[Official] State of Modern Thread (B&R 03/09/2020)

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Post by Greeksis » 1 month ago

idSurge wrote:
1 month ago
Neoform is combo.
Ad Naus is combo.
Tron is Big Mana
Opal is many different things.
Amulet is Big mana
Dredge is Dredge.
Storm is Storm.

Fires? Fires is nothing. Fires is just 1 more stupid 4cmc value engine. Thats not an 'archetype' its a flawed card design.
Does this mean that free mana is good in Tron or combos, but bad in Fires?

Fires is a high synergy card. Tron is some high synergy lands as well.

It's literally the same. I am not arguing about some card being good. I think all cards are equally bad.
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Post by idSurge » 1 month ago

No, free mana is never good lol. I mean we have been over this. Free mana is easily the number 1 'if you cross this line, you break the game' mechanic.

Fires is not 'synergy'. Its brainless! "I am at 4 mana and cast fires, then I cast a 4cmc card for free.' then its 'I have a fires out, I play a land, and cast 2 5cmc or less spells for free.

What a marvel of synergistic deck design!

It is more brain dead than Tron, and you know how I feel about tron.

EDIT: Not that it matters. Modern is more of an afterthought than any other format in the game. If one has a desire for the most degenerate gameplay that has ever transpired, the closest you will ever get to it, is Modern.

And thats fact.
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Post by Tzoulis » 1 month ago

idSurge wrote:
1 month ago
EDIT: Not that it matters. Modern is more of an afterthought than any other format in the game. If one has a desire for the most degenerate gameplay that has ever transpired, the closest you will ever get to it, is Modern.
I get not liking Modern, but this has become a ridiculous and stupid meme.

Have you ever watched Legacy and/or Vintage?

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Post by idSurge » 1 month ago

Yes. Vintage is such a distinct thing, but I dont believe it has anywhere near the depth/breadth of degeneracy as Modern, it does what it does, but its Vintage, its a unique entity as divorced form 'normal' Magic as EDH imo.

Legacy COULD be degenerate, but it has all the tools to prevent it from happening.

Wizards actions speak louder than words, and unless a degenerate deck explodes to prove itself as the singular best thing, we dont see action in more than half measures.

If you wanted a format to keep doing your broken thing, Modern is it.

EDIT: And I'm not saying that as a damnation, or judgement.

That is what this format is. It is powerful, without the cards which have a stifling impact. That is what this format is, and has been, that is its identity.

Look elsewhere (while you can) if thats not your cup of tea.
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Post by Greeksis » 1 month ago

Legacy is not a more degenerate format than Modern, period. I get Vintage being ridiculous, but Legacy has super smart decisions and demands super technical and niche gameplay. I know, it's a blue dominated format, that's a given problem. You can accuse it of not being diverse and I will agree with you. But accusing a format where basically whoever brainstorms the best wins feels extremely weird.
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Post by th33l3x » 1 month ago

I feel like threads like this should be suspended for about 2-3 weeks after every banning/update in modern, because although modern does probably still have serious problems, the level of fact-free, data-free, negative opinion-sentiment-emotional-blubbering is simply staggering.

It's basically somebody bathing in their own tears about some banned card for 3 pages, briefly coming up for air to shout "OH BY THE WAY, FORMAT'S STILL DOG %$#%" before diving back into their bottomless pool of sorrow.

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Post by cfusionpm » 1 month ago

th33l3x wrote:
1 month ago
I feel like threads like this should be suspended for about 2-3 weeks after every banning/update in modern, because although modern does probably still have serious problems, the level of fact-free, data-free, negative opinion-sentiment-emotional-blubbering is simply staggering.
I agree. But I'll reiterate this for (everyone) who seemed to miss it:
cfusionpm wrote:
1 month ago
I still think a super important factor is being overlooked:
Our reason for making this change is based on metagame data and play rates of companion decks across all formats, and on player feedback on repetitive gameplay patterns. As a group, decks using companions have too high of win rates and metagame share in Standard, Pioneer, and Modern, and have already necessitated bans in Legacy and Vintage. This trend represents a long-term problem for the health and diversity of all formats. Rather than go down the path of making several individual adjustments to the banned list for each format, we feel the better solution is to reduce the advantage gained from using a companion across the board.
This tells us a few things:
1) They do not see any problem in Modern or Pioneer, besides Companions
2) They do not want to ban a bunch of cards, meaning problems we have will remain for the foreseeable future.
3) There are no further B&R announcements planned or scheduled. This is it, until they feel like doing anything at some point in the future.

