[Official] State of Modern Thread (B&R 07/13/2020)

[iTaLenTZ]

It didn't immediately lose me the game, but it put me behind by, yea, one resolved Ancestral Vision, but without me having had any opportunity to interact with it. A few turns later, he was able to force through a Kroxa because he had 6 cards in hand and I had 3. The game had gone completely evenly, except for Lurrus.

I can't remember where but Maro's reaction a few days ago regarding the Companion outcry was: "Its not like Lurrus is Ancestral Recall" LOL

[idSurge]

Mind boggling that people think its just hype, and that the card type is acceptable at all.

[cfusionpm]

Jim Davis had a good take on Companions in that, rather than existing outside the game as a bonus extra card, at the beginning of the game you could reveal your companion, put it in your hand, and then draw one fewer cards to start with. The abilities of some are still nuts, and the "restrictions" are still laughably inconsequential. But at least it's not an EXTRA card that can't be interacted with.

[Yawgmoth]

Jim Davis had a good take on Companions in that, rather than existing outside the game as a bonus extra card, at the beginning of the game you could reveal your companion, put it in your hand, and then draw one fewer cards to start with. The abilities of some are still nuts, and the "restrictions" are still laughably inconsequential. But at least it's not an EXTRA card that can't be interacted with.

I think the best part about Jim Davis' plan was not the exact details but rather the method for how to fix Companion. He pointed out that "Companion" is not defined on the card and as such, WotC can change the rule without having to errata cards or ban anything (similar to how they have changed the rules for Legendary permanents and Planeswalkers over the years). WotC can simply add additional restrictions to using a Companion.

I've been suggesting something similar for the past week, which is that the best solution is not to ban the individual cards but rather change how the Companion mechanic works or what formats it appears it etc.

[cfusionpm]

But to be clear about my personal opinion, I'm pretty sure Lurrus is broko regardless of rules change...

[drmarkb]

Even Companion could be fixed easily with a proper approach to hate cards.
" I wish for a Taxi for Maro and Co".
Enchantment -WW
Flash
When an opponent plays a spell from outside the game, you may reveal I wish for a Taxi for Maro and Co from outside the game and play it with out paying its casting cost.
If a creature card would enter play from outside the game from outside exile it unless its owner pays X, where X is its casting cost.
Players cannot fetch non creature cards from outside the game. Cards in exile cannot move to players' graveyards, hands or libraries.

Hoses companion (or at least early companion), takes up a sideboard slot, but has corner case uses against decks trying to Wish or move cards from Exile zones into graveyard, like some of the eldrazi.

[idSurge]

Still not good enough, unless it also has the companion mechanic.

The whole premise is flawed. It should not be reasoned with, it should not be justified. It should be removed.

[ThatStoryTeller]

There are already discord communities for the eternal formats of players who have removed wizard's bad decision making from their enjoyment of the game. I found one discord server for a group that basically caps their format at Pre-War and intends to evaluate which cards should be banned when they expand their range. Honestly -allosaurus rider -Teferi -Veil of summer +Splinter Twin -emry with the removal of the companion slot would be how I built the format. Id need to really look at the discussions around opal and looting though for the players who felt slighted by the answer to hogaak and urza. Im not sure Uro needs to go personally, but astrolabe is going if mox opal could safely come back. These are just thoughts Ive had or potential brainstorms for a future project

[cfusionpm]

Things like discord are great examples of what is fracturing the Modern (and Magic as a whole) community. There is no aggregate place to congregate; just endless pockets of narrow, niche discussions outlets that ironically act against the nature of the format (usually being tied to a specific deck, which means it becomes irrelevant once the deck becomes irrelevant).

Just rambling and justifying my existence here. Any other meaningful places for general discussion? Even r/ModernMagic is full of random fluff, with deep analysis the exception, not the rule. Plus reddit's structure in general doesn't promote good discussion anyway. Much like Twitter, it thrives on clickbait and controversy to drive things to the top.

