Hybrid mana

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Post by cryogen » 6 months ago

Well my argument in this thread and elsewhere is that the intent in EDH/Commander has always been that your deck is restricted to the colors of your general(s). So as long as the rules continue to define what color a card isnor color indicator it has (in the case of cards like Kobolds, Pacts, and the devoid mechanic), I don't think there is any discussion to be had. Because for me at least, every discussion is going to begin with "what did EDH intend to do", and then individual rules discussions will progress from there. So in the case of hybrid, you can argue that due to the intent we should allow off color cards, and while I don't disagree that you could, I think it hurts the idea of color identity and deck construction more than it helps any individual deck.

But no, I don't care about the fact that Wizards continues to evolve the color pie or create mistakes like Beast Within. And I don't care about arguing fully off color cards like Beseech the Queen or Birthing Pod, because the rule is working as it is supposed to. But the second we allow off color hybrid cards in decks because of "intent", I will argue until I'm blue to get rid of color identity altogether, because cards like Reanimate, Omniscience, Bolas' Citadel, Maelstrom Wanderer, etc. were all designed with the intent that I can play cards without being able cast them using the appropriate mana.
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Post by ISBPathfinder » 6 months ago

I am aware that there is like a 99% chance that it will never change. I am aware how the RC is against changing this. I am not asking for reanimator to have access to all colors it was just an off the top of my head suggestion that could maybe allow hybrid mana in. Honestly, I think most of the rules of commander are clunky and non intuitive so I don't really think its that hard to add a rule for hybrid mana but I also know that the RC doesn't want to and I know why they don't want to. None of these things are a surprise to me, its just a want of mine and it has been for years.
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Post by Yatsufusa » 6 months ago

ISBPathfinder wrote:
6 months ago
I am aware that there is like a 99% chance that it will never change. I am aware how the RC is against changing this. I am not asking for reanimator to have access to all colors it was just an off the top of my head suggestion that could maybe allow hybrid mana in. Honestly, I think most of the rules of commander are clunky and non intuitive so I don't really think its that hard to add a rule for hybrid mana but I also know that the RC doesn't want to and I know why they don't want to. None of these things are a surprise to me, its just a want of mine and it has been for years.
The problem is the cascading effect - it's not the exact wording/rules/chunkiness that really matters (as proven in this thread, we all can come up with all the necessary text), it's the intent behind it. It doesn't matter how we enable it, it matters why we enabled it and for Hybrid that the argument boils down to "design intent", which is basically countered by the reanimation argument.

Color Identity (rightfully) shows no favoritism towards any form of "design intent", even one that revolves around colors, because the comprehensive rules of the game itself (which determines base color, not identity) does not show favor either. Color Identity is first and foremost a rule built upon those comprehensive rules and the flavor is basically painted on to make it look prettier, not a "flavor-court" that is built upon "design intent", as the pretty paint might lead some to think.
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Post by Snes » 6 months ago

Yatsufusa wrote:
6 months ago
ISBPathfinder wrote:
6 months ago
I am aware that there is like a 99% chance that it will never change. I am aware how the RC is against changing this. I am not asking for reanimator to have access to all colors it was just an off the top of my head suggestion that could maybe allow hybrid mana in. Honestly, I think most of the rules of commander are clunky and non intuitive so I don't really think its that hard to add a rule for hybrid mana but I also know that the RC doesn't want to and I know why they don't want to. None of these things are a surprise to me, its just a want of mine and it has been for years.
The problem is the cascading effect - it's not the exact wording/rules/chunkiness that really matters (as proven in this thread, we all can come up with all the necessary text), it's the intent behind it. It doesn't matter how we enable it, it matters why we enabled it and for Hybrid that the argument boils down to "design intent", which is basically countered by the reanimation argument.

Color Identity (rightfully) shows no favoritism towards any form of "design intent", even one that revolves around colors, because the comprehensive rules of the game itself (which determines base color, not identity) does not show favor either. Color Identity is first and foremost a rule built upon those comprehensive rules and the flavor is basically painted on to make it look prettier, not a "flavor-court" that is built upon "design intent", as the pretty paint might lead some to think.
The problem with the reanimator argument is that it compares mechanical design intent (how the rules of the game allow a card to be played) with strategic design intent (how a card is expected to be played within the rules of the game). And there is plenty of precedent for the rules of Commander bowing to the mechanical design intent of a card.

Tell me: how many copies of a nonbasic card are allowed to be run in a Commander deck? Only one, right? Then why are there so many decks running over two dozen copies of Shadowborn Apostle? Because the card says that a deck can run any number of copies of cards named Shadowborn Apostle.

