in Canada is making the return of their open series with a bunch of double open weekends, first one is end of the month in Toronto. I can't wait for that type of atmosphere again

User avatar
cfusionpm
With that on the stack...
Posts: 1182
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: California, USA
Contact:

Post by cfusionpm » 2 years ago

As someone who has been exclusively playing UR MonkeTide in paper and online for months, Monkey is fine. He is killed or roadblocked by many decks and is frequently completely sided out against any deck playing any meaningful number of creatures. It's a great card, but not broken by any means. Arguably, it's not even the best creature in that deck, much less the format as a whole.

I wish it weren't as expensive so more people could see first hand. They always remember the one game they saw, where a T1 Monke spirals out of control, but never see the dozens where it dies immediately or can't attack turn after turn because of blockers.

User avatar
FoodChainGoblins
Level 47
Posts: 900
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Riverside

Post by FoodChainGoblins » 2 years ago

It may or may not be fine in Modern, but I have heard of those clamoring for Monkey's ban, DRC's ban, or Daze's ban in Legacy.
Standard - Will pick up what's good when paper starts
Pre Modern - Do not own anymore
Pioneer - DEAD
Modern - Jund Sacrifice, Amulet, Elementals, Trollementals, BR Asmo/Goryo's, Yawmoth Chord
Legacy - No more cards, will rebuy Sneak Show when I can
Limited - Will start when paper starts
Commander - Nope

User avatar
cfusionpm
With that on the stack...
Posts: 1182
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: California, USA
Contact:

Post by cfusionpm » 2 years ago

I mean, whether something is OK or not in one format is wholly irrelevant to another. Especially when Modern is explicitly hostile to creatures, and most resolved creatures can do whatever they want in Legacy.

Sounds like it'd be nuts in a format ruled by efficient cantrips and free counters, while being relatively light on creature removal.

User avatar
drmarkb
Posts: 634
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by drmarkb » 2 years ago

It is nuts in Legacy, trust me.
You can't run as much anti critter stuff in Legacy, and the resources it nicks snowball extremely quickly.
Daze + Monkey + force pretty much means it does so much against non synergy decks like e.g. enchantress or cloudpost. So outside of those sort of niche decks, monkey gets value off their library most of the time.
Not as big a problem in Modern. That said, last two times it got dropped against me t1 I lost convincingly, unable to draw removal as they ramped along.. Then again that was with a weak-ish deck not especially well constructed.

User avatar
motleyslayer
Posts: 1127
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him
Contact:

Post by motleyslayer » 2 years ago

so I've been on toying with Grixis shadow list and living end for a bit (didn't have a set of Ragavan so ran shadows instead). That list felt okay and I had mixed results with it. But picked up the monkeys I needed to finish my set on the weekend but decided to give Grixis a break and build Murktide, since I decided to give the Izzet delver-less delver list a try in legacy.

I noticed that this list won the Saturday open of the Face to Face Open weekend

.

The article they posted on their website for the weekend said it had a good hammer and murktide matchup but I dunno how I feel about the deck. I think I'm at the point where I wanna try a few more decks

User avatar
The Fluff
Le fou, c'est moi
Posts: 2398
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted
Location: Gradius Home World
Contact:

Post by The Fluff » 2 years ago

modern has been very quiet in my country for awhile now... hopefully, activity picks up again by Christmas or early next year.
Image
AnimEVO 2020 - EFZ Tournament (english commentary) // Clearing 4 domain with Qiqi
want to play a uw control deck in modern, but don't have Jace or snapcaster? please come visit us at the Emeria thread

User avatar
Ed06288
Posts: 211
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by Ed06288 » 2 years ago

FoodChainGoblins wrote:
2 years ago
Is there a deck that slaughters BR Lurrus variants? Essentially 4 DRC, 4 Monkey, and then a ton of 1/2 drops? I was running Elementals, but lost to it three times in a row. Overall, I think I'm still high, but is there anything that does even better?
I'm 1 and 4 against B/R Lurrus decks. Some of those losses were with junky decks admittedly, like Blue Tron and Titanshift. But the deck can power out quick Kroxas via DRC. And companion Lurrus makes it hard to win the long game. I'm leaning towards banning Lurrus now. Monkey i'm okay with for now.

