Standard Meta Discussion

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Arkmer
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Post by Arkmer » 4 years ago

I don't think Arena is benefiting from people not playing Standard. That's like THEE format for arena. Pioneer is still mostly just shiny and new.

Bans suck, ya, but if there is a clearly best deck in the format you have two options. First you can ride that deck into oblivion and try to make as much off it as possible while it's legal (because you know it should be banned); second, you can sell out of that card/deck and play something more fun or try to predict the next meta after the ban.

Doing anything other than those is just lying to yourself. Players need to realize that when a deck rises above the others in such a significant manner there are risks associated with keeping it especially now that WotC is doing blind B&Rs. If bans kill formats, then having one deck to rule them all is worse. Nothing was more boring than games against another Oko player or Hogaak player or whatever the busted hotness of whatever format was.

Personally, I am having a ton of fun in Standard because of the bans. Most of the people at my LGS don't play tier one decks (specifically in Standard), so neither do I. Dropping the power level of the decks I play has been more fun than about any other time playing Magic.

Again, bans are bad and need to be avoided, but plugging your ears and not seeing how some cards need to be banned is equally as bad. Naturally, the way to avoid bans is to avoid printing cards that obliterate the meta but that seems to be very tough for WotC given their track record. So next time a deck comes along and is clearly showing that it's the best thing, make a choice; sell it or run it and squeeze all the value possible from it, but more importantly recognize what it is.

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Post by motleyslayer » 4 years ago

BeneTleilax wrote:
4 years ago
standard is dieing because they keep having the bans. it is broken so no-one play, then they ban everybodys deck and no-one plays. they are killing standard slowly like modern for pioneer and arena. arena is the real money.
while I feel that bans don't really help getting people to play standard, which has traditionally been one of the formats they've wanted to push the most because it sells a lot of packs, I don't know if bans are the only issue preventing people from playing standard

At least in my area, standard has been struggling for years, probably only getting progressively worse since Kaladesh era (which also had a lot of bans). Part of that could be bans, because it's hard to justify getting a deck if it could just be banned. Another factor (at least in my area) is that traditionally my area has been heavily into modern, as you can just by a deck and play it unless it gets banned. So in a sense, while the initial investment has been much higher, you don't need to keep updating it every so often (minus a few cards here and there). A lot of the modern diehards only really played standard when there was a close local GP in standard or Nationals. The one local store that ran standard FNMs was kind of stuggling for maybe 2ish years from 2017 until when they finally decided to just not have tables for Magic (store was more of a pawn shop that ran Magic because the owner loved Magic) due to not having enough attendance to fire any events and the other 2 stores ran modern

This may be just anecdotal on my end but from my experience, a lot of stores have been struggling to fire standard for years, so I don't know how much bans affect this. Even modern is kind of hard to fire now

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Post by onering » 4 years ago

Another thing that has consistently hurt standard is the persistent lack of strong answer cards at lower rarities. There needs to be competitively relevant black removal at common or uncommon for 2 or less Mana, there should be competetively relevant white removal at the same, there should be competitively relevant counter spells at the same.

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Post by AvalonAurora » 4 years ago

onering wrote:
4 years ago
Another thing that has consistently hurt standard is the persistent lack of strong answer cards at lower rarities. There needs to be competitively relevant black removal at common or uncommon for 2 or less Mana, there should be competetively relevant white removal at the same, there should be competitively relevant counter spells at the same.
Part of the problem with removal right now isn't so much it's mana cost or rarity (although there are issues due to that) but because we now get just so many creatures that produce worthwhile value regardless of the removal the opponent might have.

They might be a tough beater with hexproof. They might self-recurr. They might have powerful ETB effects. They might cheaply bounce of flicker themselves. They might make themselves obscenely cheap to cast with the right setup. They might have powerful on-death effects or create tokens on death. They might have potent 'when targeted' effects.

Whatever it is, there is a lot more of it in standard at once than there used to be. All sorts of things that mean the opponent is behind if they're casting removal.

Historically, you might have one or two creatures like that in a deck, usually at the top of the mana curve or requiring most of your deck to make work.

Nowadays, it seems like you can build your entire deck like that.

This would be almost okay if it was just midrange that had creatures like that.