What card can you pick for your commander? Any legendary creature, right? Then why does EDHREC show almost a thousand decks that run Daretti, Scrap Savant as the commander? Because the card says that it can be run as your commander.

How many commanders does each deck have? Just one... unless you pick two creatures with partner, in which case two.

When these cards were introduced, the rules committee did not come down and say "Nope, not allowed, breaks the spirit of the format." I have to wonder: if hybrid mana was introduced today instead of thirteen years ago, would the rules committee stick to their guns and say "Nope, wrong color, can't play it" or would they have respected the mechanical design intent and allowed them to be included?

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Post by cryogen » 6 months ago

Snes wrote:
6 months ago
Yatsufusa wrote:
6 months ago
ISBPathfinder wrote:
6 months ago
I am aware that there is like a 99% chance that it will never change. I am aware how the RC is against changing this. I am not asking for reanimator to have access to all colors it was just an off the top of my head suggestion that could maybe allow hybrid mana in. Honestly, I think most of the rules of commander are clunky and non intuitive so I don't really think its that hard to add a rule for hybrid mana but I also know that the RC doesn't want to and I know why they don't want to. None of these things are a surprise to me, its just a want of mine and it has been for years.
The problem is the cascading effect - it's not the exact wording/rules/chunkiness that really matters (as proven in this thread, we all can come up with all the necessary text), it's the intent behind it. It doesn't matter how we enable it, it matters why we enabled it and for Hybrid that the argument boils down to "design intent", which is basically countered by the reanimation argument.

Color Identity (rightfully) shows no favoritism towards any form of "design intent", even one that revolves around colors, because the comprehensive rules of the game itself (which determines base color, not identity) does not show favor either. Color Identity is first and foremost a rule built upon those comprehensive rules and the flavor is basically painted on to make it look prettier, not a "flavor-court" that is built upon "design intent", as the pretty paint might lead some to think.
The problem with the reanimator argument is that it compares mechanical design intent (how the rules of the game allow a card to be played) with strategic design intent (how a card is expected to be played within the rules of the game). And there is plenty of precedent for the rules of Commander bowing to the mechanical design intent of a card.

Tell me: how many copies of a nonbasic card are allowed to be run in a Commander deck? Only one, right? Then why are there so many decks running over two dozen copies of Shadowborn Apostle? Because the card says that a deck can run any number of copies of cards named Shadowborn Apostle.

What card can you pick for your commander? Any legendary creature, right? Then why does EDHREC show almost a thousand decks that run Daretti, Scrap Savant as the commander? Because the card says that it can be run as your commander.

How many commanders does each deck have? Just one... unless you pick two creatures with partner, in which case two.

When these cards were introduced, the rules committee did not come down and say "Nope, not allowed, breaks the spirit of the format." I have to wonder: if hybrid mana was introduced today instead of thirteen years ago, would the rules committee stick to their guns and say "Nope, wrong color, can't play it" or would they have respected the mechanical design intent and allowed them to be included?
Ok, but EDH was fully a thing when all of these scenarios presented themselves (except for maybe not Relentless Rats), and the RC has consistently applied the rules: do what is in line with the rules of Magic. This is one of the reasons they did away with Rule 4 (off color mana generation), because it did something that was counterintuitive to players' expectations.

In the case of Rats, partners, and planeswalkers, the rules of Commander say "do X except when specific cards override X". Hybrid has never been any different, because mechanically the cards are always all of the colors in the cmc in every single zone. I don't see how they are "bowing to mechanical design intent".

Intent is a poor argument because it relies on having to know meta things that aren't applicable in game. If we were going off intent, then we should also make the Nephalm (too lazy to look up proper spelling) cycle legendary, because MaRo has said numerous times that he wished they had made them legendary creatures. It also creates situations where a player has to be explained why Worm Harvest is legal in someone's Omnath deck but they can't run Westvale Abbey in their Kaalia deck.
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Post by Snes » 6 months ago

cryogen wrote:
6 months ago
Ok, but EDH was fully a thing when all of these scenarios presented themselves (except for maybe not Relentless Rats), and the RC has consistently applied the rules: do what is in line with the rules of Magic. This is one of the reasons they did away with Rule 4 (off color mana generation), because it did something that was counterintuitive to players' expectations.

In the case of Rats, partners, and planeswalkers, the rules of Commander say "do X except when specific cards override X". Hybrid has never been any different, because mechanically the cards are always all of the colors in the cmc in every single zone. I don't see how they are "bowing to mechanical design intent".