Shmanka
Posts: 11
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by Shmanka » 2 years ago

Played in a Local 1k with 60 participants and the Calgary F2F with 127 participants, the top 8 is being submitted as I am typing this.

The local 1k had a pretty diverse metagame, played against a different deck each round, all pretty fun and interactive matches.

The F2F was something completely different and horrendous, Lurrus was played against me in every match. Approximately 90% of the top tables after round 3 were companion decks. Only exceptions were RUG Rhino, Hammer with Expensive Equipment, UR Murktide, URw Murktide, and myself also on URw Murktide. Yorion 4 Color Piles and Hammer Time were the most popular decks by my count. Burn had an impressive showing as well.

If I were in the position of power, based off of my experience through online grinding and all the results I've come across mixed in with my emotion just simply watching some games I would make the following changes to Modern:

Ban - Sigarda's Aid & All companions
Unban - None at this time

Hammer Time is out of control, I had a player read all my cards in a URw Murktide deck and proceed to stomp me turn 3 on a mull to five. The deck is beyond insane. If Blazing Shoal is banned and requires more cards to execute kills, I have no idea why this is still legal. The second Tournament is tomorrow, I am unsure if I will play in the main event, but I might play in some side events with a different deck to have fun.

User avatar
motleyslayer
Posts: 1127
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him
Contact:

Post by motleyslayer » 2 years ago

I feel that the 4c Yorion piles have gotten incredibly popular lately.

I haven't looked into decks from the Face event yet but their Montreal weekend is coming up next weekend too I think

User avatar
Tzoulis
Posts: 323
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by Tzoulis » 2 years ago

Shmanka wrote:
2 years ago
If I were in the position of power, based off of my experience through online grinding and all the results I've come across mixed in with my emotion just simply watching some games I would make the following changes to Modern:

Ban - Sigarda's Aid & All companions
Unban - None at this time
JFC, nothing needs to be banned just because one of your local events had a huge showing for one deck. By that metric, based on my yesterday's local event Burn and Fish should be banned.
Shmanka wrote:
2 years ago
Hammer Time is out of control, I had a player read all my cards in a URw Murktide deck and proceed to stomp me turn 3 on a mull to five. The deck is beyond insane. If Blazing Shoal is banned and requires more cards to execute kills, I have no idea why this is still legal. The second Tournament is tomorrow, I am unsure if I will play in the main event, but I might play in some side events with a different deck to have fun.
Combo deck wins after mulling, news at 11. Also, Hammer is so insane that that the top 8 in Vegas had none, and the final was a blast from the past (the whole Top 8 really) with Midrange vs Infect.

User avatar
motleyslayer
Posts: 1127
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him
Contact:

Post by motleyslayer » 2 years ago

I'm of the opinion nothing should be banned right now. I feel there's a few decks that are really good, with several other good options. Just nothing really stands out as needing a ban to me

User avatar
Ed06288
Posts: 211
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by Ed06288 » 2 years ago

Personally I would like to see Lurrus, Urzas Saga, and Ragavan gone within a year and a half or so.

Shmanka
Posts: 11
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by Shmanka » 2 years ago

Tzoulis wrote:
2 years ago
Shmanka wrote:
2 years ago
If I were in the position of power, based off of my experience through online grinding and all the results I've come across mixed in with my emotion just simply watching some games I would make the following changes to Modern:

Ban - Sigarda's Aid & All companions
Unban - None at this time
JFC, nothing needs to be banned just because one of your local events had a huge showing for one deck. By that metric, based on my yesterday's local event Burn and Fish should be banned.
It's not a metric, its my opinion. Just for the record, I've predicted nearly 80% of bans on MTGSalvation for over 10 years.