It's not okay at all for combo creatures or aggro creatures to have that, as a removal heavy combo deck is supposed to answer combo creatures, and aggro creatures are meant to be delicate and unreliable to make up for their efficient offense and be weaker to midrange and mass removal (which there shouldn't be much of available, and should turn up when the aggro deck has a chance to often out-race it if you don't slow them down other ways beforehand, or put one last bit of critters down to win after the sweep to finish off the last bit of life)

Instead, the bulk of playable creatures, regardless of if you play aggro or midrange, produce value regardless of removal, and often do stuff even when hit with a sweeper.

They produce tons of creatures people like to play any time they can jam them in, rather than just a few to do things like top off mana curves or fulfill key roles, screwing up the balance of aggro and midrange decks. Then they produce combo decks that can easily play through answers more often than they should, breaking that too. This leaves a meta exceptionally weak if any of the three of midrange, aggro, or combo gets beyond a certain threshold.

Just making more efficient answers at lower rarities isn't enough, they need to not make too many sweepers at once (which forces them to make things resistant to sweepers), and make much less cards in standard at once be resistant to answers or producing efficient value despite them, and move what does get that kind of value up in mana costs and/or deck-building costs.

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Post by hoser2 » 4 years ago

There is no denying the history, but Standard is fantastic right now. There are a variety of competitive decks along with many somewhat competitive decks and an evolving competitive meta. A local store in my area has even revived Standard and we've fired it twice.

The interesting question is about the impact of Arena. While some say Arena will be the death of Standard, I see Arena players (insert miniscule unrepresentative sample warning here) showing up for Standard looking for a more social experience. To what degree can we attribute the decline of Standard to Field of the Dead/BrOko etc versus Arena? If Arena is a net negative, can Standard survive it with a solid run of good formats?

Edit: Given Coronavirus, I guess firing Standard tournaments isn't a good thing. I regret celebrating these events occurring. Please be safe everyone.

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Post by motleyslayer » 4 years ago

Been playing a bunch of standard on Arena since the whole Covid pandemic shut everything down a month or so ago. Meta feels diverse and shifting since I've been playing. Only complaint I really have is that Uro seems really good but the ramp decks (Bant and Sultai) seem beatable

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Post by Bearscape » 4 years ago

So UG Gyruda is just straight up unbeatable if they get to 6 mana. Lurrus is busted too (but never beats Gyruda)

I guess the one day of brewing companions was pretty interesting before the format was solved

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Post by motleyslayer » 4 years ago

Winota, Joiner of Forces also seems insane if they get the right start. Played against a straight Boros that used raise the alarm and chandra, acolyte of flame to get early non humans out

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Post by motleyslayer » 3 years ago

I actually really like how they caused essentially "early rotation" for Wilderness Reclamation , Growth Spiral and Teferi, Time Raveler . While it probably won't make much of a difference, we could get an interesting meta for 2 months, even if it does create sort of a "fake" meta when real rotation happens in the fall

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Post by Card Slinger J » 3 years ago

Wonder why they also didn't go after Teferi, Master of Time since there's a broken infinite turn combo with him?

Guess Wizards of the Coast didn't learn from Nexus of Fate when infinite turns on Arena is bad.
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Post by rujasu » 3 years ago

WOTC is generally more willing to ban cards after a set has been out for a year or so. Banning the latest set when they're still selling packs of it is bad for business.

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Post by motleyslayer » 3 years ago

Teferi, Master of Time hasn't shown to be all that broken yet but rather just pretty good IMO. Part of that could be because it's pretty much lived in the shadow of Teferi, Time Raveler during the month or so that 4feri has been out. Also a card has to be absurd to banned this early after release, something which 4feri hasn't shown to be yet

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Post by Guardman » 3 years ago

Zendikar Rising hasn't even been out a week and we might be getting a ban already if this tweet by WotC is implying what I think it is implying.



"We're closely monitoring developments in Standard. In order to avoid disrupting this weekend's tournaments, we intend to provide an update on the format early next week."