[Ed06288]

whenever magic is in a rough spot, i always think about the old school players ive met who continue to play. theyve been through the border change, arcbound ravager being a problem, the decline of vintage, and more. i don't know why they continue to play standard and draft but they do. it's good to be flexible and open minded.

but i'm still looking forward to the next ban announcement. whenever that is. hopefully they ban lurrus

[FoodChainGoblins]

Things like discord are great examples of what is fracturing the Modern (and Magic as a whole) community. There is no aggregate place to congregate; just endless pockets of narrow, niche discussions outlets that ironically act against the nature of the format (usually being tied to a specific deck, which means it becomes irrelevant once the deck becomes irrelevant).

Just rambling and justifying my existence here. Any other meaningful places for general discussion? Even r/ModernMagic is full of random fluff, with deep analysis the exception, not the rule. Plus reddit's structure in general doesn't promote good discussion anyway. Much like Twitter, it thrives on clickbait and controversy to drive things to the top.

I don't think there's any way to get all of the groups that want to discuss Modern banlist suggestions together. The only way would be something through WotC and I'm assuming they don't want to do that. Maybe they figure it's not necessarily the loudest voices or the most (biggest number of people) voices that always have the format's best interests in mind?

I feel like it's pretty good here. This is pretty much the only forum where I talk about Modern ban list suggestions. Most of my friends think I'm out there when I talk about my suggestions, so I can't really say much there (they don't wanna hear me). I do comment in threads when people make some comments that I feel are out there though. For example, if I see someone name some card that's on the current banlist and "how bad it would be for Modern," I really can't let that slide without a comment.

But I'm always down to listen to everyone's point of view if they want to discuss it. Sometimes we come at a crossroads, where we can't really go from there, but it's nice to know someone's point of view with anything. Even if someone wants to defend a card like Veil of Summer, I am willing to listen to what they have to say. I initially didn't think it was as bad as many players here to be honest. But now, I see the deep repercussions to the card being in a format (both Legacy, where I hate it even more so, and Modern). Although I originally thought that Veil should be banned in Legacy immediately, I also feel that it does in Modern as well now. It took me a bit to see it. (mostly because I hadn't witnessed the blowouts, I hadn't done the blowouts myself, and because I didn't see how many decks bent their deck to play it at the time)

Like @Ed06288 said, it's best to stay fluid. I went from being pissed about the Twin ban (and the Summer Bloom ban) to not wanting it back at one time to feeling like it's fine again. When Modern was Midrange central (I don't know how many of you have played that long ago), I did not feel like Stoneforge Mystic was fine to be unbanned. I even told people at the time that I would run Stoneforge Mystic in my Summer Bloom deck just to prove how busted the card was. But things change. From about 2015 to when it finally got unbanned, it was definitely time and pretty innocuous as we can now see.

[blkdemonight]

Still not good enough, unless it also has the companion mechanic.

The whole premise is flawed. It should not be reasoned with, it should not be justified. It should be removed.

This is precisely why I compare cards with companion mechanic as extra deck cards from Yugioh. Playing without extra deck cards in that game places anyone in a major disadvantage in competitive conditions. Same thing in Duel Links app without access to character skills.

[Simto]

You know, I think the best thing to come out of this set is seeing Hardened Scales decks pop up here and there again Always rooting for that deck to do well.

[stille_nacht]

It's kind of funny that the new cards are driving my favorite deck of all time (Hardened Scales) and my most desired new archetype (creature heavy, non-infinite blood artist decks).

Because honestly, this is the first time I've sorta lost hope in modern, and honestly, eternal formats in general. War of the spark was atrocious for eternal formats in my opinion, and rather than getting better, it has somehow managed to get progressively worse and worse.

[venting]

Companions are such a bad idea that it makes me question whether or not the designers even play magic competitively, on any level. Like, a 100% guaranteed 8th thouthseizable card isn't safe. This is less safe than phyrexian mana. Hell, I think this is less safe than new storm cards. There's a lot of "oh you can't balance for every format" excuses going around on reddit, but Lurrus is so obviously easy to design a deck around that it strains credulity that this made it through. Like so many aspects of it just make no intuitive sense to me. Why is it hybrid mana? Why is it a 3/2? Why did it get lifelink? Like, did wizards think that "play cheap spells" was such a restriction that they needed to make it aggressive?

Basically I have no confidence that wizards has any clue how their game plays. I only play eternal formats, and it's beginning to feel like I should just stop playing magic altogether.

[Ed06288]

i've flipped through binders of power 9, juzam djinns, city of brass, ect. These players said they preferred legacy but I would sometimes play competitive standard or draft against them in the store. I guess they chose not to get so hung up over whatever changes occurred in the game.