You cannot simply tell me Sigarda's Aid will live in this format forever. It's Blazing Shoal with actual zero investment, and if the creature dies to removal, the threat continuously looms. Just tell me simply, how you think that from any design perspective, that there will never not be another Hammer printed as a common or uncommon in any limited format at any point in time?

Stop putting words in my mouth, and read my post, and think about what I'm typing instead of hastily responding.
Tzoulis wrote:
2 years ago
Shmanka wrote:
2 years ago
Hammer Time is out of control, I had a player read all my cards in a URw Murktide deck and proceed to stomp me turn 3 on a mull to five. The deck is beyond insane. If Blazing Shoal is banned and requires more cards to execute kills, I have no idea why this is still legal. The second Tournament is tomorrow, I am unsure if I will play in the main event, but I might play in some side events with a different deck to have fun.
Combo deck wins after mulling, news at 11. Also, Hammer is so insane that that the top 8 in Vegas had none, and the final was a blast from the past (the whole Top 8 really) with Midrange vs Infect.
Who cares about a sole Top 8? What about top 64? What about metagame win percentages? What about prevalence of online vs this paper event? This is a moot argument, and a pretty pathetic one to say the very least.

Who cares if the top 8 was "diverse" if the top 64 was 70% Hammer Time? We don't have the actual data of this event that matters, and your perception of what's important is ignorance at its finest.

User avatar
Tzoulis
Posts: 323
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by Tzoulis » 2 years ago

Shmanka wrote:
2 years ago
I've predicted nearly 80% of bans on MTGSalvation for over 10 years.
And I've predicted 90%.
Shmanka wrote:
2 years ago
It's not a metric, its my opinion
Your opinion is based on some kind of metric, which judging by the post you quoted is prevalence in your local meta.
Shmanka wrote:
2 years ago
You cannot simply tell me Sigarda's Aid will live in this format forever.
And you can't tell it'll be banned.
Shmanka wrote:
2 years ago
It's Blazing Shoal with actual zero investment, and if the creature dies to removal, the threat continuously looms
Aside from the fact that itself can be removed and the flash/equip component fizzles, the creature can be remove, and you know, it isn't free. They either need a Paladin or 8 mana to equip the hammer. It's a combo/aggro deck, play accordingly. Were you asking for bans back when Modern Affinity (of 2015-2018) could drew a ravager or plating and killed you?
Shmanka wrote:
2 years ago
Just tell me simply, how you think that from any design perspective, that there will never not be another Hammer printed as a common or uncommon in any limited format at any point in time?
When and IF (big if) they do that, we can start discussing it. Hell the only "new" equipment - other than Hammer - that made it into the deck is Nettlecyst, and it's played in all versions.
Shmanka wrote:
2 years ago
Who cares about a sole Top 8? What about top 64? What about metagame win percentages? What about prevalence of online vs this paper event? This is a moot argument, and a pretty pathetic one to say the very least.

Who cares if the top 8 was "diverse" if the top 64 was 70% Hammer Time? We don't have the actual data of this event that matters, and your perception of what's important is ignorance at its finest.
It's not just one top8, it's also other large paper events of 200~ people, where the top 8 and Top 32 is just as diverse. They all matter because it shows how inbred the online meta is. Hammer is one of the best decks in the format, it isn't Tier 0, and if it was "70% of the top 64" and it didn't convert ANY to the top 8, it either means tha all hammer players got really unlucky or, you know, the deck can be hated out. As it has happened in plenty of Challenges - the last two being a major example of that.

We have data from other paper events, and we have large amounts of data on the fields of some of the last challenges. They show a cyclical meta (as it is the case in healthy metas) and plenty of continuous innovation for the past months,

Your personal grievances are not important. I'm not the ignorant one here.

EDIT: Here's the top 32 for Vegas

User avatar
Simto
Posts: 396
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by Simto » 2 years ago

I predicted 95% of the bans and my dad can beat up your dad.
Calm down lads, always so fiery with the replies.