This is really interesting. I can't think of another time where a ban has come so soon after the release of a set, but at the same time I can't think of what else this tweet means. I haven't actually played any standard so far (too busy playing limited and grinding Mono-Red to try and get Diamond in Historic), but if it is a ban it looks like four possible choices judging by what I've read on the INTERNET.
  • Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath is probably the most likely choice as it has been a thorn in standard's side since day one and has gotten only more powerful with Zendikar being a land set. It is also the oldest card on the list, which I guess makes it the most vulnerable.
  • Omnath, Locus of Creation is the new boogeyman in standard and seems to be creating a standard in which you either play it or play a deck that can win before your opponent plays it.
  • Lotus Cobra as it is the enabler that not only fixes mana, but let's Omnath come down on turn three with consistancy.
  • Scute Swarm is the dark horse, but could be on the chopping block for non-power level reasons. Basically from what I can tell it is causing a non-trivial number of games to end in a draw and/or crashing Arena. This would make sense from a timing standpoint as this isn't something that the meta can adapt to since it is a problem with technology, not a card problem. The thing against it though is that the tweet specifically mentions standard and if it is meant to be banned for technology reasons, why word the tweet like that.

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Post by MAGUSZANIN » 3 years ago

The issue is that when they say they're going to ban a card, they say "we're updating the B&R lists for the following formats". But it's tough to imagine what this means other than that.

The true wild card theory is that Jumpstart isn't selling well enough, and so they're going to declare it Standard legal.

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Post by Card Slinger J » 3 years ago

Wizards of the Coast is too reliant on metagame data and results to determine what gets banned in Standard as an excuse for not playtesting and designing cards ahead of time. It also doesn't help that Hasbro is constantly pressuring them to meet deadlines which explains the quantity of new MTG products being released making it rather difficult to put in time to fix Standard, Modern, Pioneer, and Legacy. Their design philosophy is showing that they're having difficulty finding the right balance between competitive and casual while being afraid that If they focus too much on Standard and other competitive formats then they end up losing money for not catering to EDH / Commander players like they have been.

That's the problem when it comes to whether or not to push power creep to sell new product. What's stopping them from playtesting cards on Arena before the official release? Either their Play Design (formerly R&D department) for MTG is understaffed or they only care about appeasing the corporate shareholders at Hasbro especially If Wizards of the Coast blatantly lies about certain product releases not doing so well instead of taking responsibility by being honest with them. Lying only hurts the quality of MTG overall when they're already sold on the belief that customers will still buy the Paper products no matter how bad the card stock quality, packaging aesthetics, or illustrations on the cards are.
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Post by motleyslayer » 3 years ago

I can see at least Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath being banned, due to it being obnoxious ever since its release. Now it's not the "new card" from the new set that they wanna sell packs of. The power level of Uro has been known for months and its absurdly high.

I'd like to see Omnath, Locus of Creation and Lotus Cobra left alone for a bit to see if they're bad without Uro. Plus they have new card syndrome where WotC will wanna sell packs of the new set. I can see Scute Swarm being banned due to the crashes it causes
Card Slinger J wrote:
3 years ago
Wizards of the Coast is too reliant on metagame data and results to determine what gets banned in Standard as an excuse for not playtesting and designing cards ahead of time. It also doesn't help that Hasbro is constantly pressuring them to meet deadlines which explains the quantity of new MTG products being released making it rather difficult to put in time to fix Standard, Modern, Pioneer, and Legacy. Their design philosophy is showing that they're having difficulty finding the right balance between competitive and casual while being afraid that If they focus too much on Standard and other competitive formats then they end up losing money for not catering to EDH / Commander players like they have been.

That's the problem when it comes to whether or not to push power creep to sell new product. What's stopping them from playtesting cards on Arena before the official release? Either their Play Design (formerly R&D department) for MTG is understaffed or they only care about appeasing the corporate shareholders at Hasbro especially If Wizards of the Coast blatantly lies about certain product releases not doing so well instead of taking responsibility by being honest with them. Lying only hurts the quality of MTG overall when they're already sold on the belief that customers will still buy the Paper products no matter how bad the card stock quality, packaging aesthetics, or illustrations on the cards are.
This is pretty much it IMO. They've been so concerned with selling more product, all while completely missing the boat on power levels of many cards. The part that baffles me is that a lot of newer cards will have been designed in a standard with Oko, Thief of Crowns , Once Upon a Time and Fires of Invention in the format. That's a lot of busted cards

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Post by Card Slinger J » 3 years ago

Pretty much. Wizards of the Coast is taking advantage of popular cards warping the format around themselves in order to sell product at a much higher EV (Expected Value) than normal without even publicly acknowledging the Secondary Market. Not only does it end up pricing potential new players out of Standard but also enables those who've already invested in the game to spend more than they should. This in some ways is tied to the class warfare that we've been seeing in MTG lately especially in premium products like Double Masters VIP Edition and Secret Lair drops. It was already bad enough with players being priced out of Legacy due to how expensive consistent mana bases are. Modern even more so.