Intent is a poor argument because it relies on having to know meta things that aren't applicable in game. If we were going off intent, then we should also make the Nephalm (too lazy to look up proper spelling) cycle legendary, because MaRo has said numerous times that he wished they had made them legendary creatures. It also creates situations where a player has to be explained why Worm Harvest is legal in someone's Omnath deck but they can't run Westvale Abbey in their Kaalia deck.
So your big sticking point is that hybrid costs are themselves colors outside the commander's color identity, and therefore should not be played, even if they can be paid using only mana from that color identity? That is an entirely arbitrary distinction, and it's not even one that is consistent with how Commander is played today. If a Commander deck is only supposed to contain cards that fit in the commander's color identity, why are artifacts allowed in anything but colorless decks? Your Rubinia deck runs Sol Ring, which is neither green, white, nor blue. How do you justify having a spell that isn't any of your commander's colors in your deck?

You're trying to find flaw in my argument by saying that it's not universally applicable, which is not the point I'm trying to make. We're not talking about Nephilim, we're talking about hybrid mana, and you don't need to go outside the game to find the intended function of hybrid mana because it's written right there on the card: this cost may be paid using mana of either color. Saying that the intention of the mechanic requires "meta knowledge" just makes you come across as willfully ignorant. Do you also insist that players play Snapcaster Mage only when they could cast a sorcery? Even though it has flash and the card says you can cast it anytime you could cast an instant, we don't know that Wizards intended it to break the normal timing restrictions for when creatures are played.

Also players can definitely run Westvale Abbey in their Kaalia deck right now, as Westvale Abbey is considered to be black and Kaalia is Mardu. And I think that color identity should only look at the costs of a card and not the colors, meaning Westvale Abbey would be permissible in any deck, so you're not going to win me over by bringing it up as a counter-point.

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Post by pokken » 6 months ago

Yeah color indicator is a bunch of crap imho :P But that's really a tangential thing.

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Post by Cow31337Killer » 6 months ago

cryogen wrote:
6 months ago
Well my argument in this thread and elsewhere is that the intent in EDH/Commander has always been that your deck is restricted to the colors of your general(s). So as long as the rules continue to define what color a card isnor color indicator it has (in the case of cards like Kobolds, Pacts, and the devoid mechanic), I don't think there is any discussion to be had. Because for me at least, every discussion is going to begin with "what did EDH intend to do", and then individual rules discussions will progress from there. So in the case of hybrid, you can argue that due to the intent we should allow off color cards, and while I don't disagree that you could, I think it hurts the idea of color identity and deck construction more than it helps any individual deck.

But no, I don't care about the fact that Wizards continues to evolve the color pie or create mistakes like Beast Within. And I don't care about arguing fully off color cards like Beseech the Queen or Birthing Pod, because the rule is working as it is supposed to. But the second we allow off color hybrid cards in decks because of "intent", I will argue until I'm blue to get rid of color identity altogether, because cards like Reanimate, Omniscience, Bolas' Citadel, Maelstrom Wanderer, etc. were all designed with the intent that I can play cards without being able cast them using the appropriate mana.
Design wise, I actually think it would make a lot of sense for hybrid cards to be allowed in decks that share only one color in them. Hybrid cards are designed so that the effect is within the limits of either of it's colors (and that's coming from Maro, the guy who helps design all of these cards in the first place). For example, Cold-Eyed Selkie|EVE would be able to be mono blue or mono green without moving outside the realm of what those colors are allowed to do. So if I were to put that card in my mono green deck, I wouldn't really be working with effects outside of my general's colors, because the card was designed to fit as either a mono blue or a mono green card. That's the cool thing about hybrid cards is that they highlight the overlapping effects of two different colors really well. Now, at the end of the day I don't really care too much that I can't put hybrid cards in mono color decks and all that but I just wanted to share my two cents. Basically, in terms of design I don't really think they would be breaking the spirit of using colors and effects in line with your commander's color identity.

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Post by Yatsufusa » 6 months ago

Snes wrote:
6 months ago
The problem with the reanimator argument is that it compares mechanical design intent (how the rules of the game allow a card to be played) with strategic design intent (how a card is expected to be played within the rules of the game). And there is plenty of precedent for the rules of Commander bowing to the mechanical design intent of a card.

Tell me: how many copies of a nonbasic card are allowed to be run in a Commander deck? Only one, right? Then why are there so many decks running over two dozen copies of Shadowborn Apostle? Because the card says that a deck can run any number of copies of cards named Shadowborn Apostle.

What card can you pick for your commander? Any legendary creature, right? Then why does EDHREC show almost a thousand decks that run Daretti, Scrap Savant as the commander? Because the card says that it can be run as your commander.

How many commanders does each deck have? Just one... unless you pick two creatures with partner, in which case two.