Make of these what you will.
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Post by The Fluff » 1 month ago

ok, woke up seeing the thread filled.

3 mana tax, plus he get's put into my hand to become vulnerable to discard? Well, that's not bad at all. My deck plays the long game anyway. I'm pleased that this nerf might bring down the price of companions even more. :)
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Post by Tzoulis » 1 month ago

idSurge wrote:
1 month ago
Yes. Vintage is such a distinct thing, but I dont believe it has anywhere near the depth/breadth of degeneracy as Modern, it does what it does, but its Vintage, its a unique entity as divorced form 'normal' Magic as EDH imo.

Legacy COULD be degenerate, but it has all the tools to prevent it from happening.

Wizards actions speak louder than words, and unless a degenerate deck explodes to prove itself as the singular best thing, we dont see action in more than half measures.

If you wanted a format to keep doing your broken thing, Modern is it.

EDIT: And I'm not saying that as a damnation, or judgement.

That is what this format is. It is powerful, without the cards which have a stifling impact. That is what this format is, and has been, that is its identity.

Look elsewhere (while you can) if thats not your cup of tea.
Modern is my cup of tea, as you put it -that's why I'm posting here- but claiming it's a degenerate hellhole, leaps and bounds ahead of Vintage and Legacy is a meme and pure hyperbole. You just handwaved Vintage with "well, that's Vintage". Shops aren't degenerate? Paradoxical Storm isn't? What about Oath? Dredge? HollowVine?

About Legacy, even though there are significant interaction points, most of them are Force or get dead. We've had this discussion before. Legacy is far more unhealthy (and degenerate) than it seems, since it operates on the EDH mentality of rule 0 in paper. But even then you have Dredge, Storm, Gyruda, Reanimator, OmniTell etc. All those are acceptable in their degeneracy, that puts Legacy below Modern for some reason?

Lastly, wtf is "degeneracy" or a "degenerate format"? Because I can't possibly envision an interpretation that puts Legacy and Vintage below Modern.

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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 1 month ago

Tzoulis wrote:
1 month ago
Lastly, wtf is "degeneracy" or a "degenerate format"? Because I can't possibly envision an interpretation that puts Legacy and Vintage below Modern.
Legacy is less degenerate because there are stop gaps, aka FoW, Daze, and viable Prison strategies. Modern can never have that kind of defense. Do you know how many times I saw someone enter a Modern stream chat and ask what kind of Legacy deck that is just to realize that all of the main engine pieces that are legal in Legacy are also legal in Modern; just different mana? Force of Negation was a big start and a very positive card. Modern needs more cards like that.

The only people that think Legacy is just all turn 1 combos is someone who has never or barely ever actually played the format. Legacy has some really long and thought out games that could end very quickly if someone had made an egregious mistake. Counter wars with Flusterstorm can be tough to navigate, even in today's Veil meta. The only people that don't like Legacy are people who can't afford it. That is definitely a problem, but you can't say that it sucks because you can't play it. Sometimes you get killed on turn 1 and realize, maybe I should have mulled to Grafdigger's Cage, Force of Will, or Surgical Extraction. Maybe I will come with Mindbreak Traps next week.

I haven't actually played Vintage for a long time, but I've watched plenty of streams recently. It actually is a lot more interesting than I had guessed it to be, but still I can see someone's view of whoever draws the most busted cards wins.
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Post by idSurge » 1 month ago

Tzoulis wrote:
1 month ago
Lastly, wtf is "degeneracy" or a "degenerate format"?
A format which exists on the basis of having less tools to combat powerful lines of play which function on the various axis points that when unregulated lead to banned cards.