It creates a scenario where players who've heavily invested in decks around one particular card that breaks the format and is a $20+ Rare or Mythic face the prospect of quitting the game because they can't even sell the cards due to the bannings. The cards might have more value in other formats but even then how would you feel If you lost $200+ on a deck that you couldn't play anymore only to have the cycle end up repeating itself? Yu-Gi-Oh! players would go through a similar scenario all the time whenever format warping cards ended up on the Forbidden / Limited List and that hasn't changed since 2004 when I quit Yu-Gi-Oh! back when Ancient Sanctuary was the latest set release.
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Post by Guardman » 3 years ago

B&R Announcement: https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/a ... 2020-09-28

Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath is banned in standard.
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We've been keeping a close eye on the emerging Zendikar Rising Standard format over its first week of availability on Magic: The Gathering Arena and Magic Online. With millions of games having already been played on digital platforms, early data and results from events this past weekend have shown that multicolor ramp decks featuring Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath, Lotus Cobra, and Omnath, Locus of Creation are a problem in the new post-rotation metagame.

While Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath was a powerful and contentious card in the pre-rotation Standard environment, we wanted to allow the metagame to adapt to the last set of Standard changes and the imminent rotation before making a decision on whether to let it remain a part of the environment going forward. This weekend's events underscored that the Four-Color Omnath decks are dominating early play, and that even the decks built to try to beat those decks utilized the powerful titan.

In order to weaken these post-rotation ramp strategies, we're choosing to ban Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath in Standard. Our goal is to bring these decks down to a level where they are still appealing and competitive, but where natural metagame forces are enough to keep them in check. In general, we prefer this approach to overshooting the mark and removing an archetype from viability. However, we've certainly noted this weekend's strong results for the Four-Color Omnath deck and will continue to watch how that strategy and the overall metagame adjust in the coming weeks.

It's unusual for us to make a change this early into the season, but in this case we're targeting a card that has shown signs of being problematic in the past and which continued to display its dominance during events this past weekend. Additionally, the speed at which high-level digital play attacks new formats, particularly when digital play is the only high-level play available, means that metagames advance past the early stages far faster than they used to. We prefer to make this change now so that players can continue to get the most enjoyment out of post-rotation Standard, which is one of the most exciting times in Magic to explore and innovate.

Finally, I'd like to emphasize that for this B&R change our focus was primarily on Standard and Historic, with an eye for the upcoming 2020 Season Grand Finals. Changes to other formats, if needed, will be included in future updates.
Nothing surprising. Basically Uro is finally gone, but Omnath, Locus of Creation has been put on notice. And if he doesn't shape up soon and stop being so OP, he is going to be joining his friend Uro in the banned corner.

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Post by BeneTleilax » 3 years ago

At this point they should take a hard look at any pushed Simic cards. Green has gotten alarmingly versatile of late without paying any real costs for that versatility, while blue has historically had the widest section of the color pie. The normal restraints on card design don't really apply to this color combo, and the designers and developers have done a poor job restraining themselves in their absence.

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Post by Card Slinger J » 3 years ago

Last edited by Card Slinger J 3 years ago, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by RattingRots » 3 years ago

BeneTleilax wrote:
3 years ago
At this point they should take a hard look at any pushed Simic cards. Green has gotten alarmingly versatile of late without paying any real costs for that versatility, while blue has historically had the widest section of the color pie. The normal restraints on card design don't really apply to this color combo, and the designers and developers have done a poor job restraining themselves in their absence.
I strongly agree on the versatility/cost point, and I think to some extent all colors have had this issue. There's just little to no opportunity cost for a lot of the best standard cards over the past couple of years.

I was thinking when Once Upon a Time got banned, that broken cards nowadays are arguably more broken than some of the famously broken oldschool cards.