User avatar
Ed06288
Posts: 211
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by Ed06288 » 2 years ago

I'm glad people are starting to get more outspoken because I felt too many problems from modern horizons 2 were being glossed over.

As for Ragavan, the card ramps mana, generates card advantage, applies early pressure, and is also a relevant top deck. It has a lot of the same problems that deathrite shaman did. Its a genericly good 1 drop that does it all.

As for hammer time, I'd rather they remove Urza's saga than Sigardas Aid.

User avatar
Bearscape
Posts: 233
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by Bearscape » 2 years ago

Im just really tired of companions. The 3 mana tax did not do enough to stop them from being overly dominant. Lurrus is the one I think should REALLY go but honestly I'd just prefer to see the mechanic get undone entirely

Otherwise I think modern is great, Ragavan and Saga are powerful but ok in my book

User avatar
FoodChainGoblins
Level 47
Posts: 900
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Riverside

Post by FoodChainGoblins » 2 years ago

Simto wrote:
2 years ago
I predicted 95% of the bans and my dad can beat up your dad.
Calm down lads, always so fiery with the replies.
Your dad can definitely beat up my dad, lol. :rofl:

Here's all of the cards I can identify as being bannable at this point - Ragavan, Urza's Saga, Mishra's Bauble, Lurrus, the Dream Den, Solitude, Fury, and Shardless Agent. Other than that, I don't really see an argument. Possibly something else to finally kill Amulet, but since that is one of the main decks I play, PLEAAASE NO. :)
Standard - Will pick up what's good when paper starts
Pre Modern - Do not own anymore
Pioneer - DEAD
Modern - Jund Sacrifice, Amulet, Elementals, Trollementals, BR Asmo/Goryo's, Yawmoth Chord
Legacy - No more cards, will rebuy Sneak Show when I can
Limited - Will start when paper starts
Commander - Nope

User avatar
Albegas
Posts: 160
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by Albegas » 2 years ago

I'm gearing up to get back into competitive play, so I can't comment on ban potential based on personal experience, though challenges seem to indicate that nothing is consistently dominant, so I'm inclined to avoid shaking the boat. I can understand if someone disagrees with this, and I lack the recent experience to really defend my point.

One point I'm curious about is how often the meta needs a real shakeup. I have noticed that the current meta is generally dominated by decks that flourished from MH2 and/or decks that can efficiently utilize a Companion. While the current meta is pretty diverse in terms of "what strategy can I bring to a tourney and reasonably expect to win", it's pretty clear that most of the T1 decks fall into one of those two categories I mentioned, which is a reasonable turn off for a lot of people.

On the other hand, for some players, including myself, I think this represents a level of stability that we've been requesting for a while now. Just about every playstyle pillar has a strong contender you can invest in, and no single deck is consistently taking every major tournament. I'm personally content in investing in 1-2 decks and riding them until MH3 comes around, and at that point WotC can devote the resources to find a new pool of decks to bring to the forefront to shake up the meta. I'd play Standard if I wanted fast shifts in the meta, and I'd play Pioneer (is that a real format still? :p ) if I wanted a format to use my recently cycled out Standard cards. I like Modern as a format where I can buy into a deck, ride it for 2-3 years, and then hopefully either give it a major update or salvage it to play something new and get strong results without replacing 90% of the deck.

tl;dr For those who are asking for bans, are you asking for them because a deck(s) are truly broken, or is it because the meta in your opinion does not appear to be evolving quickly enough to avoid stagnation? If the latter, about how long should a meta remain the same (i.e. T1 decks barely change or gain new contenders and T2 options only get a deck or 2 every 2 Standard sets) before bans are used to eliminate stagnation in the meta?