When these cards were introduced, the rules committee did not come down and say "Nope, not allowed, breaks the spirit of the format." I have to wonder: if hybrid mana was introduced today instead of thirteen years ago, would the rules committee stick to their guns and say "Nope, wrong color, can't play it" or would they have respected the mechanical design intent and allowed them to be included?
Shadowborn Apostle, Daretti* and Partners* all invoke Clause 101.1, Hybrid Mana doesn't.
101.1. Whenever a card's text directly contradicts these rules, the card takes precedence. The card
overrides only the rule that applies to that specific situation. The only exception is that a player can
concede the game at any time (see rule 104.3a).
*Technically the walkers and partners now invoke Clauses 903.3a and 702.123a respectively, but for simplicity's sake I'd say those were created out of 101.1 for clarification to begin with.

Hybrid Mana Symbols in determination of Color (and thus Color Identity) follows the entirely of Clause 202.2, specifically 202.2d, and therefore cannot invoke 101.1.
202.2d An object with one or more hybrid mana symbols and/or Phyrexian mana symbols in its
mana cost is all of the colors of those mana symbols, in addition to any other colors the object
might be. (Most cards with hybrid mana symbols in their mana costs are printed in a two-tone
frame. See rule 107.4e.)
My main point is, the comprehensive rules went out of the way to redefine the texts to fit the design intent of those examples, but didn't do so for Hybrid Mana and since the rules of format were built upon those comprehensive rules, they follow likewise.
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Post by cryogen » 6 months ago

Snes wrote:
6 months ago
cryogen wrote:
6 months ago
Ok, but EDH was fully a thing when all of these scenarios presented themselves (except for maybe not Relentless Rats), and the RC has consistently applied the rules: do what is in line with the rules of Magic. This is one of the reasons they did away with Rule 4 (off color mana generation), because it did something that was counterintuitive to players' expectations.

In the case of Rats, partners, and planeswalkers, the rules of Commander say "do X except when specific cards override X". Hybrid has never been any different, because mechanically the cards are always all of the colors in the cmc in every single zone. I don't see how they are "bowing to mechanical design intent".

Intent is a poor argument because it relies on having to know meta things that aren't applicable in game. If we were going off intent, then we should also make the Nephalm (too lazy to look up proper spelling) cycle legendary, because MaRo has said numerous times that he wished they had made them legendary creatures. It also creates situations where a player has to be explained why Worm Harvest is legal in someone's Omnath deck but they can't run Westvale Abbey in their Kaalia deck.
So your big sticking point is that hybrid costs are themselves colors outside the commander's color identity, and therefore should not be played, even if they can be paid using only mana from that color identity? That is an entirely arbitrary distinction, and it's not even one that is consistent with how Commander is played today. If a Commander deck is only supposed to contain cards that fit in the commander's color identity, why are artifacts allowed in anything but colorless decks? Your Rubinia deck runs Sol Ring, which is neither green, white, nor blue. How do you justify having a spell that isn't any of your commander's colors in your deck?

You're trying to find flaw in my argument by saying that it's not universally applicable, which is not the point I'm trying to make. We're not talking about Nephilim, we're talking about hybrid mana, and you don't need to go outside the game to find the intended function of hybrid mana because it's written right there on the card: this cost may be paid using mana of either color. Saying that the intention of the mechanic requires "meta knowledge" just makes you come across as willfully ignorant. Do you also insist that players play Snapcaster Mage only when they could cast a sorcery? Even though it has flash and the card says you can cast it anytime you could cast an instant, we don't know that Wizards intended it to break the normal timing restrictions for when creatures are played.

Also players can definitely run Westvale Abbey in their Kaalia deck right now, as Westvale Abbey is considered to be black and Kaalia is Mardu. And I think that color identity should only look at the costs of a card and not the colors, meaning Westvale Abbey would be permissible in any deck, so you're not going to win me over by bringing it up as a counter-point.
(Yeah, the Westvale Abbey mistake was pointed out to me, I don't know why I had it in my head that Kaalia wasn't black. You get where I was going though, even if you disagree.)

No, my sticking point is that a) from a rules standpoint Worm Harvest IS a green and black card at every natural point in the game, and no amount of hand waving or intent can change that, and b) from day One of the format, even before it had a proper name, you could ONLY run cards that were the color of your general. Running off color hybrid cards is a fundamental format rules change. Artifacts have no color identity because "colorless" isn't a color, so I don't know what you're trying to prove there.