Wasteland, FoW, Daze, Ponder, Brainstorm.
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Post by The Fluff » 1 month ago

FoodChainGoblins wrote:
1 month ago
Tzoulis wrote:
1 month ago
Lastly, wtf is "degeneracy" or a "degenerate format"? Because I can't possibly envision an interpretation that puts Legacy and Vintage below Modern.
The only people that think Legacy is just all turn 1 combos is someone who has never or barely ever actually played the format.
have seen Landstill vs. Landstill in a legacy tournament. No turn 1 wins there.
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Post by Greeksis » 1 month ago

WOTC had their chance of introducing real answers for modern's power level. It was MH. We all thought a wasteland variance or wasteland itself is going to be in the set, FoW, daze, blasts, etc.

Wizards failed at this. They chose to introduce powerful bomb threats, bust Mox Opal wide open, bust FLooting wide open, leave us with a gazillion of bad cards behind and just a relatively good one(FoN), for them to sell packs in the short-term. And what about the long-term in Modern?

I have never lost hope on modern, pre-MH. There were lots of people bashing the format and all I ever wanted is a MH kind of set to come and balance the degeneracy out. Instead, they screwed up big time. And that's sad. It's not a pessimistic thought, nor is it a bash-y one. MH made me stop modern and my store stop firing events, so, there's that. I hope most of you can understand my feelings about how WOTC handled this set now.
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Post by idSurge » 1 month ago

Not that they didnt do something! We got FoN and Flusterstorm for example, Plague Engineer I maintain is a great card (not cuz I called for something like it before it came out or anything...lol) but...it simply is not enough to keep up.

"Do the busted thing you like" remains the order of the day, and it forever will in Modern.

No format is allowed to languish as Modern has, multiple times.
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Post by Greeksis » 1 month ago

Plague Engineer is a card I hate with a passion. I think we had that discussion before? It's more of a prison card and even if that's kind of fine, it really eliminated Humans/Spirits/Elves/Merfolk kind of decks. Even in that department, for me, the set was a fail. And I didn't even mention astrolabe :P

I mean, do the busted thing you like is fine. Honestly, some people like it and I respect that(even if I think it's terrible). What I don't like is MH altering the nature of the format. Stealing their identity out.
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Post by idSurge » 1 month ago

I saw a format in which Humans/Spirits was just becoming too fast, and too disruptive. Its a safety valve card for when tribal takes over. Remember when 'take whatever percentage you think you are at against humans, and subtract 5%' was a thing?

Answers to proactive play, are what Modern needs.

And yes, 'do your busted thing' is fine. I honestly believe that if there is a vision statement for each format up on someone's wall at Wizards, that is Moderns role.

'Allows for the most proactive, degenerate lines of play, only to be banned of the competitive meta devolves to a single type of that degeneracy.'

And thats 100% fine, but I see no reason to believe otherwise.
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Post by Greeksis » 1 month ago

Modern was very good during the Humans/Spirits era, because both of those decks had Delver's role in Legacy. Lots of disruption + fast kills.

That's what Modern needs to return to that great state it was. A delver like deck, Twin like deck, Humans-Spirits like deck at Tier 1.
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Post by cfusionpm » 1 month ago

Greeksis wrote:
1 month ago
Plague Engineer is a card I hate with a passion. I think we had that discussion before? It's more of a prison card and even if that's kind of fine, it really eliminated Humans/Spirits/Elves/Merfolk kind of decks.
How does a 2-of sideboard card, that requires black mana, completely invalidate those decks? Seems like bigger meta changes are at play than simply one card. Because if that were the case, then we could all just play 2 SB Spellskites...
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Post by Tzoulis » 1 month ago

FoodChainGoblins wrote:
1 month ago
Tzoulis wrote:
1 month ago
Lastly, wtf is "degeneracy" or a "degenerate format"? Because I can't possibly envision an interpretation that puts Legacy and Vintage below Modern.
Legacy is less degenerate because there are stop gaps, aka FoW, Daze, and viable Prison strategies. Modern can never have that kind of defense. Do you know how many times I saw someone enter a Modern stream chat and ask what kind of Legacy deck that is just to realize that all of the main engine pieces that are legal in Legacy are also legal in Modern; just different mana? Force of Negation was a big start and a very positive card. Modern needs more cards like that.