As an example, I don't think Vampiric Tutor is a well designed card at all - it is such a great catalyst to already broken decks and helps them do the most broken thing with too much consistency, but Vamp Tutor at least has a real cost to play and even in the most broken decks if you are low on cards and your opponent has an answer for each of your threats it can become a liability. I would actually say that a card like OUaT is more of a design failure than something like Vamp Tutor. The problem with something like OUaT is that it's basically never a bad card. It's a great card a large portion of the time and even when it's not great it's still above average.
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Post by Card Slinger J » 3 years ago

Banning just Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath will not weaken Four Color Omnath with Lotus Cobra and Genesis Ultimatum all that much while at the same time make other competitive decks that used to run Uro not viable. All this ban is going to do is increase domination for an already dominating deck in Standard. Remember that time when they banned Golos, Tireless Pilgrim and allowed Oko, Thief of Crowns to go rampant because Wizards of the Coast wanted to sell more boxes of Throne of Eldraine? Same case with Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath with Theros Beyond Death.

Are they even aware of what they're doing? Are they designing overpowered cards to ban on purpose? Are they playtesting cards ahead of time? They build, develop, and test expansions more than a year in advance so they had to of known that the current Standard meta would have Oko, Thief of Crowns, Omnath, Locus of Creation, Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath, Lotus Cobra, and Once Upon a Time. How did that even slip through?? If they were only looking to sell broken cards to eternal formats like EDH / Commander then they succeeded.
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Post by AvalonAurora » 3 years ago

Card Slinger J wrote:
3 years ago
Are they even aware of what they're doing? Are they designing overpowered cards to ban on purpose? Are they playtesting cards ahead of time? They build, develop, and test expansions more than a year in advance so they had to of known that the current Standard meta would have Oko, Thief of Crowns, Omnath, Locus of Creation, Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath, Lotus Cobra, and Once Upon a Time. How did that even slip through?? If they were only looking to sell broken cards to eternal formats like EDH / Commander then they succeeded.
They are not aware of what they are doing.

They don't playtest for how spikes play standard, from what I've heard out of some of their comments on playtesting. They instead test various theme decks, in often less-optimized forms, like various tribal decks or mechanics they've put in a set, like bonuses from cycling. They also often don't test at all cards that are added or modified late in development of a set. They also test random piles of jank they force into various themes and strategies, trying to make sure casual players who have limited access to rarer cards or complete playsets of even desired commons and uncommons are likely to be relatively even against each other if playing random different colors, testing things barely more refined than a limited deck.

They don't even understand a lot of theorycrafting, as from comments they've given has indicated things like not using Oko's elkification on both own and opposing permanents in testing.

They also don't seem to put serious effort into searching for combos they don't deliberately design into the set to test those.

There is also relatively little of actually testing full standard environments, over focusing on just a set or two near each-other with things like core set cards filling in some blanks. Nor do they test sets as much once they near completion, even in the context of future sets that will be in standard with them outside of deliberate mechanics that are shared between sets and the like.

Even the kind of stuff they do test, they don't test very well, as stuff like lucky clover getting through in it's current state proves, or how badly things like scute swarm tend to mess with their digital games.

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Post by Card Slinger J » 3 years ago

Does Wizards of the Coast actually collect tournament data results from Arena like they do in Paper Magic? That could be why they've been falling behind since the pandemic has made it impossible to run In-Person events for Standard and other competitive formats at Local Game Stores. I get that EDH / Commander is more popular than Standard but that's still no excuse for them not to pay attention with the ongoing problems of the format. If they want to fix Standard then bring the rotation system back to how it was originally before they changed it to how it is right now.

That way players complain less about cards getting rotated out too soon with less problematic cards disrupting the format that the company desperately relies on for Expected Value (EV) sales of Standard legal sets. Doing away with block sets was probably one of the worst things to happen to MTG. That's why we never got extra expansions for Throne of Eldraine where certain deck strategies could've received more support. Sure there's a good chance that we won't get any supplemental products for other formats but If that's the price the game is willing to take to help save itself then so be it.
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Post by AvalonAurora » 3 years ago

Card Slinger J wrote:
3 years ago
Does Wizards of the Coast actually collect tournament data results from Arena like they do in Paper Magic?
They do, but they have weird hang-ups about trusting digital magic results, and prefer to trust paper. They've referenced issues in BO1 competitive results in Arena as part of motivation for some modular card design and stuff, and I'm pretty sure I've seen other references to competitive data from Arena in things like ban discussions and other things, including articles about Arena itself, or about digital magic in general. They seem to have a thing, however, about trusting only Arena or MTGO data, and prefer to back it up with paper data for some reason. Possibly partly because of rules issues surrounding some things like combo loops that the digital games can't handle as well as paper and pacing aspects of how the digital games differ which makes what people play on digital somewhat different.

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