I also don't understand the point about Snapcaster timing. I'm not giving scenarios where you can't do X even though the card says you can. The color identity rule in Commander is a deck building rule that supersedes game play. It says "you can run Worm Harvest in your Lord Windgrace deck, but not Spitting Image" and then if during the game you draw WH, the card works exactly as it was designed to and you can pay double green OR double black, OR green and black. That is exactly how the card was designed.
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Post by cryogen » 6 months ago

Cow31337Killer wrote:
6 months ago
cryogen wrote:
6 months ago
Well my argument in this thread and elsewhere is that the intent in EDH/Commander has always been that your deck is restricted to the colors of your general(s). So as long as the rules continue to define what color a card isnor color indicator it has (in the case of cards like Kobolds, Pacts, and the devoid mechanic), I don't think there is any discussion to be had. Because for me at least, every discussion is going to begin with "what did EDH intend to do", and then individual rules discussions will progress from there. So in the case of hybrid, you can argue that due to the intent we should allow off color cards, and while I don't disagree that you could, I think it hurts the idea of color identity and deck construction more than it helps any individual deck.

But no, I don't care about the fact that Wizards continues to evolve the color pie or create mistakes like Beast Within. And I don't care about arguing fully off color cards like Beseech the Queen or Birthing Pod, because the rule is working as it is supposed to. But the second we allow off color hybrid cards in decks because of "intent", I will argue until I'm blue to get rid of color identity altogether, because cards like Reanimate, Omniscience, Bolas' Citadel, Maelstrom Wanderer, etc. were all designed with the intent that I can play cards without being able cast them using the appropriate mana.
Design wise, I actually think it would make a lot of sense for hybrid cards to be allowed in decks that share only one color in them. Hybrid cards are designed so that the effect is within the limits of either of it's colors (and that's coming from Maro, the guy who helps design all of these cards in the first place). For example, Cold-Eyed Selkie|EVE would be able to be mono blue or mono green without moving outside the realm of what those colors are allowed to do. So if I were to put that card in my mono green deck, I wouldn't really be working with effects outside of my general's colors, because the card was designed to fit as either a mono blue or a mono green card. That's the cool thing about hybrid cards is that they highlight the overlapping effects of two different colors really well. Now, at the end of the day I don't really care too much that I can't put hybrid cards in mono color decks and all that but I just wanted to share my two cents. Basically, in terms of design I don't really think they would be breaking the spirit of using colors and effects in line with your commander's color identity.
[/quClone, At this point I am convinced that the only reason MaRo refuses to like the rule despite the RC explaining it to him till they were blue in the face is that it points out his design failure that the rules don't support actually making the card only the color(s) of the actual mana used to cast it. And I'd like to point out that despite the intent of each color individually being able to do what the card does, there have been color pie breaks like Spitting Image giving mono green a clone or mono white extra combat steps with whatever that card is (forgive me, it's 4am).
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Post by Snes » 6 months ago

cryogen wrote:
6 months ago
(Yeah, the Westvale Abbey mistake was pointed out to me, I don't know why I had it in my head that Kaalia wasn't black. You get where I was going though, even if you disagree.)

No, my sticking point is that a) from a rules standpoint Worm Harvest IS a green and black card at every natural point in the game, and no amount of hand waving or intent can change that, and b) from day One of the format, even before it had a proper name, you could ONLY run cards that were the color of your general. Running off color hybrid cards is a fundamental format rules change. Artifacts have no color identity because "colorless" isn't a color, so I don't know what you're trying to prove there.

I also don't understand the point about Snapcaster timing. I'm not giving scenarios where you can't do X even though the card says you can. The color identity rule in Commander is a deck building rule that supersedes game play. It says "you can run Worm Harvest in your Lord Windgrace deck, but not Spitting Image" and then if during the game you draw WH, the card works exactly as it was designed to and you can pay double green OR double black, OR green and black. That is exactly how the card was designed.
My point about colorless spells is that the philosophy behind the current color restriction rule isn't consistent. If the goal is to limit each commander to their own colors, then colorless spells should be disallowed in non-colorless decks as they are by definition none of the commander's colors. The actual philosophy seems to be "Commander decks should have no cards that are a color outside the commander's color identity," which only makes sense if your goal from the outset was to restrict how hybrid-mana cards are played to be in direct contrast with how they're played everywhere else in Magic (unless they were especially worried about the format-warping power of Transguild Courier.

I propose that the philosophy should be "Commander decks should have no mana costs that can't be paid using colors of mana in the commander's color identity." This keeps the intended restriction of making the commander's colors matter, without arbitrarily shutting out hybrid costs.
cryogen wrote:
6 months ago
At this point I am convinced that the only reason MaRo refuses to like the rule despite the RC explaining it to him till they were blue in the face is that it points out his design failure that the rules don't support actually making the card only the color(s) of the actual mana used to cast it. And I'd like to point out that despite the intent of each color individually being able to do what the card does, there have been color pie breaks like Spitting Image giving mono green a clone or mono white extra combat steps with whatever that card is (forgive me, it's 4am).
Maro dislikes the rule because it flies in the face of the intended game play of the cards for no clear reason.