User avatar
AvalonAurora
Posts: 182
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: they / them

Post by AvalonAurora » 2 years ago

Albegas wrote:
2 years ago
tl;dr For those who are asking for bans, are you asking for them because a deck(s) are truly broken, or is it because the meta in your opinion does not appear to be evolving quickly enough to avoid stagnation? If the latter, about how long should a meta remain the same (i.e. T1 decks barely change or gain new contenders and T2 options only get a deck or 2 every 2 Standard sets) before bans are used to eliminate stagnation in the meta?
I'm not asking for bans currently, partly because I'm not familiar enough with the current format metagame to feel justified figuring out if any are needed and of what, but if I were to clamor for bans, stagnation alone wouldn't be the problem. I see metagame stagnation as fine, as long as T1 decks and T2 decks are both relatively diverse both in numbers of decks and in archetypes (control, combo, aggro, etc.) of decks. And needing more deck diversity isn't always able to be solved by bans, sometimes it needs printing more cards.

Optimally there should be:

At least 3 decks that count as tier one, including one of each of mostly typical 'aggro' (things like red deck wins in many standard environments, mostly small creatures in a deck that tries to win quickly with damage), mostly typical 'combo' (a limited number of cards, usually 2, that try to be used at the same time to win out of nowhere suddenly when the opponent doesn't have cards like removal, counterspells, or discard ready to stop it, but the strategy is otherwise relatively delicate and focused on either surviving to get the combo out and/or trying to quickly dig up the combo cards and/or protect them), and mostly typical 'control' (draw, discard/counterspells, possibly removal, small number of late game potent finishers that are a single-card win condition, not a combo). Preferably there would be more T1 decks, including potentially other decks that fit into the above but use different cards/colors/etc. but also potentially other archetypes, like ramp, midrange, tempo, or odd variants of the standard three archetypes, like prison/tax style control, or burn decks in the aggro category.

For tier 2, I'd want there to be more different decks that tier 1, but if tier 1 is heavily populated with roughly even decks, it is fine if T2 is similar size or even potentially smaller. T2 would need to have the standard 3 archetypes like T1, and within the domain of T1 and T2 combined, there should be the all of the following existing as well: burn, discard, ramp, mill, midrange, tempo, tribal, graveyard, mono-color decks of each color (which can be one of the other non-color related things listed here at the same time, like tribal or mill), at least two different 2 color decks (including at least two different ones that don't share colors at all with each-other, this can also be one of the different types listed here not related to color stuff like tempo or ramp), at least two different three color decks (including at least two different ones that only share one color with each-other, this can also be one of the different types listed here not related to color stuff like tribal or midrange), and at least 2 noticeably different budget decks that are still T1/T2 properly in their budget form (not compromising on certain cards for less expensive 'almost as good' stuff, this can overlap with other categories of course).

In such a meta, I probably wouldn't care if things were stale for a long time, especially if it kept the meta from losing key archetypes and such.

I don't we have ever had a meta that good though in modern's existence so far.

Note that I'm considering T1 and T2 definitions here not so much by play rates, but by win percentages, although they still need a decent enough play rate to have well known win rates against all other T1 and T2 decks. T1 decks would be decks that overall win 50/50 against the rest of the T1 meta, and slightly better than that against non T1 meta, but less extreme advantage against the entire T2 meta than the rest of the meta with casual decks and such. The T2 decks would be not quite that good as T1, but still competitive enough to theoretically have decent odds of making Top 8's in large tournaments and stuff without excessive luck, being close to T1 but not quite there, perhaps due to having some abnormally bad matchups in against certain other T2 decks or being abnormally easy to sideboard against relatively speaking to other T2 decks and especially compared to T1 decks. A popular deck that doesn't actually have that good win rates when both players are high skill the opponent is playing a high tier deck doesn't count even if it has relatively high metagame percentages (perhaps due to easily defeating low-skilled players quickly but being bad against high skill ones due to relatively easy ways to disrupt it even with non-control decks and common sideboard options, or due to being a tribal deck that is really popular for some reason not related to gameplay).

Post Reply Previous topicNext topic

Return to “Modern”