They always hated modern though lol. They played it a little bit, but it wasn't common.

[drmarkb]

Still not good enough, unless it also has the companion mechanic.

The whole premise is flawed. It should not be reasoned with, it should not be justified. It should be removed.

The card suggestion I posted could be played for free from outside the game if the opponent casts a spell from outside the game. It effectively has the companion mechanic- pseudo companion, you are playing the game against an opponent casting a card from outside the game. In other words it only can be cast from outside the game itself for free if the opponent is playing a companion.

[Albegas]

Companions are such a bad idea that it makes me question whether or not the designers even play magic competitively, on any level. Like, a 100% guaranteed 8th thouthseizable card isn't safe. This is less safe than phyrexian mana. Hell, I think this is less safe than new storm cards. There's a lot of "oh you can't balance for every format" excuses going around on reddit, but Lurrus is so obviously easy to design a deck around that it strains credulity that this made it through. Like so many aspects of it just make no intuitive sense to me. Why is it hybrid mana? Why is it a 3/2? Why did it get lifelink? Like, did wizards think that "play cheap spells" was such a restriction that they needed to make it aggressive?

Basically I have no confidence that wizards has any clue how their game plays. I only play eternal formats, and it's beginning to feel like I should just stop playing magic altogether.

We've known for some time that they don't really care if cards break older formats so long as Standard is enjoyable. I'm pretty sure they said something along those lines around the time Eldrazi Winter happened. What's scary is what's going on in Standard. Based on the article pushed out when Oko was banned and Sam Black's tweet, I'm convinced that the Play and Design team is a play team and a design team, and the play team is at the mercy of the design team. The Oko article emphasized that the team is more design and less play, and from Sam Black, we know that the Play team isn't there to stop broken cards from being pushed. This tells me that Design doesn't really focus a lot on how their designs affect play and that the Play team doesn't have a lot of influence on design beyond making sure cards are playable. I know that we were sold that Play and Design would be working in tandem to stop broken cards from being pushed while creating a Standard experience that would move away from Kaladesh's awful design, but I'm about convinced that the Play and Design team have either lost sight of their goal or there's some big wig forcing them to devolve back into Kaladesh design philosophy. We can already see that Companions have become the Brainstorm of Standard: sure you don't need one, but you need a really good reason not to run one (and so far, the only good reasons seem to be Uro and T3feri/Narset)

[Simto]

It's a company out to make a profit, it's pretty clear. They'll do whatever sells the most packs and %$#% anything else.
I'm not blaming them since that's the reason companies exist hehe, but it just feels like that's all they want. It's like they don't care about the game or their players/consumers. There's very little integrity if you ask me.
But I have a feeling that Wizards has a golden circle of people who basically get to do whatever they want and %$#% the rest. I very much get that feeling from them.
I'm sad drafting is such a high priority for printing cards. So much of the design is made to create a draft format for each set that it always ends up being %$#%. I %$#% hate draft, I just want to play fun modern and commander.

[drmarkb]

Standard just isn't enjoyable. One of the issues is data. Data is like a screwdriver, you can use it to screw something, or you can stick it through someone's skull and only one of them is the right use but it can do either. They see from the data that players dislike standard. I myself have often filled in their surveys, and have always described Standard as piss weak in them whilst making any point on the free form sections. Trouble is it is still piss weak to me, they could give me a 20/20 for 2 mana and it is still piss weak, because they have only ramped up threats, not the fast mana, not the answers. Uro might be strong, but without fast mana and trinisphere, thoughtseize, or humility or swords to plowshares type stuff Standard is still piss weak. Energy Standard was weak. Yes you could turn 4 Emrakul, that is true. But I could not kill your land or prevent you casting the degeneracy, stop energy happening or thoughtseize it, so the format was still weak if my intention was to stop you. Having one or a few overriding must-play cards does not make a format strong, having powerful threats, answers and ability to get fast mana or cheat stuff all make a format feel strong.
. If you don't have that stuff it is like a table with one long powerful leg and three short ones. So even now Standard is not strong. Legacy is strong. Modern sadly is not as strong. Waving path to exile at my opponent's titan does not feel strong although playing a red deck and dropping a blood moon or damping sphere against an overpowered amulet deck does.