If we're banning cards because they violate the color pie, then when is the RC coming for Chaos Warp and Beast Within? And green does occasionally get clone effects (Bramble Sovereign) and white does occasionally get extra combat steps (Finest Hour). If you want a hybrid mana card that clearly breaks the color pie, look at Augury Adept; it's a white creature that repeatedly draws you cards, and a blue creature that gains you life.

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Post by cryogen » 6 months ago

Snes wrote:
6 months ago
cryogen wrote:
6 months ago
(Yeah, the Westvale Abbey mistake was pointed out to me, I don't know why I had it in my head that Kaalia wasn't black. You get where I was going though, even if you disagree.)

No, my sticking point is that a) from a rules standpoint Worm Harvest IS a green and black card at every natural point in the game, and no amount of hand waving or intent can change that, and b) from day One of the format, even before it had a proper name, you could ONLY run cards that were the color of your general. Running off color hybrid cards is a fundamental format rules change. Artifacts have no color identity because "colorless" isn't a color, so I don't know what you're trying to prove there.

I also don't understand the point about Snapcaster timing. I'm not giving scenarios where you can't do X even though the card says you can. The color identity rule in Commander is a deck building rule that supersedes game play. It says "you can run Worm Harvest in your Lord Windgrace deck, but not Spitting Image" and then if during the game you draw WH, the card works exactly as it was designed to and you can pay double green OR double black, OR green and black. That is exactly how the card was designed.
My point about colorless spells is that the philosophy behind the current color restriction rule isn't consistent. If the goal is to limit each commander to their own colors, then colorless spells should be disallowed in non-colorless decks as they are by definition none of the commander's colors. The actual philosophy seems to be "Commander decks should have no cards that are a color outside the commander's color identity," which only makes sense if your goal from the outset was to restrict how hybrid-mana cards are played to be in direct contrast with how they're played everywhere else in Magic (unless they were especially worried about the format-warping power of Transguild Courier.
"Say it with me, 'colorless isn't a color!'" - Mark Rosewater, like 50 million times.

And again, for the last time, the actual philosophy is the same as it has ALWAYS been: to restrict decks to only cards within the color identity of the general. We saw it in the very beginning of the format when the rule was that the mana symbols of the general's cmc defined legality and you looked at mana symbols on the card (which is why you couldn't run Islands in your Jund deck despite basic lands being colorless). Then the rule was expanded to look at all the mana symbols on the card, legalizing Bosh and friends. And then it was further expanded to look at color indicators, which I believe takes us to the present. But at absolutely no point in that history was there EVER the goal of restricting hybrid cards. The RC made the determination that the simplest course of action was to make them work exactly like the rules intuitively make them work: Spitting Image has both blue AND green mana symbols, therefore it can only be played in blue AND green decks. "How they're played in other formats" is completely irrelevant, unless you think that every deck running Gitaxian Probe and Mental Misstep were also running Islands.
I propose that the philosophy should be "Commander decks should have no mana costs that can't be paid using colors of mana in the commander's color identity." This keeps the intended restriction of making the commander's colors matter, without arbitrarily shutting out hybrid costs.
Cool, I can now play Pact of the Titan in my monoblue Hive Mind deck. And here comes mono green Kobolds! Ridiculous examples? Absolutely. But the point is that you're sacrificing a clean rule for one with conditions just for the sake of replacing one "arbitrary" rule with another that is actually arbitrary because it is based in the opinion that something should be allowed. What IS arbitrary is the color identity rule as a whole, because Commander is the only format which has it. No other format cares if I reanimate Iona without running Plains, or run Birthing Pod without Forests. Hell, I could show up to a Modern event running a deck with 24 Wastes and 36 morph creatures I randomly pulled out of a box. But the color identity rule is one of the foundations of the format and EXTREMELY unlikely to change, so you'll have to present a better argument than "but other formats get to do it".
cryogen wrote:
6 months ago
At this point I am convinced that the only reason MaRo refuses to like the rule despite the RC explaining it to him till they were blue in the face is that it points out his design failure that the rules don't support actually making the card only the color(s) of the actual mana used to cast it. And I'd like to point out that despite the intent of each color individually being able to do what the card does, there have been color pie breaks like Spitting Image giving mono green a clone or mono white extra combat steps with whatever that card is (forgive me, it's 4am).
Maro dislikes the rule because it flies in the face of the intended game play of the cards for no clear reason.
There is a very clear reason, one which has been explained to him numerous times. He just doesn't like the reason.
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Post by pokken » 6 months ago

Mana symbols in the rules text is a very important part of color identity IMHO.