The only people that think Legacy is just all turn 1 combos is someone who has never or barely ever actually played the format. Legacy has some really long and thought out games that could end very quickly if someone had made an egregious mistake. Counter wars with Flusterstorm can be tough to navigate, even in today's Veil meta. The only people that don't like Legacy are people who can't afford it. That is definitely a problem, but you can't say that it sucks because you can't play it. Sometimes you get killed on turn 1 and realize, maybe I should have mulled to Grafdigger's Cage, Force of Will, or Surgical Extraction. Maybe I will come with Mindbreak Traps next week.

I haven't actually played Vintage for a long time, but I've watched plenty of streams recently. It actually is a lot more interesting than I had guessed it to be, but still I can see someone's view of whoever draws the most busted cards wins.
I've played (and watched) Legacy. I never claimed Legacy was a T1 race, but those decks DO exist and they're a large percentage of the meta, if not the biggest. And that's with almost no competitive spotlight on Legacy.

In every format, every single time, the best thing you'll be able to do is go fast and make them answer the thing you do. Legacy has those tools to fight them, but they still aren't enough. They're not consistent enough. Reanimator can just Duress and/or Unmask you on T1 with you doing anything. Dredge laughs at stack based interaction. Storm is slower, but now with Witchclaw FAR more resilient and consistent. Also, LED's a thing.

Also, Eldrazi with Spirit Guides, Once Upon a Time and 10+ Sol Lands.

Vintage is a bunch of degenerate combo/value engines that look awesome because they play with P9 and other extremely broken cards. Even the "fair" decks, mostly the 4C Deathrite piles, got nothing against Outcome and Shops.

So, no, I don't see those formats as less degenerate than Modern. Note, that many people would (and have) considered Prison strategies as degenerate. You might not (I don't either), but others have.

Stop gaps rarely help. Wrenn + Wasteland was in the format and Turbo Depths was still one of the better decks. There's only one relevant control deck and one Delver variant, the rest are "degenerate" combo decks. How is that picture healthier (or less "degenerate")?

You're reinforcing my point, that Legacy (and Vintage) have the perception of being a "haven" for interactive decks or that interaction is rewarded there, but that's %$#%$#%. Combo and Aggro rule the day in these formats (and Stax/Shops in Vintage).
idSurge wrote:
1 month ago
Tzoulis wrote:
1 month ago
Lastly, wtf is "degeneracy" or a "degenerate format"?
A format which exists on the basis of having less tools to combat powerful lines of play which function on the various axis points that when unregulated lead to banned cards.

Wasteland, FoW, Daze, Ponder, Brainstorm.
And the format that has those is also a degenerate mess. As mentioned above, and we've said before Legacy has the perception of being "fair" or reward interaction. Reality is that it's broken AF and far more degenerate than Modern.
Greeksis wrote:
1 month ago
Modern was very good during the Humans/Spirits era, because both of those decks had Delver's role in Legacy. Lots of disruption + fast kills.

That's what Modern needs to return to that great state it was. A delver like deck, Twin like deck, Humans-Spirits like deck at Tier 1.
Twin killed fast when it combo'd. When it didn't it, the game took many turns. While I did like the format during the Spirits/Human era (Summer of 2018 iirc), the period of post-Oko to pre-Ikoria had as top decks highly interactive decks and skillful matchups.

Yes it was dominated by Astrolabe, but why is an Astrolabe meta worse than a meta dominated by Vial/Cavern?

The only reason control was played during the Spirits/Human era, was because Miracles was briefly a thing (Terminus bypassed Selfless Spirit AND Queller), but Cavern and Vial invalidated almost all Counters.