I think their surveys are awfully designed, and are practically stackable offences. I remember one referring to the art and its importance. Whichever way I answered I implied that either the great art was important to me, or the great art was not. I could not say the art was quite important to me but their art was arse wipe homogenous generic fantasy guff. This was during the era when their art was really generic before Sagas and Seb McKinnon etc. I think eventually after a few surveys I could get the point across.

Another issue is they put out surveys aimed at groups. Bad move. I fill in a survey, after a minute it says 'sorry this is for Brawl players' or whatever. So I go back on a different IP later and fill it in, making up guff about brawl to tell them what I want for Modern, Legacy, Draft etc. I know everyone else does the same thing.

What percentage of players tell the truth on their surveys? Not high. You can see this on the fora and other places. E.g. 'Hey guys there is a new survey, link here. Looks like they are discussing draft, make sure you tell them that X format exists'. So you fill in a survey about draft and any point you make 'thoughtseize is a great draft card' is actually aimed at your other formats.
When they do get data, like the most requested reprints of fetches, what do they do? Hide behind economic voodoo priests and witter on about top men at wotc, before making Ultimate secret lair - at about 3 copies per store- saying commander players don't really need them, rather than reprinting them in a masters set, say, every four years, which would keep the price high but still make them available at a cheaper price point than their excessive price.

[drmarkb]

It's a company out to make a profit, it's pretty clear. They'll do whatever sells the most packs and %$#% anything else.
I'm not blaming them since that's the reason companies exist hehe, but it just feels like that's all they want. It's like they don't care about the game or their players/consumers. There's very little integrity if you ask me.
But I have a feeling that Wizards has a golden circle of people who basically get to do whatever they want and %$#% the rest. I very much get that feeling from them.
I'm sad drafting is such a high priority for printing cards. So much of the design is made to create a draft format for each set that it always ends up being %$#%. I %$#% hate draft, I just want to play fun modern and commander.

To be fair I love draft, and hate Commander, absolutely detest it. Each to their own, but I want them to stop designing for Commander in Standard and put more stuff in aimed at eternals. Draft and Commander are the big drivers of pack sales, so that is what we get.

[Simto]

but I want them to stop designing for Commander in Standard and put more stuff in aimed at eternals

I totally agree with that even though we have different format tastes
Especially since they're putting out more Commander specific products from this year on.

[FoodChainGoblins]

To add some anecdotal evidence of a warped meta - I will present Mr. Reid Duke, Modern Jund player. Now, many of you know I hate Jund and have hated it for quite some time. Still, watching Reid Duke play the deck is just a thing of beauty. Anyway, to my point!

Reid Duke kept a hand with triple Nihil Spellbomb, Blackcleave Cliffs, Bloodstained Mire, Inquisition of Kozilek, and Mishra's Bauble. Snap keep, right? His opponent was playing UB Lurrus. When asked in chat about Lurrus vs. Bloodbraid Elf, you could see that he didn't want to essentially say that Bloodbraid Elf was trash when compared. He said there is no comparison, as you can't compare an extra card to a card in your deck.

*I should also point out if it's not clear that the hand is 100% a keep and it's not particularly even close to being a mulligan. It could even literally close to the best hand he could have in this matchup, only bested by one of the Nihil Spellbombs being a Wrenn and Six.

[TheBoulderer]

I just had another one of those great experiences. Which point to the huge faults in modern even before Lurrus. It is absolutely vital to not brush those flaws aside, even though obviously, WotC will do exactly that.

I face UG Uro. Have him down to nothing, he has no board except astrolabe, an Uro in the bin, I have Kalitas + Snapcaster and swing.

Next turn, he casts Blood Moon off Astrolabe, locking my mana down, and the turn after that, he escapes Uro. No way to come back.

To recap: his mana was: Island Island Island Breeding Pool, and 2 Astrolabes. He casts Blood Moon WITHOUT RED one turn, leaving him with Island-Island-Island-Mountain. the next turn, he escapes Uro FOR UUGG.

I am so %$#% done with games like this. So incredibly %$#% done.

They'll ban Lurrus and leave everything else as is, and modern will be as butt-%$#% as it was before.

Alternatively they will ban Bauble and modern will be even more but-%$#%.