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Post by Legend » 6 months ago

Snes wrote:
6 months ago
I propose that the philosophy should be "Commander decks should have no mana costs that can't be paid using colors of mana in the commander's color identity." This keeps the intended restriction of making the commander's colors matter, without arbitrarily shutting out hybrid costs.
I actually love the idea of differentiating between generic mana 1 and colorless mana c for the purposes of "color" identity.

As for hybrid cards being usable in decks without their full color identity... no. That's a terrible idea for every reason that's been stated. It's a move in the wrong direction for a format that derives a significant portion of its inalienable identity within the concept of color identity. Anyone who wants to move away from clear color identities in Commander simply doesn't want Commander and needs to go make their own format.
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Post by Snes » 6 months ago

cryogen wrote:
6 months ago
"Say it with me, 'colorless isn't a color!'" - Mark Rosewater, like 50 million times.

And again, for the last time, the actual philosophy is the same as it has ALWAYS been: to restrict decks to only cards within the color identity of the general. We saw it in the very beginning of the format when the rule was that the mana symbols of the general's cmc defined legality and you looked at mana symbols on the card (which is why you couldn't run Islands in your Jund deck despite basic lands being colorless). Then the rule was expanded to look at all the mana symbols on the card, legalizing Bosh and friends. And then it was further expanded to look at color indicators, which I believe takes us to the present. But at absolutely no point in that history was there EVER the goal of restricting hybrid cards. The RC made the determination that the simplest course of action was to make them work exactly like the rules intuitively make them work: Spitting Image has both blue AND green mana symbols, therefore it can only be played in blue AND green decks. "How they're played in other formats" is completely irrelevant, unless you think that every deck running Gitaxian Probe and Mental Misstep were also running Islands.
So colorless is "within" the color identity of colored commanders? Why? Sol Ring shares no colors with Rubinia.

The RC absolutely set out to restrict hyrbrid cards because they defined color identity in such a way that it restricted the use of hybrid cards. The entire concept of color identity and how it relates to the color of cards is something entirely made-up by the RC. Hybrid cards didn't fit with their vision for the format, so they didn't accommodate them. As you just pointed out, the definition of color identity has changed multiple times. It can definitely change again. Arguing that Spitting Image shouldn't be run in Omnath because it's also blue is effectively saying that it shouldn't be allowed because it's not currently allowed.
cryogen wrote:
6 months ago
Cool, I can now play Pact of the Titan in my monoblue Hive Mind deck. And here comes mono green Kobolds! Ridiculous examples? Absolutely. But the point is that you're sacrificing a clean rule for one with conditions just for the sake of replacing one "arbitrary" rule with another that is actually arbitrary because it is based in the opinion that something should be allowed. What IS arbitrary is the color identity rule as a whole, because Commander is the only format which has it. No other format cares if I reanimate Iona without running Plains, or run Birthing Pod without Forests. Hell, I could show up to a Modern event running a deck with 24 Wastes and 36 morph creatures I randomly pulled out of a box. But the color identity rule is one of the foundations of the format and EXTREMELY unlikely to change, so you'll have to present a better argument than "but other formats get to do it".
Pact of the Titan has a colored cost on it, so no, you can't run it in any non-red deck under my proposed philosophy. Kobolds, sure, go nuts.

Matching how the mechanic is played in other formats is not a valueless goal. When new players join the format, they typically expect the rules to be the same until told otherwise. I've personally seen multiple new Commander players (not new to Magic, just to the format) who had to be told after-the-fact that the hybrid-mana card they pulled for their deck can't be run in it. Serge Yager with LoadingReadyRun, who has been playing Magic for well over a decade, has on multiple occasions included Kitchen Finks in a green or white deck.

What's more, it would let players play with more cool cards they enjoy. When the hybrid-mana planeswalkers were previewed in War of the Spark, the Reddit thread for each one included at least one highly-voted comment bemoaning the fact that they were two colors ("Kiora would be perfect in my Tatania deck, shame I can't run her" "If only Nahiri was mono-red, then I could run her in Locust God and go infinite with Skull Clamp"). The number of cards with hybrid-mana costs is only going to go up as the years go on, and every time a new cool hybrid-mana card comes out, we'll be hearing the same complaints every single time, because players look at hybrid-mana costs and they see the decks that can't run them instead of the decks that can.