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Post by idSurge » 1 month ago

Tzoulis wrote:
1 month ago
The only reason control was played during the Spirits/Human era, was because Miracles was briefly a thing (Terminus bypassed Selfless Spirit AND Queller), but Cavern and Vial invalidated almost all Counters.
This was also the only time UWR was viable at all.
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Post by cfusionpm » 1 month ago

Tzoulis wrote:
1 month ago
The only reason control was played during the Spirits/Human era, was because Miracles was briefly a thing (Terminus bypassed Selfless Spirit AND Queller), but Cavern and Vial invalidated almost all Counters.
Just yesterday and today, I ran into a Counterbalance Miracles list... twice. Dunno if it was the same guy or two decks, but saw the interaction with Mystic Sanctuary and Terminus. Might be worth exploring...? Iduno. I was playing Dredge (which I put together with the Tix I got from selling a single Bauble) and 2-0'd it both times, so.... maybe not?
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Post by idSurge » 1 month ago

The UR guy on Twitter ran that as well. Awesome if your into that style.
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Post by idSurge » 1 month ago

Oh and let it also be noted, I'm playing broken %$#% in Arena right now too. Everyone is. Every format is busted.

I just went.

1. Stomping Ground into Ghitu Lavarunner
2. Sulfur Falls into Runaway Steam-Kin
3. Mountain, Attack, Light Up the Stage, Opponent EOT Lightning Strike on opponents Fact or Fiction creature (whatever the UB thing is).
4. Untap, Steam Vents, Song of Creation (remove 3 counters for 3 Red) Skewer, Skewer, *opponent has conceded*.

Turn 4 Win, and I was about to draw my deck, or bolt my opponent out of the game (Deck runs 12 'bolts' + 4 Shocks), I've done this many times now, and the only problem is, other decks are even more busted and will win on Turn 3 even, in Historic.

I mean they didnt even ban Winota lol.
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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 1 month ago

idSurge wrote:
1 month ago
Oh and let it also be noted, I'm playing broken %$#% in Arena right now too. Everyone is. Every format is busted.

I just went.

1. Stomping Ground into Ghitu Lavarunner
2. Sulfur Falls into Runaway Steam-Kin
3. Mountain, Attack, Light Up the Stage, Opponent EOT Lightning Strike on opponents Fact or Fiction creature (whatever the UB thing is).
4. Untap, Steam Vents, Song of Creation (remove 3 counters for 3 Red) Skewer, Skewer, *opponent has conceded*.

Turn 4 Win, and I was about to draw my deck, or bolt my opponent out of the game (Deck runs 12 'bolts' + 4 Shocks), I've done this many times now, and the only problem is, other decks are even more busted and will win on Turn 3 even, in Historic.

I mean they didnt even ban Winota lol.
That's what I was the most surprised about. I don't play with or against her, but I hear so many comments from friends and other players about it. I guess it's not that bad?..
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Post by idSurge » 1 month ago

FoodChainGoblins wrote:
1 month ago
idSurge wrote:
1 month ago
Oh and let it also be noted, I'm playing broken %$#% in Arena right now too. Everyone is. Every format is busted.

I just went.

1. Stomping Ground into Ghitu Lavarunner
2. Sulfur Falls into Runaway Steam-Kin
3. Mountain, Attack, Light Up the Stage, Opponent EOT Lightning Strike on opponents Fact or Fiction creature (whatever the UB thing is).
4. Untap, Steam Vents, Song of Creation (remove 3 counters for 3 Red) Skewer, Skewer, *opponent has conceded*.

Turn 4 Win, and I was about to draw my deck, or bolt my opponent out of the game (Deck runs 12 'bolts' + 4 Shocks), I've done this many times now, and the only problem is, other decks are even more busted and will win on Turn 3 even, in Historic.

I mean they didnt even ban Winota lol.
That's what I was the most surprised about. I don't play with or against her, but I hear so many comments from friends and other players about it. I guess it's not that bad?..
Turn 1 Dork
Turn 2 Legion Warboss, Make a Token.
Turn 3 Winota, Make a Token, Swing with 3 (the Warboss alone will bury you lol), Dig 6 x 3 looking for Human bombs which are placed TAPPED AND ATTACKING AND GIVEN INVULN.

Oh and then everything stick's around, and you get to do it again.

Its a format where you quite seriously (and honestly I think Standard is much the same) have a pivotal turn, must remove threat, as early as turns 2 or 3.

Broken stuff.
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