I can't be bothered anymore. No wonder even people on this thread seem to be losing interest.

I also have to add that even these articles and arguments about how "modern is diverse, but has some strong pillars" are completely missing the point.

Deck diversity doesn't matter if every deck revoles around the same cards. The meta is now RDW, Tron-lands, Astrolabe, Lurrus, Titan and the hate deck, RG midrange. Everything else is marginal and underpowered. I'm so %$#% sick of it. Playing a deck outside those pillars is impossible, futile and frustrating. I don't think I've faced a deck outside those few groups in about 50 matches now.

There is no real diversity. It's all crap. Grixis Delver is just another bad deck + Lurrus + Bauble. Snow decks are just whatever half-ok control deck + Astrolabe + Uro. They aren't defined by Path, or wraths, or counter spells. They are defined by the pushed cards that even make them playable. Bant is nothing without Astrolabe because it just straight chokes on its %$#% greedy mana. Its just a bad deck. But woohoo Astrolabe + the best payoff in the format, and we're good to go!!

It's ridiculous. I just sold out of MTG btw. For good. I've decided to move on. I took a long hard think wether I was about to do something stupid in an emotional state, I gave it a day, slept over it, and then sold out of MTG, both online and paper, because the quality of the game has hit rock-bottom. It's not fun to play anymore, and there is ZERO confidence that management is competent enough to fix it.

People keep playing because they have a long history with the game, are invested in it, and harbor hopes that everything will be turned around. If MTG didn't have such an attached player base, it would have 100% died in the last year. At this point, the hope that Modern will get better is equivalent to looking in the same spot again and again when you've lost your keys even though you know they're not there.

[cfusionpm]

There is no real diversity. It's all crap. Grixis Delver is just another bad deck + Lurrus + Bauble. Snow decks are just whatever half-ok control deck + Astrolabe + Uro. They aren't defined by Path, or wraths, or counter spells. They are defined by the pushed cards that even make them playable. Bant is nothing without Astrolabe because it just straight chokes on its %$#% greedy mana. Its just a bad deck. But woohoo Astrolabe + the best payoff in the format, and we're good to go!!

I've exclusively played Bant Uro Control on MTGO for months now, and your description is perfect about the deck. It would literally fall to pieces if it lost EITHER Astrolabe or Uro. They are the glue that hold it together, much like Splinter Twin held together UR Control. The rest of the deck simply is not good enough without a powerful payoff. (And lol, no, Stoneforge is NOT a powerful payoff! :laugh: )

It's ridiculous. I just sold out of MTG btw. For good. I've decided to move on. I took a long hard think wether I was about to do something stupid in an emotional state, I gave it a day, slept over it, and then sold out of MTG, both online and paper, because the quality of the game has hit rock-bottom. It's not fun to play anymore, and there is ZERO confidence that management is competent enough to fix it.

People keep playing because they have a long history with the game, are invested in it, and harbor hopes that everything will be turned around. If MTG didn't have such an attached player base, it would have 100% died in the last year. At this point, the hope that Modern will get better is equivalent to looking in the same spot again and again when you've lost your keys even though you know they're not there.

The literal only reason I haven't sold out of my paper cards is that I either have to hassle through listing and selling literally thousands of individual cards, or I take a massive hit on buylist price. I'd happily use this free time to sort, list, and ship my cards if my time wasn't being used to watch my toddler all day every day.

[drmarkb]

I kept modern decks worth nothing after slowly selling the big haymaking decks- keeping a few cards I wanted for Legacy, selling the rest- I kept my pets for nostalgia only- 2 enchantment control (that can always beat some decks like RDW- because 8th card or not Leyline of sanctity and attack taxes always works, and beats up a few other decks that need to attack and can't counter, whilst scooping to tron), 1 mono red (big red/moon) that beats amulet, humans not much else, a couple of ponza shells (that beat up on tron decks and can munch on some of the midrangey stuff ), and martyr proc that I might be able to use with Lurrus, depending on bannings. But by and large the format is not worth holding big money cards for. Uro and similarly pushed cards just need to be sold, because when the financial merry-go round stops due to bannings or reprints, you don't want to be the poor sod throwing up. Got an unlimited Mox? Keep it Got £1500 of Modern staples- sell the hell out of them.