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Post by Legend » 6 months ago

Snes wrote:
6 months ago
*snip*
What makes it acceptable to include Godhead of Awe in a mono white Commander deck but not to include Absorb and Mortify in the same deck?
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Post by MRHblue » 6 months ago

Snes wrote:
6 months ago
So colorless is "within" the color identity of colored commanders? Why? Sol Ring shares no colors with Rubinia.
Because, as has been explained more than once, its not 'within'. ColorLESS has no color, and this is a restriction on allowed color. Failure to grasp that concept at this point is willful misrepresentation of facts.
Matching how the mechanic is played in other formats is not a valueless goal. When new players join the format, they typically expect the rules to be the same until told otherwise. I've personally seen multiple new Commander players (not new to Magic, just to the format) who had to be told after-the-fact that the hybrid-mana card they pulled for their deck can't be run in it. Serge Yager with LoadingReadyRun, who has been playing Magic for well over a decade, has on multiple occasions included Kitchen Finks in a green or white deck.
They don't understand the CI rule, and that is an issue. But its not like their mis-view is more intuitive, its actually LESS. The current rule is simple and direct. Yes people make mistakes, but thats not because the rule is too complex.
What's more, it would let players play with more cool cards they enjoy. When the hybrid-mana planeswalkers were previewed in War of the Spark, the Reddit thread for each one included at least one highly-voted comment bemoaning the fact that they were two colors ("Kiora would be perfect in my Tatania deck, shame I can't run her" "If only Nahiri was mono-red, then I could run her in Locust God and go infinite with Skull Clamp"). The number of cards with hybrid-mana costs is only going to go up as the years go on, and every time a new cool hybrid-mana card comes out, we'll be hearing the same complaints every single time, because players look at hybrid-mana costs and they see the decks that can't run them instead of the decks that can.
Yes and people would LOVE to run Phyrexian Metamorph in a ton of non-blue decks. Thats not how the format works. Yes it is an arbitrary decision, and the rule has been changed over time to be more inclusive, but this one just does not make any sense. Cool flavorful restrictions are a core of this format, they don't need to be homogenized because some people think it would be cool

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Post by pokken » 6 months ago

Legend wrote:
6 months ago
Snes wrote:
6 months ago
*snip*
What makes it acceptable to include Godhead of Awe in a mono white Commander deck but not to include Absorb and Mortify in the same deck?

This one is easy. Can you cast Absorb with white mana?

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Post by cryogen » 6 months ago

pokken wrote:
6 months ago
Legend wrote:
6 months ago
Snes wrote:
6 months ago
*snip*
What makes it acceptable to include Godhead of Awe in a mono white Commander deck but not to include Absorb and Mortify in the same deck?

This one is easy. Can you cast Absorb with white mana?
I can if I also run Celestial Dawn, which is intended to let me run off color cards without needing to also run the associated lands.
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Post by pokken » 6 months ago

cryogen wrote:
6 months ago
pokken wrote:
6 months ago
Legend wrote:
6 months ago

What makes it acceptable to include Godhead of Awe in a mono white Commander deck but not to include Absorb and Mortify in the same deck?

This one is easy. Can you cast Absorb with white mana?
I can if I also run Celestial Dawn, which is intended to let me run off color cards without needing to also run the associated lands.
The issue with this logic is it can be applied to the current color identity rule and the proposed hybrid mana change equally, which should make it implicitly obvious why it's not applicable.

Cards with two different color mana symbols are different from hybrid cards in the same way that they differ from cards that currently fit within a color identity (they can't be paid for completely, including all activation costs, by mana in the commander's color identity).

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Post by cryogen » 6 months ago

pokken wrote:
6 months ago
cryogen wrote:
6 months ago
pokken wrote:
6 months ago



This one is easy. Can you cast Absorb with white mana?
I can if I also run Celestial Dawn, which is intended to let me run off color cards without needing to also run the associated lands.
The issue with this logic is it can be applied to the current color identity rule and the proposed hybrid mana change equally, which should make it implicitly obvious why it's not applicable.

Cards with two different color mana symbols are different from hybrid cards in the same way that they differ from cards that currently fit within a color identity (they can't be paid for completely, including all activation costs, by mana in the commander's color identity).
And yet, they are exactly the same in the sense that they don't conform to the color identity.

You also conveniently ignore Beseech the Queen which CAN be paid for completely using mana within a commander's color identity no matter what deck it's included in.
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Post by pokken » 6 months ago

I have acknowledged previously that twobrid mana would need a small adjustment.

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Post by MRHblue » 6 months ago

pokken wrote:
6 months ago
I have acknowledged previously that twobrid mana would need a small adjustment.
That seems like a poor justification to play cards you want.

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Post by pokken » 6 months ago

I don't honestly feel like I need a lot of justification for a preference. Because color identity and mana production rules have gone through a number of changes I think the key arguments should be less rules driven and more about whether it's a net positive for the format.

I do think restrictions can breed creativity but I also think we'd see a lot of interesting things happen in one and two color decks that would be worth the rules difficulties.

I don't see any philosophical issues with stopping at allowing hybrid mana as proposed. Most of the arguments like phyrexian and twobrid -- well, they're red herrings because no one asked for those things to.be legal and quirks can be ironed out.

Would it make the format more fun?

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